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DOC Eco nazis strike again

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    Posted: 06 Apr 2013 at 12:10pm
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Originally posted by SpringCreeky SpringCreeky wrote:

Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

[QUOTE=SpringCreeky]Rainbow



While we are thinking about restricting the white bait catch we should look at the commercial eel fishery and long fins as well

Cheers
 
Spring Creek
Here we are on the same page.     However, I see DOC's trout poisoning at Zealandia as a convenient trial run for further as yet undisclosed projects on the Doc estate.    Apart from a small DOC team managing the Taupo trout fishery and that only becasue of a binding agreement between the Crown and Tuwharetoa the rest of DOC regards trout as "the possums of the rivers".     It and its idiological string pullers, the Forest and Bird Society do everything to undermine the public perception of trout as a valuable sport fish.     
 
This comes from a department that cant even look after its most basic national park assets.   Only the other day I took my grandson to Egmont National Park on yet another track that had been let go to wreck and ruin through lack of even the most basic maintenance.    I avoid going there as it breaks my heart to see how an endless parade of woolyheaded money wasters has mismanaged the department.     Its new regional structure is now more or less the same as that of the NZ Forest Service (one of DOC's founding departments) when DOC was formed in 1987.     If it were not so painful to go back over the years I spent in DOC I could write a book about the many hairbrained schemes and and general lack of efficiency motivation I had to endure during that time.     Zealandia is symtomatic of people trying to walk on water.    
Rainbow
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SpringCreeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2013 at 11:59pm
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Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Originally posted by SpringCreeky SpringCreeky wrote:

Rainbow

I think DOCs eradication of trout at Zealandia and Gareth Morgans stance on cats are different.  

Your explanation suggests removing cats doesn't resolve the problem it simply creates a new one. By the analogy in your letter you would have to remove every single pest species to be effective. The use of Rotenone would do just that. I guess it is the fresh water version of intense pest eradication carried out on off shore islands, Maungatautri and of course Zealandia. In terms of recovery of native species these are generally seen as a success.  

Sadly we have made a mess of it all. but there are situations were we can make improvements and I don't think the operation at Zealandia should be seen as sinister or the actions of zealots.    


 
Personally I see Zealandia as something of a open air zoo and an expensive one at that.   As such I am not really interested in it other than that it has become a rallying place for dreamers of the  "Pest Free NZ Vision".    If you really want to champion for the better protection of natice galaxiids than your efforts would be better spent on working for the decommercialisation of the whitebait fishery and the introduction of a maximum daily catch.    
 
There are countless troutfree water courses up and down the country that are ideal whitebait habitat but are relentlessly hammered all season long by whitebaiters many of them with dollar signs in their eyes.    While trout eat native fish, the real threat to their welfare is widespread habitat destruction and fishing pressure.    Like with singling out cats it easier to demonise trout than to look and act on the wider picture.
 
Rainbow  



Yes there are many issues that affect our native species..... The list is long so we have a lot of work to do in a number of areas..... But does the general population care enough to try and make a difference... Probably not. But these small pockets are a start and possibly a good way to, at least, get people interested in conservation.

While we are thinking about restricting the white bait catch we should look at the commercial eel fishery and long fins as well

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SpringCreeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2013 at 11:47pm
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Originally posted by sharp hook sharp hook wrote:


<h1 id="line" ="story">Two Pesticides -- Rotenone and Paraquat -- Linked to Parkinso</h1>

The study was a collaborative effort conducted by researchers at the
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which is
part of the National Institutes of Health, and the Parkinson's Institute
and Clinical Center in Sunnyvale, Calif.


"Rotenone directly inhibits the function of the mitochondria, the
structure responsible for making energy in the cell," said Freya Kamel,
Ph.D., a researcher in the intramural program at NIEHS and co-author of
the paper appearing online in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.
"Paraquat increases production of certain oxygen derivatives that may
harm cellular structures. People who used these pesticides or others
with a similar mechanism of action were more likely to develop
Parkinson's disease.

<h1 id="line" ="story">n's Disease, Study Suggests</h1>
               
               
                    <p id="first"><span ="date">Feb. 15, 2011</span> — New research
shows a link between use of two pesticides, rotenone and paraquat, and
Parkinson's disease. People who used either pesticide developed
Parkinson's disease approximately 2.5 times more often than non-users.




Interesting.... But not surprising considering how nasty paraquat is!
Is it still widely used? Google tells me Ravensdowne sell a paraquat product, and I am pretty sure I have used a herbicide which recommended mixing with paraquat when spraying out lucerne.

I wonder what the life span of rotonone is in water, I know it doesn't last long in soil. I think it also the active ingredient in Derris dust?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2013 at 10:14pm
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Originally posted by SpringCreeky SpringCreeky wrote:

Rainbow

I think DOCs eradication of trout at Zealandia and Gareth Morgans stance on cats are different.  

Your explanation suggests removing cats doesn't resolve the problem it simply creates a new one. By the analogy in your letter you would have to remove every single pest species to be effective. The use of Rotenone would do just that. I guess it is the fresh water version of intense pest eradication carried out on off shore islands, Maungatautri and of course Zealandia. In terms of recovery of native species these are generally seen as a success.  

Sadly we have made a mess of it all. but there are situations were we can make improvements and I don't think the operation at Zealandia should be seen as sinister or the actions of zealots.    

 
Personally I see Zealandia as something of a open air zoo and an expensive one at that.   As such I am not really interested in it other than that it has become a rallying place for dreamers of the  "Pest Free NZ Vision".    If you really want to champion for the better protection of natice galaxiids than your efforts would be better spent on working for the decommercialisation of the whitebait fishery and the introduction of a maximum daily catch.   
 
There are countless troutfree water courses up and down the country that are ideal whitebait habitat but are relentlessly hammered all season long by whitebaiters many of them with dollar signs in their eyes.    While trout eat native fish, the real threat to their welfare is widespread habitat destruction and fishing pressure.    Like with singling out cats it easier to demonise trout than to look and act on the wider picture.
 
Rainbow  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sharp hook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2013 at 7:58pm
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Two Pesticides -- Rotenone and Paraquat -- Linked to Parkinso

The study was a collaborative effort conducted by researchers at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which is part of the National Institutes of Health, and the Parkinson's Institute and Clinical Center in Sunnyvale, Calif.

"Rotenone directly inhibits the function of the mitochondria, the structure responsible for making energy in the cell," said Freya Kamel, Ph.D., a researcher in the intramural program at NIEHS and co-author of the paper appearing online in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives. "Paraquat increases production of certain oxygen derivatives that may harm cellular structures. People who used these pesticides or others with a similar mechanism of action were more likely to develop Parkinson's disease.

n's Disease, Study Suggests

Feb. 15, 2011 — New research shows a link between use of two pesticides, rotenone and paraquat, and Parkinson's disease. People who used either pesticide developed Parkinson's disease approximately 2.5 times more often than non-users.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Zambezi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2013 at 9:19am
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Hope you remember to take the tinfoil hat off while you're outside/fishing
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Flyfishboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2013 at 8:40am
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Ha ha. That's nice. (As in Mrs Browns boys)
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote long john Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 9:44pm
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Hope you release them well up the bank
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And here's me thinking that this site was for fishos. Just goes to show " the enemy is within" . Bye I,m off fishing!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mullins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 11:10am
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Originally posted by Built_to_fish Built_to_fish wrote:

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">they're classed as native as they found their own way here??? So if a shet load of overseas refugee's Found there way here on boats and settled as well are they natives then? as the way i looked at it, they are over stayers...</span>


They would be classified as indigenous and offered a range of 4g frequencies.
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http://terranature.org/extinctBirds.htm

They were here before humans and after.
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Originally posted by Built_to_fish Built_to_fish wrote:

they're classed as native as they found their own way here??? So if a shet load of overseas refugee's Found there way here on boats and settled as well are they natives then? as the way i looked at it, they are over stayers...


yes they are, this is not about a group of people making there way here under their own steam, take that argument elsewhere.

Unlike with the Kai Iwi lakes experiment (where they just removed trout), they're talking about getting as many natives out as the can then killing everything thats left behind off.

If the trout made their own way here then so be it let them stay but unlike the pelicans they didn't. There fore there is nothing natural about there existence in NZ.

Other than the pelican statement I agree with sharp hook's post completely.

At the end of the day the stream they're going to do this in are one of a few that can be isolated and contained (with realisitc bounds and with out natural factors like weather/floods) with out any additional human interference/development needed that would cause further down stream impact.

Even if it's the only one they do it in (which is unlikley), good on them for at leasting trying to do something to save these fish before they're all gone.



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Everyone found their way here by boats orginally including the Polynesian rats.
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they're classed as native as they found their own way here??? So if a shet load of overseas refugee's Found there way here on boats and settled as well are they natives then? as the way i looked at it, they are over stayers...
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Originally posted by sharp hook sharp hook wrote:

There are imports arriving all the time [pellicans are the latest].


Wrong example, they're classed as native as they found their own way here.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sharp hook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 8:43am
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For some time I promoted the idea that NZ needed to review the trout/coarse /native fish in rivers and lakes.My view was that some areas need to be native only/trout [natives take their chances]and  coarse fishing .This would give us all what I think is a balanced outcome.If we look at the arrival of outside organisems we see that the imports by the first settlers has and is still causing ecological damage [pacific rats]but they are a "treasure".There are imports arriving all the time [pellicans are the latest].Nz is a changing  place that we do want to protect but we have to accept change.My views did not fit the outlook of those in charge and I no longer get invited to give my point of view in places of "learning"
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Rainbow

I think DOCs eradication of trout at Zealandia and Gareth Morgans stance on cats are different.  

Your explanation suggests removing cats doesn't resolve the problem it simply creates a new one. By the analogy in your letter you would have to remove every single pest species to be effective. The use of Rotenone would do just that. I guess it is the fresh water version of intense pest eradication carried out on off shore islands, Maungatautri and of course Zealandia. In terms of recovery of native species these are generally seen as a success.  

Sadly we have made a mess of it all. but there are situations were we can make improvements and I don't think the operation at Zealandia should be seen as sinister or the actions of zealots.    


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Rainbow - fantastic article, well researched and not at all speculative. 
 
Do you think feral cats have a positive net effect on native species? If so, how many of these rat killing, bunny bouncing eco-saviours do you reckon would be optimal? More? Fewer? Breeding programme required?
 
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I think Te Awa Kairangi Angler has nailed it on the head. We certainly need to put some effort into protecting our endangered Galaxiid species even at the expense of trout. Our native freshwater fish species are unique to this country, much like the Kokako or even the All Blacks for that matter. Legislatively native freshwater fish have very little direct protection compared to other species. Furthermore, trout have exclusive protection under the Resource Management Act, so in a sense are already ahead.

I don't think a fish out or electro-fishing would have been effective in the reservoir. It may have reduced trout numbers but not achieved complete eradication. For example electro-fishing has been used to control pest fish (Koi, Rudd, Goldfish) in small lowland lakes in the Waikato using a specially designed boat. My understanding is that this drastically reduced fish numbers but did not cause complete eradication. 

A Rotenone operation in freshwater is much more complex than aerially broadcasting 1080. So I don't think DOC will ever have the resources or gain enough stakeholder support to under take such an operation on a large scale 

Cheers 

Justin 

 
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Originally posted by Mike.Thomas Mike.Thomas wrote:

I for one remember that old chestnut being used to justify removing trout from one of the Kai Iwi lakes, but as soon as they removed the trout the Galaxiid population crashed! Turned out the trout were feeding on the mosquito fish and once the mosquito fish had no predators the population increased and they ate the fry of the Galaxiid.
All the best.
Mike
 
We cant really blame the pioneers for introducing a host of animals.   They did not know any better.    One hundered years on one can expect the new  eco warrior brigade to have a much better grasp of how complex our ecolocial setting has become.    Well judging by the above and below examples they have learnt very little.     Make no mistake the trial at Zealandia has a much more sinister purpose.
Below is a letter I sent to my local paper.    They back Margan and did not publish it.
Rainbow
 

Demon Cats

Most people working in conservation sooner or later come to the realisation that much of this country’s biota is on life support.   The threats our native plants and animals face are so complex, so interactive and so 3-dymentional that one can only shake one’s head at the utter naivety of Gareth Morgan’s one-track urban cat eradication pipe dream.   He may be a brilliant economist and certainly has made a pile of money, some of which he now wants to put to work for conservation (such as the mouse eradication programme on one of our subantarctic islands), which is to be applauded. 

It is true that hungry cats can have a devastating impact on native wildlife such as the remnant kakapo population on Steward Island and some mainland seabird breeding colonies.   While the latter threat can be controlled through a dedicated trapping/poison programme the average feral cat has to scratch for a living and is most likely surviving on mice, rats, rabbits, introduced birds rather than singling out native species. The mouse it eats can no longer devour native insects or seeds of native plants.   The rat it kills can no longer eat skinks or rob nests of native birds or kill their fledgling young.   The rabbits it bounces on helps to keep the bunny population from exploding and some of the introduced birds it catches may be serious competitors to native birds occupying a similar ecological niche.  

 

While the above examples are overly simplistic they do serve as examples of how complex and ongoing the ecological interaction between our native and the introduced species really is and that is without expanding this sad tale to stoats, opossums, new diseases and the widespread habitat destruction in the name of progress.  

 

Demonising domestic moggies might give some urban greenies a warm, fuzzy feeling and a newly discovered sense of patriotism but it also nicely diverts our attention from the stark warning so eloquently put by Sir David Attenborough in the same paper that the exploding human population has become the greatest threat to life on earth, including our own.

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