Kina in your finger?

Page  123>
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Spearomedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kina in your finger?
    Posted: 11 May 2015 at 1:16pm
Spearomedic View Drop Down
Bronze
Bronze


Joined: 11 May 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 9
G'day, I'm a doctor working in auckland area, and keen diver.

I'd like to get a bank of knowledge together about marine injuries, especially affecting freedivers
This thread is dedicated to Kina spikes 

There is nothing in the medical literature about NZ kina spikes, ie what toxins are in them, how the body reacts to them, the best way to surgically deal with them. 

Let me know about any troubles you've had with Kina, where you got stuck by one, how you or doctors treated it, or if its still in there! 

My hypothesis is that the body can break down the spikes gradually, and that they have an irritating toxin in them which causes a reaction and often infection too, and probably thats what makes them particularly sore (especially in fingers.)

I'd be especially interested If you went and had an xray or ultrasound or a doctor fished it out
Comments about snapper spines, morrays and cray spines also useful.

Cheers

Spearomedic
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lethal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 2:15pm
Lethal View Drop Down
Rest In Peace
Rest In Peace
Avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: In our thoughts
Status: Offline
Points: 23636
kina spins just keep going deeper until they hit bone if left under the skin, my mate stood on one, put him out of commission for 3 weeks, they certainly hurt and grabbing them with tweezers is useless they just break up, so best they be dug out.

another one of my mates had one shaft of a 5 shaft pronger enter the soul of his foot about midday and out the front of his big toe, he left his gun on the floor, as the boat was gunned forward he slid down onto the pronga,
we unscrewed the spear from the head and cut the barb off, 
carried him to the doc's,
by this time the mussels had grabbed the shaft too tightly to remove without a lot of pain even with all the area numbed,
the Doc put our mates heel on the edge of chair tied a heavy cord onto the bass of the pronga the loose line then ran down to 10 inches from the floor then back up again to a heavy piece of wood to which the cord was tied onto, while holding the wood securely 
the doc started talking to our mate when his attention had moved away from the pronga the Doc slammed his foot down on the cord, hey presto out it popped,

some of you Doctors are pretty smart...
   

  
Thanks for everything you did for us Eric. may you rest in peace, You were one of the real legends of NZ recreational fishing
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Terrapin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 3:09pm
Terrapin View Drop Down
Silver
Silver


Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 427
You often get them in your finger smashing up kina for burley. Hard to get out with a needle and tweezers because they often get pushed in deep. They tend to get infected quite quickly and in 2 or 3 days they are much easier to get out with the pressure of the pus build up.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote red rooster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 4:38pm
red rooster View Drop Down
Silver
Silver


Joined: 07 Feb 2014
Location: wellington
Status: Offline
Points: 154
i have got bits in my hand at the moment that have been in there for about 3 years
some come out buy themselves . they are not sore anymore
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grasshoppa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 4:42pm
Grasshoppa View Drop Down
Gold
Gold
Avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Wellington
Status: Offline
Points: 559
i've had kina spikes in my shins etc from diving, strangely they don't hurt/get infected as badly here as elsewhere, to the point i've 'found' them weeks later when rubbing legs etc
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Diver Dan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:26pm
Diver Dan View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 7412
I worked as a commercial kina diver for 7 years. Most kina spines cause no problems, and as said before, best to leave them a couple of days - they get slightly infected and then pop out. Better than probing and breaking them into smaller pieces. They don't krrp migrating in general - unlike fish spines that do. 
The only bad thing with kina spines is when the get into the joint - that is bad. They are also very hard to locate. After 12 years of no kina diving, the hundreds of scars have finall started to disappear. Knees were pretty shocking.
Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote NumnuT_AUS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:27pm
NumnuT_AUS View Drop Down
Gold
Gold


Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 681
Originally posted by Terrapin Terrapin wrote:

You often get them in your finger smashing up kina for burley. Hard to get out with a needle and tweezers because they often get pushed in deep. They tend to get infected quite quickly and in 2 or 3 days they are much easier to get out with the pressure of the pus build up.
 x 2
 
had a kina spike break off in corner of the fingernail, broke off inside, no chance to pull out with anything.  Got bloody sore & infected, worked itself free after about a week, with instant releif after it was out.
 
really carefull and wear thick diving gloves now, not bare hands!
 
kina taste OK, but much prefer to let the big snapper eat them in burley trail!
 
Craig
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Unclejake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:51pm
Unclejake View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Location: Wellington
Status: Offline
Points: 8114
I drove one in underneath a fingernail, right down to past the cuticle.
 
It was visible through the fingernail and took four months and one day (I think) to come out, but it only came out as the finger nail grew and dragged it out. It didn't fester, but was very painful if I banged the fingernail (standard foreign object behaviour I guess)
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dan V Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 6:12pm
Dan V View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2012
Location: Wellys
Status: Offline
Points: 120
I have a friend who is a comm diver down south, had to get some spines surgically removed from his foot after months of issues. If you're keen to contact him, hit me up with a private message and I can flick you his number
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote i-spear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 6:34pm
i-spear View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2014
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Points: 119
I just get a slightly raised lump for a month, but no pain. 

I have heard horror stories about those black ones though. Apparently they are like hypodermic needles and go straight through gloves and get infected every time.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Cigar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 6:51pm
Cigar View Drop Down
Gold
Gold
Avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Location: Hamilton, NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 685
I stabbed my finger on a snapper spine while scaling a fish, hurt quite a bit, but for days afterwards every time I knocked the last joint on my finger I had a sharp pain, even putting my hand in my pocket made me wince. I decided some of the spine must be in my finger so went to the doctor, he had a quick look from a distance and did nothing.
Once I got home, I reckoned when I pushed hard on the bottom of the joint I could just feel something solid at the top - some home surgery with nail clippers resulted in me pulling a 10mm spine out of my finger joint (still have the spine in a container somewhere). No sign of infection, but hurt like hell when touched - but only at the top of the finger (where it went in) even though the spine was sitting right thru the joint almost to the bottom of my finger
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FishMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 7:59pm
FishMan View Drop Down
Moderator - Brown Belt
Moderator - Brown Belt
Avatar

Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Location: Bay of Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 5756
Had lots. Remove them by stabbing them on either side with two hypodermic needles and levering them out.

Unfortunately the tip sometimes breaks off and requires more digging to get out.

Took a larger spine stuck close to a finger joint to A & E. They were going to admit me and take it out in theatre! I protested so instead had a series of student doctors digging in my finger. After about the tenth student the finger was a bleeding pulpy mess when someone who knew what they were doing turned up and took it out after about one minute of looking. 

I find the spines go septic quickly and would never leave them.

Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 8:26pm
waynorth View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Location: Kerikeri
Status: Offline
Points: 1456
Dropping a sack of kina on a neoprene-booted foot isn't smart. The spines snap off level with the outside of the bootie, leaving you with the problem of working out how to get the bootie off. Yep - Green River to the rescue.
 
The spines are hard and sharp enough to punch through the plastic of a fish bin, but they are brittle, and the toxin seems to act as a muscle contractant. Trying to dig them out immediately seldom worked if they were in muscle or flesh, they just broke up unless you let the flesh rot around them for a couple of days.
 
If you are researching toxin, check out the dorsal spines on a granddaddy hapuku - weapons grade.
treat fish like fish
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote laminar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:17pm
laminar View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 128
Dunno that they have much in the way of small molecule chemical toxins  in them, but they swell a bit after a couple of days as above. They come out easy enough with a hypodermic needle once they've swelled a bit. The swelling could be an infection but I always wondered about a direct immune response. There are a lot of proteins involved in biomineralisation that end up incorporated in structures like kina spikes, I'd wager they'd be immunogenic. Have heard of people getting sensitised from things like snapper spikes so might be something in it.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Diver Dan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:19pm
Diver Dan View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 7412
I never was sensitised by kina spines, but I know others who are
Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kaveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:44pm
kaveman View Drop Down
Forum Sponsor
Forum Sponsor
Avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Location: Whangamata
Status: Offline
Points: 9731
Mate had his arm removed last year after becoming infected with a snapper spike. PM if you need to talk to him
www.kavemantackle.co.nz
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Spearomedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:47pm
Spearomedic View Drop Down
Bronze
Bronze


Joined: 11 May 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 9
@craig
Oh no, I hope I wasn't one of those students!!

So the thing I'd like to know is whether their tendency to go septic relates to unusual marine bacteria that our bodies aren't as used to fighting
or if the kina causes a chemical / toxin-mediated response in the tissues which then leads to an aggressive infection.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Spearomedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:49pm
Spearomedic View Drop Down
Bronze
Bronze


Joined: 11 May 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 9
@kaveman, dan v
I don't have any ethics approval yet to contact actual patients but may do soon, thanks
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Spearomedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:54pm
Spearomedic View Drop Down
Bronze
Bronze


Joined: 11 May 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Diver dan
So do you mean you don't get much of a reaction when you get one in you? Whereas you think others get an impressive one?
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Spearomedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:03pm
Spearomedic View Drop Down
Bronze
Bronze


Joined: 11 May 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Grasshoppa
So have you also had them in ur hands and get the septic festering and pain like the rest of us?
Can't be fun when they hit the shin bone? (Too much weight belt perhaps..?!)
Back to Top
Page  123>
Forum Jump
Forum Permissions View Drop Down


This page was generated in 1.008 seconds.

Fishing Reports Visit Reports

Saltwater Fishing Reports
Hauraki Gulf Fishing Report - 10/01/25

Diverse fishing options The summer snapper are prolific and feeding well, yet a summer slowdown... Read More >

10 Jan 2025
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Inner Hauraki Gulf Fishing Report - 10/01/25

Strong winds means options have all been inshore The plan for Boxing Day was to... Read More >

10 Jan 2025
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Top of the South Fishing Report - 10/01/25

Moving into good fishing Happy New Year everyone, I hope you have all had a... Read More >

10 Jan 2025
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Bream Bay Fishing Report - 10/01/25

Holiday fishing fickle Fishing in the Bream Bay/Whangarei Harbour/Mangawhai area over the holiday period can... Read More >

10 Jan 2025
Fishing bite times Fishing bite times

Major Bites

Minor Bites

Major Bites

Minor Bites