The Tongariro Roll Cast

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Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

...
I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies. Myself a couple of metres short, but I have never given it much of a go.
...
 
With a Tonga bomb setup? Impressive... Shocked
Impressive but true!! Most fly lines are only around 90feet, so we have already said joe average angler will cast 70-80', why is it beyond comprehension better casters can do 90'.  
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I can definitely believe that true experts will hit a full flyline with relative consistency. I only really started using the cast on my last trip, but the better casts wouldn't have been far shy of 70ft. 
'Badger on the other hand, he's basically a bum'
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It is always easier to talk or write about a full line cast than to do it........against the tape.    I happen to know all the above "eperts", some better than others.   I spent quite a bit of time with Andrew fine tuning his TRC casting.    What you all forget is that there is absolutely no benefit from roll casting or overhead casting a full line on the Tonga, unless you are wetlining with a shooting head at the bottom of the Lower Bridge Pool.     
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Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters. I can do a whole line using single spey with a normal floater and a double haul. And preferably some kind of platform. But I've never ever had the need for such a cast while fishing.
Also, how "fishable" would a cast like that be? You'd be casting to the far fank, with the fast current in the middle...
 
I don't think average Joe Angler can do 70'-80' consistently either (isn't it around 70 feet across the Hydro?). At least not the Joes that I have observed in the Tonga. Most seem to anchor the over head back cast in the water behind them prior to the forward cast. LOL
 
Also let's not forget that casting a 90' flyline is not the same as casting a distance of 90 feet...
 
What's this discussion really about again?? Stern Smile
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Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies.
Haha Im loving all this big cast talk on here.  I have fished with Jamie, Andrew and Mike on the Tongariro on many a day since the TRC came in and I have never seen any of them cast the full line.  In fact Mike couldnt even do the TRC when I last fished with him on Tongariro (albeit this was probably 2002) Wink
 
I once cast the full line in the hydro and that was only because I had a little tail wind which sent it sailing and to be fair you should only count it as a full line if the backing goes out the tip? My cast that day certainly didnt.
 
its a great cast though and pretty easy to do with a bit of practice.
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Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

It is always easier to talk or write about a full line cast than to do it........against the tape.    I happen to know all the above "eperts", some better than others.   I spent quite a bit of time with Andrew fine tuning his TRC casting.    What you all forget is that there is absolutely no benefit from roll casting or overhead casting a full line on the Tonga, unless you are wetlining with a shooting head at the bottom of the Lower Bridge Pool.     
Rainbow

 You best be bringing your pretty little setup up to Whangarei then.... I haven't cast a line in 3 years but I bet if we put you shouting my family and extended family dinner and a few drinks I will prove your stereo typical comments incorrect.... I can do a 5-6-7-8 weight with a standard weight forward line balanced to a decent rod a 70-80ft doing the TRC not an over weighted pile either if mind 5-6 weights being the easiest, not a 110 ft line mind you that I leave to herb in his carpet slippers. I can do 70-80 ft on a 7weight rod in 1 false cast double haul, and belgian... So can Photog... 2 false casts and away it goes for backing +. understanding the dynamics and mechanics of a cast and you will realise that what you have said is utter rubbish. If you have spent that much time with Andrew you will also know a bit about me and photog.  

 I also fail to understand your comment of no benefit to casting a full line on the tonga's. I can think of several spots straight away were its very useful. unless your one of these guys that knows they have waded deep enough when water runs in the top of there waders... infact very useful when the waters clear and fish spooky as well. 

 
No these people do you. and you are you... not a certain Safa that was up in the weekend perhaps. ? 
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Originally posted by Cheeko Cheeko wrote:

Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies.
Haha Im loving all this big cast talk on here.  I have fished with Jamie, Andrew and Mike on the Tongariro on many a day since the TRC came in and I have never seen any of them cast the full line.  In fact Mike couldnt even do the TRC when I last fished with him on Tongariro (albeit this was probably 2002) Wink
 
I once cast the full line in the hydro and that was only because I had a little tail wind which sent it sailing and to be fair you should only count it as a full line if the backing goes out the tip? My cast that day certainly didnt.
 
its a great cast though and pretty easy to do with a bit of practice.

 Funny that, perhaps you may want to check your dates on that. I new it well before Andrew. considering he was only fishing for the last 4 years of me being down there. How are you Carl? and by many ocasions I hope your not meaning the 2 times we fished in closeish proximity. 
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Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters. I can do a whole line using single spey with a normal floater and a double haul. And preferably some kind of platform. But I've never ever had the need for such a cast while fishing.
Also, how "fishable" would a cast like that be? You'd be casting to the far fank, with the fast current in the middle...
 
I don't think average Joe Angler can do 70'-80' consistently either (isn't it around 70 feet across the Hydro?). At least not the Joes that I have observed in the Tonga. Most seem to anchor the over head back cast in the water behind them prior to the forward cast. LOL
 
Also let's not forget that casting a 90' flyline is not the same as casting a distance of 90 feet...
 
What's this discussion really about again?? Stern Smile

 You dont cast straight across the river.... or do you LOL

 AS far as fishable goes... yes very. if you know how to mend. I.E. lift your rod dont shuffle the line.

 Your correct about the distance of the cast though... you have to add 18ft of leader in there.  
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[/QUOTE]

 Funny that, perhaps you may want to check your dates on that. I new it well before Andrew. considering he was only fishing for the last 4 years of me being down there. How are you Carl? and by many ocasions I hope your not meaning the 2 times we fished in closeish proximity. 
[/QUOTE]
 
hey Mike,  no the last time I fished with you was in 2002 on the river and you couldnt do it then LOL We were fishing the old birches where you had to roll over to the far bank - couldnt false cast due to the black berries.
 
Your right though as Andrew only started in 2004 - quick learner that man though.  And I have definitely never seen someone throw a full line doing it - but would like to witness it.  Its easy enough getting to 25 metres, but those last couple metres are a mission.
 
Im all good, not a lot of T fishing.  Was thinking about going to Turangi this weekend if they got some rain as the fishing sounds like it has been tough.  Am going to go chase some snappers on soft baits instead though up the thames coast.  You been out in the briny much lately or down at Turangi?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote hookerpuka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 8:11pm
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NAH New boy has slowed the fishing down this year... so not allot of fishing.

 Fresh water in all honesty can FOAD... over it after so many years TBH. 

 Yup birches I can sort of remember. Its come a very long way since then mate, that cast was in its young years back then with only 3 poeple really doing it at all... Try a 6 weight on the whakakakakakakapapapapapapa. full fly line then some... slightly lighter flies and a tail wind of coarse still cant do it stood high on a forward running river properly mind, just like at the birches way back then. :P something about my body seriousl does'nt agree with that position. maybe the fat guts
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"I also fail to understand your comment of no benefit to casting a full line on the tonga's. I can think of several spots straight away were its very useful. unless your one of these guys that knows they have waded deep enough when water runs in the top of there waders... infact very useful when the waters clear and fish spooky as well".
Hookapuka,   I purposly put in that comment without putting in the reason and you fell right into the quick sand.    Even if you could cast a full line for upstream nymphing there is no way you could mend it.   And you should know that mending is just as important as casting out there in the first place.   I have been fishing the Tonga since 1970 and have never seen a run or pool from the source to the Delta where you don't have to mend sooner or later, unless of course you just want to take your flies for a swim.    Making grandious claims like yours only shows your up your poor understanding of trout fishing.
 
Rainbow
 

 
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Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

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Hookapuka,   I purposly put in that comment without putting in the reason and you fell right into the quick sand.    Even if you could cast a full line for upstream nymphing there is no way you could mend it.   And you should know that mending is just as important as casting out there in the first place.   
Rainbow 
 I always get amused by those that can't, telling those that can that is can't be done. I can tell you there is a technique for mending a full line. I used to have a vid of me doing it my website when I had Anglers Retreat. I used to fish a full line in quite a few places on the Tonga, and yes you had to pick your water and yes I could mend and drift correctly, probably why I caught so many fish.
 
 Tip for the mend: difficult to achieve with a downstream wind best with an upstream wind, Cast put a slight wiggle in the line as it settles, hold the rod high, haul and snap the rod forward straight back up the line. As the river drifts the line back down stream the line thrown forward will fall in the right place. Don't pull the line across but rather straight back up is path and the line wil just peal up off the water.. Do it properly you will hardly disturb the fly. Give it a try, just takes a but of practice. I used to throw 2 quick loops back along the line.
 
I have seen Peter Hayes (Australian casting champ) cast a fly line over 25 metres without a rod, just with his hands. Mike saw his party trick to when Pete and I held some advance casting classes in Taupo a few years ago. 
 
The thing about being able to cast a long line is to know when and when not to use it, but it's great to have it in your arsenal. It matters not if you believe me or not but if you want to improve open your minds.
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Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters. I can do a whole line using single spey with a normal floater and a double haul. And preferably some kind of platform. But I've never ever had the need for such a cast while fishing.
Also, how "fishable" would a cast like that be? You'd be casting to the far fank, with the fast current in the middle...
 
I don't think average Joe Angler can do 70'-80' consistently either (isn't it around 70 feet across the Hydro?). At least not the Joes that I have observed in the Tonga. Most seem to anchor the over head back cast in the water behind them prior to the forward cast. LOL
 
Also let's not forget that casting a 90' flyline is not the same as casting a distance of 90 feet...
 
What's this discussion really about again?? Stern Smile

I can confirm this, on the last day out with me he was indeed getting the hang of it on occasion and was pushing the 70-80 ft bracket, also tonga bombs do not really effect this cast as much as you think as herb demonstrated to me when he taught me the cast on a local lake.

The technique of anchoring in the water on the back cast works suprisingly well providing its the bomb and leader that hit the water not the belly as the rod really loads up for a nice forward cast ugly but effective LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Chris Dore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 10:36pm
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so, have you guys got video of these casts? Im interested in your technique.
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Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters.


Haha certainly wasn't a routine cast for me either! But some of the better ones would have been in that range. Some of the worst ones would have been lucky to hit 40ft... Keep in mind this was with an 8wt set up. Certainly didn't mean it as an ego pump, more just saying that I can definitely believe that guys who were true experts in the discipline could manage far greater. Whether they'd have any need to cast that far is another story entirely.
'Badger on the other hand, he's basically a bum'
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Photog, I'm struggling to see a point in your posts, sorry. One of my mates is the current world champion distance caster with flyfishing gear, where he beat guys like Steve Rajeff. Another one of my mates is a European casting champion. Personally I have been responsible for sponsoring several national casting events in Scandinava, and I have also been part of R&D teams that have developed rods for casting. AND, I can do 23 meters, against the tape, without a rod. At least that's how far it went the one time I had a tape with me. I've done 142 feet, again against the tape, with a 6wt. And of course any good caster adds line on both back and forward casts. How do these facts add anything to this discussion?? Stern Smile 
 
And with respect, fishing in a river with 90ft casts, a SH rod and a WF line makes no sense at all. Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
Gobbog, I think you're talking about 70-80ft of LINE. That I can believe.
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Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Photog, I'm struggling to see a point in your posts, sorry. One of my mates is the current world champion distance caster with flyfishing gear, where he beat guys like Steve Rajeff. Another one of my mates is a European casting champion. Personally I have been responsible for sponsoring several national casting events in Scandinava, and I have also been part of R&D teams that have developed rods for casting. AND, I can do 23 meters, against the tape, without a rod. At least that's how far it went the one time I had a tape with me. I've done 142 feet, again against the tape, with a 6wt. And of course any good caster adds line on both back and forward casts. How do these facts add anything to this discussion?? Stern Smile 
 
And with respect, fishing in a river with 90ft casts, a SH rod and a WF line makes no sense at all. Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
Gobbog, I think you're talking about 70-80ft of LINE. That I can believe.
Well done!!!Clap as I said my point wasn't to blow arse but to get people to open their minds. I see it all the time on here where some people think because they cant do it it can't be done or because they don't do it theres no need to. I was just trying to get people to broaden their minds a little. And guess what I knew that someone would spout off and see it for some thing other than what it was meant
(with respect)Disapprove.
 
Surely the site is about passing on knowledge and helping others if they want it.
 
Just because you can't see the point in long cast for migratory trout on heavily fished river like the Tongaririo doesn't mean there isn't one. In my opinion there is. You wouldn't do it of course on a back country river fishing for river residents, thats a different ball game. Like I said I don't care if you don't believe, just don't get personal go and try it..
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Chris Dore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 6:22am
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Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
 
Now I didnt actually say that. Having played with rolls and speys with Paul and Hayesie however I would like to see this approach to single handed spey. You dont often see the TRC on the Mataura down here. These guys have above shared an interest in helping people improve and opening their minds, I would just like to hear their input and see the results. As an instructor, I generally recognise three effective ways of teaching. Audible, visual, and by feel.
 
Im a visual learner.
 
All in the interest of opening our minds Smile
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Sorry Chris the only vids of it that I know of are the ones Andrew did a few years back. the rest of us were to busy either fishing or guiding. and getting devorced  lol 

 This is a link to him playing around with it on the tonga vid to the right. somethings gone bung with his page
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Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

  I purposly put in that comment without putting in the reason and you fell right into the quick sand.    Even if you could cast a full line for upstream nymphing there is no way you could mend it. (hahahaha ****ing LOL)   And you should know that mending is just as important as casting out there in the first place.   I have been fishing the Tonga since 1970 and have never seen a run or pool from the source to the Delta where you don't have to mend sooner or later, unless of course you just want to take your flies for a swim.    Making grandious claims like yours only shows your up your poor understanding of trout fishing.
 
Rainbow
 

 

 Again rainbow, bring your rod up here and find out if your right or not... I will put my money were my mouth is on that as well.... just because you cant doesn't mean others cant. of coarse you may need to give me a day with a rod in hand to get my feet. seen plenty of others do it as well. Its about fly placement and reading the water and understanding your drift. you would think for someone having fished it since the 70's you would know better. 

 Poor understanding of trout fishing you say... LOL sorry but LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL dont you remember me casting bombs at your face on the oposite side of the river in boulder reach a few years back for your poor fishing ethics .... Oh hi Herb

 If you consider the Tongaririo the be all and end all then perhaps your definition of fly fishing is different to mine. Rangatiki blows it out the water... another river that requires long cast, tongariro is repetitive and boring although the numbers of fish can make it good fun at times, althought I fear those days are gone.
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