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Biodegradable~~what does it mean?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Uncle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Biodegradable~~what does it mean?
    Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 11:12am
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365 days ago,I decided to do a test on a lesser known softbait to see just how long the degredation would take.
I used the bait & jighead in the Tga harbour for an hour or so ( no fish ), then placed it in a jar of seawater on the kitchen windowsill ( Aunty was most impressedLOL)
As was to be expected, the water evaporated so I just topped up the level with fresh, making sure the bait was immersed at all times.
It would seem that the only visible breakdown occured around the bend of the hook area & the tail section is still pliable( stretches without breaking!) 
As I see it, the hook performed far better in the biodegradabilty stakes than the lure.Confused
I am aware the testing method was pretty amateurish but it did make me think.
Just what does "biodegradable" mean?
The packet proclaims that these baits are "environmentally friendly & biodegradable"
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John_Ra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 11:31am
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I would say a proper test would be to put it out in the sea somewhere so it has fresh sea water. Or bury it in your garden about a foot down then see. In a jar not really "exposed" to the elements.
My opinion.
 
What the packet hasn't got, is how long it takes to break down..
 
I do know that if you put certain softbaits in with each other they do break down or form a gooey substance..
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Uncle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 12:45pm
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Yes John, a proper test in the sea would be much more indicative in the true sense.
However, I wanted to be able to "watch & see" with my own peepers so opted for the lesser method.Big smile
 
The salt in saltwater dosen't evaporate so was still "in the mix", sort of
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote PJay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 1:04pm
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I had always thought "biodegrade" meant break down due to bacterial and other biological action.  If I'm right, then sitting in a jar of seawater's not going to be a fair test.
 
That having been said, and softbait enthusiast though I am, it's worrying to me to see the material from Berkeley in support of their claims showing intact Gulp! being defecated unchanged from fish, days and weeks after ingestion.  Surely if the stuff was truly biodegradable, the fish digestive system would start on it pretty smartly.
PJ
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lickindip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 1:22pm
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'technically' everything is biodegradable
give it enough time and it will/should degrade

plastic bags are like 500 years arn't they?
wonder how many years softbaits are

put a piece of bait in another jar beside the soft bait experiment ... doubt it'll take anywhere year a year before its a gooey mess

find out what the polymer is that joins most of it together and wiki it (should give you a basic life span)

although ive got a heap of jig head and a few softies lying about im going back to the big bait /strayline theory this year
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ritual Groove Meister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 1:22pm
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yeah they're biodegradable, it just takes 2000 years to break down
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sid fishus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:22pm
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Is there any agreed international standard on what bio - degradable means? Probably not and certainly not one that is used by bait manufacturers. I think what Berkley etc mean when they say bio - degradable is just that it is not made from petro - chemical derived plastics.

They are still a polymer though and a pretty damn sturdy one from what I have seen.  I mean a PET soft drink bottle sitting on a beach in full sun light, lots of UV, Salt and Oxygen getting at it will only last a year or two. Doesn't make it bio - degradable does it?
 
Still the thing is a glass of water on a bench is gonna lose most of its oxygen pretty quick and that is part of the break down equation. But I suspect a 'bio - degradable' bait (pick your brand) in ideal rotting conditions. ie. wet, UV, oxygen, bacteria and warm will still last a hell of a lot longer than proper organic material like say seaweed, banana skin etc. So they aren't really bio - degradable in that sense of the word are they?
 
But calling them bio degradable makes better marketing than 'not made from oil' which is probably a more legitimate claim.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sid fishus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:28pm
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Actually after a quick search, it appears there are a few bio - degradability standards. Not sure whether any of the baits meet or make a claim of meeting those standards though.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John_Ra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:32pm
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Ummm here's a thought, put it in some gulp juice & let it marinate for 24hrs at least before your next fishing trip & try it.... just curious
Here at work our lab has "things" sitting for pre determined shelf life tests. Some are aged through heating process especially new products...
 
unfortunately I have to "taste" test a lot of Bourbons & other Alc liquids...Wink
 
Salt is more a preserving agent.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote one leg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:32pm
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Have too agree the word  biodegradable is nothing but a joke from what i as a land based fisher see washed up all the time .Maybe in a thousand years might be gone but were talking years .. and the sea's being filled with the stuff by all Angry .SHOULD BE BANNED
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LEVCAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:38pm
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something does not just degrade by it's self...   for something to degrade it needs bacteria to break it down. This bacteria can come from within the living organism, or it is exposed to bacteria from the outside world that aid in breakingng the material down... eg a fruit, made of natural material that is easily degradable, hits the ground and is exposed to bacteria that live in the soil or fungi that float in the air, and it biodegrades.

the same can be true with gulp - it is made of material that can be decomposed by bacteria, or other organisms - and this makes it bio degradable...   they are bio degrabable, just not in an immediate sense. the fact that when you leave gulp out in warm moist conditions and after a while fungus grows on it, is living proof that they are bio degradable...   the fungus would not grow in the gulp if it didn't have anything to feed on.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LEVCAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:39pm
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oohh i forgot to mention that's where your experiment was flawed...   you continued to fill the jar with fresh water - and since there is very little strong bacteria in tap water... that is why it didn't degrade.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote one leg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:59pm
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so what your saying is steel is more biodegradeable that gulp Levcat

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JoshW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 2:59pm
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Originally posted by sid fishus sid fishus wrote:

 
But calling them bio degradable makes better marketing than 'not made from oil' which is probably a more legitimate claim.
 
Biodegradable, just means decay through action of living organisms.
 But oil itself is biodegreadable too, there are organisms that consume and break it down
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JoshW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 3:01pm
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Originally posted by one leg one leg wrote:

so what your saying is steel is more biodegradeable that gulp Levcat

 
Rust/corrosion/electrolysis and the action of living organisms on a substance, are two completely different things.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lickindip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 3:58pm
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Originally posted by JoshW JoshW wrote:

Originally posted by one leg one leg wrote:

so what your saying is steel is more biodegradeable that gulp Levcat

 
Rust/corrosion/electrolysis and the action of living organisms on a substance, are two completely different things.



agreed. corrosion is chemical etc, bio is biology as in living organisms

i had mold growing on my curtains at my last flat, i dnt think people will be happy if i chuck that in the ocean and shrug it off saying "meh its bio degradable"

would be interesting to see what the 'standards' are for claiming bio-degradableness for items such as softbaits

there have been many reports of fish with fully intact softies sticking out there jacksees, i.e been through the stomach guts etc and yet hardly a touch on them

wonder if its also malnourishing them ... full stomachs of items they cant use for energy
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Finatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 4:22pm
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You can now get biodegradable trace material.
What's the cheapest type of meat? Dear balls. They're under a buck.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Phishpula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 4:26pm
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Should have spat it the jar uncle and got a few specimens of toe jam from the rugby club to aid in the organism theory.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Uncle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 5:34pm
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toe jam you reckon Phish?
Maybe a bit of that in the baits would help with the breakdown processLOL
 
Some interesting info being posted in this threadThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sid fishus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2009 at 7:28pm
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Just looked at four different brands of 'biodegradable' soft baits i have in my garage. Not one of them mentions any bio-degradability standard.
 
These standards do exist, wikipedia has a good page on it as always, funnliy enough an american organization called ASTM is the main authority on bio-degradable plastics, yet I haven't seen any reference on any bait packagin or material to them. Wonder if any of these baits actually meet a known bio-degradable standard?
 
Still....  I use em and like using em, just think that the bio-degradable claims are more marketing speak than supported by science. One of the brands has a nice world logo with bio-degradable on it, yet look closely and that is all it is, a picture of the earth with bio-degradable written on it.
 
toe jam is definitely bio degradable, but I am not sure what smells worse. that or baits
 
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