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1080 and Environment Waikato

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    Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 2:00pm
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This link to TV Wild shows the actions and use of 1080 by Environment Waikato.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 2:37pm
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It wouldn't play from that link for me, but going to their home page it would play without signing up to the web site.  Not had time to watch it all yet, but I've never understood why we pour hundreds of tonnes of deadly poison all over our country.  I think there is a very large multimillion dollar industry built around dropping 1080, and that has more to do with it than any genuine environmental reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote o Neill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 3:06pm
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Yes you will need to register on the site to watch the clips but worth seeing as with other material on 1080.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote ThomasW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 3:38pm
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Originally posted by Kevin.S Kevin.S wrote:

It wouldn't play from that link for me, but going to their home page it would play without signing up to the web site.  Not had time to watch it all yet, but I've never understood why we pour hundreds of tonnes of deadly poison all over our country.  I think there is a very large multimillion dollar industry built around dropping 1080, and that has more to do with it than any genuine environmental reasons.


We do it because as a country we value our natural biodiversity, and TB free herds. 1080 is simply the most cost effective, relatively humane, relatively safe while minimizing bi kill.  There are other options, same might be better in certain areas but across all factors 1080 is the best option. 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote o Neill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 3:55pm
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Minimizing by kill I doubt it! Humane when animals suffer for over a week come on! Its the cheapest option thats all! 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote feeder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 7:30pm
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1080 is a huge industry, there is lots of dollars tied up here, people may well be supprised as to whom controls the importation of this.
 
Granted there are areas that this crap is the most effective, provided you sweep under the carpet how inhumane it is, if the SPCA saw how this works, ie feed it to an animal and see what happens there would be an uproar.
 
However if the SPCA saw how we deal to canada goslings, one could be heading for pokie.
 
Horses for courses.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Busted! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 7:47pm
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Originally posted by ThomasW ThomasW wrote:

Originally posted by Kevin.S Kevin.S wrote:

It wouldn't play from that link for me, but going to their home page it would play without signing up to the web site.  Not had time to watch it all yet, but I've never understood why we pour hundreds of tonnes of deadly poison all over our country.  I think there is a very large multimillion dollar industry built around dropping 1080, and that has more to do with it than any genuine environmental reasons.


We do it because as a country we value our natural biodiversity, and TB free herds. 1080 is simply the most cost effective, relatively humane, relatively safe while minimizing bi kill.  There are other options, same might be better in certain areas but across all factors 1080 is the best option. 

 
We've killed more native birds with TB than with any other 'control method'.  1080 is only cost effective because the economy around harvesting possums for skin and pet food doesn't factor in to the equation, not when a few individuals stand to make huge dollars on pushing the crap.
 
I take it you've never been into a bush block after a drop - death decay and no birdsong is typical.
 
The funny thing, is if the argument is for controlling 1080 why does 1080 not target stoats ferrets and cats (which typically hunt live animals - not really known for scavenging...).
 
When you look at the scientific argument for and against carpet bombing 1080, it's a very one-sided argument.  This poison is only approved in 98% of the planet for use in warehouse situations, where every unused bait and every carcass can be recovered and destroyed.  You air-drop it, and you have no control over by kill and unintentional delivery vectors - none 0 period.  Not good at all...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jet_ski_fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 8:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ThomasW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 9:23pm
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Quote We've killed more native birds with TB than with any other 'control method'.  1080 is only cost effective because the economy around harvesting possums for skin and pet food doesn't factor in to the equation, not when a few individuals stand to make huge dollars on pushing the crap.
 
I take it you've never been into a bush block after a drop - death decay and no birdsong is typical.
 
The funny thing, is if the argument is for controlling 1080 why does 1080 not target stoats ferrets and cats (which typically hunt live animals - not really known for scavenging...).
 
When you look at the scientific argument for and against carpet bombing 1080, it's a very one-sided argument.  This poison is only approved in 98% of the planet for use in warehouse situations, where every unused bait and every carcass can be recovered and destroyed.  You air-drop it, and you have no control over by kill and unintentional delivery vectors - none 0 period.  Not good at all...

No species of native birds have become extinct after 1080 use begun, we lost 57 species of  birds prior to the use of 1080.

Known Kea killed by bounty 150,000 ,  Recorded number of Kea shot after protection 35 , recorded number killed by 1080 drops 14 ....   Using this logic guns should be banned because they have killed a lot more Kea then 1080 ever would. 

Cyanide has killed significant number of kiwis, and people... 


Its well documented that  harvesting possums for skin and pet food does not provide a high enough kill rate to properly protect native biodiversity and improve breeding success.   In most cases possum numbers are only reduced by 50%. 

1080 does kill stoats, cats and ferrets....  In one monitored area ( small mammal indexing) stoat numbers went from 48% down to 0% after application. 

Yes look at the  scientific argument and you would know that 1080 is a poison which is more lethal towards mammals and less lethal towards birds...  These only one country on earth with a very low number of native mammals.   If other countries had no native mammals then 1080 use as a conservation tool would be higher. 






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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Southern_Jez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 9:29pm
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98% of the world also have native mammals that are protected that they dont want to kill with 1080 ... little old NZ has a native bat (that is also endangered and predated by stoats, possums etc) and native bird life, which, when the 1080 is applied correctly (mistakes have been made in the past) will not be taken up by non-target species.

When anti-1080 arguments start up I am often reminded of something my parents said to me when I was younger ... "If you spent less time complaining about "x", and more time doing something about it, there would probably be nothing to complain about".

Given the amount of time I spend in the bush each year, I am yet to come across an anti-1080 person laying traps or bait lines which they claim to be a better solution to 1080 ... go figure ...

It might be a localised example, but after the 2009 1080 drop in the Waitutu forest Kaka numbers have increased in the area by 120%, Possums are less than 5% of pre-drop rate still due to the DOC control team (and volunteers, of which I am one) maintaining a poison and trap line across the only natural ingress zone. But yeah, you guys are probably right and we should stop using 1080 completely, and replace it with ... what was it you suggested again?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jet_ski_fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 10:46pm
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If you was not a volunteer, would you still be saying the same thing? when the 1080 is applied correctly? so dropping it from a heli all over the place is not correct then? Should it be applied by volunteers then?. how many do you need to cover most of fiordland national park ...or any Forrest in nz? 50 200? People working for free week in week out for a few months or a few weeks of the year. how often do you maintain a poison trap line? a week a month then move on to the next ridge. how do you feed your family pay bills.  how many lines do you lay 20 50 200 and how many of these lines are traps? compared to poison lines. we all know poison lines can go for ages on  tube of cyanide, But don't forget you have 6 poisons 1080, phosphorus, cholecalciferol, cyanide, brodifacoum, or pindone. how much can you carry when laying lines of traps how far do they go? and how much traps can you carry? 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ThomasW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 11:00pm
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One of the main problems the anti 1080 conspiracy faces is a lack of evidence, they have guys walking through the bush with video cameras but so far they have failed to document the large number of  native birds which they claim are killed after a drop. If numbers are as high as they claimed, they would have footage of it by now.


With regards to costs,  "A recent 1080 operation covering 30,000 ha in the Cascade South Westland, put the cost at $17 per hectare and the equivalent ground control at $48 per hectare - a saving of $900,000"




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Southern_Jez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2012 at 8:27am
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Originally posted by Built_to_fish Built_to_fish wrote:

If you was not a volunteer, would you still be saying the same thing? when the 1080 is applied correctly? so dropping it from a heli all over the place is not correct then? Should it be applied by volunteers then?. how many do you need to cover most of fiordland national park ...or any Forrest in nz? 50 200? People working for free week in week out for a few months or a few weeks of the year. how often do you maintain a poison trap line? a week a month then move on to the next ridge. how do you feed your family pay bills.  how many lines do you lay 20 50 200 and how many of these lines are traps? compared to poison lines. we all know poison lines can go for ages on  tube of cyanide, But don't forget you have 6 poisons 1080, phosphorus, cholecalciferol, cyanide, brodifacoum, or pindone. how much can you carry when laying lines of traps how far do they go? and how much traps can you carry? 



The only difference between myself and someone who is not a volunteer, is that I actually have first hand experience of how it works, I am not watching amateur films from a group of people who are blinded by their own propoganda.

What I mean by applied correctly is the lacing of appropriate "carrier" baits.

The poison and trap line is maintained by 4 DOC workers, and about 20 volunteers, it is roughly 40km long, from the top of Lake Hauroko to Dusky Sound.

I work shift work, 4 days on 4 off, during every second lot of my days off (weather dependant) I spend 2 in the bush checking traps, resetting and rebaiting. I also spend that same time hunting deer and fishing for trout. This is free for me, and I get no payment, however I get dropped off by DOC, and they also help bring out any deer I have shot. So you could say my payment is a steady supply of venison, the occasional wild pig, and a free ride into the bush twice a month. I am also allowed to keep and sell any possum skins i gather, but i dont worry about that, i'd rather concentrate of deer.

I can honestly say I can only carry a couple of traps, they are quite bulky, however a helicopter can carry and drop off a lot of them. They weren't all carried in by hand, however they are checked and reset at worst weekly (the weather can have quite an impact on how often we can get to things).

We will maintain this line only, we won't be "moving on to the next ridge" as this is the only natural ingress point for stoats and possums. The rest of the area is protected by natural formations such as mountains, rivers, lakes, and the Tasman Sea.

We use a cyanide paste for the poison, we are also trialling new traps that automatically reset themselves using a small CO2 canister ... currently we want them to last a bit longer (the attractant/bait is the weak point currently), in the order of months as opposed to weeks, then we can use less poisons. Once these traps are up to speed, and are cost effective, then the game will change a lot in terms of 1080 application - for the record, this is being funded privately by a NZ company that will stand to make a metric $hitload of money from it globally.

At the end of the day, I personally don't like 1080, and I would love to see one of these traps on every tree in NZ (not exactly needed, probably not financially doable). However, 1080 is the best we have got at the moment, and it does the job required. I am doing my part to assist, partly in the hope that this area wont require another 1080 drop. The work I help with has already meant that DOC could push back it's next planned drop to 2014, it was initially scheduled for December 2012. That will be reviewed again in 2014, and if the other volunteers and myself are successfull then it will be pushed back again. I treat it as a bit of a game ... how long can I delay a planned 1080 drop.

Built_To_Fish, you and I are not too different, but instead of protesting on the internet, I am in the bush doing something that is actively slowing the application of 1080 ... funny how that works isn't it ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jet_ski_fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2012 at 9:40am
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Hey don't get me wrong, i understand what you do how you do hat you do your a good guy for doing it. and it helps to keep 1080 off the bush then all good for nature, back before they took the blow joes cyanide licences off them, my self included due to bureaucratic BS and have to use it every day to keep it. i was running 200 baits on ridges up n down my block or blocks. i did my part i got to see some awesome shet. just sitting in the bush.
but then because i was not getting enough possums, we lost the blocks to doc..sure most had become shy, but we adapted to the change and got sfa in the end. it was a hard road to get any possums, yet they still said we need to try harder. Wacko  if me and the rest of the late licence holders had not be done over by the bureaucratic bs, we to can be out there getting rid of possums and stotes and other vermin as well . i pick up trash on the beach and the bush tracks i do my part when and where i can..and i agree carried baits are better in the long run that just dropping them and hope. traps should be  set left over night and checked again and reset. when you leave possums  in traps you make it easy for wild dogs pigs and other carnivorousness animals to feed on them in the traps. it's like a dinner gong..but i know you can not do that but at least you and others check them some don't and forget about them. 1080 is all we have, but it should be laid by people who can set it in places for maximum kill ratios. 
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