Collusion, corruption, contradictions and cover up

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Originally posted by herby herby wrote:

Originally posted by mowerman mowerman wrote:


I top the list for turn up at MPI meeting...where were the rest of you ..on fish. net giving pugwash a hard time ? or in TZERS case hes just trying to prove hes a man LOL by trolling
 
 
quote Barry ...".We all need to do something not point the finger at the commercial all the time "
 
What can anyone say ? ....how did the fisheries get to the plight they are in ..
 




You don't think you're confusing 'trolling' with 'pointing out the numerous flaws in your arguments'?

What did turning up at an MPI meeting achieve?
I'm just trying to get my head around what's actually being / been done apart from writing poorly worded opinion pieces, saying that MPI abd the QMS suck. Doesn't seem overly productive.


"What did turning up at an MPI meeting achieve?"
You are right in asking this. One person turning up achieves nothing. However, how many people recreationally fish/dive in Auckland? Tens of thousands? If just two thousand had turned up to each of those meetings they may have achieved something. Mowerman may go on a little. Sometimes repeating himself ad nauseam. Some of the points/information he puts forward are valid and do not deserve the ridicule being thrown his way. The man is obviously passionate about fish stocks and the damage being done to them by mismanagement and a flawed QMS scheme as well as some back room machinations to gain control over valuable recreational fishing areas. Sometimes deliberate and sometimes accidental. If thousands more had his passion then things may just change. His anger at recreational fishers apathy is understandable. We will get what we deserve. One way or another.
As an aside. Do you consider there is a problem with The QMS and the part it has played in the depletion of fish stocks? If you consider it has played a part, are you concerned? If you are concerned, what have you, if anything, done about it? Either as an individual or in a group/organization.
Take care.
Cheers
Graham
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Quote Mowerman. Where were the rest of you...on fishnet giving Pugwash a hard time.

Says it all . Many months have passed since the Pushwash era and not a week goes by without him being brought up in topics .and usually in a poor light. And he is not on here to defend himself.
Almost cultism.
And yet it is without doubt that some of his fishery management posts saw near record views and buoyed overall viewing on the site. That has to be good. Can only conclude from that there is more interest in fishery management than given credit for. Then it all turned to custard-a big bun fight involving both sides,achieving nothing.rest is history. Then came the unreasoned attacks that seem to happen to those who  have a concern for fishery management,and  that includes this thread as well.
So why. There is huge and mounting evidence that all is not well with our fishery.
Posters are being asked ,what are they going to do about it. Thinking about it is a good start. Action follows thought.
There is no instant solution as many expect in a world where  things  happen "NOW"
The answer and solution will come step by step. It will take a while.
IMO the best thing to do right now is support the petition from LEGASEA for an independent inquiry. All it takes is a click. Tell others about it. If numbers signing the petition are significant then the Media will run with it, more revelation will follow ,public will be more informed and informed public means informed voters. At that point expect some action from higher up the food chain.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote mowerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2016 at 6:23pm
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Why do I go on....well banging a head on a brick wall hurts
Yes I repeat myself ( as it appears some have no eyes or ears )
 
Yes I get sick of the usual few that try to make me sound like an idiot ,but they lack foresight and are narrow minded ,Fish.net is and excellent web site.
Pulling people apart is to achieve ? ( to try make you look good eg Im the man !! Saw what went with pugwash..I never commented or got involved ,but it still the same few that want a piece of me , Im used to it as its been on going for as long as can remember .( plus will give the stick back ) but honestly some trying to be "the man" makes themselves look silly
 
Now someone will pull this apart and highlight it with their "opinions "
If that's the only way you can be a man ..go for it .. 

We are all in this on the ground floor together...protect what we have got or its gone ..thats from fish to eco systems

Picking the eyes out of it is destroy the balance ..extinction is forever 

 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote herby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2016 at 11:35am
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

 
As an aside. Do you consider there is a problem with The QMS and the part it has played in the depletion of fish stocks? If you consider it has played a part, are you concerned? If you are concerned, what have you, if anything, done about it? Either as an individual or in a group/organization.

Of course I think there is a problem with the QMS. 
Fundamentally I think the QMS is reasonably well thought out, but a lot of the issues come down to a huge reluctance by MPI (and the equivalent agencies before) to change TACCs in response to stock level fluctuations, or new science.  
There are plenty of holes that can be picked in it, but think for a moment, what our situation be if we had NO fisheries management, which seems to be the option proposed my many, by default. So many people scream "Scrap the QMS" but offer no alternative. If the government listened to them we'd all be screwed.


 
 
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Originally posted by herby herby wrote:

Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

 
As an aside. Do you consider there is a problem with The QMS and the part it has played in the depletion of fish stocks? If you consider it has played a part, are you concerned? If you are concerned, what have you, if anything, done about it? Either as an individual or in a group/organization.

Of course I think there is a problem with the QMS. 
Fundamentally I think the QMS is reasonably well thought out, but a lot of the issues come down to a huge reluctance by MPI (and the equivalent agencies before) to change TACCs in response to stock level fluctuations, or new science.  
There are plenty of holes that can be picked in it, but think for a moment, what our situation be if we had NO fisheries management, which seems to be the option proposed my many, by default. So many people scream "Scrap the QMS" but offer no alternative. If the government listened to them we'd all be screwed.
 
 


Yes your right herby, I've been saying this for quite sometime. No real creditable solutions are being put forward by the doom & gloom merchants. Legasea's calling for a commission of inquiry, other than perhaps highlighting some systemic failures, what it wont most likely say is how to fix the problem long term. What if a commission of enquiry doesn't find that there is as big an issue as being made by those calling for it, what then?
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Originally posted by herby herby wrote:

Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

 
As an aside. Do you consider there is a problem with The QMS and the part it has played in the depletion of fish stocks? If you consider it has played a part, are you concerned? If you are concerned, what have you, if anything, done about it? Either as an individual or in a group/organization.


Of course I think there is a problem with the QMS. 
Fundamentally I think the QMS is reasonably well thought out, but a lot of the issues come down to a huge reluctance by MPI (and the equivalent agencies before) to change TACCs in response to stock level fluctuations, or new science.  
There are plenty of holes that can be picked in it, but think for a moment, what our situation be if we had NO fisheries management, which seems to be the option proposed my many, by default. So many people scream "Scrap the QMS" but offer no alternative. If the government listened to them we'd all be screwed.


 
 


I for one have never called for the scrapping of the QMS. Not sure many have. Many have called for the removal of trawlers from breeding areas. However, where trawlers fish is not part of the QMS. I have had discussions with MPI at the meetings with regards to changes within the system. The same when I contact MPI directly, politicians and the media. The system is flawed. Human nature does the rest. It is human nature that is resisting any calls to make changes to the incumbent system. It is human nature that is manipulating the system from quota holders all the way down the line. It is human nature that is stopping the authors and maintainers of the QMS from admitting they have got parts of it wrong.
The QMS has not been a complete failure. However there are areas that need changing, adding to or removing all together.
I personally believe the first and biggest mistake made was to allow quota to become a tradable commodity.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote JW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2016 at 1:12pm
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And you'd normally have a strong media to keep those human flaws in check - case in point if you want to look further afield is Sam Allardyce. 

Greed left unchecked leads to what we have. Complete dysfunction and no accountability. Weak media means nobody accountable. Shuffle the deckchairs and back to BAU.

Comment above if the government listened to the people we'd be screwed is not correct.

We are screwed, because instead of listening and acting they have denied, denied, denied, and obfuscated any prosecutions - now we finally see the people in charge knew dumping was an issue all along that they have never been able to fix. They just chose to lie through their teeth and try to hide the facts.

In spite of that, they have based quota on catch figures they have always known to be wildly incorrect. It is more by luck than any judgement or sound management that more parts of the fishery are not already completely screwed. Simply, there are not enough of us living down this way to have screwed it yet but if you want to look inshore, the BOP snapper stocks sitting at 6% should serve as a warning for what's to come when you base quota on bullsh*t data. 

The financial incentive needs to go back onto the quota owner to be a steward of that quota and not the guy out there catching the quota for them. These fat cats who are already inside the tent making the rules and shafting everyone, not least the fishery.
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Originally posted by mowerman mowerman wrote:

Plus the unwarranted destruction of non target species as played a major part reducing all fish stocks

Non selectivity of methods
Spawning areas
Spawning seasons
Habitat destruction

Equals
Fish gone

Money money..backhanders to government

 Mower Man. You missed the biggest flaw in the QMS system by a million miles, While all of the above are all partial issues the main issue still lies with the initial design around which it was built. They gave ownership of quota which equates to money, and now days that monetary value has gone through the roof. that's going to be a hard nut to crack and a very costly one at that if at all possible...

 While no doubt there are back handers going on like in all industries and GOVT',s until they can overcome the ownership issues there's not going to be a massive amount of change. 

 Like all on here I am not a fisheries management expert. But I can read and filter the **** from the water so to speak. the he said she said crap that's going on is effectively playing into the stake holders hands... rule by division is a very effective tool. 
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Originally posted by hookerpuka hookerpuka wrote:

Originally posted by mowerman mowerman wrote:

Plus the unwarranted destruction of non target species as played a major part reducing all fish stocks

Non selectivity of methods
Spawning areas
Spawning seasons
Habitat destruction

Equals
Fish gone

Money money..backhanders to government

 Mower Man. You missed the biggest flaw in the QMS system by a million miles, While all of the above are all partial issues the main issue still lies with the initial design around which it was built. They gave ownership of quota which equates to money, and now days that monetary value has gone through the roof. that's going to be a hard nut to crack and a very costly one at that if at all possible...

 While no doubt there are back handers going on like in all industries and GOVT',s until they can overcome the ownership issues there's not going to be a massive amount of change. 

 Like all on here I am not a fisheries management expert. But I can read and filter the **** from the water so to speak. the he said she said crap that's going on is effectively playing into the stake holders hands... rule by division is a very effective tool. 

Opinion: The fishing fiasco - the anatomy of MPI's public relations disaster
Friday 30 Sep 2016 4:31 p.m.

Dolphin

By Michael Morrah

It all started with a 23-page report.

Titled Operation Achilles, the details within it were nothing short of scandalous. MPI's compliance investigators had cracking evidence of illegal behaviour and wanted to swoop. But senior management stopped that from happening.

It appears that some within MPI hoped the 2013 report would never see the light of day – officials knew Kiwis hated hearing about precious resources being wasted. Even more damaging was the fact they’d already made a decision to let the offending skippers off the hook.

The Achilles report released publicly by Newshub

But the details did of course go public. Cue the attempts to downplay the report’s significance, and the monotonous reassurances from top officials who insisted that MPI takes illegal activity seriously.

John Key backs MPI minister despite fish dumping inaction
Investigation finds MPI's fish dumping decision flawed
MPI 'up to their necks' in fish dumping scandal
Email shows MPI feared prosecuting fish dumpers
Exclusive: MPI reports reveal widespread illegal dumping of fish
Even after it was established by a leading QC that MPI had for years failed to enforce the law, the response from leading politicians was lacklustre and pathetic.

What's really worrying is that the denials of a serious problem have only continued. Prime Minister John Key thinks Minister Nathan Guy has done a "good job", and Nathan Guy, while "disappointed" with MPI's failure to prosecute, thinks it’ll all be okay because we’re putting industry-owned cameras on boats.

Let’s be clear about what’s happened here – MPI has been busted misleading the public for years about illegal fishing practices in the commercial sector.

The behind-the-scenes deals:

Not only did Achilles document in meticulous fashion the “widespread” illegal dumping of fish on five vessels, it gave an insight into MPI’s approach to such behaviour. The Ministry’s own investigator, clearly worried about the agency’s response to such offending in the past, wrote the following:

“As I understand it the Ministry has previously ignored dumping…because an assurance has been given to the vessels…that all such offending that was seen would be disregarded and no prosecution action taken”.

The report went on to talk about how damaging it could be if the public found out, because MPI had known about the issues with illegal dumping “for years and would appear to have done little to combat it”. It also warned that this “would be very difficult to explain and unpleasant at best.”

It sounded very much like a cover up, and as predicted, it has indeed been unpleasant.

Email trail reveals the truth:

One of the emails released in the Heron report

When the first extracts of Achilles became public, MPI's senior officials were quick to discredit what had been said. There were strenuous public denials about the existence of any sort of assurance or deal that had been carved out with commercial skippers.

It was only a "preliminary" investigation and "there were some misunderstandings", MPI’s Deputy Director General, Scott Gallacher, insisted in May.

It’s difficult to see how there could have been misunderstandings. Skippers on five vessels had illegally dumped large quantities of fish – in full view of MPI’s cameras. There was some kind of assurance given to skippers, and despite blunt messages from MPI's own compliance team to prosecute, no action was taken.

Fish-dumping caught on camera

Michael Heron QC found out why. When he scoured through the internal emails of MPI’s senior managers, it was discovered there was fear that prosecuting fishermen when there had been talk of “implied immunity” would ruin MPI’s camera trial and upset skippers. MPI wanted to ensure it had "buy-in" from the industry in the future. Given the promises made to skippers, they also didn’t want to be embarrassed in court.

Then there were the incredibly candid comments from the Director of Fisheries Management, Dave Turner, in an email to colleagues in 2014. This email dispensed with the spin we'd been sold for years about the dumping problem and revealed what officials really knew.

According to Turner, dumping was a "systemic failure of the current system… Fisheries Management can't quantify the tonnages involved but we suspect they are significant to the point that they are impacting on stocks." He goes on to say that if they found a golden bullet to stop dumping "we would probably put half of the inshore fleet out of business overnight".

These comments were not flippant remarks. They were written in an email at ten o'clock in the morning by the guy who is in charge of fisheries management for New Zealand. Any subsequent attempts by the Minister to explain such comments away as an "exaggeration" are disingenuous at best in my view.

MPI’s public explanations were wrong:

Sadly, the truth only came out after MPI was forced into a corner.

As it transpired, even the initial explanations given for not taking a prosecution turned out to be completely wrong. There were contradictory statements ranging from "unfortunately, we didn’t have enough evidence" to "our legal advice was we couldn’t prosecute".

Yes, apparently MPI could not prosecute because incredibly they had legal advice that the footage investigators had of dolphins being netted and fish being dumped couldn’t be used in court.

Dave Turner stated in May: "We ended up with a legal opinion that we could not prosecute the fishermen for discarding the fish because the cameras had been placed on the vessels for the purposes of a monitoring trial in regard to protected species."

MPI now accepts "that information was wrong", but won't explain who passed on the wrong information or why it failed to correct it. Nor will they reveal what the legal advice actually said. How is it possible that MPI's top fisheries officials were supplied with incorrect information, which was then regurgitated publicly during multiple interviews with journalists?

I think I know why. They hoped that explanation would stick, and that would end the matter - the public spotlight would eventually fizzle away.

Ignoring illegal activity not isolated to a single operation:

I understand that at least in the case of Operation Achilles in 2013, MPI management were trying to get skippers onside so they could trial their camera technology. The intention of the operation was to see if protected species like Hectors and Maui Dolphins were being caught in trawl nets.

A dolphin caught in a net

But there's also evidence of dumping being ignored in 2009 during another major operation to study the same interactions.

Emails show compliance officers had witnessed substantial dumping of fish on half of the 42 vessels they’d been monitoring. The compliance team was right to try and do their job – but they got blocked by senior managers. Specifically, it was the then National Manager of Fisheries Compliance, Andrew Coleman, who put an end to any prosecution. In an email, Coleman wrote, “I expect no action to be taken in relation to this report”. Yes, a direction was given from the top to ignore illegal activity. No wonder a rift has developed over the years between frontline compliance officers and their bosses.

How many other operations are there like those carried out in 2009 and in 2013? We can only assume there are more.

Commercial operators not solely to blame:

Not all commercial fishermen are wasteful operators. Many skippers and crews I’ve met take their jobs very seriously, they want fish in the water for their children, and they dread killing anything unnecessarily. I know this from spending time on trawl boats. Others, I know, are cowboys who could not care less about waste.

Time and time again when I speak to commercial fishermen and ask them about dumping they say it’s the rules that encourage illegal behaviour. If you have to pay a penalty fee (deem value) for catching a fish you don’t have quota for, no wonder quality species are being biffed overboard. The skippers don’t want to incur hefty fines. Not that that excuses illegal activity, it doesn’t. The law is there for a reason but there’s no incentive for fishermen to follow it.

One skipper interviewed as part of the Achilles investigation appeared to be fed up with acting illegally. He told an investigator he’s “sick of being a bloody criminal. Let’s tidy up the act, but I don’t believe it's just the fishermen’s problem.” That’s a fair call. The big companies that demand a particular size and quality of fish must also accept responsibility. And of course, it’s MPI's problem too - a problem by their own admission they’ve failed to manage.

Public credibility of utmost importance:

What we know is for many years illegal activity was being ignored because MPI's senior managers wanted to build up a positive relationship with commercial operators. Attempts to prosecute were blocked.

But the real problem for MPI is that they never attempted to be transparent about any of this. In fact, they did the reverse. For years MPI has insisted that dumping isn’t much of a problem.

Yet privately, managers clearly knew how bad it was. Even four months ago the Minister was still rolling out that classic line of New Zealand fisheries PR – that our quota management system is "world leading". It’s the humdinger of generic answers, but it’s a statement that has clearly never had any substance. MPI still insists it has a “robust” fisheries management system. But I think there needs to be real organisational change and accountability before anyone will believe that.

Stop the spin, MPI. You’ve been well and truly caught out. 

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Industry, MPI, and government are making huge efforts to confuse the general population about how decimated our inshore fisheries are. They figure that the % of the population that know they are being misleading/lying is small enough that they can get away with it without hurting themselves too much at the poling booth. What is really needed is a significant and constant campaign using the evidence available about our fisheries management to expose what the government is doing. Focus on the potential corruption and deliberate misleading of the public rather than the actual fisheries management. As long as the only issue is shrinking fisheries there isn't enough general public interest. Make the issue about corruption and deception then there will be plenty of public interest.
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