FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

The Tongariro Roll Cast

Page  <12345 8>
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 10:06pm
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878
Just returned from the Tongariro after a week's fishing.    Fish are in better condition but still crap compared with the long term average.    
 
The highlight of the trip was switching from a seven weight rod and a 65' head line to a 8'6" #6 Kilwell Innovation and a #8 weight Cortland 555 for the TRC.    Had both rod and line for years and hardly used them,    This combo is going to be my future Tonga outfit.    Light in the hand and slings 60-70' casts with rat snout loops no matter how heavy the bombs.    Had always suspected that a softer rod is better for roll casting and now I know it.    
 
Rainbow
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Cheeko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 4:16pm
Cheeko View Drop Down
Silver
Silver


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Had a couple days down there last week too.  Fishing not great but managed to hook a dozen or so fish each day - biggest about 4lbs. Some nice conditioned little freshies and heres hoping the fishery will continue to improve over summer.  The roll casting was a bit out of practice and had to make a couple of slight adjustments.  The 8 weight on the 6 weight Innovation would have loaded up nicely Herb Smile
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 5:31pm
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878
Hi Carl    Fish have definately improved but I doubt if I ever see fish like they were in 1998 again?  
For anybody that still believes that the slaby fish of the last few years are the result of the thermocline not turning over in 2005 consider this:   When I started fishing Taupo in 1970 there was no town of Turangi, only half the subdivisions around the lake and the farms in the catchment probably got only a fraction of the fertiliser they get now.    In other words the lake was a lot nutrient poorer than it is now.    In fact it is now so nutrient rich that the weed bed in Tokaanu Bay have thickend up so much that fishing from the old Tokaanu wharf is no longer possible because of the tones of nutirents pumped daily into the lake from the Turangi sewage plant.   
 
It is obvious that whatever happened has impacted on the smelt on which the rainbows almost totally rely once they are in the lake.    The impact of the recent decline on the Turangi (Taupo)economy has been severe.    One would hope that  this almost total reliance on "one" food source should be an incentive for the DOC fishery managers to investigate a complimentary food source i.e.  one that does not compete with smelt.    This would broaden the food chain and act as an insurace for lean smelt years.    
 
I am still learning about the TRC and have also made small changes to the setup.    I now believe that a shorter and softer rod squashes the V=Loop even more ( reduces the distance between rod tip and water)  and this helps with the rod loading for the forward cast because the top leg of the V-Loop is more in line with the tip path.   Just an opinion at the moment, though.   To an overhead caster such a mismatch of rod and line weight might sound crazy.   However, bear in mind that with the  roll cast not all the line weight in the D-Loop contributes to rod loading.   The benefit of a heavier line is its greater momentum once in motion and that pulls larger/heavier flies which form part of the anchor.
 
Might do another fishing trip in September to coinside with the Outdoor Mags writers dinner and to the Sika Show.
 
Rainbow
 
 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote bazza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 5:48pm
bazza View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Mostlyinthepoo
Status: Offline
Points: 15720
Like the rest of us Herb ... you will not be able to look in a mirror
& see the same image as you did in 1998 either. 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 7:41pm
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878
Funny you should say that Bazza, because we have taken pictures of fish and us fisherman for years and come up with one of our homelies:  "We are getting uglier evey year while the fish in the pictures always look the same".    Whilst we are still going down the fish now have gone down too.    Good thing is there is still hope for the fish but none at all for us old farts.
 
Rainbow
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote bazza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 8:43pm
bazza View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Mostlyinthepoo
Status: Offline
Points: 15720
Perhaps we should look to taking up spawning again mate, in the
hope that is the answer.
 
Nah on second thoughts the swim upriver would probably kill me
.... & if not the other almost certainly would!
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 4:19pm
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878

 

VARIABLE ANCHORS FOR THE TONGARIRO ROLL CAST

By Herb Spannagl

As we have seen in the previous chapter on the D-Loop an adequate “Anchor” is a prerequisite for the formation of the D-Loop.   Both are defining components of all Spey Casts.

 

With the TRC the “anchor” is that part of the line, indicator, leader and fly that is resting in or on the water while other line manipulations take place.   This is defined as a water born anchor as opposed to an air born anchor where the terminal end only very briefly touches the water.

 

It is important to understand that one function of the anchor is to prevent the lower leg of the D-Loop from blowing out.   Its second function is to assist with rod loading against the fully formed D-Loop.  Anchorage and the forward cast need to be in proper balance.    Too much anchorage and the line does not lift out cleanly.  Too little anchorage and the D-Loop does not hold and gets blown out.   Somewhere between the two extremes is the ideal anchorage for each TRC forward cast

 

 Because the TRC uses a water born anchor the resulting resistance or anchorage can vary a great deal and with it the quality of the delivery cast.  It may surprise you that fly “volume” has a greater bearing on anchorage than weight.   As a good example a near weightless globug offers more anchorage than a large Tungsten bead head nymph.   Why, because the larger volume globug creates more drag in the dense water column than the much slimmer weighted nymph.

 

As I have already said the “anchor” is every part of your terminal rig that is in contact with the water.   Of these components the most variable is the amount of fly line left on the water as part of the anchor package.    This short piece of the fly line is also that part of the anchorage that you can increase or lessen very quickly by simply shifting “Point P” (That point where the line emerges from the water) should you decide that this is needed in order to produce a successful cast.

 

Whilst the various movements of the TRC follow fairly standardised rules, the amount of anchorage has to be assessed and taken into account prior to every delivery cast.   Only when the correct anchor assessment has been made can the cast be fine tuned by the caster.  

 

The tools for this include:

·        Stroking the rod higher or lower to control the amount of line left on the water.  

·        Varying the force of the forward cast.  

 

Let me give you a couple of practical examples.   The first is with a globug at the end of the trace.    You already know that a globug produces considerable anchorage.   As you complete phase two of the roll cast to reposition the line for the new target you have become aware that you have not pulled the indicator close enough towards you.   As a result there is now more line lying on the water than you would like, which will increase the anchorage to more than you need for a normal cast.

This leaves you with two practical corrections.  

  • You can project the D-Loop more upwards to lift more line from the water.
  • You can stroke the cast higher while applying more force to the rod.  

 

In practice you will probably do a bit of each.

 

The next example is a light summer rig with only a very small weighted nymph and a tiny indicator.    This rig has very little anchorage and relies heavily on the amount of line left on the water to anchor sufficiently.    If you were to stroke the cast high and with force, as you needed to do in the above example, you anchor would pop out and the cast would fail. 

  • In this case the correct solution would be to leave more line on the water and stroke the rod low and with medium force.

 

Between the two examples is an infinite variety of situations, all of which require a specific anchorage assessment prior to each forward cast.    That is why only time on the water with different rig options will teach you how to make the correct anchor judgements so that you can fine tune each cast with confidence and speed.

 

 

RODS AND LINES FOR THE TONGARIRO ROLL CAST

Most rods are suitable for executing the TRC.    My personal preference is for rods with a slightly slower action, even though these are not my choice for overhead casting with weighted flies.   However, there is a much greater disparity in the suitability of lines for roll casting.    The best lines emulate the line profiles specifically designed for Spey casting with double-handed rods.   Such lines typically have an ultra long belly (up to 20m) and have the greatest line mass towards the reel end of the belly, like the Airflo Ego or the Rio Salmon/Steelhead.   I have found that over lining the rod by up to two line ratings works well.    The reason for this departure from the AFTMA recommendations is that only the upper part of the D-Loop (which is less than half of the line head) contributes most of the inertia against which to load the rod; unlike with overhead casting where all the aerialised line head plays this role.   

Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote gillies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 10:42pm
gillies View Drop Down
Bronze
Bronze


Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7
I have seen Herb demonstrate his roll cast on the Tongariro in the Red Hut Pool a few years ago. What a master! And despite a historical (literary) tiff, he was most willing to demo this amazing cast - which I could not master.
Best bet would be to find out when Herb is on his annual Tongariro excursion and ask him for a demo. You will never learn this cast by reading articles - believe me, I have tried that path.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2011 at 10:24am
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878

Hi Ron   I remeber the meeting well and am still chuckling about it.     I am finalising our annual roll casting clinic to raise money for the Turangi Trout Centre Society.    Will probably be in August to coincide with a fishing trip and hopefully with a good run of fish.     Details are usually posted on the Sporting Life website.

Hope life is treating you well
 
Cheers
 
Herb/Rainbow
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kingfisher1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2011 at 7:00pm
Kingfisher1 View Drop Down
Bronze
Bronze


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Well anglers I read again about Herb and his roll casting Expo's . to me he is saying buy a long belly fly line to achieve the Roll cast, also his expo's are not for beginners. 
The reason a beginner can't cast a long belly fly line at first. is they need to have at less 40 feet of fly line out of the rod. and he also says use a double taper fly Line . to me a double taper rolls on it's own, no need to learn that one. 
i remember a day in the upper Birch pool when herb was up there fishing , Jamie said John I get out on the Rock below them, but you will have to net them when they go past and i did. herb was there and that where he got started Roll casting after talking to Jamie.

Jamie Davies is the best roll caster in Turangi and all herb has done is perfected the spay cast into a single hand cast.what  are your thoughts ?

Going back to Jamie. he will roll cast any fly line even a shooting head. i have known Jamie since he was 12 years old and the reason he roll casts is he couldn't afford to by a pair of waders.

Jamie in the early day's roll cast right across the Hydro Pool and not get his feet wet , lets see herb do that with a shooting head.

I will say when Jamie roll casts there is no splash at all.and if you can double haul you to can learn to roll cast very easily .
Cheers anglers 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 5:55pm
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878
Kingfisher 1   I don't know who you are but my guess is you must be one of the bunch of Turangi meanies who just can't stand that anybody shares the skill of roll casting with other anglers without wanting to get paid for it.      
 
For your information the sad fact is that none of the above showed me anything since they wanted to keep the "Edge" for themselves.     I had to work it all out for myself after watching carefully the "experts" and studying the Spey casting principles.   
 
Reading through your septic post tells me you know F-all about any fly casting let alone Spey casting.   
 
Rainbow  
 
 
 
  
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 7:39pm
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878
I should have known.    John Baker, the biggest Aussie loud mouth and bull sheiter in Turnagi.    
 You were not even in Turangi when the roll cast was developed.    If I remember rightly you worked at Sutherland's Sports in New Plymouth who's owner told me that he had to put you out the back, because your bad customer manners.    Well nothing had changed in Turangi.
 
"Reading through your septic post tells me you know F-all about any fly casting let alone Spey casting".    I certainly was not far wrong there either.  
 
Rainbow
 
 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote photog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 8:01pm
photog View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Location: NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 402
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

 
Reading through your septic post tells me you know F-all about any fly casting let alone Spey casting.   
 
Your spot on there Rainbow. 
 
 
 
  
If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote photog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 8:08pm
photog View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Location: NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 402
I have never seen so much written about a technique that is as old as the hills and people trying to claim it as their own.
 
There are many good exponents of the single handed roll cast from Turangi and around the country. As there are the Belgian cast which is very good for casting weighted flys especially if you want to kick the fly sideways on landing to enable getin close to blackberry or banks etc.
 
Its like the golf swing, We all have our own mechanics of height, physicality etc, but we all do the same thing at the  time of delivery.
If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote hookerpuka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 9:40am
hookerpuka View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3434
Originally posted by Kingfisher1 Kingfisher1 wrote:

Well anglers I read again about Herb and his roll casting Expo's . to me he is saying buy a long belly fly line to achieve the Roll cast, also his expo's are not for beginners. 
The reason a beginner can't cast a long belly fly line at first. is they need to have at less 40 feet of fly line out of the rod. and he also says use a double taper fly Line . to me a double taper rolls on it's own, no need to learn that one. 
i remember a day in the upper Birch pool when herb was up there fishing , Jamie said John I get out on the Rock below them, but you will have to net them when they go past and i did. herb was there and that where he got started Roll casting after talking to Jamie.

Jamie Davies is the best roll caster in Turangi and all herb has done is perfected the spay cast into a single hand cast.what  are your thoughts ?

Going back to Jamie. he will roll cast any fly line even a shooting head. i have known Jamie since he was 12 years old and the reason he roll casts is he couldn't afford to by a pair of waders.

Jamie in the early day's roll cast right across the Hydro Pool and not get his feet wet , lets see herb do that with a shooting head.

I will say when Jamie roll casts there is no splash at all.and if you can double haul you to can learn to roll cast very easily .
Cheers anglers 

 Having fished allot with Jamie over the years, Yes Jamie has a nice fluid cast.... Jamie's roll cast has the same noise that anybodies TRC has that knows how to do it, its not a splash as such but it makes noise. There are many that can do a flyline with this cast. shooting head is actually easier to do it with.  Chris Brennan to name but one that still remains down there that has similar ability with it. 

 Double Haul has not allot to do with a single haul technique TRC other than maybe the single haul :D 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote photog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 10:43am
photog View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Location: NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 402
LOL
If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Chris Dore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 11:11am
Chris Dore View Drop Down
Gold
Gold
Avatar

Joined: 16 May 2007
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 667

what distances are we talking here?

Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 12:19pm
Rainbow View Drop Down
Topic Moderator
Topic Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2878
Chris 70-80' is more realistic.    I have yet to see anyone cast a full flyline with the TRC, especially with a standard WF line.    As you know a long overhead cast with a WF line requires a long back cast.    It is the same with the TRC, which for a long cast also needs a very deep and dynamic V-loop.    On this planet gravity never sleeps and there is only so much line that can be aerialised in a V Loop with a 9'rod.    
Contrary to the above claims the TRC is not very suitable for casting sinking shooting heads.   It does not even cast sink tips well.     The reason for both is that because the TRC uses a waterborne anchor too much line has time to sink during the set-up phase and this furnishes such a big anchorage that the line left in the D-Loop is struggling  to lift it out and cast it a good distance.     The proof of that is in the massive floating Skagit heads that are needed to roll cast the heavy sink tips.   
 
Rainbow
 
 
 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote photog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 2:12pm
photog View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Location: NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 402
Rainbow I didnt see mentioned sinking heads, just heads. I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies. Myself a couple of metres short, but I have never given it much of a go. Your right tho the average fisheman will do about 70 to 80 feet. Kiwi anglers in general are pretty good casters compared say to the average North American angler.
 
As far needing a big back cast for cast a big distance,  I guess it depends what you mean by a big distance. The other aspect of this is part of the loading for the spey comes from the line being on the water initially helping with preloading the rod therfor need less line in the air to achieve the same objective..
If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 3:59pm
Tore View Drop Down
Silver
Silver
Avatar

Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 477
Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

...
I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies. Myself a couple of metres short, but I have never given it much of a go.
...
 
With a Tonga bomb setup? Impressive... Shocked
Back to Top
Page  <12345 8>
Forum Jump
Forum Permissions View Drop Down


This page was generated in 0.102 seconds.