Windon Leader Knot Issues

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    Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 1:50pm
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I figure someone else out there has had the same problems but i cant figure out how to sort this out so im hoping someone has a peice of wisdom to share

Im using a windon leader and a PR knot and having heaps of problems with the leader catching on my top guide, my knot is solid but after ten or so casts the half hitches slowly work their way back up the mainline eventually exposing the leader tag end that ends up getting caught.

Ive tried tapering the end of my leader and it definitely helps streamline the connection but its more the half hitches that are ruining my day

Hoping someone has a solution!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kaveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 2:53pm
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Use a fg knot for casting, way better than pr knot
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote footey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 3:49pm
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yes I second that. fg knot way less problems
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KingySlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 4:58pm
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Raniger, the reason your half hitches are moving after say ten cast is due to them not being tied tight. I had this problem when i first started jigging with the leader alwasy jamming on the first guide when winding in. What i now do is when i tie the half hitches i pull tag end to sky then pull the tag end hardish and jerking it towards the leader to get a tight knot. I am yet to now have any issues with this knot since changing this. Both the FG and PR knot work great as far as i am concerned but i enjoy tieing the PR and its good practice for me and doing it on most gear alot of other people get to see how it is done.

But each to their own mate and definately tie other knots and see how you get on.

Also boys, i thought he was asking why his PR knot kept catching not what was a better knot as both the FG and PR knot is finished the same as the PR.



But anyway to help leaviate the problem just try to pull the half hitch or overhand knot up and then toward the PR wraps.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 5:17pm
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Haha the classic PR vs FG debate, I've used both before and i personally rate the PR knot to come out on top.

Cheers Kingyslayer I figured that could be my problem but I got the feeling that the hitches could still be loosened over time, I'll be sure to put some weetbix into the half hitches next time.

I had the idea that I should add a locking half hitch at the end to keep the tension on in the half hitches.. Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 6:19pm
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Try finishing the half hitches with a  finishing knot  the same as used at the back of a bimini. It locks the half hitches and ensures they wont unravel.  

Heres a description of what I mean as found on sportfisherman.com

"After you tie the half hitches create a loop with the tag end.
Now wrap INSIDE of the loop 7 wraps TOWARD the half hitches. The loop and wraps will be kind of like a uni knot but backwards as your wraps are going towards the half hitchs.

Now unwrap with the loop 4 times while holding the tag end and mainline tought. Unwrap with the part of the loop closest to the half hitches.

Now pull the tag end tight and you'll see the tag pull underneath the loops creating a neat and snug finish."

Easy peasy lemon squeazy
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KingySlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 6:22pm
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Another wee trick i do mate is when i start tieing the overhands or half hitches i make sure the leader is on top of the braid and really tight between my thighs and this alows the braid the bite into the leader as oppossed to the braid and also makes it easier to see which way you need to tie next if you have accidentially forgotten (always happens to me). Then once i have completely finished my PR Knot i then finish the whole knot with a "Rissuto" knot and its just dam awesome. Hope this helps mate but thats just my preference as for some reason i enjoy tieing the PR and people who have not seen it before are amazed by it when they see it completed
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote alan syme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 8:07pm
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you can also use a small amount of glue at the end of your knot to stop it unravelling.

pr knot does not compare with the fg in my opinion, fg is way smaller for casting so it prevents/lessens this sort of issue occuring as much in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ReelAppealLures Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 8:29pm
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Snap...

I had been using the "Rizzuto" finish to lock down my hitches, but I don't think this really works using braid as it doesn't "bite" like mono. 


This knot and leader needs replacing, but as you can see my "Rizzuto" always comes undone in braid, the hitches are still locked however. I have used glue as Alan suggested to good effect in the past. 

Titahi, 

Can you better explain the "unwrap with the loop" part. I would like to try this out...

Rainger, 

You are alternating your hitches, over, under etc?... I have found this is critical to really lock the hitches up, I still have a hard time keeping track but I focus on getting each hitch alternating properly.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KingySlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 8:32pm
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FG knot is smaller???? Why not just complete fewer wraps with PR Bobbin? You want tension, add more wraps around arm bar or on tension. You want tension on FG you use teeth, twist, pull and shout... Either way both are good in their own right. I would suggest learning both in case you happen to loose or forget bobbin. But last time i check this thread it was about how to half hitches tightening up having leader protrude
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote laidbackdood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2013 at 11:17pm
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My two cents worth....I used to do the finishing knot as described on my casting knot PR(one inch) but found it came undone from repetitive casting......I use that finishing knot for jigging(Boulder showed me the knot described above...has a stange name) but not for casting(accident prone gave me this tip)....make sure your last three half hitches are done up evil and I then put a dab of maverick bond on that bit(similar to super glue but better)...super glue is rigid and not waterproof and will fail....maverick bond is flexible/uv resistant and waterproof.........never had it fail and its casts great.Wink...when you cast make sure the lure is not too high up the rod....i found the knot seemed to beat the rod tip more like that.....hang it further down,,,as long as you can cast it...about a metre and a half hangin down(dependent on rod length)......if you do that and bring your rod in line quick after the cast....you quite often dont even hear the knot go through the guides and you will get further distance off your cast......do try it! plus the knot will take less punishment from the cast.You will need 2 or 3 winds of leader on your reel at least(i have 3 or 4 winds)for the above to work well.
p,s dont ball the tag end of the leader as its likely to get caught in the eye on the way out,when you cast.....when jigging its not such an issue.....a big top eye on your rod ,helps too.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote stellajigger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 10:45am
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To finish either knot use another piece of braid and lay a loop with it ,wrap you tag end of the main braid  around 5-6 times and put tag in loop and pull through, much the same way you finnish of binding a guide,100%  never to come undone.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KingySlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 10:47am
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Cheers for that laid back dude... Just out of curiosity you say the half hitches would tighten up on casting??? WHere exactly was your Knot when casting and what leader do you use?

Personally i have never had an issue with this knot at all... I use Varivas Top Water Leader 130lb and i make sure there is at least 5 wraps of leader around spool when casting so there for no tension on knot under load of rod at cast and have never ever had an issue with knots tightening. Wonder if its the leader material i use as its pretty dam soft with high memory.

If you do a google search on PR vs FG Knot you will see a fishing net thread on the FG vs PR for Topwater. Some very interesting comments there but as this thread states "Windon Leader Issues".

Rainger i hope all this information has helped mate. As you can see alot of opinions on what works best for each individual.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 11:42am
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Sam the  knot is the same principal as Stellajigger mentions, but without needing to use a second piece of briad.
After tieing the half hitches, throw a large loop away from the half hitches, ( down along side the mainline) and wrap the tag end 7 times around the mainline and one side of the loop, instead of pulling it up unwrap theside of the loop not  looped over the mainline and then pull tight. It will result in 7 tight wraps with the the line underneath the wraps exiting beside the last half hitch. pull tight and it wont come undone.
 
I prefer to unwrap as opposed to just pulling like a uni as it creates friction and heat which is not good for the braid.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ReelAppealLures Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 12:30pm
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Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

Sam the  knot is the same principal as Stellajigger mentions, but without needing to use a second piece of briad.
After tieing the half hitches, throw a large loop away from the half hitches, ( down along side the mainline) and wrap the tag end 7 times around the mainline and one side of the loop, instead of pulling it up unwrap theside of the loop not  looped over the mainline and then pull tight. It will result in 7 tight wraps with the the line underneath the wraps exiting beside the last half hitch. pull tight and it wont come undone.
 
I prefer to unwrap as opposed to just pulling like a uni as it creates friction and heat which is not good for the braid.

Cheers for that bro,

I think this will solve our problem Rainger, along with making sure the hitches are opposing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KingySlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 1:37pm
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titahi i thought the risuto was tied this way. well that's how i tie it as you explained. unwrap loop over tag end and then    pull tag end to remove excess.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 1:59pm
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Thanks kingislayer, learn something new all the time.... Next time I will just call it a Risuto knot :)
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KingySlayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 2:34pm
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always a pleasure to help mate. Also i find if you dont wind the loop on and just pull tag end you can sometimes balls up the knot. I always ah burn the end of the braid on this knot but am not going to give it a go with out doing this for my Top Water stuff and see how long she lasts.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kaveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 5:39pm
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Rizzuto or Venezualan roll is what titahi and kingieslayer are refering to. I always finish my braid knots this way and they dont come undoneWink

Step 10 in link below
http://www.worldseafishing.com/tackle/knots/knots_bimini.html

Another "great knots" reading is here  in these forums( written by Roddy Hayes if im not mistaken)

http://www.fishing.net.nz/index.cfm/pageid/56/view/yes/editorialID/697
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote DLS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 7:48pm
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You're using a wind-on and a PR?

Get rid of the wind-ons. All good in theory but not ideal for casting as they're way to long in the join and they cause friction when casting, plus you'll save money. Most wind-ons are around 10m so you end up cutting most of it off anyway.
Stick with FG's for casting and PR's for jigging. 
Once you master the FG you'll be doing them quicker than it takes you to feed braid onto a bobbin. Nice small tidy knot which honks through your guides with no catching. 

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