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    Posted: 18 Jan 2021 at 4:21pm
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Hi. I'm new to boating and live in Auckland. What size boat would I need to comfortably get out to and around Waiheke from Auckland? Looking at a Buccaneer 480 with 115hp engine at the moment. Likely to be 4 people on board at times.

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ecko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2021 at 6:09pm
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The boat will handle that fine. Inner gulf around Waiheke from CBD is very manageable on a nice day for many boats. I started with a 5.3 Fi Glass Firestar with 90HP on the back.
You'll find a 480 very cosy with 4 people. With 3 adults in our Firestar we were tripping over each other. Depends on the layout of the boat though.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2021 at 6:15pm
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I've been from Bucklands Beach to Waiheke then right around Rangitoto in a 12 ft dinghy. No dramas on a good day. That boat will give you many good fishing adventures but as always, skipper knowledge and the weather will play a part. Do a Day Skippers course with Coastguard and you will be fine. Four people is getting crowded on a boat that size but if the weathers good and you know your boat, you will be fine
Best gurnard fisherman in my street
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2021 at 7:02pm
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Bang on, Smudge and Ecko.

I have a LOA 4.65m Fish City runabout and take it all around the inner gulf IN THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. i regularly go to the 'bottom end' of Waiheke and out into the Firth of Thames. I've not circumnavigated Waiheke, but it wouldn't be a problem - just need to take a spare fuel tank.

Some spots, such as the Motuihe Channel, are notorious for cutting up rough when it's tide versus strong SW wind. Watch out for the rising winds in the afternoon around Auckland and plan your trip accordingly. Take extra fuel to cope for a long, slow, trip home.

It's not that you're at serious risk if you're sensible with loading in the boat, and know how to steer in the conditions, it'll just be a very uncomfortable trip home at times.

4 people would be a full boat at 4.8m (certainly if that's 4 adults), but at least the forum member Steps will be happy that you seem to be well powered at 115hp.  


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2021 at 7:45pm
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Hehe yeah it will be well powered alright and Steps is 100% right on that front. My boat is underpowered and I would love another 20 to 50% more hp!

I have always been of the opinion that small boats teach you how to fish. I believe that 110%

Lots of percentages here Smudge - are you on the Lion Browns??
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catzpa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 8:40am
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Thanks for the nice quick advice folks. May have to think about a slightly bigger boat and will definitely be doing the training.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 9:13am
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You say ""What size boat would I need to comfortably get out to and around Waiheke".
That sea can be very rough - because there is strong tidal flow through the channels between islands; which, when combined with wind, can cause a rough short chop. Its nasty, and it comes up with quite light wind speed (eg 7 knots).

Often, wind is very low in the morning, so you are happy to take the boat out. Then , during afternoon, often the chop gets up, and you are faced with a hard ride home. 

Keen fishers, tend to put up with the hard ride; but I think people who go out not for fishing but mainly boating, will hate it in a 4.8m boat. 

Generally, the longer the boat, the softer the ride.

Basically, I recommend getting something longer. Even say 5.3m would be noticeably better. My boat is 5.3m, and I am very envious of the 6m+ boats.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 9:48am
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Boat size doesnt really matter..in regards to the area.
 As per several experiences above.
 What does matter is
1/well powered. basically a 4.5m to 6.5m normal load will reach 42 mph WoT on flat water.. And when hit chop can set throttle a plough thru without loosing the plain.
2/ The weather window for going out, while out and for several hrs after intend to return back to ramp.
3/ Being a aware  of the direction of tides and currents, times tides change for that area and wind direction and changes.
 It maybe a flat day, say off bottom end waikeke out of Pakatoa or Ponui...gentle northerly breeze, incoming tide, 1/2 hr later tide changes and she can chop up real bad. Yet head down the Waiheke channel and will be dead flat.
 Or up at the bottom end, wind picks up and/or chances to a westerly, you head down Waikeke channel, stick you nose out into the bottom end of tamaki channel and a 8 min crossing can turn into a 55 min crossing with tops waves breaking at shoulder level.
 Be a bit under powered, you will chew thru a heap of fuel, not a place to run out out in the middle there.

What Also does matter is having a suitable size boat for the number of people and use.
 Generally a 5.5m cabin will suit max 3 adults fishing or 2 adults and 2 children . After that do able but gets cramped.
4 adults fishing on is getting up around the 6m.

We have fished around Bottom end /firth.. been out over night many times... often fish the evening come in late at night, for near on 10yrs 25/35 trips per yr.
5.5m Commander .. started out with well but min powered 115hp which was ok.. eventually upgraded to a 150 hp, bit over powered, a 140 was what was intended.

Again cant emphasis enough, know your weather , and current directions.
We have used many weather sources over the yrs,and still cross reference, and look retrospectively, Swellmap maps base on NZ own Ocean Met Data (not American or british or Aussie) is outstanding out to 3 datys, very good to 5 and excellent indicator to 7 days... with 2 or 3 hrly updates..
 Also the map tiles are very small now so localised predictions of say swells , rain, wind take into account tides and currents.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Grunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 9:48am
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As others have noted, it's less boat length and much more about what conditions you are out in, where you are going, how the boat is loaded, how much freeboard, boat handling etc. Obviously the bigger the vessel the more flexibility you have around conditions but Buccaneer 480 with 115hp would do the job in the right weather.

I started with a 1/5th share in a Figlass fireball and we fished & dived all round the Gulf. We had some hairy moments in that thing but then I've also had similar feelings of imminent doom in a 48' Riv in the Colville channel!

Rapidly changing conditions and nasty wind/tide combos are your enemy, especially in places like the Motuihe channel.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 11:27am
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

...
1/well powered. basically a 4.5m to 6.5m normal load will reach 42 mph WoT on flat water.. And when hit chop can set throttle a plough thru without loosing the plain.



Don't want to hijack the thread, but that 42mph speed is an eye opener to me, Steps. 

Top speed in my 4.65m ali runabout with 40hp 4 stroke is nowhere near that. Reading the indicated speed on my Garmin, the top speed I've got up to is 48/49 kmph (30 mph) at pretty much full throttle on flat water, with the supplied prop.

Figures I've seen from a test/review in NZ Fishing News for the same boat in CC format were similar.

The manufacturer's recommended (warranty) range for the boat is 40-60hp, and I've thought the 40 was adequate for my needs, which is 1 person most of the time, sometimes 2 - rarely 2 plus 2 small children.

But from your number above, I seem to be well under power?



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Sufishent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 11:51am
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Originally posted by The Tamure Kid The Tamure Kid wrote:

Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

...
1/well powered. basically a 4.5m to 6.5m normal load will reach 42 mph WoT on flat water.. And when hit chop can set throttle a plough thru without loosing the plain.



Don't want to hijack the thread, but that 42mph speed is an eye opener to me, Steps. 

Top speed in my 4.65m ali runabout with 40hp 4 stroke is nowhere near that. Reading the indicated speed on my Garmin, the top speed I've got up to is just under 48/49 kmph (30 mph) at pretty much full throttle on flat water, with the supplied prop.

Figures I've seen from a test/review in NZ Fishing News for the same boat in CC format were similar.

The manufacturer's recommended (warranty) range for the boat is 40-60hp, and I've thought the 40 was adequate for my needs, which is 1 person most of the time, sometimes 2 - rarely 2 plus 2 small children.

But from your number above, I seem to be well under power?


Me too - I'm hoping that's a typo as I have the same size boat with a 40HP 2s and top speed for me is 54km/h, 1 pob, flat as water and trimmed right up :)

I'd need to put a 60HP+ onto mine to achieve those speeds.

Not sure about your boat Lester, but if I hit chop at my top speed I will a) break my back and b) then get thrown overboard.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 12:00pm
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Originally posted by Sufishent Sufishent wrote:

Originally posted by The Tamure Kid The Tamure Kid wrote:

Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

...
1/well powered. basically a 4.5m to 6.5m normal load will reach 42 mph WoT on flat water.. And when hit chop can set throttle a plough thru without loosing the plain.






Me too - I'm hoping that's a typo as I have the same size boat with a 40HP 2s and top speed for me is 54km/h, 1 pob, flat as water and trimmed right up :)

I'd need to put a 60HP+ onto mine to achieve those speeds.

Not sure about your boat Lester, but if I hit chop at my top speed I will a) break my back and b) then get thrown overboard.

Now I'm finally starting to see why we all need a big 1970s Commander! Wink

In all seriousness, I don't think it's a typo, but ditto - I would not be riding into serious chop at anywhere near my top speed, even if it was possible to maintain that hull speed. And my FC is regarded as a relatively soft riding hull (as far as tinny's of that size go)... 

FC list the cruise speed for my boat as approx. 25 mph (40 kmph), which I've consistently achieved in good conditions, and approx. top speed of 32 mph (51 kmph) - I've come up a couple of ks short of that, but that's way way short of Steps' number.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 4:43pm
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Top speed is just an indicator of well powered, not min powered.
Principle applies to most things, tractors , bulldozers, truck airplanes and the wifes shopping basket car.
A min powered , say tractor, ploughing a field, hits a a paddocks thats varies in hard soil.. or wifes car goes up a slope, or a boat hits chop...
One has to play with gears and /or throttles rather than have enough reserve power in the lower rpms to simply go over the 'hump'

One will most properly never have the use to travel at full speed in any of these.. it is just an unfortunate side effect of have good reserve power right thru the usable rpm, range.

I would not be riding into serious chop at my top speed,
 No nor do I I have a top speed of just on 50 mph
Flat day with bit of swell off the west coast a cruise around 32 mph
A fast cruise around 3900 rpms about 38/39 mph
 And bit of chop at the wrong angle off the west coast anything from 18 to 22mph
 But at each of these can set the throttle and forget, at a speed that is comfortable and not pound the hull.
 
 And good reserve power right thru the rpm range makes a hull/ car/ plane, truck handle very well and very comfortable when the going gets rough.

You will note that if take the hp range of most boats, their top hp will usually produce around 42 to 45 mph..

Also a well powered boat uses less fuel.. you have a different prop.. couple more or so inches in the pitch.. which means for the same speed less rpms.
 And because of the added reserve power the engine is working less as hard with less throttle...If you are temped to still run at the same cruise speeds as before... or run a few more rpms as before, use the same amount fuel as before at higher speeds.





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Post Options Post Options   Likes (4) Likes(4)   Quote OuttaHere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 6:48pm
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As above, I have to disagree with the figures around "good power" when it comes to smaller, predominantly aluminium boats. They're fishing boats, built for space, stability, and load carrying capacity, not speed.

Our rig (Stabi 1550/4.7m, Suzuki 70hp 4 stroke) has the largest outboard Stabi would warranty on the transom at the time (they will now allow a Yamaha 75) and we top out at about 55kph. 42mph from this hull would probably require about 90hp on the back which is bonkers. The boat handles great, I have never felt like it needed more power.

See if you can find a review of an alloy boat under 5m that will do 42mph, even with motors at the upper end of the HP range for the hull.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote clank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 7:36pm
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I started with a 5 mtr boat. Within a few months, cut my losses, sold it for a 6mtr, a few years later went to 7mtrs, a few more years went to 8mtrs and now 12.5mtrs so I know there is lots of for’s and against’s and compromises in all sizes. There is no right or wrong and all good adventures and memories.

I do think you might get frustrated with anything under 6mtrs to go around Waiheke with enough flexibility with the weather and numbers on board.

That said, there is heaps of reasons to go smaller. Tow vehicle, fuel economy, places you want to launch, within budget, storage, etc etc but for getting out past bays and estuaries I would say go as big as you can that can still tick those boxes.

There is no right answer though.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 8:45pm
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Originally posted by clank clank wrote:

I started with a 5 mtr boat. Within a few months, cut my losses, sold it for a 6mtr, a few years later went to 7mtrs, a few more years went to 8mtrs and now 12.5mtrs so I know there is lots of for’s and against’s and compromises in all sizes. There is no right or wrong and all good adventures and memories.

I do think you might get frustrated with anything under 6mtrs to go around Waiheke with enough flexibility with the weather and numbers on board.

That said, there is heaps of reasons to go smaller. Tow vehicle, fuel economy, places you want to launch, within budget, storage, etc etc but for getting out past bays and estuaries I would say go as big as you can that can still tick those boxes.

There is no right answer though.

Great post, Clank. As a small boat owner, I sometimes dream of a big boat for offshore missions, but then remind myself why I bought the boat I did and why it makes me happy - as you very nicely summed up, every boat is a compromise.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2021 at 9:14pm
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Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

As above, I have to disagree with the figures around "good power" when it comes to smaller, predominantly aluminium boats. They're fishing boats, built for space, stability, and load carrying capacity, not speed.

Our rig (Stabi 1550/4.7m, Suzuki 70hp 4 stroke) has the largest outboard Stabi would warranty on the transom at the time (they will now allow a Yamaha 75) and we top out at about 55kph. 42mph from this hull would probably require about 90hp on the back which is bonkers. The boat handles great, I have never felt like it needed more power.

See if you can find a review of an alloy boat under 5m that will do 42mph, even with motors at the upper end of the HP range for the hull.

Bang (no pun intended) on.

The NZ Fishing News review of the brand new FC465 CC a couple of months ago, they had a Merc 60 CT 4 stroke with a 12" pitch prop and with two big blokes on board on flat water got a top speed of 30mph (48kmph) at 6000rpm.

they cruised at 20mph (32kmph) at 4200rpm and the reviewer (veteran reviewer and fishing writer Sam Mossman) was happy with that for the type of boat and its use. 
AT 4000rpm they used 8.8 litres an hour, and 5000rpm (24mph) 14.8 litres/hr. At 6000rpm they were using 21.3 litres/hr.

As I said above, 60hp is the top of the recommended manufacturer range for the 465 (40-60hp). I think the CC is probably a bit heavier than my runabout configuration, but not a bad guide to what can be achieved. 

Steps, if you come back to your old Tamaki Strait haunts for a visit I'll give you a friendly wave as you zoom past me!! 

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I started off my boating career with a 10ft tinny and by Christ it taught me a lot, full of holes and flipped it a couple of times but I wouldn’t change the experiences I had with it. I went through a few slightly bigger boats and now have a 5.6 Seaforce with a 140hp Suzuki on the back. The boat max power is supposed to be 115 but the boat builder approved the 140 as its within the weight limit. I agree with Steps regarding the power, mine does over 40 kts but I rarely do that. It’s the reserve power and grunt that makes the hull perform really well and the economy is excellent. I really don’t think I will ever go for a bigger boat as it does everything I want it to do and gives me the flexibility to go different places and launch on my own in any situation. I guess it’s a case of getting what you can afford and getting the best out of it. It’s more a case of getting to know how the weather works in the places you fish and picking your days. At the end of the day being on the water is what it’s all about.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2021 at 11:07am
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What hp you put on is not determined by boat size to be well powered to handle unexpected crap that will happen..
 What determines the Hp to well power a trailer planing hull is the gross weight on the water.
 Most  cabin boats around the 5.5m mark are around 1100 to 1300kg  including gear a 3 guys ave weight 75/80kg with 50 to 100L on board.
 Older alloy tend to be lighter because back then used thinner sheets for construction.
 eg a 6m Fryan is about 1200kg gross weight. Put 150hp on it and will hit 50mph
Put a 150 on a5.5m rayglass also will do around 50 mph
 And same with a commander..
All of these put 115 hp they perform well.. but as others also comment .. WHO HAVE ACTUALLY  RE POWERED BOATS...hit that bad chop, or just going over wakes. 140hp makes a huge difference, even with normal use. Its like having a completely different boat, totally.

If you want to get little adventurous around the inner gulf islands, being  min or under powered will get you home nps. take your time and will not be a pleasant trip to say the least, espec if have the missus on board...
Even then , knowing the weather forecast, tides, current directions, you can leave it 30 mins to late and have a nasty chop come up to get home. That few extra hp makes a huge difference, even to the safty of your family/ crew.

 Oh and the reason we went the old Commander route..
We intended to do over nighters.. a buccaneer 635 has about the same size cabin, well powered a 200hp. we could not afford that option nor could we get it down the drive and be able to turn it into a parked position.
 Worked very well around the gulf, espec when re powered.
 Now we are going over west coast bars...hull work exceptionally well being well powered for bars and going into the SW swells.  but limited to 3 fishing comfortably.
 Since boat use has changed , considering  going to something with more deck space, and bit more hull in the water... 6 / 6.5m  and still very easy for solo launch and retrieve.

 My 1st boat was in 1972 a 17'  fleetline bonacord .. nearly 50yrs ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2021 at 11:47am
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

What hp you put on is not determined by boat size to be well powered to handle unexpected crap that will happen..
 What determines the Hp to well power a trailer planing hull is the gross weight on the water.
 Most  cabin boats around the 5.5m mark are around 1100 to 1300kg  including gear a 3 guys ave weight 75/80kg with 50 to 100L on board.
 Older alloy tend to be lighter because back then used thinner sheets for construction.
 eg a 6m Fryan is about 1200kg gross weight. Put 150hp on it and will hit 50mph
Put a 150 on a5.5m rayglass also will do around 50 mph
 And same with a commander..
All of these put 115 hp they perform well.. but as others also comment .. WHO HAVE ACTUALLY  RE POWERED BOATS...hit that bad chop, or just going over wakes. 140hp makes a huge difference, even with normal use. Its like having a completely different boat, totally.

If you want to get little adventurous around the inner gulf islands, being  min or under powered will get you home nps. take your time and will not be a pleasant trip to say the least, espec if have the missus on board...
Even then , knowing the weather forecast, tides, current directions, you can leave it 30 mins to late and have a nasty chop come up to get home. That few extra hp makes a huge difference, even to the safty of your family/ crew.


With all due respect to your expertise in this area Steps, what motor a boat owner leaves on - at least when they buy a boat new, and/or the boat is under warranty and they'd like that warranty honoured if something goes wrong - is a motor within the manufacturer's stated range!
end of story.

And as noted, the manufacturer's HP ratings for most smaller ali boats appear to not be anywhere near the power you suggest they should be for the weight of the boat - to generate the speeds you quote. There seems to be a disparity between your views and the manufacturers' about what is appropriate for their boats to be sold with and warranted with.

Sure, re-powering to fit the reserve power scenario you speak of is something people can do if they buy an older boat well out of its warranty period, or if they don't care to remain within the warranty conditions. I assume most of us would prefer more power, but are realistic about balancing that with other considerations. For example, if I was going to be taking the kids out on a biscuit all the time, I'd have likely chosen to pay more for a 60hp motor rather than the 40hp. And one day, I might upgrade when my boys are bigger.

circling back, the person who started this thread can weigh up that as part of their deliberation about various boats.
But for the rest of us, we can only dream of the wind in our hair at 42mph!



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