Kina in your finger?
Printed From: The Fishing Website
Category: Diving
Forum Name: Spearo's Corner
Forum Description: Free-divers & spearos chat about their sport
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=109075
Printed Date: 03 Feb 2026 at 2:25pm
Topic: Kina in your finger?
Posted By: Spearomedic
Subject: Kina in your finger?
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 1:16pm
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G'day, I'm a doctor working in auckland area, and keen diver. I'd like to get a bank of knowledge together about marine injuries, especially affecting freedivers This thread is dedicated to Kina spikes There is nothing in the medical literature about NZ kina spikes, ie what toxins are in them, how the body reacts to them, the best way to surgically deal with them. Let me know about any troubles you've had with Kina, where you got stuck by one, how you or doctors treated it, or if its still in there! My hypothesis is that the body can break down the spikes gradually, and that they have an irritating toxin in them which causes a reaction and often infection too, and probably thats what makes them particularly sore (especially in fingers.) I'd be especially interested If you went and had an xray or ultrasound or a doctor fished it out Comments about snapper spines, morrays and cray spines also useful. Cheers Spearomedic |
Replies:
Posted By: Lethal
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 2:15pm
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kina spins just keep going deeper until they hit bone if left under the skin, my mate stood on one, put him out of commission for 3 weeks, they certainly hurt and grabbing them with tweezers is useless they just break up, so best they be dug out. another one of my mates had one shaft of a 5 shaft pronger enter the soul of his foot about midday and out the front of his big toe, he left his gun on the floor, as the boat was gunned forward he slid down onto the pronga, we unscrewed the spear from the head and cut the barb off, carried him to the doc's, by this time the mussels had grabbed the shaft too tightly to remove without a lot of pain even with all the area numbed, the Doc put our mates heel on the edge of chair tied a heavy cord onto the bass of the pronga the loose line then ran down to 10 inches from the floor then back up again to a heavy piece of wood to which the cord was tied onto, while holding the wood securely the doc started talking to our mate when his attention had moved away from the pronga the Doc slammed his foot down on the cord, hey presto out it popped, some of you Doctors are pretty smart... ------------- Thanks for everything you did for us Eric. may you rest in peace, You were one of the real legends of NZ recreational fishing |
Posted By: Terrapin
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 3:09pm
| You often get them in your finger smashing up kina for burley. Hard to get out with a needle and tweezers because they often get pushed in deep. They tend to get infected quite quickly and in 2 or 3 days they are much easier to get out with the pressure of the pus build up. |
Posted By: red rooster
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 4:38pm
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i have got bits in my hand at the moment that have been in there for about 3 years some come out buy themselves . they are not sore anymore
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Posted By: Grasshoppa
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 4:42pm
| i've had kina spikes in my shins etc from diving, strangely they don't hurt/get infected as badly here as elsewhere, to the point i've 'found' them weeks later when rubbing legs etc |
Posted By: Diver Dan
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:26pm
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I worked as a commercial kina diver for 7 years. Most kina spines cause no problems, and as said before, best to leave them a couple of days - they get slightly infected and then pop out. Better than probing and breaking them into smaller pieces. They don't krrp migrating in general - unlike fish spines that do. The only bad thing with kina spines is when the get into the joint - that is bad. They are also very hard to locate. After 12 years of no kina diving, the hundreds of scars have finall started to disappear. Knees were pretty shocking. ------------- Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club |
Posted By: NumnuT_AUS
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:27pm
had a kina spike break off in corner of the fingernail, broke off inside, no chance to pull out with anything. Got bloody sore & infected, worked itself free after about a week, with instant releif after it was out.
really carefull and wear thick diving gloves now, not bare hands!
kina taste OK, but much prefer to let the big snapper eat them in burley trail!
Craig
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Terrapin wrote:Posted By: Unclejake
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:51pm
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I drove one in underneath a fingernail, right down to past the cuticle. It was visible through the fingernail and took four months and one day (I think) to come out, but it only came out as the finger nail grew and dragged it out. It didn't fester, but was very painful if I banged the fingernail (standard foreign object behaviour I guess)
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Posted By: Dan V
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 6:12pm
| I have a friend who is a comm diver down south, had to get some spines surgically removed from his foot after months of issues. If you're keen to contact him, hit me up with a private message and I can flick you his number |
Posted By: i-spear
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 6:34pm
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I just get a slightly raised lump for a month, but no pain. I have heard horror stories about those black ones though. Apparently they are like hypodermic needles and go straight through gloves and get infected every time.
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Posted By: Cigar
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 6:51pm
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I stabbed my finger on a snapper spine while scaling a fish, hurt quite a bit, but for days afterwards every time I knocked the last joint on my finger I had a sharp pain, even putting my hand in my pocket made me wince. I decided some of the spine must be in my finger so went to the doctor, he had a quick look from a distance and did nothing. Once I got home, I reckoned when I pushed hard on the bottom of the joint I could just feel something solid at the top - some home surgery with nail clippers resulted in me pulling a 10mm spine out of my finger joint (still have the spine in a container somewhere). No sign of infection, but hurt like hell when touched - but only at the top of the finger (where it went in) even though the spine was sitting right thru the joint almost to the bottom of my finger
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Posted By: FishMan
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 7:59pm
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Had lots. Remove them by stabbing them on either side with two hypodermic needles and levering them out. Unfortunately the tip sometimes breaks off and requires more digging to get out. Took a larger spine stuck close to a finger joint to A & E. They were going to admit me and take it out in theatre! I protested so instead had a series of student doctors digging in my finger. After about the tenth student the finger was a bleeding pulpy mess when someone who knew what they were doing turned up and took it out after about one minute of looking. I find the spines go septic quickly and would never leave them. |
Posted By: waynorth
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 8:26pm
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Dropping a sack of kina on a neoprene-booted foot isn't smart. The spines snap off level with the outside of the bootie, leaving you with the problem of working out how to get the bootie off. Yep - Green River to the rescue. The spines are hard and sharp enough to punch through the plastic of a fish bin, but they are brittle, and the toxin seems to act as a muscle contractant. Trying to dig them out immediately seldom worked if they were in muscle or flesh, they just broke up unless you let the flesh rot around them for a couple of days. If you are researching toxin, check out the dorsal spines on a granddaddy hapuku - weapons grade. ------------- treat fish like fish |
Posted By: laminar
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:17pm
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Dunno that they have much in the way of small molecule chemical toxins in them, but they swell a bit after a couple of days as above. They come out easy enough with a hypodermic needle once they've swelled a bit. The swelling could be an infection but I always wondered about a direct immune response. There are a lot of proteins involved in biomineralisation that end up incorporated in structures like kina spikes, I'd wager they'd be immunogenic. Have heard of people getting sensitised from things like snapper spikes so might be something in it. |
Posted By: Diver Dan
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:19pm
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I never was sensitised by kina spines, but I know others who are ------------- Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club |
Posted By: kaveman
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:44pm
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Mate had his arm removed last year after becoming infected with a snapper spike. PM if you need to talk to him -------------  www.kavemantackle.co.nz
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Posted By: Spearomedic
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:47pm
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@craig Oh no, I hope I wasn't one of those students!! So the thing I'd like to know is whether their tendency to go septic relates to unusual marine bacteria that our bodies aren't as used to fighting or if the kina causes a chemical / toxin-mediated response in the tissues which then leads to an aggressive infection. |
Posted By: Spearomedic
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:49pm
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@kaveman, dan v I don't have any ethics approval yet to contact actual patients but may do soon, thanks |
Posted By: Spearomedic
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:54pm
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Diver dan So do you mean you don't get much of a reaction when you get one in you? Whereas you think others get an impressive one? |
Posted By: Spearomedic
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:03pm
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Grasshoppa So have you also had them in ur hands and get the septic festering and pain like the rest of us? Can't be fun when they hit the shin bone? (Too much weight belt perhaps..?!) |
Posted By: Spearomedic
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:14pm
Do u get that lump from just a stab wound or a spine. Spine comes out or dissolves? |
Posted By: Spearomedic
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:18pm
When you got it out was the spine just as normal? Or softer/ partially degraded etc |
Posted By: TheSnapperWhisperer
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:28pm
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I had a Kina spine in my ankle, very sore, had X-ray which didn't seem to show much, but dr Gerald young dug out a tiny speck of Kina from my tendon casing. Fixed the pain so I was stoked. Just last yeAr he did a different tube fixing operation. Now I shoot blanks. Ha ha ha ha! Happy to release medical records if they still have them. Of the Kina spine, at least! ------------- http://www.facebook.com/TheSnapperWhisperer |
Posted By: Diver Dan
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:28pm
I don't tend to react much to anything, and I heal quickly. I have had spines come out after a month or two, and they certainly have lost their colour, and maybe have degraded a bit. I have a snapper spine in my arm that has been there for nearly 20 years. Catches from time to time. ------------- Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club |
Posted By: Hammy
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 8:05am
| I stood on one surfing in raglin. It was right in my heel and I couldn't weight bear. I couldn't get it out with scalpel and tweezers from the local pharmacy so ended up in Auckland central A&R where they gave be a local and sliced my heel open to fish out a 10mm spike.got it out within 4hrs so no infection but bloody hurt when weight bearing because of the location. |
Posted By: i-spear
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 9:00am
I had just a stab on my hand. But I once had a spike in my knee which I couldn't get out. After a few days it just disappeared. I may have less of a reaction than others because for the last two years I have been getting bee venom desensitization and I always take antihistamines before I dive (Being hours away from the nearest hospital and all). I don't carry a EpiPen - even though I should. The antihistamines could well be suppressing a larger reaction.
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Posted By: Unclejake
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 2:35pm
Wrt Dr Gerald Young TSW: Assuming he's an Asian NZer who's about 50 now - I met him once when I had a meningitis scare (which killed the guy I was with three days prior). That was a good wile ago, probably 1990. Nice to hear he's still about.
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Posted By: Glaucus
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 3:25pm
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Hands and feet. Especially as a kid running around on the reef all the time. Never had them badly infected enough to go to a Dr. Either tweezers if the end was accessible or the tried and true jelly from flax plant as a natural poultice that draws out the spine.
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Posted By: Glaucus
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 3:36pm
| Spearomedic.... Just out of interests sake have you done any research/ investigating into the bacteria that causes black rot/ tail fan necrosis in crays? Vibrio vulnificus, V. alginolyticus etc and how it affects people or how to test for it at all? Cheers |
Posted By: Newsmurf
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 9:04pm
Wanna rephrase that? ------------- I'd rather dive than breathe. |
Posted By: 1Daz
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 9:19pm
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I had a kina spike in the palm of my right hand, I tried to get it out at the time but it was to deep and forgot about it for about 6 months, Then it pussed up and came to the surface by it self. Same thing happened with a snapper spike in the middle finger on my right hand but took 2 years to come to the surface. ------------- Go the Warriors! |
Posted By: TheSnapperWhisperer
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 10:28pm
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Newsmurf, this is an inclusive forum. Blokes he's been with are his own business. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/TheSnapperWhisperer |
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 8:06am
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Used to get a few kina spines years back....so long as they are not serious deep, as mentioned, dont go digging, they break up and end up in a mess... Leave and they pus up and pop out a few days later. Snapper spines, a deep spine up under my thumb nail pre Xmas, nearly grown out. Expected to loose the nail, fine, just damn sore doing some things... found snapper, mullet, KY gurnard spines not to bad either. One may also not as to ones septabilty to turning bad may have a relationship as to ones occupation, espec if mechanic or use oils, kero etc....it seems these occupations/ hobbies infection in the hands is rare it if does minor.. and the rest of the body also dramatically reduced. Which comes back to a old school and vert effective bush 1st aid.. a deep cut, or spine.. pour kero in, or wash well with it... KERO DOSENT STING....it is a paraffin compound.. same as a candle or the sterile paraffin wound dressings with a short molecule size which it makes it flow/ melt at a lower temp. Pouring kero into a wound cleans , sterilizes stops bleeding and help heal faster. So maybe next time out throw a small bottle kero into the locker |
Posted By: TheSnapperWhisperer
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 2:41pm
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wow just been reading about kero. Turns out it's an elixir to cure everything from athlete's foot to Cancer. I particularly liked the story about the guy who drank a cup a day, til he switched to petrol, and he now looks healthier than most non-petrol drinkers apparently. Drank a ton and a half of light fuel oils to date. still, I might give that a miss.... ------------- http://www.facebook.com/TheSnapperWhisperer |
Posted By: Mullins
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 4:15pm
| Has anybody considered using a rock to smash kina, rather than their hands? |
Posted By: Diver Dan
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 5:15pm
A very Wellington thing to say, but yes, I guess you have credibility given the many many photos I have seen of you holding up large snapper Dave. Rocks are probably better than hands. ------------- Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club |
Posted By: Mullins
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 7:23pm
| I'm often tempted by huge snaps but then I think, y'know, the paperwork.... |
Posted By: Diver Dan
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 10:21pm
Ooooh! That is cruel! ------------- Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club |
Posted By: offsurfing
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 10:21pm
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I slipped off a rock and feel 4 foot onto a kina. 30 spikes in my embedded in my foot a couple of year ago. A real men might have taken have taken a cup of harden up. Heck Brad Thorne would have just picked the kina up and eaten it whole followed by a fist pump.  I just screamed like a NRL league player whos team mate pinched his pecker...... Wife removed about 10 spikes. Doctor after 10-15 injections into my foot (which hurt far worse than landing on the kina I assure you) took out another 10 or so before giving up completely after 2 hours. I still have some in there and dents in my sole of my heel of my foot. As a side bar I have them in my hand, knee, and two on top of my foot (which I have no idea how they got there to this day) and one in my chest and one in my shoulder?. Battle scares I say.... along with the 6 stitches when I ripped my lip apart when the gun recoiled in my face over summer. The injury's all make you harder. Insert a Brad Thorne FIST PUMP here. Even dropped kina on our matai (hard wood floor in our ex state house rental), three foot drop as I'm vertically challanged and to this day 6-7 spines are embedded in the floor. My wife is still amazed by this as to put a nail in you have to drill it first as its so hard using a hammer the nails just bend............ |
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 14 May 2015 at 9:47am
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Anyone had to deal with spines off the bottom end of a phonex palm. Of any spine they have to one of the worst.. so fine and so deep one hardley feel them go in,and the tips break off....months latte you wonder why your arm is red and swollen one morning... |
Posted By: TIN RIB
Date Posted: 14 May 2015 at 11:46am
| Got a Kina spike stuck in my finger very close to the knuckle , thought it was nothing and left it but ended up needing an op to remove it and plastic surgery as it formed a lump over the area. |
Posted By: Hex
Date Posted: 14 May 2015 at 1:30pm
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Every summer get at least a couple kina spikes in the hands and fingers. Just take off the glove see where it is and if its still got some protruding from the skin pull it out with my teeth, have to be gentle though as they do break easy. If it's broken flush wait till we get out and use the old mans trick, open a kina get the eye and break it apart and they have some long thin parts ideal for the procedure. Cant recall ever having had reactions to the spikes. ------------- Why do today, what you can put off tomorrow? |
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 9:47am
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Anyone used the old school poultice? Rem my mum doining so as a kid....and how over night a splinter would be drawn out of a foot or knee. Couple yrs back had a deep infection on my leg appear.. decided to the the old school type soap/ sugar under the dressing.. 1st 24 hrs something was defnately happening.. next 24 hrs a splinter that must have been there for months or yrs was drawn up, and the whole think healed over in couple days nps Mentioned to my son.. who spends a lot time in the bush, and over seas jungle in remote moutains islands places like PNG. he carries a block of old school homemade soap ... throws a bit on the inside of a plaster or dressing...fixed. He also uses kero in cuts etc.. post further back. It is difficult to source old school hand made boiled processed soaps....not the commercial made melt and pour products supplied to most craft soap marketers. google hertiagesoaps nz |
Posted By: ceramic
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 11:36am
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I have had my fair share of kina spines. Some get infected and some don't. Sometimes I get swelling or itchyness and othertimes I don't. Like a lot of other divers I have thought about toxins, surface bacteria/ biofilms, allergins etc on the kina spines but what makes it really confusing is that only the occasional spine really flares up even when spiked in multiple places. I suspect the response to kina spines is due to a number of factors rather than a single cause. One other explanation nobody has discussed is that the kina spine could innoculate bacteria under the skin. Considering an open cell suit is a breeding ground for bacteria (well mine is anyway) a spine could carry this bacteria with it. Sometimes even after getting a spine out infections dont clear up until you finally get out a last tiny little speck of black stuff. I have often wondered if that speck could be a bacteria laden fragment of neoprene carried by the spine.
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Posted By: tom1
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 3:18pm
 .------------- 14 snapper fillets, "enough for a feed" ?! |
Posted By: Mullins
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 6:38pm
| A big rock, Tom. A big rock. |
Posted By: shiraz
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 7:50pm
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Glenfiddich is marvelous stuff: 1 - anaesthetic 2 - anti-septic 3 - when you've had enough to achieve 1 ( above), heat the now empty bottle & apply mouth of bottle over affected area. Suction/ vacuum created will draw spine. Swab (2) Repeat as needed
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Posted By: Chaff
Date Posted: 17 May 2015 at 5:29pm
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I came back from a spearing trip with a pretty swollen area at the base of a finger, and VERY painful, and very quick onset. Went to an A&E, the doctor there was very worried, immediately dosed me up and referred me to Middlemore plastics. Supposedly there is a not uncommon occurrence of cray (mainly, i think due to technique) spines being just the right depth to pierce the layer around bones/ tendons, and the bacteria can multiply and infect so quickly that within hours you will be in agony and it could cause permanent damage. It was X-rayed at Middlemore (2am at this stage), the plastic surgeon said that it wasn't what the A&E doctor thought it was, no infection, just muscular damage. He was surprised at how painful it was and how quickly it came up as that is indicative of what the A&E doctor thought it was, except he said that if it was that, it would have been so painful I would have probably punched anyone who touched it. Turns out the A&E doctor knew just enough to overreact haha, better that than the other way I guess. Sorry i can't remember the type of injury they thought it was. Chaff |
Posted By: Terrapin
Date Posted: 19 May 2015 at 2:09pm
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It is worth checking out this paper in the New Zealand Medical Journal with info on symptoms, treatment etc http://tearai.kete.net.nz/documents/0000/0000/0164/medical_journal_on_katipo.pdf This looks useful also. Unfortunately the relevant pages aren't in Google Books Mebs D 1995. Clinical toxicology of sea urchin and starfish injuries. In: Meier J, White J, editors. Handbook of clinical toxicology of animal venoms and poisons. p. 129–33.
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Posted By: Spearomedic
Date Posted: 21 May 2015 at 2:05pm
Yes i agree, probably a combination of factors, traumatic, chemical irriation (toxin) and infection. Next time i get an infected one I'll send it off to the lab and see if it grows skin bugs or marine bugs. When i was working in plastics at middlemore we saw a bit of vibrio in marine injuries and they were often nasty probably because our immune system isnt used to fighting it. Might be a while though, because ive just bought a new pair of gloves from Sequel. Lots of kevlar, very nice fit, $60, highly recommend those guys. cheers for all the comments
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Posted By: TheSnapperWhisperer
Date Posted: 21 May 2015 at 10:44pm
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Yeah agree with that, I have a spot of black in a finger on the inside which I suspect is a piece of neoprene under the skin that has moved around to end up there. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/TheSnapperWhisperer |
Posted By: kirlu7
Date Posted: 22 May 2015 at 3:21pm
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I also used a rock.. A BIG rock, but I hit a kina on a adjacent rock on the way down to hte burley..Spike went into the outer joint of the thumb. This was sore for a few weeks but thought nothing was in there anymore.. Until my joint started going stiff and I couldn't even hold my beer. That was when I decided to go to the doctor. They did some ultrasound, which didn't show anything. Then some Xray, which didn't really show anything other than a small hole in the bone close to the joint. MRI scan showed that where the kina had been the bone was deteriating, and some sort of tissue was building up inside the joint and around the hole, but no trace of a kina spike. Had a surgeion to open it up and clean out the tissue etc, and he also found a VERY small peice of the kina which was sitting in the little hole in the bone(in the joint). Since then its all good... Best of all, I can hold my beer again  Think i still have some of the photos from the different tests that is of interest. cheers rik ------------- Don't hate me just because I have a different opinion than yours!! |
Posted By: Fizzlesticks
Date Posted: 23 May 2015 at 1:43pm
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Use a hammer, I haven't had a kina spine in my fingers 8 years. Previously I would get maybe 3 or 4 a year when using rocks plus it's a lot faster and you don't need to search for a suitable rock, no good in comps though ------------- It doesn't have to be fun to be fun |
Posted By: ceramic
Date Posted: 24 May 2015 at 2:26pm
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Speromedic- You might not have to wait as long as you think. I have the same gloves. Kevlar is great for crays and longevity, but kina spines seem to go straight through (I just dug the proof out of my little finger). |
Posted By: Hipponui
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2024 at 12:20pm
| Hi I got several kina spikes in my finger some 2 months ago and they have not come out yet. My finger has inflammation and I cant bend it fully. I've had an xray and MRI and there are sign of inflammation but no foreign bodies. I feel that because it has been in there so long that the spikes have broken into sand like sizing and hence the inflammation. |
Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2024 at 9:00pm
| I had one in my finger, Took a while to go get it checked as assumed would work it's way out. instead it worked it's way right into the joint. Just visible with the right direction xray. Doc said they would need to take my finger off to get to it. No guarantee it wouldn't be permanently damaged in the process so more than 12 months later pain and inflammation got better, Took ages for my body to dissolve it. 30+ years later and knuckle is still fat and I can "lock" it. |
Posted By: muchalls
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2024 at 4:36pm
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an old thread, but Dermnetnz.org implies they have toxins by suggesting initial treatment with hot water to denature the proteins….. One of my patients got a stingray barb through his palm a few years ago, he tells me it was indeed ‘effin painful’
https://dermnetnz.org/topics/marine-wounds-and-stings" rel="nofollow - https://dermnetnz.org/topics/marine-wounds-and-stings Sea urchins
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