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LPG bottle gas flow problems .......

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dept Of Fishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: LPG bottle gas flow problems .......
    Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 10:46am
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Thanks for that.  I will have to look at this next time I need to get another canister (an compare the price too)
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 9:43am
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The more propane the hotter the flame...or more BTU (energy) per kg.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dept Of Fishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 9:35am
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Hi everyone, new member to the forums here.
I use a small screw on camping stove at times and when I recently bought a new gas canister for itI noticed that it had a different mix than the previous one I had.  One is 25% propane and 75% butane, the other is 20% propane and 80% butane.  Is there any advantage in a higher butane %age?  I got one from Bunnings and I think the other one was from Mitre10.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote bazza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2020 at 11:33am
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Originally posted by Catchelot Catchelot wrote:

Looks like Bazza adjusted the gas jet a wee bit much! LOL
Not guilty .... am surprised Al that you don't remember having farted at your family bbq !

Am enjoying retirement so much that would not go back to work even if they paid me !
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Looks like Bazza adjusted the gas jet a wee bit much! LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 4:00pm
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Will a 9kg bottle be capable of supplying the flow needed for a califont and hob?

I assume you mean the amount of lpg used, in a period of time, drops the internal temp of the 9kg gas bottle, which results in a dramatic pressure to the supply?

I brought this up with a concern with family a while back...
They had asked around others . and no issues.

 As per Dave
My daughter husband and 4 boys , hob and califont is fine unless once in a while after sat morning sports or camping holiday  the showers, and stoves are going hard out.. extreme loading and length time.

 Son wife and 2 children no issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 2:26pm
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I used a 9kg bottle when my 45 ran out.
Ran the Califont fine.
It takes me over a year to use a 45kg bottle.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dagwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 11:48am
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

 Therefore it maybe more prudent to swap a bottle 2x 9kg tanks every month Wink  

Will a 9kg bottle be capable of supplying the flow needed for a califont and hob?
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My 45kg bottles are replaced via my supplier only when I request a replacement. I often find the changeover valve has operated during cooler months when the sun doesn't hit the tanks there is product left in the cylinder. My solution is to wait until spring/summer to get the last out of the tank. Helps that I live alone and don't have too many house guests over winter. 1 x 45kg lpg tank usually lasts between 6-8 months.

We found a similar issue..Our tanks are on the sth side of the house ,always fully shaded.
After a bit of messing around, found that only turning the tank in use. ( in effect Turn off the auto turn to full tank valve). And turn on the full tank when hot water doesnt heat or the hob doesnt light.. bit of a nuisance if in the shower, but usually happens other times. And if in the shower only maybe once a yr..
Now each tank gets fully MT and at least an extra 1 or 2 weeks out of a tank.

It you ask your suppliers, or the truck driver, they will put a tag on your installation that says the tanks must be turned off as above.

From memory the regulations on transporting tanks 25kg and above must be carried vertically in a cage and may need approval/ certification to do so.
Exception is automotive tanks that require certified anchoring and ventilation.
 
We looked into rent or owning lpg tanks.. bottom line even thu the min bottle renal is 2 bottles, and seems expensive, the inconvenience of disconnecting, loading to take for refill, the cost of the refill gas, then home, manhandle into place is just not worth the time the money or effort.

Side note here on cost lpg.
 If you turn over your tanks quick, your cost of lpg per tank is significantly lower than if turn them over  a longer time.
 The cost of your lpg is the cost of the gas inside plus the cost of the time you rent the tank ...more time your total cost of a tank goes up.
 Therefore it maybe more prudent to swap a bottle 2x 9kg tanks every month Wink

Another side note: putting in solar panals and have A rinnai on demand hot water. with solar panels the aim is to use and not return to the grid , as much power as possible. A battery will cost another 17K
 You can store energy (what a battery does) by putting in say a 100 or 180L hot water cylinder ( a way to store energy) with a 2000w element. And excess kw can go to the HWC before going to the grid. If temp is below 65 deg it means the rinni unit gets pre heated water and uses less lpg.
 Which then means (above) even a 4 person household on lpg hot water and hob can easy go to 9kg bottles.

Anyone got a good 2nd hand 180L hwc they dont want?
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My 45kg bottles are replaced via my supplier only when I request a replacement. I often find the changeover valve has operated during cooler months when the sun doesn't hit the tanks there is product left in the cylinder. My solution is to wait until spring/summer to get the last out of the tank. Helps that I live alone and don't have too many house guests over winter. 1 x 45kg lpg tank usually lasts between 6-8 months.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Clutch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 7:17pm
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I'd love to hear the answer Dagwood.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dagwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 6:54pm
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[/QUOTE] New law a couple of years ago means the filling company cannot fill your bottle unless you can transport it upright. [/QUOTE]

Have a trailer with a cage.. piece of cake to lash upright... Will be having a conversation with the local refilling bloke and seeing what he says..
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote krow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 6:13pm
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Originally posted by Dagwood Dagwood wrote:

Slight thread drift! - 
We've just bought a house with a couple of 45kg for the hot water and hob. Does anyone own their own cylinders and get these filled or does everyone just use a delivery company?

It's been a devil of a job trying to compare rates between companies..
New law a couple of years ago means the filling company cannot fill your bottle unless you can transport it upright. 
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Upo to a few yrs or s/, decade or so there was no std in NZ for LPG butane/ iso butane/ propane mix.
 Caused all sorts of issues espec for gas used for automotive. On fill used quick and no power, next the vehicle would go like hell and tank last for ever.

And the bbq / appliances, no heat to cook a steak, next fill would burn it.
 For the last few yrs the BTU /kg....octane....gas mix has been standardised
 And no, they do not separate.. they are full dissoluble..to separate would take very very long impractical lengths of time.. and just carry a container they will mix.
 We/I used to blend gases and assess product separation in pressurised clear glass aerosols in R&D lab work.

If it was an issue it would be common in low use 45kg bottles...We have 2.. each takes a good 2 to 3 months to MT which means the 2nd bottle can be stood , very still for long period, and still still for another 4 to 6 months total...
 Even thu useing, it is vapour pressure off the surface of the liquid gas inside...If did separate even slightly would mean would only be using propane, and get to the butane/ iso butane cooking would be near impossible.
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Propane has a specific gravity of .495 whilst butane is .601 (both as liquid) so the butane naturally ends up below the propane if stored for any length of time.

Always give the bottle a good shake if it hasn't been used for a while to help to recombine them so the butane is not left in the bottom when most of the propane has been used.

Also butane needs a different air to gas ratio (higher) than propane so you should also notice that the flame is more orange/yellow than blue when there is more butane than propane being burnt as it won't be combusted completely when the burners are set properly for LPG. This can also mean more carbon monoxide is produced as the gas is not fully combusted.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 11:12am
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2672638/Rubbish-gas-leaves-users-cold

The difference between propane and butane is that propane will not liquefy until temperatures get down to -40 degrees celsius, but butane turns into liquid at zero degrees. When it is liquid, it sinks to the bottom and becomes harder to use.
A Wellington LPG hardware supplier, who did not want to be named, said when the mix got close to 50 per cent butane it was rubbish. "In the colder months you won't get it out of the bottle."
Separating butane from propane would add extra costs in production, freight and storage, as well as creating a surplus of butane that could go to waste, Mr Gilbert said.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 10:23am
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Winter? Frosty morning?
 Or a tank that is too small for the amount of lpg the appliance draws?
 LPG is pressure is directly related to the ambient temp.
 Hence Dave's  put in a warm bucket water type of soln.

If the tank is too small, say a 2.5kg tank on a bench heater, it will start of well, then slowly coool down as if the tank is near MT.
 Reason is as you draw off the lpg , the volume in the tank increases, and the temp of the tank/liquid inside decreases ( as it a frosty morning) and the pressure decreases.

 The other issue maybe the type of tank fitting.
Most these days have a fitting that is 'spring loaded'. As you screw the regulator hose in, gets to the 'O' ring sealing, pushes the spring loaded valve open to allow gas flow.

Do not over tighten brass fittings
 If these have been over tightened, the threads and seal surfaces get distorted and can stop the spring loaded valve from opening.

And last is the regulator.. is it the correct regulator for the appliance .. check the regular specs stamped on it match the requirement specs on the appliance.

Then lets say up gave a regulator to small, a frosty morning, and fittings that have been abused... or any 2 of these, let alone 3... you will have issues for sure.

As to hard lighting and do have gas... the mixture of gas to air at the point of ignition combines with ambient temp are all critical to ignition.
On a frosty morning it maybe harder to ignite, may need bigger flame to momentary 'heat' the air at point of ign... and a breeze moving air will change the air to fuel ratio.

Side note here.. LPG has a far narrower air to fuel ratio % to ignite in than say petrol.. outside this ratio it will not ignite at all.

I spent over 40yrs working with automotive lpg and 5yrs lpg as a propellant.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote bazza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 9:57am
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OK here goes ... copied from the latest NZMCA magazine :-
 
Of late many members have been having problems with LPG bottles.
 
One of the problems occurs when having replaced the cylinder there is no gas flowing from the cylinder which is caused by an initial excess flow triggering the built in QCC safety valve. The purpose of this valve is to shut off gas flow should a hose or suchlike being damaged or cut.
However this valve can also be triggered by connecting the regulator on too quickly or having another appliance such as freezer, hot water,
or heating being switched on aggravating the problem. This can sometimes be rectified by turning off everything removing regulator and re installing then turning on the cylinder tap all very gradual.
 
Problems most likely to occur in cold weather when gas can be predominantly butane a combination likely to reduce gas pressure resulting in increased flow which triggers the safety shutoff valve.
 
This is one of the good reasons NOT to use swappa bottles instead have them refilled at a reliable outlet that offers control of the grade of gas being supplied & as a general rule you should ensure cylinders are empty as possible thus reducing the ratio of butane gas in the cylinder.
 
By comparison swappa bottles are not emptied before filling so can have huge percentages of butane which is a problem gas, particularly in cold weather.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote bazza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 9:16am
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Originally posted by reel crayze reel crayze wrote:

We have had the same thing when we were away in the caravan.. a very weak flame when the bottle felt like it was was 1/3 full... mind you it may of had something to do with the temp... it was minus 5 or 6 Shocked
 
Yeah and at the risk of appearing pessimistic cannot help but wonder if that is the reason for the problem as it is in swappas interest to swap a 1/3 full bottle and charge for a full one ... whereas if refilling simply pay for the gas supplied to fill. Plus it would seem that doing so not only dramatically increases the profit margin but also the extent of
excess butane in the mix.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote reel crayze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 8:26am
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We have had the same thing when we were away in the caravan.. a very weak flame when the bottle felt like it was was 1/3 full... mind you it may of had something to do with the temp... it was minus 5 or 6 Shocked
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