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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote FishMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Secrecy!
    Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 12:53pm
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Secrecy is an interesting thing. I'm never too sure whether to be in favour of it or not. I can fully understand not disclosing specific locations on the internet, but it can get a bit beyond that where any information relating to good fishing events in great locations is withheld and only shared privately with trusted friends.
 
Somehow I'm reminded of a foster kid I had to try and entertain as a ten year old. The poor kid had had such a tough life that all he could do was guard his precious pile of toys from any other kids. Of course we all wandered off and left him to his toys.
 
Similarly, I met a fly fisher recently who had some hot ray-rider action totally sussed near Hamilton. The only way I figured it was near Hamilton was that was where he lived. He was quite open about the fact he was not going to let another soul anywhere near his precious kingfish. Somehow I was left with the same vision of that foster boy guarding his toys in the corner.
 
So yeah, secrecy is one thing, but sharing the excitement is pretty good too.
 
And yes, this post has been motivated by some secret squirrel activities going on lately. Some snippets of information slipping through about red hot fishing and quite profound action happening in a certain location. But, at the end of the day you get the feeling that those in-the-know want to keep it quiet for as long as possible.
 
Maybe they're just being sensible?
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 1:45pm
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I know what you mean Craig.  Its one I struggle with a lot.  Im defiantly someone that wants to tell all keen fishoes about the hot action iv been having at a particular spot as I want others to enjoy the great time iv been having.  

On the other had a few years ago i was quite liberal with info as I felt nothing should be secret.  Well a particular river that I had fished and pulled lots of good fish out of without seeing another sole, i spilled the beans on with to a few others.    

Well the following season I went to fish that beloved section of stream only to count 28 anglers fishing a section of river less than 1km long.   The fish took such a hiding that iv since seen very few fish in that river.  Not sure if that's a climatic thing or a fishing pressure but you have to wonder.

Long and short of it im not too phased about freely giving out info about the better known spots, but these days there are a few spots that I fish on my own and tell no one about as I dont want to have the place turned into a shopping center on a Saturday morning.  Besides most of those places are tiny wee creeks that just cant take the pressure of many anglers. 

That been said, saltwater is quite a bit different to fresh in that the fish in a river don't tend to roam so much hey?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FISHBYFLY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 5:22pm
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A few factors involved.IMHO
 
1. Commercial[guided], all guides have and seek spots that fish well.
Its basiccly the biggest factor in there success and good referals.
 
2.Other fisherman,wether they be Fly, Lure , bait,  etc.
these shallow areas are so sensitive,and lets face it the majority will be there to gather,
wouldn't take much to ruin agood shallow spot.
 
3.Solitude, the majority of fishbums ive met all agree the biggestdraw,
 
Frasers comments are quite showing,
Pressure.
 
The risks and simularitys of a small stream to a shallow salt waterway are very much the same.
 
were all **** scared of places we hold dear disappearing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Troutzilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 5:51pm
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An interesting topic... I was always a bit secretive about freshwater spots as they often have small numbers of resident, pressure sensitive fish. However if I knew the anglers well enough and knew they would respect the intell and not thrash the water I would share the love.

Theres nothing wrong with holding a few spots close to your chest, especially if you have spent plenty of time and effort recceing the area. These spots are to be enjoyed with closest fishing buddies.

If you have found a spot which is reasonably easily accessed and you choose to share it on the internet I doubt you can expect the fishing there to get any better!

The other issue with sharing spots is that while we choose to fish with flies - arguably making the process as technically skillful as possible, if bait fishermen start fishing your spot they will undoubtably make a dent in the fish population.
It aint no use if it aint chartreuse!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 6:12pm
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Keep them to yourselves lads. You take the time and effort to learn each area if someone does it of their on accord fine but you don't have to be too friendly with info if asked. I know I have denied others what I have actually caught on a certain day. Besides half the fun is learning.  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kalgrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 6:20pm
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Fraser,

We had a similar situation here in Perth last year, but it was a saltwater fishery.

In 2009, I discovered a lot of good snapper hiding in one location and let a few of my kayaking friends know about it. For 5 years, we kayakers had it pretty much to ourselves, and even though there were more of us fishing it, we managed to keep a lid on things.

Then last year, one of those kayakers published the location on facebook, plus some boat users also did some digging and did the same. "Where are these kayakers catching their snapper?"

By the end of the season, we had well over 100 boats lined up in the area and the kayakers were essentially crowded out of a spot we had considered "our own" by a couple of self-aggrandising twits. That crowding out and over fishing could be directly traced back to me sharing the spot personally with half a dozen kayakers in 2009.

Consequently, I now no longer share my spots with others who are not of the same mind. It's a same, because I learnt a lot from those I was sharing with.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Millsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 8:02pm
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+1 for Muppets FBF and Fraser. 

I am reminded of a story of a well known NZ trout guide who had discovered a stretch of an NZ river which held good trophy browns. He only guided American trout fishers to the location for years, with good reason. No one ever gave the game away. When he finally retired and disclosed the location to kiwi's it was ruined within 6 months. Some say the Ruakatori River bares a similar story. 

That is trout fishing with all the protection and rules that fresh water has by default i.e most is fly only.

To give away spots in the salt is total madness. There are no fly fishing only salt locations and certainly no "catch and release" salt areas in NZ. We [NZ] are miles behind the rest of the world in that regard. We are an apathetic bunch who take. Look at the Abel Tasman beach saga which was resolved recently. Now a public owned beach thanks to bidding by the public who actually managed to get off their arse due to some media coverage and raise over 2 mil. While an organisation such as LegaSea which is the ONLY vehicle for looking out for ALL fisherman in NZ only managed around $400K out of 600,000 NZ fishers. We would rather have one beach than a fishery?

I digress. 

If you are referring to the South Island revolution Craig [and for NZ fly fishing as a destination it is just that], the secret is well and truly out. It is just that none of those guys spend time with this forum which is bundled in with general "gear" fishing. It is all over other social media and already on a few "Fly FIshing ONLY" forums in Europe and will likely be making an appearance in the biggest fly fishing publication in Australasia soon. It is truly a NZ first and anyone who claims to have done this to this level, it simply talking out of their behind and likely nursing a wounded ego by now. How long will it last? With no protection and NZ being the red neck nation that it is with regards to it's fishery, I give it half a century and it's over. What the south island needs is some Auckland based commercial fisherman to sort those huge schools of kahawai out for starters, only takes them a summer around here to rid us of the greatest sport fish in the world.

The good news for all those SI kings in that location for now [and the tally is now likely over 100 in what amounts to a weeks fishing] is that they are ALL still swimming around and could be caught again. That is the culture of fly fishing, what it offers a fishery and the economy. Different game, different motives. One is all about the fish the others mostly all about the "fisherman", like so much of the typical salt fishing style in NZ.

I have seen what happened here after the VHS Greentide was released in 1992. Within a couple of weeks, every stickbaiter this side of the black stump turned up to fish the "poles". The original "star" of that show witnessed one boat at the closest boat ramp come back to shore with 7 kings and 3 anglers, all very proud of themselves. It is a kiwi thing, catch a big fish, kill it to show your mates then "feed the neighbors" to somehow justify the whole experience. The ITM westcoaster of 2015 was the epitome of that culture out here.

So yeah, keep your secrets tight boys and die with them. For the sport to grow in NZ needs some serious legislation change.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FishMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 8:13pm
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Yeah, I think it comes down to how you treat the internet from the outset. I'm now very careful about what is in the background of fish pics and never publicly describe the exact location. However, I'm happy to talk about the general location (eg Parengarenga Harbour). If people want to do the hard yards and figure it our from there then good on them.
 
What we do see on the net sometimes is people giving too much away while exploring a new fishery and then going into total secret squirrel mode when they realise the fishing is too good to share publicly.
 
As said - being careful from the start and, of course, never divulging someone else's spot, would have to be standard rules in this electronic age.
 
I think if people are careful then we will get to hear more about the fishing that is going on, as it progresses in these locations, rather than suffer total secrecy shut-downs.
 
Kalgrm - I fully understand your pain there. Not a lot of easy to reach snapper water in Perth and the so-called friend should have respected the privacy of the info.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FishMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2016 at 8:14pm
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Millsy,
You posted in front of me by a couple of minutes.
Fully agree.
I think as we all become better electronic media users we'll think about 'levels of disclosure' first and then be able to talk about the fishing in a generalised location without fear of half of London being there tomorrow.
 
I've made quite a few mistakes myself - there is now a heavy trade in new immigrant families accessing the rock platforms I used to guide off and the location I caught my big snapper at has had at least two film crews go there - even though we made the massive effort of flipping over the video LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dan19585 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 8:11am
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I always question peoples motives in these instances.
These guys aren't posting this stuff all over social media to help out fellow fishermen, or promote the sport. They are doing it for self promotion and aggrandization, and to keep sponsors happy.
Those fish there aren't a new thing, if its the same spots I think it is. I heard of guys catching them on spin gear almost 20 yrs ago. A mate and me had a look there with our fly rods when we were passing through 15yrs back, but tides/conditions were not good.
And now they are posting of using a 6wt. Please, give the fish more respect than that....
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FishMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 9:00am
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And a bunch of crazy Polynesians found NZ long before Captain Cook (or that funny Dutch fella)... Smile
 
I don't think who discovered what is the issue here. I'd like to see salt fly fishing news reports- especially when it involves incredibly hot action like has been happening down south- posted up for all to read- but the problem with moron fish killers using this info to their own ends is really going to stop that.
 
And yes- I have heard the arguments about this board and the quantity of 'non-fly fishing' types lurking in the shadows, but I don't think fly fishers can exist as an exclusive club or secret society.
 
The way it is with social media any posting anywhere (and any magazine article) is eventually going to invite all the flies to the party.
 
My opinion is that we should live with the forum that has the broadest reader base and widest reach and instead install some fairly strict protocols on photo use and spot description. Even to the point of perhaps having an editor for trip reports.
 
That way a lot more people can get to hear about the action and ongoing news as it happens.
 
My thoughts anyway.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote upstream Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 9:30am
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Mmm, I can't help wondering about that Hamilton spot now Craig. Tongue
It must be one of the 3 harbours. Must get there soon...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fishwhisperer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 9:43am
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Some points in reply to the post by Millsy:
 
For me it is always a 50/50 call. Try to prevent overcrowding at a good spot, share that spots success with my mates. In the end I tend to go with Craigs comments. Give a general area but not down to the last gps point. (easy for me as I don't have a gps Smile) .  Also, most of my spots require an intimate knowledge of the sea floor and just where to anchor, 15 meters out and you will catch only weed.
 
We are Apathetic but the 'Beach' is probably not a good analogy. They raised $2.2M out of 4.4m people, about $0.50 each. Legasea raised $400k out of 600k of fishers, about $0.75 each. (But yes, still way to low.)
 
Re catch and release - I know that it works in some other countries and in some cases spectacularly so. 
However I believe most strongly that introducing catch and release areas here in NZ, particularly in the salt, will backfire and bite us all in the arse.
The peta people out there, and their numbers are growing rapidly, already look at anglers as cruel and evil people, but they have always been defeated here in NZ by the attitude of the NZ public that fishing for the table is ok. Make salt areas catch and release and you remove that protection and we become in many non fishers eyes 'Blood Sport' monsters, up there with English Fox Hunts and Big Game hunters. Torturing fish for our own entertainment.
The argument used will be that those fishing for the table it really is all about the fish, but those fishing only for the 'fun' it really is all about the fisherman.
Lose the public support and we are stuffed.
 
Finally, I think that in the spirit of full disclosure, I am not a salt water flyfisher.....yet.
 
I tried it 25 years ago but to no avail, but back then there was no fishing.net from which to learn.
I am looking at a Redington 10 - 12 wt combo, but still in need of funds. Crowd funding anyone. Big smile.
 
Cheers
Duncan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Millsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 10:04am
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Fair calls.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 10:06am
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Originally posted by Kalgrm Kalgrm wrote:

Fraser,

We had a similar situation here in Perth last year, but it was a saltwater fishery.

Oh dont worry I know all about that situation Graeme.   I lived in Perth for many years and sat on the board of RFW .   Say hello to Ross & Ongie for me next time you see them, although I heard Ross has moved away from Perth these days?  Im surprised we never met considering the circles we moved in?

Ah Autumn on its way in Perth.  Nearly time for Salmon coming up from Albany and big longtail and yellowfin tuna schools busting up around 3 mile reef??   Enjoy my friend. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote m.d.hoffman@xtra.co.nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 4:35pm
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The answer is to tell everyone you had great fishing at Meola Reef - then watch the crowds arrive - NOT!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote m.d.hoffman@xtra.co.nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 4:46pm
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More seriously, I remember reading an article on Starlo's site about some "guru" swoffer somewhere in Oz who was sort off Jedi of fly fishing for bream, even night fly fishing for them. He was happy enough to let on about his success, even write articles, but was totally mum not only about locations but also his techniques. In a real sense it's a loss for the swoffing community that with such people the knowledge they have gained through hard effort no doubt could end up going to the grave with them.
There's hopefully a middle ground where those in the know can share the wealth with others without the fear of the vandal hordes descending upon their beloved locations.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FISHBYFLY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 5:27pm
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Yip shes a tricky one,
 
But it seems the one thing we all agree on is after the time and effort we put in to suss out our spots, wed be stupid to reveal there locations online.
 
I must admit [as Craig has] of maybe advertedly revealing to much in the past.
and wondered why others are so tigt lipped.
Tho to be honest my actions were best intended , ie wanting to see others enjoy the fun.
Possibly naieve,
Now wiser.
 
The Journey continues. 
 
Great thread Craig,
Seems to be some wise jokers out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote m.d.hoffman@xtra.co.nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 6:52pm
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One of the tricks I've learned is that there's one way to virtually guarantee you can have even the most popular spot to yourself - go there on a week day!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote RC17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2016 at 8:17pm
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I would be a hypocrite if I saod I wasn't for the sharing of info as I am on this site and others / fbook groups. But lately, as I've watched these groups grow, I cant help but wonder if the information on them makes everyone a 20% better fisherman 500% quicker, what that does to fish stocks / pressure etc. Social media jas completely changed the game for intel. I literally have seen posts from guys who have been on the water for a couple of hours and havent caught jack, only to post to facebook and virtually be guided onto a spot and take home their limit. That fisherman likely would have blanked if not for that intel....

Im all for sharing basic spots, entry level stuff, or anything re: tackle, but why on earth would you pass on 10 years of info just so 100 other guys can rain on your parade, after all isnt fishing about exploration and earning your rewards?
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