Fuel starvation issues. Help needed!!

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    Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 8:20pm
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Hi guys

In dire need of some help from some of you gurus.


Went out fishing today and had to crawl most the way home due to fuel starvation issues. Really frustrating experience.

Symptoms are as follows: Problem occurs at high revs, outboard loses all power. Engine doesn’t die but just loses all revs. After this the outboard seems fine at low revs but once we try to open it up a bit it loses power again. The bulb collapses and takes forever to return to full shape after pumping.  

Outboard is a 98 Evinrude Oceanpro 115. Underfloor 230L fuel tank. There is a vent on the tank and an in-line water-separation filter. Tried sucking on the vent and it seems to be clear.

I’ll give you some history.

Bought the boat 3 months or so ago. Originally had a fuel flow gauge fitted. There was a very minor fuel starvation issue on the test run. The seller said it was a problem he had experienced before and that it was an airlock in the fuel flow gauge. To fix it he opened up the fuel line where it connected to the fuel flow gauge and blew in it. Seemed to work.

Talked to the shop who did the pre-purchase inspection about it and they were pretty certain it would be the fuel low gauge not being orientated right.

Once we got it home we repositioned the gauge and had a number of problem-free trips. Then at a later stage the problem showed up again so we removed the fuel flow gauge. This seemed to work for a while. However, a couple of weeks ago we had the problem rear its head again (flow gauge no longer connected). I opened the fuel line and blew in it (clutching at straws I know) got us through the rest of the trip and the next.

Today the problem showed up again big time. Managed to get home by continually pumping the bulb and disconnecting/reconnecting the fuel line at the bulb when it started to collapse.

Might also be worth mentioning that we sometimes have problems filling the fuel tank. The gas station pump often won’t stay on and we have to hold the pump handle down in order to get it to fill.

The collapsed bulb makes me think it is a fuel line issue rather than an outboard fuel pump issue (but I don’t really know what I’m talking about). Thinking it could possibly be the fuel filter so will replace this ASAP.

Anyone have any other bright ideas???????

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote greghud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 8:26pm
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the primer bulb is before or after the filter? if before then the problem is not the filter. 
can you give it a run on another fuel tank, borrow a tote tank or something?
it almost sounds like a blockage in the tanks pickup, that clears for a while when you have stopped to fiddle, it runs ok for a while till you pick it up again.....
greg
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote krow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 8:39pm
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A few places to start. 
As the bulb takes a while to inflate then you have a blockage somewhere before the pump, or in the pump. 
Most likely cause is blocked or semi blocked tank fitting. You need to check all fittings between the tank and the pump. Including the inlet of the pump. Disconnect the hose off the tank and put it in a petrol tin. Does the pump inflate and deflate better? 
If the blockage is as severe as it sounds the pump should also get sucked flat when in transit. if it doesn't then replace the whole pump. 
If you just have a straight hose directly off the tank and blowing down the tube temporarily clears the blockage then you have something blocking the intake inside the tank. This isn't so easy to fix but could be a bit of gasket material or something. 
Don't worry about the the pump flicking off when filling it's most likely just to be to narrow an inlet pipe or too many bends. 

If your fuel filter is before the pump check it too. As above just leave the filter inline while testing off another petrol container. Hint it might be easier to disconnect the supply off the motor and pump into another container so fuel flow can be assessed.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 8:44pm
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Which way are you blowing? Towards the tank or the engine, and is the fuel filter between the place you blow and the engine?First guesses would be strainer on the tank pickup if it has one or maybe ethanol/age damage inside the fuel line.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote of2fsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 8:57pm
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Or crud/ plastic in the tank blocking the outlet,this would explain the randomness,when its blocked the pump is sucking the primer bulb flat as it cant get enough fuel.
Had this on my wife's BMW car ,very easy fix in the end that had me thinking big $$$, small piece of plastic on tank strainer that must of dropped off when car stopped then picked up at higher revs
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote onboard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 9:06pm
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check fuel lines, there could be a bend somewhere, or crushed by salt buildup.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote gizzykid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 9:08pm
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Hey guys 

Thanks heaps for the quick replies.

At the start of the day before starting the primer bulb inflates fine but after I have the starvation issue the bulb is collapsed and doesnt reinflate.

Setup is:
Tank - Fuel filter - Primer bulb - Outboard

When blowing I have just been disconnecting the fuel line on the bulb (on the tank side) and blowing into both the fuel line and bulb. 

OK so if I try connecting it: 
Tote tank - fuel filter - primer bulb - outboard
and don't have any issues I can assume the issue is either in the tank fitting or hose between tank and filter. Is this right??

The problem is the issue only seems to occur after a while of travelling and so cant test at home or on a quick trip. Sort of need to be heading out a good distance. 
Maybe on my next trip I'll take a tote tank and if the problem occurs I'll switch over to the tote and see if its still an issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote yknot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 9:11pm
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Check any connection points, any quick connects with o ring missing/pinched?
Those that say it can't be done are being overtaken by those doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote gizzykid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 9:15pm
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Might also replace the fuel lines between tank-filter and filter-bulb to be safe.   

Would replace bulb-outboard line also but am not sure about the outboard side of things. How easy is it to replace the fuel line at the outboard end?? Is it a simple connection as per elsewhere or is it something fancy and complicated? 

How would I go about checking the tank outlet? Just remove the hose and take a look??
Pretty new to all this.

Thanks heaps guys
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote greghud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 9:43pm
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Originally posted by gizzykid gizzykid wrote:

Hey guys 

Setup is:
Tank - Fuel filter - Primer bulb - Outboard

i am gonna bet the filter is full of crap.
greg
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote SurTAS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 10:14pm
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Had a very similar scenario with our 175 honda. The fuel line was crushed by salt build up at the point of entry to the motor itself.    I clean it out every year now.    Damn I wasted some time checking this line, that filter, this tank that tote.    Simple fix in the end.
Just 1 more....
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Betty Boop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 10:19pm
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I had this issue and we chased it for months. We asertained that the pickup entry though the tank had porus welding. The problem was solved by smearing sika urethane, all over the weld. We spotted it finally when we replaced the line to tank with clear and found a trail of air bubbles causing it to activate the limp mode, due to starvation .......good luckThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 9:36am
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The problem is the issue only seems to occur after a while of travelling
Bulb sucking in
The pump must be working to pull the bulb in and no air leaks between the bulb and tank
u blow back down into the tank, runs fine.. for a while

Any debris that maybe causing the blockage gets blown back out... into the tank.
OR and perishing , disinergation of the inner lining of a fuel hose gets blown back out...or  flap blown back.
A common issue on 'home' repairs, for cars is not using the correct vaccuum type fuel hose

From your description it wil be either wrong type or perished hoses, blocking or sucking closed
OR crap in the fuel tank...

illustrate this, an old dirty trick was to put feathers in a car fuel tank... car runs fine but as the feathers get close to the tank pick up they collect and eventually block... stop and they float away...

Replace the fuel filter, regardless of how old....pour the contents out and open it up for inspection

Replace all hoses from bulb to tank.. at least.. if they are the wrong spec because of poor previous workmanship, may pay to replace the lot just incase.. and check the filler hose to tank, for spec and inside condition

And caustion tunning a engine of that size on a tote take WoT....many totev tanks are designed for small engines and the fittings dont flow enough fuel, and could run lean.

Get this sorted very soon... running lean/ running out of gas is very destructive to engines



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote gizzykid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 10:07am
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

The problem is the issue only seems to occur after a while of travelling
Bulb sucking in
The pump must be working to pull the bulb in and no air leaks between the bulb and tank
u blow back down into the tank, runs fine.. for a while

Any debris that maybe causing the blockage gets blown back out... into the tank.
OR and perishing , disinergation of the inner lining of a fuel hose gets blown back out...or  flap blown back.
A common issue on 'home' repairs, for cars is not using the correct vaccuum type fuel hose

From your description it wil be either wrong type or perished hoses, blocking or sucking closed
OR crap in the fuel tank...

illustrate this, an old dirty trick was to put feathers in a car fuel tank... car runs fine but as the feathers get close to the tank pick up they collect and eventually block... stop and they float away...

Replace the fuel filter, regardless of how old....pour the contents out and open it up for inspection

Replace all hoses from bulb to tank.. at least.. if they are the wrong spec because of poor previous workmanship, may pay to replace the lot just incase.. and check the filler hose to tank, for spec and inside condition

And caustion tunning a engine of that size on a tote take WoT....many totev tanks are designed for small engines and the fittings dont flow enough fuel, and could run lean.

Get this sorted very soon... running lean/ running out of gas is very destructive to engines




Sweet thanks mate. 

Shoot didn't realise this was potentially doing significant damage to the outboard. Will get it sorted before I run the outboard again for sure.

Will definitely replace fuel filter and all fuel hoses. I'll have a chat to the local marine store and grab the new hose off them to make sure I get the correct hose type.

If the issue turns out to be crap in the fuel tank how would I go about cleaning it out?? 
Assume I would need to empty and remove the tank completely, then flush it out (using petrol). 
Is there any other way of doing it??

Will also check and possibly replace the filler hose and suppose I may as well do the vent hose while I'm at it.


.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Joker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 10:30am
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RE If the issue turns out to be crap in the fuel tank how would I go about cleaning it out??


A garden hose used as a syphon with the end in the tank moved all around the bottom would suck the crap out like a vacuum.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 3:26pm
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Pull the tank out....
yeah sounds like a big job.. but once have a few jumble clips undone, couple guys..
MT it, remove the sender unit.. chances are the screws will be stuffed so may have to get the drill or grinder out to remove them....
 a good flush with a hose...
Drain , a 1/2 L meths, good rinse out .. The meths dissolves any moisture.
repeat again....
Throw a couple L premixed 2 stroke in, rinse out.. and if all clear replace the tank
And while at it replace all hoses...

And dont buy the hoses at a marine place, they charge like a rabid wounded bull on heat.
Automotive supplies....

I will make something clear here.. for the last 40yrs I have not been a 'boat' person, more classic/  vintage/ muscle cars.. but the principles are the same
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote gizzykid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 3:56pm
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

Pull the tank out....
yeah sounds like a big job.. but once have a few jumble clips undone, couple guys..
MT it, remove the sender unit.. chances are the screws will be stuffed so may have to get the drill or grinder out to remove them....
 a good flush with a hose...
Drain , a 1/2 L meths, good rinse out .. The meths dissolves any moisture.
repeat again....
Throw a couple L premixed 2 stroke in, rinse out.. and if all clear replace the tank
And while at it replace all hoses...

And dont buy the hoses at a marine place, they charge like a rabid wounded bull on heat.
Automotive supplies....

I will make something clear here.. for the last 40yrs I have not been a 'boat' person, more classic/  vintage/ muscle cars.. but the principles are the same

Yeah was thinking I had may as well do the job properly and remove the tank completely. Will be a good opportunity to inspect the hull etc also. 

Sweet so rinse with water followed by meths followed by petrol.

Thanks for the heads up about where to buy fuel line. I'll shoot into supercheap and pick some up. What is the correct spec to be using?? i.e what sort of fuel line should I be asking for?? Don't want to end up putting the wrong hose in.


.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote gizzykid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 4:32pm
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Just had another thought. Prior to the last trip I flooded the hull with fresh water and left it for a couple of days (was meaning to empty it the next day but this didn't happen for some reason or another). I wonder if there is a leaky join or weld somewhere in the fuel tank and some fresh water found its way into the fuel. I have flooded it a couple of times previously also. 
Could this be causing the issues perhaps??

Although I suppose this doesn't explain why the issues were also occurring before we bought it.

Side note: I flooded the hull because the trip before someone had left the bung out of the bilge and we ended up with a whole lot of bloody water and bits of fish etc in the hull. I have also been told that it is good to flood the hull periodically with freshwater to flush out saltwater and help prevent corrosion. 
Is this a wise idea or am I better off just draining the saltwater and leaving it at that??


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Don18025 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 4:47pm
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Gizzy, to clean the tank thoroughly you may have to cut an inspection panel in the top of the tank if it does not have one now. There is no easy method for getting inside a fuel tank and getting everything out of it. If the tank is baffled make the inspection port to cover each side of the baffle.

If you had freshwater in the tank you would spot this when you drain your filter regularly. Always drain your filter into a clear container and any water will show up as a bottom layer. Petrol floats on water. Before you re-install the tank, pressure test it to check for leaks, especially round the new inspection panel that will be screwed down on a gasket.

My guess is that you have something solid in your tank that is blocking the suction tube.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 5:55pm
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Thanks for the heads up about where to buy fuel line. I'll shoot into supercheap
Super cheap IS NOT a Automotive industry supplier, it is where boy racers go to buy elcheapo low quailty chinese BS products...
yeah I go there to get my car wash, polish,(
And I still buy the expensive Megures stuff,) and they do have Timken wheel bearings... and crap chinese ones to...

For the suck side u need quailty Fuel grade vaccuum hose, stainless steel jumble clips.. not the cheap chinese stainless either... chances are your local TRADESMAN automotive work shop will have a supply

Even a baffle tank, once u have the sensor port and inlet port open , u can get inside and blast the crap around....If really want to get into it, mix up a cup of dishwash powder in a gal of hot water pour inside, slosh around and leave for 10 mins to 1/2 hr.. then blast the heel out of the inside as best as can

If want to check for leaks... good idea.. block off all the ports... fill with water, a LIGHTLY pressurise with a vaccuum cleaner that has a blow.....just enough to see the tank expand a little, this will also open any leaks that may occur between a cold winters day and a hot summers day..Use common sence here
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