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Fish and Game in Strife

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    Posted: 01 May 2020 at 12:44pm
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/300000778/fish-and-game-imploding-as-governm...

This is concerning. Imagine if DOC take over Fish and Game and we have Eugenie Sage in charge of our trout fishing and game bird hunting interests.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 12:49pm
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That dosent bear thinking about.  Once had the impression she wanted all introduced  species removed from waterways. Is that correct. Only thing Sage is good for is stuffing chickens.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MightyBoosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 1:27pm
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Concerning!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FISHBYFLY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 6:09pm
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But ya must say, something had to be done,

Ya cant have farmers in charge of a organisation thats charter is to protect waterways.

If ya read the article it explains  the reasoning.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote doctor fish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 6:57pm
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A very valid point. Is the conservation minister not driven by the ideology that trout must be removed from our waters as they are not a native species? that is my understanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 7:18pm
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Messy alright. How far do you take this whole pest free thing? I may find myself out of a home
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote feeder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 8:12am
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The cockies got pi**ed at the amount of flack they were taking and so they did something about it, they put themselves up for council got voted on, and now they have the balance of power.

Simple ploy.

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 10:02am
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The cockies got pi**ed at the amount of flack they were taking and so they did something about it, they put themselves up for council got voted on, and now they have the balance of power.

Simple ploy.

So many of the cockies are also recreational fishermen and hunters....A foot in both paddocks as it where..
The thing is A hell of a lot of those 'paddocks' on the cockies side are meeting  the stds of paddocks on the other side of the fence and increasing ...
So start throwing crap out of one good paddock into a good paddock next door and you will upset a hell of a lot of members.
 And If those members have the numbers.. this is what happens.
And should happen.
It would not happen if the approach in the early days got modified over the yrs to reflect the membership as a whole.

It is not as if this is a great shock...the whole thing has been brewing publicly for a few yrs now, and in the last 2 yrs been in media quite a few times.

Dont point the finger at the cockies, 
The writing has been on the wall to the old leadership who just dug their toes in , rather than moved with the times..

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tiggs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 11:17am
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   I know at least two farmers who in the past have granted unlimited access to anglers. One has his property abused by gates left open, anglers walking through his cows etc. The result is all access has been stopped.
The second has 1.5kms of unfenced but very stable river frontage on a dry stock farm. He is among many who have unfenced banks along that particular river. F&G encouraged anglers to take photos of unfenced rivers where stock had access to water. When it came to that farmers knowledge that had happened, again all access was stopped.
  If you can consider that we as anglers are winning by fighting farmers, think again. I feel sure that consideration should be given to both sides and genuine discussion should take place.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 2:12pm
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The big picture is that there are more townies than rural folk and that percentage is increasing all the time.    The political gravity trend is also shifting away from the farming lobby.     Whilst water quality advocacy was pioneered by Fish and Game it has now become an irreversible national issue.      Smart farmers know that they need all the friends they can get and being petulant by closing off access might make them feel good in the short term but pissing off townies is definitely not in their long term interest.    
As for Fish and Game this is another altogether sad story.     The idea of user self administration sounds great but quite predictably on the ground the execution has been far from the ideal.    Having now a farmer/guide councillors dominance only adds to the smell of corruption that has wafted over the organisation for a long time.      Likewise to have councillors from that lobby further deludes the principles of Section 35 of the Wildlife Act and section 26 ZN of the Conservation Act, both of which outlaw the selling of fishing and hunting rights.     Farmers have been selling exclusive access and guides are paying big dollars to farmers for it.      And surprise, surprise no land owner has been prosecuted by Fish and Game for it.     So instead of nipping this foul practice in the butt when it first appeared Fish and Game has allowed it to become a common practice.
It would not surprise me that the new farmer/guide dominated councils will soon be urging the government to allow selling of fishing and hunting rights as exist in most other overseas countries.      When that happens most of you keen guys will be reduced to fish in drains and canals as anything of worth will be out of you financial league.  
 
The New Zealand council has bee held captive and has been out manoeuvred for years by it's former CEO and I have witnessed numerous unsuccessful plots to get rid of him by successive councils.     He ran the organisation as his personal fiefdom and used his cunning to get rid of anyone not on his side.
Fish and Game needs a big makeover for sure although I personally doubt that this concept that will never be free of disruptive personality conflicts is the best solution for gamebird hunters and anglers to administer and manage their sport.    
 
However, if it is to continue then some important changes should be made.    Among these councillors should be restricted to 2 terms not be there for life as it happens so often at the moment.   This has resulted in power blocks of old boys forming who resist new ideas and give new blood a hard time.    There should also be a balanced  ratio between game hunters and anglers otherwise one dominates to the detriment of the other.    Again this happens far too often.     Ever since I can remember Fish and Game has been a snake pit of infighting, which I painfully witnessed first hand when I served a stint as a National Councillor.     Worst of all most councillors have not got a clue of fish and game management and so their staff often get away with little oversight.
 
The only way to sort out this mess and stop political interest groups from infiltrating and corrupting this organisation is to create a politically neutral government run Fish and Game Department, with quality professional staff and user advisory add ons.
 
The above review makes grim reading especially its reference to Hawkes Bay which has been a microcosm of all the bad things mentioned above.
 
Let me emphasise and congratulate the many honest and dedicated councillors who have given their all to this organisation and must be gutted to see it sink so low.
 
Hunters and anglers the future is in your hands so don't let it slip because once it is commercialised (which is well on its way) you will never win it back.
 
Cheers
 
Rainbow
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FISHBYFLY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 6:06pm
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thanks for the input rainbow,

my opinion wil always be biased,
simply from my own experience fishing the north island,

ive watched clear running streams with healthy ecosystems destroyed.
and in the prcocess have wondered what is the point of this.

im not into politics and beauacracy, all i no is what i see.

when ya remove the flashy repeptitive magazine, i struggle to find much positive result from our licence fees.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote HareNcopA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2020 at 4:46pm
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I actually feel there has been a fair bit of progress in Auckland/Waikato over the past term. 

I credit this to a change in the staff on the ground and also the fact that the local anglers lobbied and got a fisherman onto a board that was dominated by duck hunters.

Each time I hear from Adam Daniel about what they are out there working on in terms of negotiating access and fighting for our waterways I feel assured that they are doing as much as they can.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote RC17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 11:18am
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Whole organisation must be due for an almighty shake up. 

I saw the news article the other day about fish and game being in strife and accompanying it was a still image of the council vote. I could be wrong, but it looked to me to be a dozen white men 60+. The reason I make that observation isn't because of gender or colour, but age. 

There are too many individuals that have been there to long. As in business, you become stale. That doesn't mean their expertise are diminished, but it needs to be complemented with a healthy dose of fresh perspective to stay relevant. And fresh perspective may mean differing opinions. 

As a smart person once told me, if you think you know everything then you're an idiot. I suspect there would be many people currently involved with fish and game who are "always right", and that's probably contributing to alot of the dysfunction. 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Snuffit. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 12:09pm
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Originally posted by RC17 RC17 wrote:

Whole organisation must be due for an almighty shake up. 

I saw the news article the other day about fish and game being in strife and accompanying it was a still image of the council vote. I could be wrong, but it looked to me to be a dozen white men 60+. The reason I make that observation isn't because of gender or colour, but age. 

There are too many individuals that have been there to long. As in business, you become stale. That doesn't mean their expertise are diminished, but it needs to be complemented with a healthy dose of fresh perspective to stay relevant. And fresh perspective may mean differing opinions. 

As a smart person once told me, if you think you know everything then you're an idiot. I suspect there would be many people currently involved with fish and game who are "always right", and that's probably contributing to alot of the dysfunction. 


And yet, in a number of regions at election time there are not enough candidates to even HOLD an election.

A lot of what has been said above is true enough. I'd challenge ANY organisation that has 13 CEO's (12 regional, 1 central), 144 board members (12 councilors per region), no true central mandate and effectively a communist system of funding (revenue goes into a central pot and is divided to regions based on submission of an operating plan that most license holders aren't aware of) to operate any better. Trouble is, in real life there's no actual comparative. The other trouble being, ^ is better than the majority of alternatives. If DOC run trout fisheries (forget about using Taupo as an example, it gets sod all of their limited funding and attention really) you can kiss some wild fisheries goodbye. 

Your biggest problem here are all of the license holders who expect the org to be held to a greater level of accountability than they hold themselves. Get involved. Dig into F&G. Get a balanced perspective.

What you saw was an overdue replacement of the Chair. There are far bigger issues than that sideshow within the org.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote RC17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 1:23pm
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I believe the model is outdated and dysfunctional. There are a few key reasons for Fish and Games existence, but to me they aren't overly easy to execute in the current structure.  

Firstly, there is the advocacy side of things, lobbying, and pushing an agenda that benefits the environment, fisherman, hunters, and to a lesser extent kiwis who enjoy the outdoors. This is a typical political type setup where you have little choice but to have elected members to keep it diplomatic, but the nature of politics is it will throw shade over the good operational work being done, which leads us to the next facet.... 

The operational component which is far more akin to a business, and really needs no allegiance to the lobbying side of the organisation apart from data sharing. This part focuses on running hatcheries, compliance, access, and marketing of the product in terms of licenses. This side should be more employee than volunteer, although there is a place for both. This side requires a higher degree of commercial and financial acumen to prosper, which you won't get from a narrow pool of elected officials, and needs more actual paid employed roles to attract candidates who while may have an interest in fishing and hunting, don't need to be die hard enthusiasts to warrant working for cheap or free. 

Do the 2 arms need to come under the same banner, funded from the same sources?

I'll leave you with this from Fish and Games own website in the vacancy section "However, vacancies are not common with people staying with the organisation for long periods of time as dedicated enthusiasts!"

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 4:57pm
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

That dosent bear thinking about.  Once had the impression she wanted all introduced  species removed from waterways. Is that correct. Only thing Sage is good for is stuffing chickens.
Have met Eugenie Sage ,cirrus?? Heard speak in person,had a conversation with her?? I have and I found her intention to OUR  best interest.
She in not anti recreational fishing,she wants what we want,less destruction. Yes clean river healthy fresh water fisheries. She doesnt want to ban Whitebaiting but rather have closed areas to give them a chance,she has said NO to licences but(I think it was her)would like to see the ban of recreational sales.And I have no issue for the selling of whitebait to be banned unless licenced.What other species can a non commercial sell their catch.

Question for those in the farming sector. Has our water ways deteriated due to The Queen st farmer,hell make money at all cost or has the lifestyle block farmer just waded in with no idea on land care??
Yes there are genuine farmers around(good buggers) but I have no problem with not letting people wonder over their land willy nilly.
She said you're deaf.No I have selective hearing.And thats when it started.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 6:55pm
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Doc is the wrong department to oversee Fish and Game.    Too much philosophical conflict of interest.     It was Ok when DOC was first formed with a lot of ex Wildlife Service staff representing the interest of hunting and fishing.    However, over time these people have died out (retired) and with them the interest in the sport inside DOC.    In fact I would say that these days the attitude in DoC is generally negative if not outright hostile towards introduced animals and fish.   
As for water quality lets not beat around the bush or shift blame.    I have a stack of photos taken while fishing that shows a blatant disregard for waterways including waters that end up in town supplies.      Once again only idiots continue these ingrained habits; smart farmers see their future in supplying highest quality food to premium markets not bulk milk powder to third world countries.     To get top dollar requires sustainable farming that has proven minimum  impact on the environment.    The science to make that happen is already here but what is needed is a major mind shift away from bulk commodity farming into value added product diversification.    Gone are the days of frozen sheep carcasses draped in mutton cloth loaded onto freighters for Mother England to be cut up over there and sold as chops and roasts.    Fonterra is still boasting that they are the biggest milk powder producer in the world thereby locking farmers in to produce more and more milk from more and more cows.    And don't get me onto the massive live diary cow export to China.    Tens of thousands top quality breeders are hand picked and sold to stock farms in China and God only knows where else.    High quality animals that have been selectively bred.     Quick buck for some but what benefit is this intellectual property wastage to our diary industry in the long run?  
To sum up smart farmers think strategically that their best future is in supplying the premium market niche with highest quality food from fewer animals living in a more wholesome environment.      I sincerely believe that there is a win/win option for both sectors hunters/anglers and farmers.    Lets look forward rather than harping back.
Cheers
Rainbow 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 7:41pm
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Fonterra have made one huge mistake.Going around the world showing how its done.Now we have several Chinese consortiums producing baby formula and exporting to China so no $$ or very few for NZ.Exactly what the kiwifruit industry did late 70s early 80s sold cuttings offshore showed how to grow and get maximum yield. shot themselves in the foot. Zesprey was it??
She said you're deaf.No I have selective hearing.And thats when it started.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 8:08pm
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PJC you have a good memory.     I visited Duncan & Davis Nursery in New Plymouth at that time and saw a shed full of women packing bare rooted Kiwi fruit cuttings into containers for Chile and Italy etc.     When I asked the owner who happened to be the chairman of our NP Board what the hell he was doing, he replied: "If I was not doing it someone else would"    Only a few years later they were ripping out the vines at Te Puke.    We have not learnt a thing.
 
Cheers
 
Rainbow
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote PhilH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 8:13pm
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