Transducer placement

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    Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 4:47pm
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Anyone care to offer opinion as to the reason/s for this.

No clear view of bottom when planning including 'on again/off again depth reading. 
I have by trial and error obtained an excellent image by using a gadget that allows easy vertical movement of the transducer and set it below the level of hull bottom. But my planning view is, although a little better, still quite unacceptable

Could this be the cause? The bung for the Stbd air chamber 
Unit is Lowrance Elite7. Boat Fi-Glass Warrior.
Cheers


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 4:52pm
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A view showing the underside of the hull and the transducer would be good.  In a lot of cases it's something on the hull causing the issue, especially as I think you are saying it works well at rest but badly when moving.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote AdAstra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 5:12pm
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Best I can do with small camera in awkward position. Focus is not the best!
Look pretty clear to me though.

 
Here's another from flatter angle of transom

 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 8:23pm
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It isn't the bung causing it. Doesn't appear to be anything on the hull bottom either. Positioning out from hull centre looks to be OK. So a few things to check -
1) Have you set up or tried playing with the filters in your depth sounder to minimise surface nose?
2) Is the face of the transducer angled slightly forward?
3) Have you got the right transducer selected in the depth sounder options and the right frequency and right power setting?

If all that is OK and the transducer is good then you are looking at a possible 'cavitation' issue as the water flows off the bottom face of the hull. What happens as you plane along is the water under the hull rises rapidly behind the hull and the transducer face needs to get into the clean flow not the aerated stuff. Normal answer is to go deeper. 
Transducers like this that mount back from the transom can be awkward to get set right. One thing that you could try is to make up a bit of timber that you can fit under the bracket that has the effect of extending the bottom of the hull back to the point of the transducer. The idea is to get the laminar flow all the way back to the transducer rather than rely on a clean flow off the bottom edge of the transom. Just mock something up and install it with some cheap and easy to remove silicon initially to see if it helps. You need to get the joint to the transom edge super smooth though. If that does work you can do a more permanent install.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ofthesea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 9:54pm
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Its not a helpful photo, stand further back please behind the boat and take a photo. Reason being I wonder if the transducer is breaking clear of the water at planing speed?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 10:13pm
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I think it is a smidgeon too high
Best gurnard fisherman in my street
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 10:28pm
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In the photo it also looks like it might not be angled forward at all but it is hard to see clearly.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote clank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 10:34pm
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I've had this problem on a past boat, it was just the face of the transducer facing slightly down so make sure the transducer is flat. Obviously any adjustment of the angle may subsequently need height adjustment
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 8:18am
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No clear view of bottom when planning including 'on again/off again depth reading.

 What speeds are you talking about?
 Have you set up exactly as per the instructions in the manual?

 Get the leading edge height wrong or the angle slightly off, just a mm or so too high , makes a huge difference. Also dropping too low low works, but sends up fine spray around the outboard that get sucked inside.. bad news for the engine.







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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote AdAstra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 8:53am
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I must admit that I have not taken notice at what speed boat come up on plane, but that's when image deteriorates.

Yes, fitted to instructions except that I have sunk it lower (for reasons said in original post.
The upward angle is much less than that shown in your diagram. The degrees of up/down movement on this mechanism is I find rather coarse. If I lifted it to the next notch it would seem (to me at least) too angled as to create quite a disturbance in the water!
Hmmm. Spray coming into the engine. I've heard of that.
I have looked, can't say I have noticed any. Friend of mind made up a shield because it was happening to his boat.
Regardless, any alteration I make will be done after my weeks fishing holiday at Mahia.
The sounder works fine as long as I am off the plane. That's a good speed anyway for poking around looking for structure, fish etc.

Will post results then

Thanks
Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 10:56am
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  The above instructions is for Lowrance

I must admit that I have not taken notice at what speed boat come up on plane, but that's when image deteriorates.

 Most get over the bow wave around mid 20s mph, then can slow down to around 19/20 mph and remain on the plane.. very generalised.
 I can travel around 39/ 40 mph  clearly see the bottom, but bit fast to see anything except a reef or channel go past. 30/ 32 bait balls etc are clear.
I did find if was a fraction lower than recommended, or angle in relationship to straight line off the bottom of the hull, it tends to deteriorate.. think maybe would pick up air bubbles and direct under the transducer... The smallest sign of bubble passing underneath (cavitation/ venation as mentioned in posts above screws it up.
 NO AIR BUBBLES

If I lifted it to the next notch it would seem (to me at least) too angled as to create quite a disturbance in the water!

 What is the difference in height between notches?

 As I said, a couple degrees here  and/ or a mm or so is the difference between working reliable and not.
 Did you dummy fit the angle AND the height, attached to the bracket THEN fix the bracket?

Friend of mind made up a shield because it was happening to his boat.
 I had an long issue getting min to work.. then discovered the main issue was ther hull was designed / builts yrs before Sounders/ gps where an item not affordable for rec/ non commercial , joe public users...
 Hence I have mine a smidgen lower than the above.
 I also got a mist spray that sucks up over the engine (salt deposits on the cowl a sure sign) and would suck back into the deck area.. damp back occasionally.
  Played around with shields.. this is mark1....works so well .. simple, cheap (free, square 5L plastic container ) easy to fix to stern (mounts behind the transducer bracket using the bracket screws.) , its become permanent.

 
And as mentioned in posts above, the settings....
 There are some real good tips etc in these forums
 the site search button above, excellent resource.
 and links to web sites for setting these right.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 11:51am
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You say at higher speed the image deteriorates. Does it show black spotting all over, that appears to be interference of some kind. My Elite-5 does that. Faster the speed the worse the black spotting.
Ive noticed the spotting gets worse as the motor is trimmed further forward (ie bow down); so I assume the interference is caused by turbulence from the propeller being nearer the transducer (when the motor is further forward). The only way I can think of reducing that is to move the transducer further away sideways, but on a small narrow boat (1.85m beam) that's not feasible. So I have to put up with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote AdAstra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 2:06pm
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Mine is a Lowrance - Elite7 Chirp.

Height between notches? 
From the trailing edge of t/cucer to ground below 
at present setting = 410mm

Lift trailing edge by one increment = 432mm

Photos attached.
Straight edge fixed to underside of hull represents the continuation of hull.





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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote AdAstra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 6:08pm
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No I don't get what you are seeing on your unit. Mine is more like 'noise' or 'clutter'. 
I can see the surface and bottom. Just not clear enough to be of any real use!
With my limited knowledge of such matters and at great risk of being 'shot-to-shyte' by them that have plenty. I understand that if your transducer is mounted on stbd side of transom within the limits of the fitting instructions and you have a normal 'clockwise' rotating prop with no damage to the blades, then there should be no turbulence between the propeller blades and your tranny. It all goes out back providing thrust.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote viscount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 7:58pm
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As per your new top photo, drop the back of the transducer down so it will be just under your straight edge, start there and see how it goes.
Calling fishing a hobby is like calling brain surgery a job - Paul Schullery
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote AdAstra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 9:20pm
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OK but tranny is as low as it will go on track. Will have to refix it.
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ofthesea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 10:49pm
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Originally posted by viscount viscount wrote:

As per your new top photo, drop the back of the transducer down so it will be just under your straight edge, start there and see how it goes.
Yes I agree, the rear should be slightly lower than the front of the transducer
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 9:24am
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Adastra - the stuff I see looks like "noise or clutter" to me too. And - visually, I can see what looks like prop turbulence out where the transducer is.
And - what else could it be, given that it changes as the motor trim is changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote AdAstra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 9:32am
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I'd like to give you an answer, but I cannot.
If you can imagine that all the knowledge available on sonar and stuff would fill a 200lt drum. My total knowledge will fill the bottom of an egg cup!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 9:35am
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 Is that your speedometer pick up is right next to the transducer?
 How close is it?
 If so that will most likely cause an issue.
 most outboards have provision to connect to speed o meter

 And agree
As per your new top photo, drop the back of the transducer down so it will be just under your straight edge, start there and see how it goes.

Go back up to the lowrance instructions above.. thats what they say

 Think of it this way.
 off the plane, or stopped the transducer is simply buried in the water , maybe 2 to 3" down.. nil air bubbles
 boat on the plain, there is no water against the back of the stern..  initially comes out on the line from under the hull surface, then slowly rises in an elliptical curve till eventually reaches normal sea level around the rear end of the motor cavitation plate (if engine has been mounted correct height)

you need the bottom surface of the transcducer.. generally 1/2 the thickness approx of the transducer to be in this flow of water ... bottom fully covered and not have any bubbles from
1/ air that maybe trapped from up the bow end and flow under the boat (could be a crack or defect or even a rib
 designed to flow trapped air under, or running back down the keel )
2/ Air bubbles forced back from the prop.. in reality even if mounted either side and far closer than recommended , when on the plane boat goes to fast to interfere.. but at idle speed yes.
This from your description can be eliminated.
3/ transducer mounted so maybe high and/ or flick up while on the plain, and rear section bottom surface is not fully under water.. has air.
4/ the leading edge is a mm or so too high, and can drag air under.

I mentioned above I had issues because of older keel type hull. I have the old mounts holes from what remained of some large trim tabs. Therefore did a LOT of real life playing with a lot of expert and non expert suggestions, with locations both sides of the motor without having to make new holes.
 If you have too much angle.. it usually works, must understand the sounder cone is not as square and directs further under the boat. I THINK not being very square with the sea surface MAY also distort fish sign readings. This MAY result in while not moving or slow drift  a lot of sign is not seen.. but seen as you move. (???)


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