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Reccs are taking too much

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    Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 6:24pm
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I kayak fish, that’s part of my carbon credits.
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

 
As for targeting other species well you will be hard pressed to fish any bait and not get snapper for a start. Every method I have used the past year I have snagged snapper from sabiki for macs to live bait for JD. You are gonna get them because there are lots, greedy and dumb.


I agree about the supermarket fish condition, how long does it take to get the fish there? If I have to buy, I buy from the markets or a local monger who gets the best gurnard.

Great to see Blue cod being caught in regular numbers in Auck hey. I think thats choice, along with Gurnard have come around cape colville back into the Gulf. To me that shows signs things are getting better

Yep I get your point. Although livebaits do lessen the snapper rate and increase the JD and King rate.

Also their is top water lures at the poles/buoys/and if really lucky in March when water is warmest, floating weed and one of my fav fish mahi mahi. But more often up north.

Have you tried trolling live baits in skirts? You might want to upsize the gear for that one :-).

Get out west to 200m+ and droppper rigs heavy sinkers and big slabs of cuda. Just dont be surprised if you catch all you need on one drop with fish that IMO is superlative to snapper.

Have a look at those idiots on Fishing and Adventure (I love you boys truely, goons lol). They show how to catch other species and they arent experts but have good success at less by catch.
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I think and have said before that supermarket demand for snapper, blue cod, basically rec species needs to be looked at.
I posted up prices on this thread the other day and if our premium inshore fish is not flying off the shelves in its freshest best state then why catch it? How much is thrown out?

As for targeting other species well you will be hard pressed to fish any bait and not get snapper for a start. Every method I have used the past year I have snagged snapper from sabiki for macs to live bait for JD. You are gonna get them because there are lots, greedy and dumb.[/QUOTE]

I saw Blue Cod in New World Whangarei the other day at $59.99 per kg, who in their right mind would pay that?!Shocked
"The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever." - Jacques Cousteau
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Originally posted by FizFisho FizFisho wrote:

Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Don't worry it was legal.



A rec gets caught picking the legal Snapper they want to keep and throwing the dead legal ones back, they can be hammered.
Commercials can actively pick the size of legal fish they are targeting for a specific market


Either situation is flappn wrong imo. as Im sure yours (I mean nothing wrong with catch and release of good breeding fish of course).

And I dont think this is slagging comms. They are just trying to both make a living and feed those super market shoppers who dont fish/spear with fresh fish.

But the dumping of 50cm snapper in the hundreds is just foul and should be illegal. Do comms not keep a count of what they have in the chiller as they go along?

I think reccs being targeted by fisheries is always going to be "what about them" situation as they do have such quiotas. But me personally, I have no ill feelings for the reasons stated, many industries and people who dont fish need the comms.

Reducing recc limits any further will just encourage people to dump dead legal sized fish as well, knowing they can do better.

I like the Port Phillip bay reccs, its 28cm, 10 fish limit, but only allowed 3 fish over 40cm. This encourages keeping the Juvis and only taking a few limited mature Snapper. But then it is the largest enclosed sea water way in the southern hemisphere, a bit like the Med of Aus, without the weather during winter haha. So I dont know bout comms on PPB in comparison, but clearly they can manage that water way, Im surprised we keep struggling to figure out what we have and can manage in the Hauraki Gulf. 

Maybe we should change our mind set on snapper and start targetting Kahawai, kingies, JDs, Gurnard, Puka etc. Also getting more people in the water selectively shooting fish instead of gut hooking a 20cm snapper (im not going to call it a Dumb Stick as I own a couple haha).

If people put the money into more capable boats, the schools of Kings like around Mayor Isl are huge, or went west  via a bar to chase the close to shore deep water species, then a few bigger imo snaps on the way back in, along with chasing tuna on both sides. Then filleting/steaking/smoking the fish and deep freezing. Yes it would mean less tmes out on the water, but food wise their would always be a bounty of different flavours in the freezer. 

But I understand for some its about gettng out often as its a hobbie. Perhaps changing locations and rigs from soft baits to live baits on the bottom around kawau for JDs etc, top water trolling for the albacore and skippies, KY and Kings and if you lucky way out the back on the worm beds of Tiri a beakie might turn up. Plenty of FC430 owners catching marlin. 

We are SOOOOO fixated on Snaps, I just wonder if we gave them a break and kept an eye on comms, if the gulf would be an even easier target on the way out for something different to fill the bin with......

Just an idea.




I think and have said before that supermarket demand for snapper, blue cod, basically rec species needs to be looked at.
I posted up prices on this thread the other day and if our premium inshore fish is not flying off the shelves in its freshest best state then why catch it? How much is thrown out?

As for targeting other species well you will be hard pressed to fish any bait and not get snapper for a start. Every method I have used the past year I have snagged snapper from sabiki for macs to live bait for JD. You are gonna get them because there are lots, greedy and dumb.
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Don't worry it was legal.



A rec gets caught picking the legal Snapper they want to keep and throwing the dead legal ones back, they can be hammered.
Commercials can actively pick the size of legal fish they are targeting for a specific market

Either situation is flappn wrong imo. as Im sure yours (I mean nothing wrong with catch and release of good breeding fish of course).

And I dont think this is slagging comms. They are just trying to both make a living and feed those super market shoppers who dont fish/spear with fresh fish.

But the dumping of 50cm snapper in the hundreds is just foul and should be illegal. Do comms not keep a count of what they have in the chiller as they go along?

I think reccs being targeted by fisheries is always going to be "what about them" situation as they do have such quiotas. But me personally, I have no ill feelings for the reasons stated, many industries and people who dont fish need the comms.

Reducing recc limits any further will just encourage people to dump dead legal sized fish as well, knowing they can do better.

I like the Port Phillip bay reccs, its 28cm, 10 fish limit, but only allowed 3 fish over 40cm. This encourages keeping the Juvis and only taking a few limited mature Snapper. But then it is the largest enclosed sea water way in the southern hemisphere, a bit like the Med of Aus, without the weather during winter haha. So I dont know bout comms on PPB in comparison, but clearly they can manage that water way, Im surprised we keep struggling to figure out what we have and can manage in the Hauraki Gulf. 

Maybe we should change our mind set on snapper and start targetting Kahawai, kingies, JDs, Gurnard, Puka etc. Also getting more people in the water selectively shooting fish instead of gut hooking a 20cm snapper (im not going to call it a Dumb Stick as I own a couple haha).

If people put the money into more capable boats, the schools of Kings like around Mayor Isl are huge, or went west  via a bar to chase the close to shore deep water species, then a few bigger imo snaps on the way back in, along with chasing tuna on both sides. Then filleting/steaking/smoking the fish and deep freezing. Yes it would mean less tmes out on the water, but food wise their would always be a bounty of different flavours in the freezer. 

But I understand for some its about gettng out often as its a hobbie. Perhaps changing locations and rigs from soft baits to live baits on the bottom around kawau for JDs etc, top water trolling for the albacore and skippies, KY and Kings and if you lucky way out the back on the worm beds of Tiri a beakie might turn up. Plenty of FC430 owners catching marlin. 

We are SOOOOO fixated on Snaps, I just wonder if we gave them a break and kept an eye on comms, if the gulf would be an even easier target on the way out for something different to fill the bin with......

Just an idea.


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What bothers me is whether people believe their fishery is stable/sustainable. Some (like Tzer's) may be. I am sure ours is not, and I wonder whether we are the odd ones out.
I don't fish to fill my bin, I fish to fill my day. I am in a lucky position now to do that 12/12. Was always a long term plan, and enjoying every moment of it. So a slow day doesn't worry me - except when I take kids fishing. But I hate watching the decline of a fishery. Especially when we are told it is all in good shape, sustainable and under control.
I wonder whether we have simply suffered from the decade or more of the exploits of the crooks Despositos. Where did he get all the snapper from that he had no quota for? Surely not under the noses of the fishers (rec and comm) in Hawkes Bay - where most would know what he was fishing for in a locality and the comms at least would know he had no quota. Maybe around the corner, out of sight, in front of our beach - permanent pop of about 5 families.
Since his boats were tied up last yr and into this year our fishing did pick up. One year doesn't make a trend tho. But we were catching snapper this year. For years previous if someone caught one, it was news.
FWIW the fishery we go 40k for is in my simplistic view not in good shape either. Minimal rec pressure, decades of sustainable comm fishing. Ave Bluenose we get (when we get them) would be 3-5kg, puka (when we get them) 7-10kg.
Thanks MPI and QMS. great job. Looking foward to the next 30 yrs .
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Haha well you just came round to same as what most of us have been saying Alan.
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So, to get back to Tzers point - about answering the Q and not slagging the comms. I wasn't sure I had much of an answer - but having this discussion and thinking it over, I have some sort of answer. The first point would be there is no blanket answer to the Q. One size doesn't fit all - because of the diversity of the fisheries (eg take marlborough sounds).
So, looking at tzers fishery, (and hopefully he will correct me if I am wrong), I think their answer would be No - the reccs are not taking too much, and no need for any great change.
Looking at our fishery - are the reccs taking too much? In the case of our inshore bit not fished by the comms, absolutely Yes. Some of us tried to get some protection for this reef system 10-20 yrs ago. Didn't happen. Another story. As for the rest of our fishery, I would happily take a reduction in catch (not that I take that much daily anyway), if I thought it would improve the fishery. But my best guess is I would just be contributing to a trawl net catch. When you consider that 10-15 trailers on the beach would be a good day and 30-40% of the days even over summer hols are unfishable (can't get off the beach), my answer also then to the Q would be No. Same answer as Tzer, but two different reasons.
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Ok, so I am not sure if you are querying the statement I made earlier - that our kahawai numbers are way less now than pre- survey days. I can only speak for the area I fish, and have fished for 30 yrs, every year. And our rec pressure, unlike most has not increased. Our fishery is a shadow of what it was in all respects - except crays. Yes, it is a long way from HG.
And from previous info from Tzer, I can see why it is quite different to Gisborne - where they appear to be enjoying a reasonably stable rec fishery. They have a lot of ground that the comms don't or can't fish. And the trawling takes place 10's of kms away from their fishing. So their rec fishing seems sustainable.
We have about 1% of our fishery unavailable for comms, and we share 99% of it with the trawlers on a daily basis. Every day we fish for a gurnard, we usually watch a trawler (or two) go by working the same area.
And we have about 30 rec boats at best that would be fishing the summer, 5-6 over winter. On a fishing comp day, the big annual event we get about 40 boats and about 10 would be from out of town. The prize winning puka 2-3 yrs ago was around 3kg. This from a fishery that used to be excellent puka fishing. I will say it again - like all the fish stocks in our area - it is a pittance compared to 30 yrs ago - incl kahawai. I have a neighbour at the beach - he has fished the area longer than me, maybe a decade more. Serious fisho - game fished several pacific islands, White Is, Fiordland, northland, ranfurly. Every summer at sometime he will bring the topic up - about the lack of kahawia compared to previous.
Maybe it is a local thing. Dunno. All I know is we are unlikely to ever see a puka fishery again until the trawlers stop dragging their nets every week over the area they used to be abundant. They are not trawling for puka, so must be doing similar damage to the rest of the fishery.
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Alan L   The media release from Fisheries NZ lists some "Key Findings" of the 2017-18 recreational harvest surveys, including
The average recreational snapper catch has seen a lot of fluctuation, almost tripling in the last 30 years, but trending down since the last survey in 2012.
The average recreational kahawai catch has more than quadrupled in the Hauraki Gulf.

The only explanation I can find for the statement on snapper is if they have used the figure for the Hauraki Gulf snapper from the 1984 snapper tagging programme designed to use commercial tag return rates to estimate the total snapper population. As an after thought there was an estimate made of recreational harvest based on the returns of tags by recreational fishers.  The Snapper Working Group did not accept these estimates as plausible and did not use them as in the Snapper 1 stock assessment. If anyone had bothered to check with their own FNZ science staff they would have thrown that statement out.  

The first actual survey estimate made of of recreational snapper harvest in snapper 1 was 2857 tonnes in 1994.  The latest Snapper 1 panel survey estimate is 3127 tonnes. I have a lot more faith in the current estimates that any of the early ones.

It should have been a national disgrace that adult kahawai were absent from the HG for about 10 years. The only fish showing up in the early HG harvest surveys were juveniles, and some folks even started to say that this was normal.... There were good numbers of large kahawai in the Gulf from about 2011, hard to say where they came from but they are welcome back. so it depends what time period Fisheries NZ talks about. It is clear kahawai catch in the HG decreased then increased.

There are definitely more recreational boats and more competent fishers than 30 years ago. There are also more regulations and fishers choosing to put fish legal back. There are ways of estimating trends in recreational catch over time but this press release fails to do that.

 
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Don't worry it was legal.


Yep.
Ironic is it not.
A rec gets caught picking the legal Snapper they want to keep and throwing the dead legal ones back, they can be hammered.
Commercials can actively pick the size of legal fish they are targeting for a specific market and throw the dead unwanted legal Snapper overboard or through mincers as long as they only bring their allowance home.
Go figure.
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Don't worry it was legal.
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Comms dumping is nuts, those fish were huge.

I dunno, Im not the expert. Just seems a waste.

I still think large circle hooks is the only way to go.
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Hi John H,
"There were no recreational harvest surveys in 1987-88 (30 years ago) to compare with so the comments on snapper and kahawai are at best, misleading."
I am curious - can you clarify?
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Wife has been in the NRB survey since it started..about 3 yrs or so ago??
 She doesnt get out much and when she does like to chill out with a book
 Funny thing on the initial questionare,
Well she owns the boat...and lot stuff like that....yet the number times she gets out and fish caught is next to nil....but what caught on the boat is more than most boats.

 I suppose at least its a balance between those in the survey that catch a lot..Thumbs Up
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Muppet.  So the NRB survey recruits a random sample of fishers (and non fishers) and collects information on all the fish they catch per day, all methods, all locations, all hours. Generally people cooperate well but it does rely on recall of what was caught and only applies to NZ residents over 15 years old. The regular telephone interview is carefully worded to get people be as accurate as they can. There are always some biases in off-site surveys.
The NIWA on-site surveys at boat ramps collects accurate counts and size of fish caught per boat by area. Interviewers are on the main ramps from soon after dawn to dusk on days when the planes take aerial counts of boats fishing across area 1 (SNA1). Recall is less of a problem and it collects data from residents and visitors to NZ.
It works best for species that are mostly caught by private trailer boats and assumes that the catch from these boats on the main ramps is representative of catch by non-trailer boats.
It also relies on a random selection of survey days across weekends and week days to get the average catch per day to scale up to the whole year.
The proportion of harvest taken by landbased and other methods from the NRB panel survey is used to scale up to a total harvest estimate.
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The media release from Fisheries NZ on the recreational harvest surveys was disappointing on a number of levels.
There were two high quality surveys run concurrently in 2017-18 that are directly comparable to the two surveys run in 2011-12. There are plenty of valid comparisons that can be made between these 4 surveys and the supporting survey collecting data to estimate average weight of catch by species.
A lot of good information was collected about where and when and how catch is taken and changes in the average size of fish kept.
There were no recreational harvest surveys in 1987-88 (30 years ago) to compare with so the comments on snapper and kahawai are at best, misleading.
There were 3 regional surveys in the early 1990s and the first national recreational survey in 1996, but there were problems with the survey method that underestimated the number of fishers.
It is a shame that Fisheries NZ did not do a better job describing the real results from these surveys which cost the tax payer over $4 million.
the croc will know that there is a science working group that helps plan and review these projects and would have done a much better job of saying why these surveys are important and how the results will be used.
I have been off-line for a while - a lot to catch up on.
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Originally posted by brett12 brett12 wrote:

Originally posted by puff puff wrote:

So are recreational fishers taking to much?
I’ve the years I would say no.
I guess the depletion of fish stock is due to the commercial industry and NOT recreational fishers.
We would not be having this discussion if the comms sector pillaged the ocean over the years.
To say that rec fishers are taking to much is really pathetic imho.
If rec fishers stopped tomorrow how long would it take for the fish stock to return?
If comms stopped tomorrow how long would it take for the fish stock to return?
The above is an exact example of how most recreational fishers and most of the same old posters in this thread, all have the head in the sand attitude.
The TACC of snapper has been the same amount for nearly 20 years. 6.5k tons. https://figure.nz/chart/XuZ4uvsOpxD1Tz8E-x8VjAOPd1BSo2TBc
In the same time frame, the NZ population has increased by 1 million, so the recreational fishers would have increased proportionately as well.
As for the so-called recreational catch surveys, they are and have always been flawed. In my circles, it has always been agreed that at least 50% of the recreational catch is caught by 20% of recreational fishers.
These are the more experienced fishers who are fishing very early in the morning or in the late evening and are home before any of the volunteer surveyors are out of bed and any aerial surveys. Do you think any of their catch is counted? No. So these surveys are only based on about 50% of the recreational catch.
So, in essence, these so-called surveys have always been way underestimated.
Just imagine the coastline of NZ and the amount of beach launching of these fishers. Do you think they are surveyed. I think not.
I don't know the answer, but to blame solely the commercial fixed catch is just deluded. Who knows what the actual recreational catch is.   
 



I will tell you something about snapper. Very often especially in spring they can and do bite best in the day like late morning into early arvo. Which does away with that theory and if the survey doesn't include the early risers and late stop outs then it is deeply flawed. Maybe the croc can confirm they are indeed counted.

From what I saw of the survey they counted all fishing methods not just boats. Count the fish a wharf fisho catches, might be ok in summer but there are other LB opportunities being found.
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Tzer, I know Tolaga well - I got married there. Wild West - some things don't change. And yes - I agree, recs are capable of hammering a fishery. I think it depends on which fishery tho. Like the Blue Cod I mentioned earlier - we have had several spots that used to fish well, pretty well stuffed now - and I blame the recs. When I find a decent BC spot I tell no one. Not to be selfish - but more to hope it perseveres.  Most of those areas the comm guys don't fish, and would be avoiding with nets. And puka - yes - to an extent in our area. We have lost all our accessible puka - the trawlers constantly work the same area we would have fished for them (70-100m). Our bottom is ideal (for what limited knowledge I know of trawling) for trawling. Mud, flat, no structure as far as the eye can see, and gently sloping. You could put a boat on auto for days and let it go. I nearly got run down by a trawler while fishing at 100m couple years back.   Finally made the call he was going to hit me, pulled the anchor enough, left the rods out and moved away. Nobody in the wheel house.
I have all the original sonar data for our area (what the charts are constructed from)- every ping mark, and have scoured it for variations maybe too small to warrant a contour mark. Not there.
Consequently I think I was the first - along with my couple of mates in the earlier pic (partners in crime) to venture wide to some useful contour (40k out). We bottom fish at 320m+ (and try for broads at 500+). When we started several years back we were fishing with comm boats, using TLD30s and Penn Senators etc. And the only trailer boats there. We would get 2-3 puka, and or bluenose, (hopefully) then spend rest of day hunting broads.
Guess what - it has caught on. We now have 7m+ boats launching from elsewhere, equipped with Minkotas, elec reels etc. Not unusual to see 6 boats out there - and one serial visitor posts on FB a deck full of puka!!. I was going to report it to MPI - but I don't know how many on boat, I don't have/do FB etc. But the same guy would be back the next day - weather permitting. I am watching closely to see how long this spot fishes. But I wish people would understand that just because you are entitled to a limit doesn't necessarily mean the fishery is undamaged by taking it.
But I seriously doubt the local rec fishers have pillaged our gurnard fishery - the numbers don't add up.
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Alan
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Originally posted by Sanchez Sanchez wrote:

brett your argument goes both ways in terms of unreported catch. but by a vastly different scope. Take a look. 


I think its fair to say that most are saying that comparing rec fishing to com fishing is nuts . Especially destructive, repetitive trawling that might result in one or two thirds of catch being dumped over the side, as opposed to being put on the BBQ.  

 


Looking at that graph. Unreported catch soared directly after the QMS was introduced. Predictable when the state and big business seize a national asset.
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