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    Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 9:41pm
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I think everyone has had a good talk about this now so lets just lock this thread before what has been a pretty good discussion so far becomes a less good one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 8:21pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Are there any Maori on Fish.net who can give a genuine inside to how it all works??
From the outside looking in,this thread appears to be a white mans domain being very racist against Maori who through no fault of their own were given this "Customary right"by the white man.
There said it. That is what a person of the public probably would see if they stumbled across this thread.

Probably go as far as to lock the thread or have it totally deleted !
Clearly you have been drinking.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 8:20pm
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Cut the bullsh*t pjc, being bought up in a non racist family I consider your remarks offensive.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 8:07pm
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Are there any Maori on Fish.net who can give a genuine inside to how it all works??
From the outside looking in,this thread appears to be a white mans domain being very racist against Maori who through no fault of their own were given this "Customary right"by the white man.
There said it. That is what a person of the public probably would see if they stumbled across this thread.

Probably go as far as to lock the thread or have it totally deleted !
water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 7:30pm
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More like post-apartheid SA to my mind and everyone just sucks it up.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 5:52pm
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Personal feeling is this is apartheid

 Glad someone else posted that...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 1:51pm
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Personal feeling is this is apartheid
slowly going where everyone else has already been
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 9:06pm
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Maori own a big portion of the commercial fleet and quota. They fish a lot of it by leasing foreign vessels. What are they doing to fix the massive issues we have with commercial fishing? Where is all this special management that they are going to apply?

I am sure you can sit down with dedicated and well intentioned Komatua to discuss how they would like to manage their local fish stocks. I haven't myself, but I know others who have. That doesn't mean that they will do it better than a properly designed scientific model that hasn't been politically hijacked. Their background in fisheries management isn't with a 5 million population. What you would really be relying on is the political clout of Maori to achieve fisheries controls that the government could implement tomorrow if they weren't so 'captured' by the commercial sector. That to me is just plain dumb and we should focus more on sorting out our political system instead.

My personal experience has been to be told that I am 'unwelcome' in an area that the local Maori felt they 'owned' and to be threatened with assault by a Ngati Whatua who told me that they 'owned the sea' when I suggested that he slowed down and stopped putting other boats at danger by speeding through the marina.  You can't ignore that whilst one part of Maori politics may be well intentioned, others may not be the same.  Who knows which side will hold the political power over any fisheries management in the future. The ones that are good are often very good, but the ones that are bad.....

As I have already said, I believe in letting small coastal Maori communities have a bit more say in how their local area is managed, and those with real history in an area to have some additional rights to feed themselves in a traditional way.  The trouble with SeaChange etc is that it tries to go way beyond that. My families history in the Hauraki Gulf goes back nearly 100 years and in the Northland fisheries probably predates the Treaty. I have been fishing both personally for over 50 years. So unless some person has a much better and consistent history in the fishery why am I going to give over control to them unless I truly believe that it will produce long term good and not just end up as another political hijack? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 7:32pm
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You maybe correct "Tagit" but we need to reckonise Maori rights. This is what "sea change" was to do.Give Maori rights to sea and foreshore which allowed you and I to fish but they could set the limit and species. I am not Maori nor have relations who are but the time is coming fast whether we like it or Maori have rights and we to accept that fact.

Once again I am not saying you and I have depleted the stock but non Maori commercial activity certainly have.

Maybe time you sat down with some Komatua and listen to what they have to say not the young radical who think we owe them something.

Fault on both sides but we need to reckonise their rights.Where do you get 750.000 maori from fishing with modern tools??please explain!
water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 6:48pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

What would be so wrong with Maori only fishing zones?We the European haven't done a very good job of looking after the natural resources,I can see this would become an apartheid sort of issue. But before European arrived Maori would fish an area whether that be for shellfish/flounder then close for a period of time(rahui)and move somewhere else and repeat the process over again.
If we look overseas ,particularly America where the Europeans killed of the buffalo to drive the red Indian out of futile land.
Africa the poaching that goes on maybe down by natives supplying a European driven market or lions(big cats)as trophy hunts by the wealthy. Asia destroying plantations for palm oil which is killing of the Asian elephant/gorilla .We have a lot to answer for!


You can not compare 70,000 subsistence living Maori   in the 1800s with 750,000 part maori fishing with modern tools.
70000 people with no modern tools couldn't wreck the fishery if they tried. What they could do is deplete a small area and then move on. By the time they went back it would be recovered because there was so much area and so few people. Cant do that with 750,000 people anymore. Dreaming that things can be managed like they were when NZ was almost unpopulated isn't the answer and doesn't mean that traditional Maori management will work with a 5 million population
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:48pm
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Originally posted by feeder feeder wrote:

The original object of this thread was to inform people like myself whom have had no prior experience of the customary permit system.
 
I have had no problem with the customary permits until I saw for myself the outrageous greed of the permit holders and the issuing party and the inevitable wastage after the cultural event.
 
If there was a national standard on permit take and permit issuing then it could be on the right track.
 
I don't see myself bothering to apply for a customary permit, I can catch enough to feed my family under existing rules.
 
Mataitai reserves as I understand, are for customary and recreational fishers under the current law, no commercial.
 
Cheers

+1. 
I can't ever see me applying for a permit.
Alan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:38pm
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Originally posted by feeder feeder wrote:

The original object of this thread was to inform people like myself whom have had no prior experience of the customary permit system.
 
I have had no problem with the customary permits until I saw for myself the outrageous greed of the permit holders and the issuing party and the inevitable wastage after the cultural event.
 
If there was a national standard on permit take and permit issuing then it could be on the right track.
 
I don't see myself bothering to apply for a customary permit, I can catch enough to feed my family under existing rules.
 
Mataitai reserves as I understand, are for customary and recreational fishers under the current law, no commercial.
 
Cheers

I can't see too many of us disagreeing with that Feeder


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:23pm
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The original object of this thread was to inform people like myself whom have had no prior experience of the customary permit system.
 
I have had no problem with the customary permits until I saw for myself the outrageous greed of the permit holders and the issuing party and the inevitable wastage after the cultural event.
 
If there was a national standard on permit take and permit issuing then it could be on the right track.
 
I don't see myself bothering to apply for a customary permit, I can catch enough to feed my family under existing rules.
 
Mataitai reserves as I understand, are for customary and recreational fishers under the current law, no commercial.
 
Cheers
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:22pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

What would be so wrong with Maori only fishing zones?We the European haven't done a very good job of looking after the natural resources,I can see this would become an apartheid sort of issue. But before European arrived Maori would fish an area whether that be for shellfish/flounder then close for a period of time(rahui)and move somewhere else and repeat the process over again.
If we look overseas ,particularly America where the Europeans killed of the buffalo to drive the red Indian out of futile land.
Africa the poaching that goes on maybe down by natives supplying a European driven market or lions(big cats)as trophy hunts by the wealthy. Asia destroying plantations for palm oil which is killing of the Asian elephant/gorilla .We have a lot to answer for!

Yes, Pakeha haven't exactly been a shining light. Pakeha, Maori, Asian blah blah, some good fullas everywhere, some bad fullas everywhere


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:14pm
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What would be so wrong with Maori only fishing zones?We the European haven't done a very good job of looking after the natural resources,I can see this would become an apartheid sort of issue. But before European arrived Maori would fish an area whether that be for shellfish/flounder then close for a period of time(rahui)and move somewhere else and repeat the process over again.
If we look overseas ,particularly America where the Europeans killed of the buffalo to drive the red Indian out of futile land.
Africa the poaching that goes on maybe down by natives supplying a European driven market or lions(big cats)as trophy hunts by the wealthy. Asia destroying plantations for palm oil which is killing of the Asian elephant/gorilla .We have a lot to answer for!
water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 4:27pm
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

 
"from a Napier customary fishing reserve"
'the Moremore Mataitai
(customary fishing reserve)"
Does this mean there are reserves dotted around NZ that only NZers of Maori descent can access?

There is a risk of this happening under some of the proposals that have been investigated. There is also the case of Motiti Island which has been discussed recently where is appears that the Maori owners are requesting exclusive access to the waters around the island. Either that or control that gives them similar rights. There seems to be a definite push happening to give Maori more control over our inshore fisheries so you should stay across the various things that are going on and be active if you want to influence this at all. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 4:02pm
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Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:


Here are "customary permit" cases reported in the Herald online. Some bits quoted -
 
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>Two
Northland men who collected excess and undersize scallops in the Bay of Islands
then used a false retrospective customary permit<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>trio were
nabbed after taking 2638 green-lipped mussels - the daily limit is 50 per
person - from Mair Bank, off Marsden Pt……..Hei attempted to organise a
retrospective customary permit to gather shellfish and tried to organise access
to Otangarei Marae to evade the fisheries officer.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt;" ="element"=""><span style='font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>convicted of altering a kaimoana
customary fishing document to take smaller than allowed paua……He was also fined
for taking more paua than permitted while diving off the Wairarapa coast.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>falsely
obtaining a customary authorisation to take paua……secured customary
authorisations for fictitious events which allowed him to take more than the
daily limit…….selling his paua for $22-$25 a kilogram, netting the group a
profit of between $9085 and $12098.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>caught
selling paua fritters in Queen Elizabeth Park during Golden Shears became
aggressive and threatened two fisheries officers,…..He had obtained a customary
permit for 60 paua for a 21st birthday party<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>A man who
used a falsified Maori customary permit to poach paua has been sentenced<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>senior
Maori guardian of a Hawke's Bay customary food gathering area is facing charges
after allegedly misleading fisheries officers……..discovered the men on November
8 at Clifton, south of Napier, allegedly with extra seafood - much of it
undersized - and the permit altered to include the extra day.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>Matt
Paku, a commercial eel and paua fisherman, said legislation governing customary
permits needs to be reworked and registered kaitiaki (guardians) held
accountable at law for the permits they issue.

"It's too loose and needs to be tightened up.

"It's the inconsistency that lets a kaitiaki play God with the fisheries
whether it's allowing undersized fish to be taken, the use or not of (breathing
apparatus) tanks and whether the catch is even reported afterwards," he
said.

"And you don't even have to be Maori. If an Asian or a Russian can
influence a kaitiaki to sign a permit, then they're free to fish under
customary right that ordinarily belongs only to Maori.

"The customary fishing permits are so loose and it's us Maori who are the
burglars and the crooks once again. Is this a Maori fishing right or a
free-for-all?<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>A Maori
guardian and an MP have expressed anger at hundreds of crayfish being taken
from a Napier customary fishing reserve using commercial fishing equipment………up
to 40 commercial crayfish pots had been seen in the Moremore Mataitai
(customary fishing reserve), gathering up to 1400 crayfish a week for
"traditional purposes",……<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>obtaining
a Maori customary fishing permit, but learned later that this covered seafood
only for hui and tangi and the fish could not be sold to anyone.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><o:p><font face="Arial" size="1"> I am sure this is the tip (ie that's come to Fisheries attention) of a huge iceberg of graft.</o:p>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">



"from a Napier customary fishing reserve"
'the Moremore Mataitai
(customary fishing reserve)"
Does this mean there are reserves dotted around NZ that only NZers of Maori descent can access?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 1:56pm
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"Grasshopper - you can be pretty sure all the wrinkles in the system (and more we prob haven't thought of) are well known in the small communities that have access to the permits."
Regards
Alan  

My point is how well are these wrinkles now known to unscrupulous individuals OUTSIDE these small communities  after being broadcast here, remember anyone can apply for a permit at the local marae
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 12:22pm
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A Maori guardian and an MP have expressed anger at hundreds of crayfish being taken from a Napier customary fishing reserve using commercial fishing equipment………up to 40 commercial crayfish pots had been seen in the Moremore Mataitai (customary fishing reserve), gathering up to 1400 crayfish a week for "traditional purposes",……

I seem to recall something about that one. A guy with access to CPs had teamed up with a Commercial operator to extract the fish. They had some sort of a Joint Venture going. Ended up in court.

Grasshopper - you can be pretty sure all the wrinkles in the system (and more we prob haven't thought of) are well known in the small communities that have access to the permits.
Regards
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 12:05pm
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While this post has been awesome for bringing to light some of the shortfalls of the customary permit privilege i expect its also has the double edged sword effect of publicizing and educating a wider audience some whom may not have been fully aware that such a privilege/practice exists and to what extent, there's even been some useful pointers on how permits can be abused for those who may be that way inclined

Im sure those who currently abuse the system are already "up to speed" but it would be interesting to be able to see if there's an increase of permits at least applied for...
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