The Tongariro Roll Cast

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jet_ski_fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 10:12pm
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Well i am happy to use it as i use to wade a lot and i got closer to the edges and drop off's and so forth . mind you i did go high spot's and see where the most fish swam and hunted where i could get to good spot's. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote skunk'd_again Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2012 at 6:12pm
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I've never tried learning this cast, and had a look for it on youtube. I came across a couple of videos and they both had loads of comment dissing the cast, actually most of them were criticising it. I know youtube tends to have a lot of people who think they know best commenting on it but the fact that pretty much no one had a nice thing to say about it got me thinking. Is there a reason why this cast seems to only be popular in New Zealand? Is it specifically for rivers like the Tongariro? Is there no better cast for throwing heavy weighted nymphs around?
 
This was the video I was talking about if anyone was interested.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2012 at 10:19pm
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Its been a while since I looked at this thread.    Actually i got sick of all the bull sheit.    I personally have not seen the videos with  negative comments but can confidently tell you that the only people who diss this cast are the ones who cant do it.    There are also some who think they know all about it but then give themselves away by not even understanding some fundamental elements of Spey casting.    
I dont know if you realise that this cast was developed in NZ and more particularly on the Tongariro by a guy called Brandon (as far as I could track its origin to date)   I first saw it performed by somebody called Lee who worked for a Taupo fishing tackle shop.    I was quite gobsmacked and decided that before I hang up my boots I had to master it.    It is now my go to cast for the Tongariro despite the fact that I used to be one of the big line slingers (overhead casters) on that river.    It is also very useful for summer type upstream nymphing and even dry fly fishing if there is no  room for a back cast.    The cast is primarily for upstream nymphing regardless if you use weighted flies or not although one can throw a line in any direction.    For upstream nymphing it is superior to all the other Spey casts because the setup allows you to lay out the line exactly in line with the target and do so in plenty of time.    The forward cast goes precisely over that anchor line to the target.    As far as the TRC goes there is no better cast for weighted nymphs and I say this since i have have studied them all.    People would kill for it its that good. 
 
The video you showed is of Andrew Blake whom I showed on several occasions how to improve his TRC     He put in the time to practice and now is very good with this technique.   
 
It is not an easy cast to learn but neither is good overhead casting.   Like with every other sport the people who put in the time and commitment will get the results.    The best way to learn it is from a good instructor.......if you can find one.
 
I would be interested to get a link to the videos you mentioned.
 
Rainbow
 
 
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Rainbow do the length of the leader and tippet matter or can it be any length and still able to do the trc?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 12:02am
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The TRC will handle leader lenghts and weight much better than the overhead cast.   As a general rule a 1.5x rod lenght is sufficient for the deepest pools in the Tonga.   I would rather go up in weight than go longer in the leader.   However, I now have a different leader system that allows me to shift my indicator about 1.5m up or down.    I can quickly adjust for different depths as I a fish through a pool.    Shorter at the tail and longer near the head.   
 
A few years ago i was fishing in the stag pool when I noticed that a guy had been watching me for some time.    He eventually came up and introduced himself as the owner of a salt water fishing lodge near Darwin.    I immediately saw that he had a big salt water fly rod and on the leader he had a humangus dumbell bomb.   He pulled out another one and with a grin said:   I bet you can't cast that one.    At that time i was using a #7 CD IM7 rod I had made up from a blank.    Not a particularly poweful rod but despite that it launched the bomb nearly across the river.   The guy was so impressed I invited me to the NT for a fishing holiday.    When we do the casting seminar at the Trout Centre I always pull out a 2.5 gram split shot the one with the wings and whack that out with the #6 noodle rod as anyone who has attended the clinic will tell you.    It gets their attention quicker than anything i can say.
 
Rainbow
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 11:30am
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On this thread is a comment by someone that he could outcast people with the Belgian Cast.    For those who dont know its history this cast was developed by an Austrian, Hans Gebetsroither on the River Traun.   It was made prominent by a Belgian fly caster who took part in intenational casting tournaments.    It is an oval cast where the back cast goes under the rod and the forward cast goes over the top.    In German this cast is described as: "Unten durch und oben drueber"     It is a fishing cast only because the line is always moving on a slightly rounded, elliptical track and thus encounters more air resistance, which slows line speed.    No modern distance caster would dream of using this cast in a casting tournament. 
Rainbow
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 9:18pm
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I have meant to post this for quite a while but always got distracted by something else.    This is an important addition to the TRC.    It is all about how to handle a tail wind blowing over your casting shoulder.
 
This wind is a pain for all fly fishers and is particlulary dangerous for overhead weight casters.   People have coped with it by back hand casting and casting off the lee shoulder.    When doing a normal TRC this wind is likely to blow the D-Loop into one's body and so ruins the cast that would otherwise have sailed out a long way.   
 
I few years ago I worked out that this collision can be avoided with a good reach to the left across one's chest.   This reach allows the D-Loop to completely clear the body.    This reach does not affect the accuracy nor the distance of the cast.  
 
This is just one advantage of the TRC and reminds me of a day on the now defunct Admiral's Pool.   After a brisk walk in waders my mate and I arrived somewhat sweaty only to find the pool occupied by four guys.    We lined up at the bottom expecting to work our way up but alas these guys had other ideas and told us they were not moving.    After about half an hour of fishing dead water i felt a slight breeze on the back of my neck.   Quickly the breeze turned into a decent wind and within minutesi heard the first whack as a bomb struck one of the guy's parka.    It was followed by a few more solid body hits and cries of pain as one of them  nailed a globug through his cap and into his scull.    One by one they retired to their packs and all the while glaring at us while sucking on a cuppa from their Thermoses.   
 
George and I moved into the prime lie and with reached TRC casts milked it for all it was worth.    I could have sworn that despite the noise of the wind I could hear their teeth gnashing.   
 
We had a ball firing long wind assisted casts and getting rewarded with a good number of fresh run fish.     When I turned around our new "friends" had gone.   As they say what goes round comes round. 
 
Rainbow
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waitakidan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 8:09am
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Rainbow, I have never learnt the TRC, but I do use the Perry Poke, with both single and double handers. What advantages does the TRC have over the PP. From what I  have seen, the PP would probably be an easier cast.
Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 9:40pm
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For upstream nymping the TRC lays out the line in line with the target from the outset.   To get the line up with the PP most people use a snap T or a single spey lift.  This does not line up the anchor like the TRC does.    With the PP once the line is up then all of it gets dumped in front of the caster.    Then follows the normal delivery cast.     The PP is best suited as a down and across cast and so are most other Spey casts.   This is the traditonal way salmon and steelhead are fished for.    Nymphing for for these is relatively new and and not considered good sport in many quarters.   However allthese casts can be used for upstream nymphing as long as you can get the line up from the dangle with the minimum of fuss and do the delivery without too many white mice (or rats) frothing up the water.   
If done right the TRC is incredibly smooth and does not desturb the water as some people have claimed.    It is best done with a single handed rod.     I dont know how the PP would handle heavy bombs after all the line is dumped in a big heap.    I my experience if there is the slightest bit of slack in the TRC setup the delivery cast fails.    Everything has to be tight.
 
The reason the TRC is not ideal for a double hander is that with a long rod the horizontal line slip would be too far out (away from the body and away from the 180 degree separation.    To get this wide line bend into the D-Loop would make a lot of splash and noise.    I have seen guys doing the double spey with the Skagit heads literally plowing the water.    I cant  imagine doing the PP with the dry fly or when sight fishing.
 
I am going to Turangi for a weeks fishing and will try to film this cast using a #6 weight rod.
 
Rainbow
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fishwhisperer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 9:02am
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Cool, look forward to seeing the Vid Rainbow. Have been lucky to have watched it done by a few people who are very good at it but always better if you can break it down on video.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 10:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fishwhisperer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2012 at 8:32am
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Thanks for putting those up Rainbow. Much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2012 at 11:14am
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One of the problems of videoing fly casting is to find a background and light angle that contrasts sufficiently to show the moving line.    This contrast can be further enhanced with a brightly coloured line.    For the above casting footage I used a 8'6 #6weight rod.    Initially I used a #7 Airflo Ego 2 line but found that its 56' belly just did not have enough mass to cast the indicator and the 1.5 gram bomb at maximum distance to demonstrate the potential of this cast.     The only other bright line I brought along on this trip was the same Ego 2 but in #9 weight.    I was a bit doubtful that the little rod could handle this disparity of line Vs rod rating but after the first trial cast I was surprised how well this combination performed as you can see in the footage.    Some casts at the Dutchess Pool were close to 80', a distance even very good  overhead weight casters would be quite happy with. 
However, despite this example I believe that this rod would have performed better with a the same line but in #8 weight.    I fished with such a combination most of the week but with a line that was too dull to show up in the video.   
 
Rainbow
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2012 at 4:02pm
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Here are links to some clips we shot on the Tongariro last week
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 10:08am
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herb

Our friend Herb Spannagl is hosting another of his, now famous, 'Tongariro Roll Casting Clinics' at the Trout Centre on Saturday 25th August. Herb donates his time this day and all funds from this event help support the Trout Centre.
Space is limited and bookings are essential.










Please visit our website and join us on facebook : www.troutcentre.com >>.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Slab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2012 at 1:01pm
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Here's a couple of shots of Herb in action at the Red Hut Pool last month. Have committed to myself to learn the TRC this season. Thanks for the lesson Herb and also for the outstanding written info on casting.

Also, heres the direct link to it on youtube which might be easier to follow on full screen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdGppMOVv0&feature=youtube


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2012 at 8:06pm
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Thanks Slab for putting that on.     One thing needs pointing out though.    You will notice that I am casting from the bank when normally I would wade even in very shallow water.   The difference is that when wading I fold the line in the water somewhat behind me and to my right side.    This prevents a lot of line splash as the spare line lifts from the water.    When casting from dry land  the line slip has to layed out more forward and out and consequently splashes as it lifts.    The yellow line is the RIO Steelhead/Salmon line with a 64' head and the rod is the CD ICT #7. 
 
Rainbow 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote photog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2013 at 10:40am
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Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

On this thread is a comment by someone that he could outcast people with the Belgian Cast.    For those who dont know its history this cast was developed by an Austrian, Hans Gebetsroither on the River Traun.   It was made prominent by a Belgian fly caster who took part in intenational casting tournaments.    It is an oval cast where the back cast goes under the rod and the forward cast goes over the top.    In German this cast is described as: "Unten durch und oben drueber"     It is a fishing cast only because the line is always moving on a slightly rounded, elliptical track and thus encounters more air resistance, which slows line speed.    No modern distance caster would dream of using this cast in a casting tournament. 
Rainbow
 
 
But then again Rainbow a  tournament caster wouldn't have a Tongariro bomb on the end would they, and wouldn't use the TRC cast either would they. Not only that Rainbow, as all casts have a + - momentum it is line speed on the delivery cast that is important in this case,  nothing more clearly shown by the TRC as it starts of in the water.
If the angler wanted to maximise line speed the last thing he'd have on the line is a bomb, Any how the Belgian cast, the backcast is a horizontal, open loop, to take the heavy fly away from your head, also useful when the wind is on your casting shoulder. The forward cast is overhead and the loop tighter depending on the weight of fly. Loop control is paramount to get the best from this cast.  So your arguement about the Belgian cast doesn't really hold any sway. Any new cast in you arsenal is a benefit.
 
Surely this is about fishing specific casting, tournament casting is a totally dififferent beast. Don't knock it till you've tried it.
If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2013 at 1:32pm
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If you carefully watched a good overhead caster on the Tongariro casting weighted flies a long distance you will find that on the back cast the line tavels low and the bomb usually passes below the rod tip while on the delivery cast it goes over the tip; best if on a somewhat tilted plane.     This is in essence a sort of Belgian cast thanks to gravity.     With the Belgian the eliptical line flow is purposely produced by stroking the rod accordingly.    The line flows like that even with a weightless dry on the tippet.    It is a good fishing cast that keeps both line tracks seperated from oneanother.     For weighted flies it is a safer option for casters who can not produce high line speed.    
Concidentally I have written an article on casting weighted flies, which will be  in next month's issue of the NZ Fishing News.    Will send it to you as a PM and would be interested in you comments 
 
Rainbow
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pole Dancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2013 at 5:36pm
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We could try this new cast????


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