Two stroke outboards

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    Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 7:43am
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This is just the start, Herald today

Cheap outboards big polluters

5:00AM Saturday August 16, 2008
By Angela Gregory

Half the outdoor boat motors being imported are banned for sale in most of the Western world _ including the countries that make them _ because of their poor pollution record.

About 9000 outboards motors are imported annually and half are high emission two-stroke carburated or fuel injection engines.

At a presentation at the Viaduct Harbour yesterday, industry representatives and Associate Transport Minister Judith Tizard heard the two-stroke engines produced up to 10 times more emissions of pollutants such as hydrocarbon and oxides of nitrate than four stroke engines.

A 15 horsepower two-stroke engine produces twice the emissions of a new technology 150 horsepower engine 10 times its size.

Gary Fooks, an emissions researcher and senior lecturer at Brisbane University, says the residual pollutants from two-stroke engines would leave in New Zealand waters an amount similar to a spill from a small oil tanker.

If the outboard motors were swapped for three-star low emission engines there would be about 33,000 litres less hyrdocarbons and oxides of nitrate in the sea, he said.

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The former economist, who belongs to Australia's eco-friendly fishing association, says the use of low emission engines would result in a 0.5 per cent drop in fuel imports.

The high emission two-stroke engines were banned for sale in most of the western world, including the countries they were made, like the United States, Japan and Canada.

New Zealand and Australia are the only developed countries allowing imports of carburated and fuel injection two-stroke motors.

New Zealand sales of the more environmentally friendly engines remain static.

Mr Fooks says two-stroke lawn mowers are also bad for the environment as they produce 40 times the emissions of a standard car.

Mark Presnall, the area manager for Suzuki Marine, says the company sells the high-emission two-stroke engines because of market demand and competition from other retailers.

Mr Presnall says the company only sells two-strokes up to 40 horsepower and expects the motors will eventually be phased out. "We'd be happy to give up two-strokes if it was an industry initiative."

He says for people spending about $2000 on a boat engine, the extra cost of a low-emission model remains an obstacle.

"We are stuck between market forces and where we'd like to be."

Ms Tizard says the Government isn't planning to ban imports of two-stroke engines but will keep an eye on Australia proposals.

She says the environment ministers of Australia and New Zealand will consider the issue.

She will ponder the new information and seek advice from her department's officials.

"I don't see this as the biggest issue ... we are not in the business of telling tens of thousands of New Zealanders with outboard motors and lawn mowers that they have to do anything."

One problem was the lack of an international standard on outboard emissions.

In New Zealand, councils administer air and water standards, she says.

She wants New Zealanders to get good information on fuel efficiency, and hopes they will consider taking it into account with whole life cycle costs when making purchases.

Auckland's Outdoor Boating Club commodore Fraser Elder said two-stroke engines were generally lighter, cheaper and offered better acceleration than comparative four-stroke engines.

He said banning two-stroke engines from New Zealand would certainly be resisted by boaties.

"There are a lot of two-stroke engines around, primarily because of the additional cost of four-strokes.

"A forced retirement [of currently registered two-strokes] would have boaties in an uproar."

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 8:29am
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You wait, Uncle Helens mob will leap on this like a bear on a salmon, vilify the evil boaties (thus attracting a healthy slice of the Greens vote), and come up with some half-assed scheme to "discourage" people from buying 2 strokes.

It is interesting though, someone has worked out how much extra emissions boating produces, so surely someone out there must know how much petrol is used by boaties every year as well.... hhhhmmmmm..... then, perhaps the govt may not like the Great Unwashed (that is us, sunshine) to know how much petrol is being sold for boats yet still being Road-taxed to the max. Hell, we may get all unreasonable, and ask for some of that money back!

Even worse, we might insist on any deal for swapping a 2 stroke motor for a new 4 stroke would give us road-tax exempt fuel for that motor for say 4 years. Now THAT would make some sense wouldn't it? Hah! Fat chance of that happening though..... :-)
cheers, Stu.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 8:45am
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More hokey science from the looney greens.


Quote: "A 15 horsepower two-stroke engine produces twice the emissions of a new technology 150 horsepower engine 10 times its size."


Wouldn't the engine have to consume twice the fuel - or close to it - to produce twice the emissions? That would mean a 15hp two stroke is consuming twice as much as a 150 four stroke (or close to it)? Puhlease.


Quote: Gary Fooks, an emissions researcher and senior lecturer at Brisbane University, says the residual pollutants from two-stroke engines would leave in New Zealand waters an amount similar to a spill from a small oil tanker.

If the outboard motors were swapped for three-star low emission engines there would be about 33,000 litres less hyrdocarbons and oxides of nitrate in the sea, he said."

How small an oil tanker? Very emotive word picture there but how has this number been arrived at, given there can be no data available for the number of engines in this market, nor the amount of fuel used. This is just guesswork. If Australian greenies are goingo to come here and preach, can they please do it from a scientific background, not some bullshyte that they've dreamed up during a chanting session under the outback moon.



It also fails to mention that Mr Fooks was paid to come here by an outboard manufacturer that has a seriously vested interest in this matter.

Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote rocko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 9:32am
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aether that or some half arsed scheme to add a surcharge or tax on fuel...

not everyone can afford 4strokes or advanced high tech engines. other wise we would have them.. but its ok for the goverment to be buying $80k gas guzzling 4ltr vehicles....
monkey see monkey do the way i see nz goverment need to make there own stand on issues instead of following suit with australia.. more codswollop from the greenies
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote formtool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 7:41pm
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All I hear is a outbord motor company using it's money and power to convice the government to change legistration so that THEY can create more sales as we have to change to a 4 stroke motor.
I wish I had that sort of power for my small business, but once again it;s the little guy getting screwed. Bring on the election Thumbs%20Up
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote strx7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 7:42pm
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Originally posted by Bender Bender wrote:

Wouldn't the engine have to consume twice the fuel - or close to it - to produce twice the emissions? That would mean a 15hp two stroke is consuming twice as much as a 150 four stroke (or close to it)? Puhlease.

 
Nope cause they are comparing a 15hp 2 stroke which is combustion petrol AND OIL, against a 150hp 4 stroke which is combusting only petrol.  The OIL is the major pollutant.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kingphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 8:14pm
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I'd love a four stroke if I could afford one, they are the go.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dagwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 8:45pm
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Fired up my "satanic" 90hp 2 stroke last week before taking the family out. The neighbours house disappeared in a blue cloud of smoke as it had been some time since it had a run.

Next thing I see is a very envious face complete with a huge smile popping over the fence. His comment - "thanks for turning our street into Bejing"

Surely this is just the fruit loops having their last gasp??


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 8:53pm
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We should ask Mr Fooks how many litres of hydrocarbon pollutants end up in the harbours via the stormwater systems.
Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Carbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 9:38pm
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fart tax didnt take off so they took 3 years and smokes 5 pounds of hash to come up with an equally stupid statistic and idea
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 10:29pm
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Nah it doesn't add up. The oil DOES add to the pollutants and there is going to be a higher particulate count from a blue smoke errrr I mean a two stroke, but it wont be that high. Especially if you compare a modern 4 stroke to an injected 2 stroke. Even with a carburreted 2 stroke, at normal running speed and temp you dont see any smoke because the engine is burning the oil more effectively. If you took a worse case of a 2 stroke starting up cold vs a warm 4 stroke then yeah you would be approaching that - especially if it was an old seagull running on pre mix 20:1 SAE 30 - old 2 strokes had terrible scavenging and a lot of unburnt fuel and oil went out the pipe - no autolube back then baby. When was the last time you ever fouled a plug on a modern 2 stroke? Not managed that in 12 years myself. Those are trumped up figures IMO - I would like to see how they arrived at them that's for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote squidlicker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 7:36am
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What about all the trees that were axed and chemicals produced for ink to print this crap? not to mention the petrol burned for distrubution. Hey Helen.....suck it slowly.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote saltshaka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 8:09am
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better sharpen my axe----- chainsaws will be next on the hit list.

GET REEL!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Husky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 9:07am
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I think this might end up a bit of a storm in a tea cup, when California banned 2 stroke dirt bikes everyone thought that this was the end of 2 strokes due to California being one of the biggest markets. This has proved to be wrong even with the advent of hi-tec 4 strokes.

The new generation of 2 strokes have come along way from seagulls, they have a very low pollution foot print, either way we are going to hang something on the back of our boats that will pollute to some degree or another.
This has come from one company grinding it's axe this week. Next week it will be some other issue.  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote rocko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 9:08am
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personally id like a 4 stroke my self, purely for fuel efficiency but like many others finances don't allow it, so we make do with what we have in the meantime like many engines 2 and 4stk im sure a well maintained engines isn't that much of problem... as formtool posted.. could be a another corporate marketing exerciser.. who knows what gos through clowns minds.. IMO
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Husky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 9:31am
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I hope the jet ski people understand that this includes them, in fact they should go first!LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote rocko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 9:40am
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.hell yeah!   ( bit off topic i know but )  not putting them down but how many have been land base fish somewhere and jet ski decides to mosey over just to be a pain.Angry...surely those little motor,s pushing a jet unit cant be that  fuel efficient ..i know any jet unit requires allot of engine power therefor must use bit of fuel also...... I stand corrected if im wrong!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Old Fart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 6:05pm
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If they wanted a shot of a 2 stroke smoking they should of shown one of mine. But then our Leader would would like us all to live in our little green socialist welfare state. The trouble is the likes of the Farmers and Truckies etc are a little too vocal for our parasitic mob.Who wouldn,t mind a 4 stroke but at 39% taxation what are the chances.
I wish I could catch as many fish as my wife does.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote rocko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2008 at 11:34pm
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Originally posted by Old Fart Old Fart wrote:

If they wanted a shot of a 2 stroke smoking they should of shown one of mine. But then our Leader would would like us all to live in our little green socialist welfare state. The trouble is the likes of the Farmers and Truckies etc are a little too vocal for our parasitic mob.Who wouldn,t mind a 4 stroke but at 39% taxation what are the chances.



 i wouldnt exactly say vocal for.. more against than anything......
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