Honda bf 225

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    Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:13pm
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Wanting to hear from people with one of these motors,
What props are you running, on what boats, and what sort of top speed are you getting?
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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What prop will depend on end use.. ie race, cruiser , general use etc.. and that will depend on the weight of the boat
225 will be max possible  marginal over power for most 6m boats.. alloy or glass...
 over that uptp around 7m it would start to get min power
 But that depends on boat expectations

What boat are you thinking of and currently what hp does it have? what is top speed best trim and current gear box ratio?
And diameter current prop?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2017 at 1:10pm
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Currently im running a honda bf130, on a figlass viscount, its been lengthened 700mm. The weight wont be an issue. Get an easy 55kmh with 3 pob, 5500 rpm. Estimated weight 1900kg. 16 inch vengeance prop.
I have an option to get a 225, bigger that i want or need, but the right price, so im considering..
Generally cruising, occasional wakke boarding or ski biscuiting.
I did crunch some numbers, but my head started to hurt.
Seemed 50 mph was the predicted top speed, didnt seem much given nearly double hp.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Crunching numbers without head hurt Wink
 A given weight (mass) with a given force will move at a given speed.. bit simplistic but basic physics.

Therefore a 130  with manufactures max WOT operating range of 5000 to 6000 rpms being reached @ 5500 rpms @ 55km works out to around 1850kg .. 1900 kgs gross weight on the water at best trim, constant adjusted for modern post mid 60s + trailer boats.

This also assumes the engine is currently at correct height at cruise and at best trim for above and everything below.

Current Setup:
 With a pitch of 16 with that prop grip design.. more cupping..
you have a slip of 18% at WoT.. for a general use boat well powered should have around 5% @ around mid way or slightly below Manufacturer recommended WoT operating spec... Which you are at.
  Ideally you should have a smaller pitch...14/15" with a similar GRIP prop  which would give around 7/ 12% slip.

In essence, baed on the boats weight you are well under powered.. this effects cruise speeds, economy at reasonable cruise speeds, and far more serious how he hull performs in chop, over wakes ,bar crossing etc.
 Any change of prop beyond what you have, will in economy only.. slightly.. and will not be worth the capital investment

 OK lets crunch numbers on a 225 hp
WoT @ 1900 kg (above calc weight + bit more for bigger engine) crunches to around  40 knts, 45 mph 72kmh
Prop:
 WoT
  Crunching numbers  with diff gear box ratio in the 225 a  suitable prop would be around 14 1/4" diameter and a pitch of 17" to give WoT slip of 5%
 Cruise: 3800 rpms @ 12/ 15% slip will cruise around 32/ 33 mph 28 knts/ 53 kmh.
  Economy It will do so at very close to your current 4000/ 4200 rpms cruise speed.. very likely to be around 10% + less on distance per Litre fuel basis.
 The performance...
Always make sure everyone is holding on.. trim down, move throttle forward a little.. let it go, as comes up on plain , trim up and you will be near to a 3500/ 3700 rpms cruise speed... AND still not touched the throttle.
Flat water fast cruise,  got to cross a largish wake...
 currently would back off throttle, trim down a little, line u and cross, bit uncomfortable (???) yes?
225 or well powered.. fast cruise, line up, trim down a bit, no change of throttle, cross more comfortable or as comfortable as before, at far greater speed.
 Get into bad chop on way home, before trouble holding speed, adjusting throttle, trim as sets change, a quite a few big bow crashes etc yes?
 Well powered/ 225 .. set trim set throttle, faster speed, and MAYBE 1 bow crash.. you now have power in reserve at any given low to high mid range rpms to be able to hit a wave/ whatever and not slow down or stall.

 225 hp Thats getting into over powered.... just means dont play hero, always warn and check a crew is not playing hero.. when taking off.  No different to diving a lower end muscle car on the roads...

What WILL happen. If you are currently ' happy with current cruise speeds etc, and continue t travel at them you will use FAR less than current fuel levels.
 So in practice, you WILL travel at far faster cruise speeds
1/ Engine noise will be far less
2/ ride far smoother
3/ use same amount as fuel.
4/ will travel even faster still far quieter and smoother once filling up after a couple trips and find only see another 5 or 7L fuel being used for the day fishing trip.
5/ towing , will use far less fuel, engine will not longer working with huge amounts of reserve power.

And yes this is all one from crunching numbers
 Final Prop selection on 225.
Take data from what ever prop is on the boat.. so long reaches in manufacture WoT range 130/ 225 honda 5000/6000 rpms... Crunch numbers and then select prop IF the capital investment justifies it... or wait on trade me or what you want to turn u for $ 100/150.

End Of the day?
 Would I do the swap?

 Hell yeah
 I did.. from a min powered (you are under powered) 115 well proped on a 1200kg gross weight on water commander to a 150 hp.. resulting in very similar numbers (crunching and in practice) to what you are looking at
 
I hope this answers your questions and those that would be asking
 Cheers
Steps
 PS Im looking for someone to turn the Java based calculators I have nearly finished creating to make the number crunching simple into android/ apple apps
 Creating them .. THATS head hurt when coding by the seat of the pants .. and havnt even looked at how to make a smart phone app yetWacko

PS the 130 would be every suitable on the back of a 5.0/ 5.5m 1050/ 1250 tops alloy/ glass cabin boat....

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 9:32pm
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Cheers steps, those are pretty much the numbers i have got too. I have had the boat tapped out at 60 kmh as is.
As far as under powered, i dont think so, especially since i added the extra waterline length, it gets up and goes easily, even with the whole tribe plus gear on board, wake boards, water skis, 2 ski biscuits at a time, and its ability to deal with chop and wakes has been great. Even down at 20kmk in really nasty chop, it dosent drag its bum in the water.
In some ways i would have thought i would get more top end with a 225, but i came up with similar figures as you. I was asking for other peoples experiences, as it either backs up the calcs, or shows them inaccurate.

Im well aware that different hulls behave differently. I had this motor and prop on a 5.5m alloy pontoon boat that weighed half, if nor less than half, of the weight of this hull, but only achieved the same top speed.

Sure 225 hp, will give me better pick up, but its not really the reason im doing it, its more because the motor is available at the right price..plus the lean burn technology, will only improve my economy. I have read of better economy on bigger boats, with this motor, than i am getting out of my 130..and some longer trips are on the cards
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Hi Mate, Awesome engines
 
I'm running a BF225 behind a 746 Gen 2 Southern. 
 
Prop 4 blade Solas titan 14 1/4 x 17P
 
Cruise 22 knots 3800 rpm
 
Top Speed 34 knots 5500 rpm
 
Fuel economy is a bit up in the air at the moment as my flow sensor hasn't been working great but from what I can see its nearly 1 litre per NM at cruise and trolling.
 
Steps - Be keen to hear your thoughts on props.  Would like to get the boat up to the max RPM 6000 to take some load off the engine.  After talking with others I think the 4 blade is giving me to much stern lift and the boat running quite flat and pushing more water than it needs. Thinking 3 blade 17p to start then maybe 3 blade 16p larger diameter.
 
Cheers 
 
 
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When 1st started crunching numbers a few yrs ago.. the uneducated hit in miss type attitudes  force so much of this to PMs  and private emails...
 Now much of that has gone, and built up a good data base for  modern trailer type boats.Which as it turns out, due to road limits on beam, the difference between hulls doing this is not significant in change of Constants to effect results.What ha more effect is the faster the boat goes, the less friction and constants can increase between 3 to 7 pts.

 OK SM
Assuming engine cis at correct height, WoT is at best trim on flat water
Your boat gross weight on the water  weighs in at around 2400/2500 kgs
 At WoT you have a slip of around 18%
At Cruise A slip of 24% and using around 120hp at the prop @ 3800
Both a little high...
 you are running a large 4 blade, that is likely to have a lot of cupping and rake.. therefore the high slip unlikely due to 'grip' but rather not having much power in reserve at cruise rpms
 I do not have the HP/ rpm charts for your engine to know what max hp is at 3800 rpms... ideally if well or over powered would be at least 138 hp.. which I suspect is well down

Would like to get the boat up to the max RPM 6000 to take some load off the engine.

Ok yes will enable to travel at higher rpms.. but will also mean to cruise the same speed will also mean higher rps.. and wil also increase fuel consumption even thu higher pms will mean a LITTLE more power in reserve. Chances are the increase in fuel could be in the 15 to 25% increase range.
 A I said in previous post, proping for general use, one aims for around mid point or slightly below the manufactures WoT rpm range, which is where you at.

I think the 4 blade is giving me to much stern lift and the boat running quite flat and pushing more water than it needs.
No it will not be the 4 blade, but rather the extra rake most 4 blades have. Yes more rake will lift the stern (correct fix instead of a permatrim on the cavitation plate)
 OK will explain why... a little simplistic but hope you get the idea
The extra rake has the 'thrust' of water out the rear in a more narrow diameter.. top doesnt break the water till pretty well dissipated. An ordinary prop has wider 'thrust'.. the top breaks the water before dissipates. This means no thrust at the top of the 'thrust' tube... more trust at the bottom, and because of this more thrust at the bottom, it acts like a lever to put the bow higher.
 Personally I prefer more rake  more flat ride (so long as not excessive) where a boat is low to min powered.. means slower hole shot.. dont send ppl over the stern as easy..and if the bow wake at cruise is close to midway down the water line (not overall boat length.) It gives far more stability in chop.

Thinking 3 blade 17p to start then maybe 3 blade 16p larger diameter.
 Currently you have a 4 blade 14 1/4 x 17
 
going to a 3 blade same diameter same 17" pitch will give you more rpms due to higher slip.. less grip.. going on data supplied not ideally the way to go.. yes you will get higher WoT rpms, most properly close to if not over the max 6000.
 At 6000 rpms 17 pitch

 
Going to larger diameter with lot cupping.. maybe another min 1/4, maybe 1/2" (guestimate this) 16 pitch, will increase rpms again close to if not on the 6000 wot.
 Will still give you the same WoT  speed (given weight moved by a given hp will only reach the same speed.. give or take a couple nm in practice)
With a 16 pitch the even with a slight decrease in slip the current 3800 wil only change maybe 50  to 100 rpms at most... in essence little or insignificant change.
 Having a WoT on a boat 7m+ of 34/35knts fully loaded, getting midway manufactures max wot rpm range, you are already very well propped
 knocking out a little rake, and the 4 blade will loose quite a bit of around dock/ moorings inside reef manoeuvrability.. including rev. and will loose a little performance in chop/ wakes etc. As to pick up economy changing, more likely to hurt, and could do so significantly.
Dropping your cruise speed just a couple knt wil make significant difference to economy
If want to increase economy.. less loading at low to high fast cruise then look at bigger engine.. even then the capital investment would justify the gains.. yu would be able to cruise 2 or 3 knts faster at current economy, have a faster WoT speed.. just depends how dep your pockets are lol
Lets say 300 hp for arguments sake
WoT .. would be about 40/ 41 knots.. assuming WoT still 5000/ 6000.. propped  to 5500
 Would have 19" prop Assuming same gearbox ratio
And a cruise @ 3800 28/29 knts and use around 5 to 10 % more fuel . If travelled at the old 22 knts @ about 2800 rpms would pick up a good 10% in economy

 Bit more info than asked, but based on others, they then ask more questions.. so bit pre-emptive ok?

 Bottom line though
 Current rig/ motor , someone has picked out a very nice prop.. be it crunching , numbers, experience , hit in miss or just plain damn luck....
 If say a elcheapo for max $100 15, 16 or 17 " pitch, around 14 1/2 to 15" stainless prop turned up on Trademe, I would buy it try it.
 But pretty damn sure would go back to the 4 blade you now have.

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Shrekky
In some ways i would have thought i would get more top end with a 225,
 Current 1900 kg, 55km, 130 hp WoT
225hp will give around 70/72 kmh

 
That is damn significant
 this in this type/ size boat is bloody motoring.. do that in a fully loaded commander or a 5.5 rayglass, you NEED dead flat water, no wakes no tiny chop, anything more than that its down righ dangerous and hairy to say the least... I see you boat being at least the same.

I had this motor and prop on a 5.5m alloy pontoon boat that weighed half, if nor less than half, of the weight of this hull, but only achieved the same top speed.
 You mean the 130 hp?
 The general ball park weight for a 5.5m alloy/ glass cabin boat fully loaded is around the 1100 to 1250kg
 That is NOT close to 1/2 as light
 IF the motor is correct height and WoT rpms are in the manufactures WoT range,Then woT speed would be around 38/40  knts,  69/ 74 kmh
 Thats a good 20kmh over your current boat.
 If did not achieve this then would look at things like engine height.

 A 130/ 140hp engine on a a 5.5 cabin makes for a very well powered and performing rig.
 !50 gets to being over powered.
 A 115 is min powered, min and under is underpowered cant take full advantage of the hull stability and performance
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Sea Mashed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2017 at 8:38am
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Thanks a lot for your intel Steps!  Good hearing from guys that know what they are talking about!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 4:17pm
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Update..
225 fitted.
Achieves 74kmh at 6000rpm, with throttle left.

3500rpm 40kmh .47l per k
4000 rpm 47 kmh .55 lpk
4500 rpm 55 kmh .63 lpk
5000 rpm 60 kmh .77 lpk
5500 rpm 67 kmh .89 lpk
6000 rpm, 73 kmh .94 lpk

Its very quiet and smooth, can talk normally at 70kmh.
Im a very happy chappy.
Wouldnt mind trying a 18 inch vengeance prop on it.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 5:19pm
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Damn .. what was the gear box ratio ? 1.86 (?) 
WoT   5000 to 6000 right?
 what prop do you have ? assuming a 17" pitch...
 And this at normal fully loaded boat?
Sry being lazy . short on time to go thru all the above.
That gives a loaded on water gross weight around 2000kg.
A note here hondas tend to have around an 'extra 5 to 10% hp over adverised...

3500rpm 40kmh    18.1%
4000 rpm 47 kmh 15.7%   Normal cruise speed?  ideal slip around the 12 to 15%
4500 rpm 55 kmh 16.8% suspect data.
5000 rpm 60 kmh  13.8
5500 rpm 67 kmh 12.5%
6000 rpm, 73 kmh  13%   ideally around 5 to 8 max

The aim to put, fully loaded WoT rpms mid way/ 100 rpms below.. ie 5400 rpms
 With .. for larger weight boat  WoT slip around the 5 to 7% slip.


@ 5400 @ 74km requires a 18" [email protected] 6% slip
 another inch of pitch will drop the rpms down to about 5700/ 5800. an increase in diameter about 1/2" to 5/8" another 150/200 rpms droping the slip
 This will give around a WoT 5450/ 5550 mark combined together.
So now the 4000 "cruise" increases to  around 52km (32 mph)
 WoT may pick up a couple km.
 Cruise will pick up maybe another 2 to 5% economy  min.

 Dont get too tied up in prop marketing propaganda..
Just need the right stainless prop to give the slip and WoT numbers required.
 So .. IF current prop is 17" pitch, go to a 18" same model / or similarr rake and cupping with around 1/2 to 5/8" increase in diameter.
 If new model has more cupping tend to the 1/2"  if less tend to 3/4" diam.




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Yeah steps, i have a 17 inch prop, minimal cupping if any.
As you can see, ive got great economy figures.
I have 2 props, identical as far as i can tell.
Options are to get one cupped and tweaked if possible, or get my mitts on a 18 inch vengeance prop.
My last motor benifitted significantly with a vengeance prop, less slip, held top speed with a load on it, less tendency to cavitate.
My height seems spot on, looking over the back i can see the top of the cavitation plate, but i do get cavitation on turns unless i trim right in.
Fantastic holeshot..
Ive graphed the above results, the fuel consumption gets away over 4500 rpm, vtec territory.
Top speed is not really essential, but i do feel i can improve on my cruise economy..even though its pretty darned good now..
Oh, and tests were done with 2 pob, on fresh water.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Be careful dropping the WOT rpms too much on that Honda with a bigger prop. We have a pair of BF175's (same engine but without Vtec etc) and when they topped out at around 5400 - 5500 rpms they burned 40% more fuel at cruise than they did once we propped them for ~5900 at WOT. They didn't like being overloaded at all.
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Thanks for that info tagit.
I think if you load them up, you dont get the leanburn occuring, which i believe is dependent on a lighty loaded motor, producing a cooler exhaust temp, that triggers the computer in to leaning out the mixture.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Options are to get one cupped and tweaked if possible, or get my mitts on a 18 inch vengeance prop.

Bottom line Tweeking a prop is expensive, and where one is say racing, needs that extra 0.5sec on a circuit..

Do NOT go above a 18" pitch.. crunching numbers  is around  17.8"...

It is simple to calc between similar props, but the moment one starts to introduce other major design differences, cupping rake, then one then enters into more of an educated estimate.

Oh, and tests were done with 2 pob, on fresh water.
 
This again adds a further parameters..
1/ Im assuming the boat is at Full normal loaded gross weight on the water.. ppl gear , fuel , everything.... See comments below... And Tagits.
 2/ Fresh water has a higher drag co efficient..on plaining hulls yes even thu salt is denser...but its far more buoyant..a good 2 to 5%.
 Therefore 6000 rpms WoT on fresh water will go out around 2 to 300 rpms higher on sea water..

Since the current prop has little cupping ( good info)  and most proberly little rake, chances are a 17" with good lot cupping and more rake will suit well.
 I have assumed that the current prop is stainless with a reasonable cupping/ rake...which I think any reasonable dealer would go down that route anyway.

 If more cupping and rake over a prop that has little (keeping in mind its only 0.8" diff in pitch..) gets that grip right on a 17" pitch.. you also pick up the advantage of less speed at the tip of the prop, therefore less power loss , pick up that in economy
 The lack rake would also explain  ventilation in turns, espec if motor a little on high side.

My height seems spot on, looking over the back i can see the top of the cavitation plate,

Is the bottom of the plate above the water? The bottom surface needs to be in the water, and ideally have a little water spilling over the bow end like condensation running down a window... It is better for a general use boat to be slightly lower than higher... One does have the limitation of mounting holes position.

We have a pair of BF175's (same engine but without Vtec etc) and when they topped out at around 5400 - 5500 rpms they burned 40% more fuel at cruise than they did once we propped them for ~5900 at WOT. They didn't like being overloaded at all.

 yes...I state, repeat so many times " normal fully loaded gross weight"   and mid way in WoT spec... Which happens that when the boat is not fully loaded... it will then go to near the top of the spec.
 Reputable dealers, set up a unloaded boat to max rpms, which then brings the WoT down.. in theory to midway... which puts the engine at the manufactures peak hp.. In theory it assumes the gross weight fully loaded guys family , fuel gear , tanks will drop to mid point or lower, but not below the min.
 And this makes sure that the engine meets warrantee requirments..
 We take a different approach, proping for what the boat is going to be carrying for THAT persons use at best economy.

 Hope that explains the dealer .. "prop to max rpms"   and our " prop fully loaded boat to mid or slightly below. And maybe Tagits note also.

 So  approx how much extra weight do you carry under normal conditions?
And is most of the boat use in fresh or sea water? Do you want to prop for sea or lake?




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Normal use is open sea. Often 4 pob, occasionally dive gear as well. At times it can be up to 8 pob and picnic gear.
Im going to just run it as is, observe under different loading and conditions, befor i go rushing off for any new props.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Normal use is open sea. Often 4 pob, occasionally dive gear as well. At times it can be up to 8 pob and picnic gear.
Im going to just run it as is, observe under different loading and conditions, befor i go rushing off for any new props.

 Essential to get good accurate data of actual normal conditions..
 Props are expensive.
 
Thu in saying that, by keeping an eye on trade me you will often pick up  $500/ $950 props for $100/ 150.
3 of my props for my old 115 where all below $150, one was (is) a 4 blade, stainless stiletto 2...
 And last week , another person from these forums, also a diver doing same thing with me privately , having to increase the transom height, and we took a guess at what most properly would need, 1 came up on trade me for $100 .. decide to take the risk at that price..and couple others stared bidding.. hit the buy now.

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Thanks for your input guys.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Raging Bull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 2:55pm
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237 Billfisher, done 800 hours, all I have had to do is replace the 02 sensor twice.

Cruising 4200rpm @ 23kts with a lite load around 1.1-1.3 litre per nm, with 400l of fuel and 3 pob and associated mountains of tackle etc around 1.2-.1.5 litres per nm


Trolling 2200rpm @ 7kts 1 litre per nm

WOT = about 5600, didn’t dare to look at the fuel meter.

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youll need a minimum of 70l/h to generate 225hp - prolly more realistically closer to 75l/h
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Rotorua Lakes Area Report - May 20th, 2022

Shoreline Action Kicks Off Early Surprisingly, there was a very early autumn start to the... Read More >

Bream Bay Fishing Report - May 20th, 2022

Gurnard On The Bite Early Anglers snapper fishing off the big sand dune at Mangawhai... Read More >

Tauranga Fishing Report - 20th May, 2022

Motiti Snapper on the Chew The snapper fishing has been simply great, with fish up... Read More >

Manukau & West Coast Fishing Report - May 20th, 2022

Harbour fishing outstanding                                     The snapper fishing in the harbour has been outstanding, but more for... Read More >

Fishing bite times Fishing bite times

Major Bites

Minor Bites

Major Bites

Minor Bites