Help engineers, plumbers etc?

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    Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 4:15pm
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Titanium
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When we moved late last yr, we also took our old spa pool.
I knew not to strap it down too tight on the trailer, but as happens, someone comes along 'checks' tie downs and knicks them up a bit more.
 This slightly distorted one end of the pool...which resulted in  5 of a set of 5 jets leak between the jet and the outer pool wall.

I figured out how to take the jets out.. bit of a mission because of how they where installed at the factory.

Anyway, I was looking at them and the factory install just didnt seem right to me... so contacted the manufacturers and sure enough, how installed is how they still do them.
 In saying that, they did comment that the only issue they have with pools over the decades is leaking between the jet and pool wall...

So Im thinking hmmm.. still recon its wrong.

Now here is the pic they sent...look at it..
note the little dots..
they silicone.. which is not comparable with the jet plastic or the plastic of the pool wall...silcone as a gasket between the outter part of the wall and jet and the threads that water may seep up to get to the jet/ outter wall seal.
And put the rubberises plastic seal in the inside of the pool wall where there is no need to seal at all !!!


Now im no expert.. they are...am I missing something here?

I recon all that is needed is put the gasket on the outside of the wall...forget the sealant/ silcone.
Any sealant/ gasket on the inside...well it cant leak into its self on the inside surface right?
Have they been installing wrong for over the last 3 decades?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KikBac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 4:38pm
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The threaded flange should provide all the waterproofing you need on the pressure side. If not add some thread tape and re-tighten. The gasket is there to stop the 1500L or so of unpressurized water inside the spa leaking back into the lining.Think of the silicon as loc-tite - it is there to stop the flange working itself loose.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Transformations Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 6:13pm
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Agree with kicbac Steps, what does also make a difference is that at the time of install in the factory they hold the flange and gasket still and turn the jet body to tighten it down. That way you are not turning against the friction of the rubber gasket. Once the install is complete there are pipes attached to the body so therefor cannot turn it.
We don't know what we don't need till we've got it
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 8:54am
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Titanium
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The threaded flange should provide all the waterproofing you need on the pressure side.


 Thought about that..The threads are rather loose fit to say the least


The gasket is there to stop the 1500L or so of unpressurized water inside the spa leaking back into the lining.

What water proofing? No lining, just a solid polypropylene or ethylene spa wall

Lets say there is no seal /gasket on the inside.. the water 'leaks between the flange and spa wall...cant go anywhere, cant leak.
IF the seal/ gasket on the outside is secure, then any leak thru threads or the inside flange doesnt matter, they cant get out.

what does also make a difference is that at the time of install in the factory they hold the flange and gasket still and turn the jet body to tighten it down. That way you are not turning against the friction of the rubber gasket.

I sort of guessed something like  that would be the case.
I see no reason why they could not do it the other way round thu..gasket between jet body on the outside, and turn the flange.
Which would be the same as repair a jet leak after jet installed.???

At the end of the day, any leak is only relevant if it leaks to the outside of the spa...and the only place that can happen is between jet body and spa wall... not in the inside wall, that stops nothing
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Transformations Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 10:24am
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Can't fault your logic Steps. Seeing as you are reinstalling it in reverse then the gasket can go on the outside. I would still put either silicone or tape on the thread as well👍
We don't know what we don't need till we've got it
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Transformations Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 10:28am
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BTW, another reason for having the flange static and the body (outside of spa) turned is no tools inside the bath = no scratches 😉
We don't know what we don't need till we've got it
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 5:03pm
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Titanium
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The flange has holes, like the flange that holds a grinding disc on a grinder.. also the jet bit (far left bit) is wider that covers any discrepancies.
The big headache dissembling was the bloody silicone in the bloody thread.. and not knowing it was there. Could feel the silicone give on the gap.. silicone doesnt stick to these types of plastics, but in the thread it sort of rolled.
Because it just didnt feel right, and didnt know what was inside, I took my time working back and forth, slowly and no damage on any of them.. espec the 1st one.

Funny thing is they recommended I get new parts cause they tend to get broken or cracked over the yrs....espec after 20 plus yrs
I wondered why? there is nill deterioration in the components or their surface, no cracks no wear etc...
 I recon they get broken because of how originally assembled , and bull at a gate then removing...

I would still put either silicone or tape on the thread as well👍

Why silicone.. (personally think thread tape would be more suitable) on the threads?
If the gasket is on the outside.. and sealed on the outside...and leak seepage up thru the threads...what possible problem would that cause.. there would be no pressure behind it at all.

Maybe Im a little annal.. or just plain bloody lazy?
I want to get this right the whole 5 of them, 1st time, fill the spa and use it for the next 20/30yrs.
 Not find a seal fails and go thru the exercise again..just lazy

Another question..
 I mentioned the incompatibility of the spa materials and silicone...was thinking , if anything to going to urethane film each side of the gasket maybe the Sika stuff we use in marine application, or the stuff used on chillers and freezer wall seals???


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 4:07pm
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Titanium
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OK this is what has happened and done.
1/Dug a little more foam away so can clean up jet bodies easier and not 'load up ' hoses connections while doing so

 Guess what? !!!!
 That flat surface of the jet body that faces onto the spa wall has a O ring groove in it.. and it matches exactly the biggest O ring in my boxed supply of neoprene O rings.

It seem therefore the gasket does go between the inside of the jet fitting and spa wall..not as a seal but more likely a spacer and make removal easier by not clamping up on its self over time ....

As to sealing the threads, cant see any reason why to.

So I have simply smeared a little  silka marine urethane onto the clean spa jet body groove, pressed the nice fitting O ring in so holds in place.
 A smear of urethane on the cleaned outside spa wall.
 
Set the inner jets and locking ring (not shown on pic)
 screwed the jet flange in...leaving the jet face off for now.
 The jet face pushs in easy and couple expanding clips hold it in place.
Will leave these off till know no leaks in a few days... just makes easier to remove jet bodies with off.

Cant believe that at install they remove O rings and simply fill up everything with silcone???
Either the design of o rings is faulty .. and since these have been manufactured for many decades in the 'states, used all around the world.. that I doubt.

What I recon is initially they have been installed, and cranked up real tight because the person has not been instructed  that to do so, will deform/ roll the O ring and will leak...
Then drawn up their own instructions and inaccurate  pic (above) and that been the practice for the next few decades..

Appreciate all the comments above guys...
I was doubting my non professional  logic over their 'professional' install instructions.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 4:33pm
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Spa party at yours now aye Steps?
Good work!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 11:22am
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Titanium
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Yep next time you are passing thru with a nice cray m8.Thumbs Up

That last one and the snap was greatly appreciated when I was crook.
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