Who saved the Snapper?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote lingee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2016 at 5:20pm
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Platinum
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NZ is on the way out with all the house prices on the way up your little nz is f=====ed you young couples day by day have to work 2 our more jobs with no return save and the banks they more . all citys around the world have millions of people do we need it . I say no . look what these imports are doing to our in close sea shore .
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 10:21am
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Titanium
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Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Franklin
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Points: 12844
So you are saying that.....what? The govt should compulsorily repurchase all snapper quota

This buy back BS really sticks with me.
If a coal/ ore/ gravel whatever mine runs out of resource, a forest runs out of wood do governments buy back?
If a product, say tobacco or opium or syn dope is made illegal, do governments buy back?
No the directors of companies THAT plan for the future start to transfer investments/ capital into other industries.. those that dont die.
Its called free market.
But if fisheries is depleted, or not recovering companies get compensation even thu for yrs , even decades the know the writing is on the wall, and even moved operations out of areas that are uneconomical

Buy back is BS


maybe  a good case for the small 'village' operator netting mullet or flounder or bit of long lining to pay the mortgage (????)

On top of that to have compensation for restricting coms fishing in a area they have been restricted to for yrs anyway, and basically moved out of anyway.
Really?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 11:01am
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Titanium
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Slightly different in the case of the fisheries though steps. If forestry or mining etc....finite resources....run out, then there is no more to be taken. Fisheries are not like that, it is a naturally renewing resource.
And the way the qms system has been set up, the quota holder owns the right to catch that amount of fish, it is a property right.
It is more like being a farmer owning your land and the govt then telling you that although you own it, you are not allowed to actually farm it any more, even though you bought the land off the govt for the express stated purpose of farming it. So you can sue.
Or if you get a twenty year lease on a forestry block off the govt, pre paying for the full twenty years lease to give you the right to allow X trees per year to be felled to run through a mill etc, then two years later the govt says you can't actually cut down the trees now because, whatever, carbons or something, and is cancelling the lease, but you don't get the money back because there aren't enough trees in the world anymore, so suck it up. So surely you can ask for the money you paid to lease the block from the govt back?
You have to remember that this quota has not just been given away to the quota holders, they have paid an awful lot of money to hold it, so the quota holders have most definitely invested in this property....and saying a govt should freely be allowed to just cancel ownership rights on anything they want is a helluva dangerous precedent.
Today legally owned quota, tomorrow legally owned houses where they want to put a motorway....why not just take those too without any compensation or repurchase? How would you feel about the local council telling you it needs your place for a new rail link say. You've gt a year to move out, and no, you get no compensation for your lost house, because....well, just because.
So, yes, compensation for a restriction or reduction of a property right IS important, no matter what it is. Whether we like it or not is irrelevant.
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 11:11am
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Titanium
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Fisheries a naturally renewing resource. May be ,may not. Give it 10 or 20 years and see how it looks ,may also prove to be finite. In that case re growth would be no faster than regrowth of our native forests. Fishing intensity in our coastal waters would equal or exceed fishing intensity anywhere on the planet.
 Selling quota at high prices could be considered as another government racket
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 1:06pm
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Titanium
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Joined: 14 Oct 2013
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Points: 12844
Historically and results of historical use of fisheries world wide is like a mine running out... to the extent the area becomes  totally barren maybe for decades , lifetimes into the future.
That much different to a mine?
Or a  natural forest.. the rimu of the Sth Island or the forests of Indonesia, sth America, and those that used to cover Britain and Europe, and the kauri forests that used to cover NZ?.. now prime farmland and urban city?

Another point on property.. know one actually owns land as such.... under Westminster rules... we own the right to use that land.. this is how the government can step in and take land for the overall good of the people and in times of war/ crisis. Compensation is not a right, it is a political necessity....
Imagine every time a road goes thru the people where told .. bye bye.. tough luck guys.
OH another illustration.. the army/ military can cross anywhere any time with anything they like, pile thru fences  buildings whatever on exerciser....
Any damage done doesnt require compensation....but they do and or the engineers rebuild fences etc...and give notice to locals/ owners... in peace time.

Which is why we for the common good and security of all, only have the right to use land, not actually own it.
I do believe we also have the responsibility to look after that land.. ie not to pour pollutants and stuff into it.. and if do can be held  financially  responsible for that abuse....decades later.
So what in principle changes between land and the air above it  and the sea bed and the water above it?.. land and sea bed within our economic 200 mile zone?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 3:09pm
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Titanium
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Govts can compulsory repurchase land, yes, when there is a property right assigned to that land. So if they want to compusorarily purchase back quota owned by someone, again, they need to repurchase it. The fight then is to ascertain a fair value.
Don't own land? Think you may have issues proving that in court. I bloody well own mine! ­čśä
Sole exclusive use in perpetuity...., sounds like ownership to me. It is true though that in NZ, we do not own the resources under our land, which I reckon sucks. Like if you have a ton of gold under you land, the govt can sell the rights to that gold to whoever they want, but then those people have to negotiate with you access to that gold. You do not own the gold itself, but get money from letting the miners dig it up on your land. If they tunnel under your land to get it though, nothing you can do about it.
Kinda off the fishing subject there though.....t

Cirrus, quota prices are not set by the govt, it is a market price. When a species is put into quota, like the broadies were a while back, then the govt put the quota up for tender, that determined the initial quota price for them. It then fluctuates in response to demand and availability. But from that point on, anyone wants quota, they need to buy it off another quota holder, not the govt.
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 3:28pm
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Titanium
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As an aside steps, nothing to do with fishing......you said above that if people pour pollutants etc into the land can then be later held financially responsible.... Sixty years ago, farmers were advised to put DDT in their super, to kill grass grub. The wealthier farmers did so ad it seemed a good idea to look after the pasture etc....well fifty years later, DDT residue, DDE, was suddenly a big problem for dairy farmers milking off that land. Who is at fault? The farmer 50years earlier who were following what they were told was best practices, or the govt for advising them this via ministry of agriculture, or the DDT companies for supplying the product.....?
And what solution would you give to this issue?
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2016 at 7:50am
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Titanium
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Joined: 14 Oct 2013
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Some times it happens others it doesnt.. like dumping asbestos and old service stations or wrecking yards....Governments tend to be selective in pushing these things....as they do with resources..
A soln to that?
Governments can do what they like.. its about votes, power , political pressure and financing lobbing.
Its like our coal.. the London based companies set up coal mines here, then 2nd generation settlers didnt like the profits also being exported.. they nationalised....few decades later they sold them again..then nationalised...next economic crisis they old them again...now they are going bust.. maybe buy at at $1 consideration like the railways?
Governments do what they like depending on how the political pressure and economic situation at the time...
So asking for a soln to that?
There has not been one for 100s of yrs.



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