which knot palomar or uni

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    Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 4:15pm
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so me and my brother are both very keen fisherman
I love my uni for almost everything back to back from braid to mono single uni for attaching terminal tackle

brother uses a Palomar knot he reckons its stronger than a uni and easier and quicker to tie than a uni (which he used to use)

I was bored and I sat down and learned the Palomar 1st try its very easy and probably quicker than uni to tie

but which is truly the stronger knot?
keep up the good work boys
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catchelot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 4:57pm
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I prefer the uni which in reality is a hangman's noose and also the locked blood knot.

Yes the palomar is easy to tie but I doubt its the strongest, only tests with recordeable scales will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sappercatcha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 5:12pm
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according to the cheap wherehouse knot book I happened to have it rates the Palomar at 95% strength and the uni at about 80% what I can find on the web seems to back this up but your right tests will tell
keep up the good work boys
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 5:35pm
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Very much depends on the size / type ans number of turns as per previous ....
 The place I use a polmar is to tie clip onto the trace end of long lines after the hook has been snelled.. it makes it very easy to get the correct length to clip the traces into the frame.
 In my book for general non top end off shore marlin fishing ids the FG..
Which if follow book instruction becomes very fiddly and long to tie.
With the rod in the holder, bit of brake on the reel....briad tag twisted over the little and next finger so doesnt slip...
And your foot holding the trace line/ spool on the floor.
Both tight.. simply twist the trace in figure 8 s around the braid ....16 20 times.. what ever one prefers
 un wrap the braid from your fingers , quick 1/2 hitch around the tag end of the trace.. pull tight...another to follow around tag and biaid... then a finish knot.
Basically a 2 or 3 thru surgeons tight trim , except around the loop side , not the braid/ trace side.. pull tight trim both tags flush.
Advantage is that when casting there is no trace end to clip the guides .. and a FG is one of the few that is 100%
The other is bimmini twist....which is also excellent for braid to braid cats pawed between the loops.....and swivels / clips catspawed to the end of the briad

Again quick to do using the rod holder.
 loop around couple fingers, plenty of tag end... twist up 24/ 30 times.. hold the tag end down, open your fingers.. the tag twists down over your orginal twists....quick 1/2 hitch either side of the loop, and a finish knot as above around both sides of the loop..
put the loop thru your clip/ swivel.. a d finger in the lop either side and turn the clip thru the lops either side  3 / 4 times .. pull down even.. theres your cat paw
 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 6:12pm
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I've done some tests with a line tester and what I've found is that most knots are variable in strength for most people. Some can tie consistent knots while others can't. There are too many variables IMO to say any one knot is better than another.

The knot that really surprised me with its strength was the figure 8 loop knot. If you work out how to tie it well it is a very strong knot and it is literally impossible to find an easier knot to tie.

I think understanding what makes a knot fail is an important concept to grasp.
Best gurnard fisherman in my street
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 8:12pm
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I recon Smudge sums it up really well.
not just the type diameter, number turns combined.. but who, brand makes all sorts of differences
 I set up a basic test bench on my old myford lathe bed messed around also.
Then throw in stuff like, hook quality.. how the eye is formed against the shaft..how many ppl actually take note which side of the join they take a snell type knot around ..then blame a the knot or trace.
One just has to do a google.. forget opinions, but where tests have actually been done.. and the differences and conclusions...
Bottom line thu.. lets say we run a 20lb   (or whatever) trace  and thats the 'weakest link'   and lets say someone ties a 80% knot  someone else a 90%  one knot will give at 18lb the other at 16lb... either way both will land 20lb plus snap unless they just cave man winch knowing they dont have 90lb line...

What I did find thu, is be careful where the main line taking the strain is held at 90 deg ... as in a whipping type knot.
Mono / furo etc take a lot of weight, then if backed off a little and brought on the main line up or the loop inside the knot holding it  gets 'cut'.. that tends to happen when one gets close to limits of the gear.

And the reson why I tend to go to more platted type knots like fg bimimi , catspaw concepts
And one very simple knot that really surprises me to this day is the simple 3 times surgeons loop knot.
 Top of a trace.. hooked onto a clip at the bottom of the main line.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ET487 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 8:54pm
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"In my book for general non top end off shore marlin fishing is the FG"
Steps do you mean that the FG knot are not good enough for marlin fishing Please explain that.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Metal Float Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 9:10pm
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I also agree with Smudge - learning to tie a not well seems to make the biggest difference for me. FG is my goto ... I've lost some good fish not `tightening' the knot enough.

Saffayakker - shell I put up the video of you teaching others to tie an FG? lol 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sappercatcha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 9:46pm
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I geuss the other factor is that if you set your rod and reel up correctly your drag should be set at only a small %of your breaking strain lets say max 20% (I know there are times when you need to push it but I'm talking generally here snapper fishing and the likes)
so lets say you have a knot with 80% strength when tied correctly
and your drag is set at 20% of your line test weight you have lots of room for error

ill probably stick with the uni as I can tie it with my eyes shut anyway the amount of them ive tied probably numbers in the millions and I have never had a knot fail on a fish well not for years anyway
keep up the good work boys
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kaveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 9:47pm
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palomar is a stronger knot than a uni but not by that much, maybe 10% but you should always tie the knot you are most confident in tying

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Geoff Wilson, in one of his knot books points out that a lot of these claimed knot strengths in percentages are erronius because people are comparing a breaking test of the knot to a claimed line strength without first testing the line.
For example if testing a knot in 20lb line and finding it breaks at say 18lb, gives a figure of 90% whereas if the line test gave a result of say 24lb, then the 18lb knot only has 75% strenght not 90%.
This is even more true for a lot of braid knots since the breaking strain is often very understated.
There are two types of people in the world: those that divide people into two types and those that don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 10:01pm
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I doubt anyone can tie a knot that consistently breaks at the same percentage of line weight. Maybe some can but in my experiments I have found a difference between knots and it's hard to judge if a knot is going to be really good or not until you test it. If you can get one within 10% of all the others I think you would be doing exceptionally well.
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Originally posted by Metal Float Metal Float wrote:

I also agree with Smudge - learning to tie a not well seems to make the biggest difference for me. FG is my goto ... I've lost some good fish not `tightening' the knot enough.

Saffayakker - shell I put up the video of you teaching others to tie an FG? lol 
Better not Andrew. Too many beers in that video. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 10:31pm
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Uni and palomar both good for terminal tackle, swivels etc. I use the uni as it's one I know and can tie anywhere, anytime regardless of circumstances. FG is my go to for braid to leader. 

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In my book for general NON top end off shore marlin fishing is the FG"
Steps do you mean that the FG knot are not good enough for marlin fishing Please explain that.

 I dont do marlin, big heavy trace nor have tied  them.. There are other threads in these forms that cover/ debate, discuss these including PR and crimping stuff.
I read with interest but have no personal experience therefore why

And something have also played with...wetting/ lube when tighten.. I have found no difference between pulling a knot up tight slow so it can form up well and lube it.
Those who heat/ melt the tag back.. if you burn the end of your fingers doing so, protecting the rest of the filament.. fine  If you dont burn your fingers, the heat off he flame will degrade the knot leading to failure.
I have found that using a 'finish knot' 1/2 hitch with the tag 2 or 3 times around its self rather the main line part.. then cut that flush works far better... if the tag slips thru , then t has to do a couple more times before even getting to the main knot
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Metal Float Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 10:26am
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Steps: you're right that this thread started with the question about whether uni or palomar but it is legit to suggest alternatives without highjacking the thread.

Saffayakker: I think you must have just got lucky (again) using a FG on that 235lb blue yesterday. Tin arse! 
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Originally posted by sappercatcha sappercatcha wrote:

so me and my brother are both very keen fisherman
I love my uni for almost everything back to back from braid to mono single uni for attaching terminal tackle

brother uses a Palomar knot he reckons its stronger than a uni and easier and quicker to tie than a uni (which he used to use)

I was bored and I sat down and learned the Palomar 1st try its very easy and probably quicker than uni to tie

but which is truly the stronger knot?


easy to test this for the sake of your argument. you tie a uni knot in one end of a piece of line to something and your brother ties something on the other end with his palomar. you pull for a break. repeat for a best of three. loser buys the beers Smile 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 2:06pm
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Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by sappercatcha sappercatcha wrote:

so me and my brother are both very keen fisherman
I love my uni for almost everything back to back from braid to mono single uni for attaching terminal tackle

brother uses a Palomar knot he reckons its stronger than a uni and easier and quicker to tie than a uni (which he used to use)

I was bored and I sat down and learned the Palomar 1st try its very easy and probably quicker than uni to tie

but which is truly the stronger knot?


easy to test this for the sake of your argument. you tie a uni knot in one end of a piece of line to something and your brother ties something on the other end with his palomar. you pull for a break. repeat for a best of three. loser buys the beers Smile 


I like your work Booshie Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 6:35pm
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The video above is the real hard and slow way to tie a FG..
 a 24/ 20 loop as I description ave done in around 55/60 secs.. not including the optional final finish knot...add 5/10sec

We tend to test/ measure our knots with simply putting an increasing constant strain.....in practice its constant IF the rod is kept bent, but not consistent...espec say a snapper shaking its head.. that jerking puts a different strain on different knots.
Twanging the line while under test sort of dupicates the effect.

Had a spool of a  very common well know brand 20lb fluro that had a high fail a while back.. was sent off for testing came back tested ok for thickness and strain... And tested a little low when I did so. That spool spool when only around 70% and twanged failed most of the time at the top of the knot....the other spool same brands and another brand passed nps
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OuttaHere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 10:17pm
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If I have a while to tie the knot and I care about it's strength then I use an AG chain knot. Leaves Palomar and Uni (and any other knot where the loaded line is anything but completely straight) for dead.
For general purpose stuff I tend to tie a 6-turn uni, locked blood knot for sinkers cos I can tie one in 5 seconds and who cares if its a bit weak.
Braid to mono, fg all day every day. Though I should probably get a bobbin and learn the PR.
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