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    Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 3:37pm
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Niwa doesnt say depth,appears to be under 20m.



Still think the Aussie video is more realistic



Remember both species are members of the bream family,NZ does not have true snapper
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote brmbrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 6:31pm
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It would be useful if they could present data about survival percentages, including related to whether the fish is obviously blown or just looks OK.  Also what depth?All that affects whether to return legal fish.  I normally keep anything legal that is obviously blown, but if they had an 80%, 50% 20% chance of survival I would think again maybe


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote lawabidingpoacher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 8:01pm
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I have a simple process in my fishing , I use a larger circle hook than most and I keep every thing thats legal ! I catch very few undersize  , if any , and when I have my limit I go home ! simple. 
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The study is a good start, only preliminary data released so far. Most of my time is spent lure fishing in 40 metres plus. I know survival isn't going to be high, so catch the snapper I need to eat and then either go home, or target kingfish. Catching dozens of fish and releasing them holds no appeal.
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What I find a little surprising in the first (NZ) vid is that there is no mention of winding your fish up SLOWLY. In-fact one of the anglers seems to be going rather hard on a small fish. It's not a race to the top. Fish survival rates increase with a slow retrieve and even a short decompression stop / pause 6-10m down is recommended to further increase survival rates.
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There's a lot more that could be investigated, but it is a start. After catching hundreds (if not more) snapper from 40+ metres, it's clear to me that the bigger fish do less well and it's not just related to duration of fight. Unfortunately, the bigger fish are more likely to come up "blown".

It's a sensitive subject, everyone wants to believe they're right, so we'll see what the data shows. How many times do you read on social media that the big one was "released to fight another day"? Well intentioned, but my gut feeling is that if the fish was caught in deep water, they are just making shark food and then going on to remove a bunch of pannies from the fishery. Surely better to have just kept the big fish and stop fishing for snapper? 


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Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

There's a lot more that could be investigated, but it is a start ...

Agree.
The practice of venting and the use of release weights are akin the placing the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff imo.  It would be more proactive to minimize the effects of barotrauma in the first place.  I don't think there is any argument that barotrauma is caused by rapid changes in pressure.  If you wind in slowly, you minimize those rapid pressure changes.  We have found it works well with some of our local species over here, especially those that are more susceptible to effects of barotrauma than snapper.          
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Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

There's a lot more that could be investigated, but it is a start ...

Agree.
The practice of venting and the use of release weights are akin the placing the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff imo.  It would be more proactive to minimize the effects of barotrauma in the first place.  I don't think there is any argument that barotrauma is caused by rapid changes in pressure.  If you wind in slowly, you minimize those rapid pressure changes.  We have found it works well with some of our local species over here, especially those that are more susceptible to effects of barotrauma than snapper.          
Venting?? you dont mean with a needle do you?? As this practice is illegal in NZ and only a vet can perform.As a TV celebrity found out.
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Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

Venting?? you dont mean with a needle do you?? As this practice is illegal in NZ and only a vet can perform.As a TV celebrity found out.

Yes venting with a hollow instrument is what I was referring to. Like this:


If this is now illegal in NZ then I stand corrected.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2022 at 5:29pm
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From Tindale Marine research

Note: under the Animal Welfare Act that venting is illegal in New Zealand unless carried out by a vet.

And thats where Watson come unstuck.

2.20 shows venting




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My opinion on venting. It may allow a fish to swim back down, but it won't reverse tissue/organ damage.
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Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

My opinion on venting. It may allow a fish to swim back down, but it won't reverse tissue/organ damage.
As catchelot use to say.Dont play with your food
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Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

My opinion on venting. It may allow a fish to swim back down, but it won't reverse tissue/organ damage.

Fair point MB (RIP Catchelot) but in my opinion fish are hardy creatures. I've caught fish with all manner of injuries but to be fair barotrauma is harder to identify.
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Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

From Tindale Marine research

Note: under the Animal Welfare Act that venting is illegal in New Zealand unless carried out by a vet.

And thats where Watson come unstuck.

2.20 shows venting






It's pretty odd that you can bridle rig a livebait through the eye sockets, but you can't vent a fish that you're intent on releasing!
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Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

From Tindale Marine research

Note: under the Animal Welfare Act that venting is illegal in New Zealand unless carried out by a vet.

And thats where Watson come unstuck.

2.20 shows venting






It's pretty odd that you can bridle rig a livebait through the eye sockets, but you can't vent a fish that you're intent on releasing!
Scott Tindale
Paul  if you read the animal welfare act you will see that live bait is acceptable because it is destined to die. Releasing a fish live back into the wild is a totally different matter. Any surgical procedure must follow strict guidelines... anyone can google the rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Fish Addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 1:17pm
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For interest's sake I sent an email to MPI asking them whether the practice of venting was in breach of the NZ Animal Welfare Act. The following was their response:

"Kia Ora Alan,

Thank you for your email regarding venting of fish with barotrauma. Our response is based on the assumption that your query is in the context of fishing for recreational purposes.

Under Section 30A of the Animal Welfare Act 1999, it is an offence to wilfully or recklessly ill-treat an animal in a wild state. However, if a prosecution for wilful or reckless ill-treatment is brought, the conduct in question is defensible if the court can be satisfied that it is part of a generally accepted practice in New Zealand for the hunting or killing of an animal in a wild state.

Our understanding is that venting is an accepted practice used to treat barotrauma, in order to mitigate pain and distress and increase survivability of the fish. Therefore, our assessment is that correctly venting fish that are suffering from barotrauma is unlikely to be in breach of the Act.

Some further resources and options for your consideration:
There are several devices available that work to ensure the highest possible survival rates of returned fish caught at depth. Please investigate to find the best tool for your set up. Additionally, MPI’s Fisheries team are a good resource for more information on best fishing practices. They can be reached at [email protected].

We recommend every fisher uses the best tools and practices at their disposal to help ensure fish survival rates and protect animal welfare." 
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Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

For interest's sake I sent an email to MPI asking them whether the practice of venting was in breach of the NZ Animal Welfare Act. The following was their response:

"Kia Ora Alan,

Thank you for your email regarding venting of fish with barotrauma. Our response is based on the assumption that your query is in the context of fishing for recreational purposes.

Under Section 30A of the Animal Welfare Act 1999, it is an offence to wilfully or recklessly ill-treat an animal in a wild state. However, if a prosecution for wilful or reckless ill-treatment is brought, the conduct in question is defensible if the court can be satisfied that it is part of a generally accepted practice in New Zealand for the hunting or killing of an animal in a wild state.

Our understanding is that venting is an accepted practice used to treat barotrauma, in order to mitigate pain and distress and increase survivability of the fish. Therefore, our assessment is that correctly venting fish that are suffering from barotrauma is unlikely to be in breach of the Act.

Some further resources and options for your consideration:
There are several devices available that work to ensure the highest possible survival rates of returned fish caught at depth. Please investigate to find the best tool for your set up. Additionally, MPI’s Fisheries team are a good resource for more information on best fishing practices. They can be reached at [email protected].

We recommend every fisher uses the best tools and practices at their disposal to help ensure fish survival rates and protect animal welfare." 
Thanks,intersting,so do they have it right??
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Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

Thanks,intersting,so do they have it right??

I would like to think so.  It came from:

"Animal Welfare Team
Animal Health & Welfare Directorate | Agriculture & Investment Services – Tapuwae Ahuwhenua

Ministry for Primary Industries - Manatū Ahu Matua | Charles Fergusson Building, 34-38 Bowen Street | PO Box 2526 | Wellington 6140 | New Zealand

Web: www.mpi.govt.nz"


Dare I use the words 'common sense', but it is the sensible approach. 

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Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

Thanks,intersting,so do they have it right??

I would like to think so. 

Dare I use the words 'common sense', but it is the sensible approach. 


Science can be frustrating. If you don't like what one expert says, go find another expert. Or in this case bypass the issue by changing the rules perhaps - keep the first 7 snapper you catch regardless of size.

Does Venting Promote Survival of Released Fish?
Feature: Fisheries Management

Abstract: Fishes captured and brought to the surface by commercial and recreational fishers may suffer a variety of injuries that collectively are referred to as barotrauma. To relieve barotrauma symptoms, particularly those associated with an expanded swim bladder, some anglers deflate, or vent, the swim bladder (or body cavity when the swim bladder has ruptured) of fishes before releasing them. I compiled 17 studies that assessed the potential benefits of venting in 21 fish species and 1 composite group. These studies provided 39 sample estimates that compare survival (N = 18) and recapture rates (N = 21) of vented and unvented fish. I used relative risk to summarize results of individual studies, which allowed me to combine results from experimental and capture-recapture studies. Overall, there was little evidence that venting benefited fish survival. Venting was equally ineffective for freshwater and marine fishes and its efficacy was unaffected based on whether venting was performed by fishery biologists or anglers. The effects of venting did vary with capture depth: venting was slightly beneficial to fish captured from shallow waters, but appeared to be increasingly harmful for fish captured from progressively deeper waters. The available evidence suggests that venting fish should not only be discouraged by fishery management agencies, but given the possibility that venting may adversely affect survival of fish captured from deep water, this practice should be prohibited, rather than required by regulation.

Gene R. Wilde

Wilde is professor of fishery ecology at the Department of Biological Sciences, Texas Tech University, Lubbock.
He can be contacted at [email protected].



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 4:13pm
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very interesting thread, guys. NZ Fishing News has covered this topic pretty well in the past few years, as research comes up.
I know there are charter skippers who don't let their clients return fish during workup season, and other top fishos who only fish in less than 20m so they can return big snaps.

I have been watching a few Facebook vids posted by legendary Houhora charter skipper Rob Parker, and they get most of their snapper dragging softbaits in 35-40+ metres.Almost every trip they are getting 20+lb snapper which come up clearly blown. The fishos or Rob often say "that's a real fattie" or similar. Unfortunately, they appear to be full of air, not scallops...

I've fished there in my own boat and out of that depth being embolised is inevitable with the big fish the area is famed for (as someone said in the thread, the smaller snapper don't seem to suffer - at least as obviously). I tried bringing fish up slowly, but that didn't seem to make a difference. I think combined with the huge effort the big fish make during a typical fight, that they just can't survive.

But Rob Parker often returns them - off camera. Maybe after a quick vent or similar? Fingers crossed at least some make it.

I make a conscious choice to only do that a couple of times on a Far North trip. I know that it's likely what we catch will end up in the lodge smoker. The rest of the trip we're fishing in 8-15m and release heaps of fish.

Sometimes I hear an angler say, on releasing one that's a bit iffy: "they've got a better chance than if I iki them" or similar. I guess that's correct, but if it's 100% dead, versus 90% dead, that's not much difference. Hopefully research will show what the story is.

Interesting what FishAddict says re drop weights. I've seen that a bit on Australian YouTube channels, and I thought it looked like a good solution...

 
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