The old fuel debate

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The old fuel debate
    Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 12:21pm
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Righto guys,
Now I know better but will explain the situation and then appreciate others feedback.

Cyclone Gabrielle did a wee bit of damage to my folks driveway and last month made the decision since insurance resolution / EQC is a good 18months away to attempt to get the boat down the drive.

Successfully managed to not write off my ute and no damage was sustained to the boat.

There's 100l of fuel which 70l was 100 octane from Nov last year from when I last used it, and then the old boy had topped up 30l after his last use with 95 octane fuel.

Ive tugged the boat from Whangarei back to Hamilton. Batteries have been on trickle charge.
I'm struggling to work out what to do with the fuel in the boat. I did start it the other night and let it run in the driveway for 30minutes. Seemed fine.
Seriously considering burning all 100l then servicing the outboard completely.

There is two sets of fuel filters and a water fuel separator before the mighty 100 horses take a guzzle.

What would you do? Have a lifetime supply of lawnmower fuel or just run it through?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mc Tool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 2:34pm
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2 or 4 stroke 
 NPD reckon the 100+ will last a year if stored in a sealed container  .... so not a boat tank with a vent BUT  they are probly arse covering a bit . Personally  I would be happy to stick it in the (older  low- compression )car  , a bit reluctant to put it in the  boat  mostly coz ya cant walk home if it takes a dump. I would NOT put it in a 2 stroke.....not even the chainsaw 
I wish I was young again .... Id be heaps smarter than this time
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 3:08pm
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4 Stroke DF100B

Forgot to mention due for it's service on time (obviously) and in 3hrs use.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mc Tool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 3:34pm
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What do you do to service a 2 stroke ?  change leg oil , bit of grease in the nipples , drain float bowls  and water filter , check the plugs , bit of CRC about the place  and make sure nothing is falling off .
 I only ever took a motor to the shop twice , 1st time it came back with a big sticking point a bit off straight ahead in the steering pivot ( apparently a bush just "fell" out of place ) 2nd time they cut the o ring on the oil filter housing  and it pissed oil out ..........now that was #*cking lucky coz I ran it on earmuffs before going out to sea  and saw the oil on the drive way . Now I measured the drip rate and did a bit of rifmatik  .......it would have taken 40 mins to empty the sump and in all probability I would not have noticed untill it chundered ( no low oil warning ).....so I fix my own stuff , Oh , and it came back without the seal on the motor cover ..... beats the poo logs outa me ... the cover was rattling loose so how they didnt notice it  themselves
I wish I was young again .... Id be heaps smarter than this time
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 5:14pm
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4 stroke ,100octane with a mix of 95? be tempted to use my self

100 oct from NPD? biofuel

Had it been 2 stroke,as you say lifetime of mower fuel.

What did Suzuki say? maybe a good starting place.

Why are using 100 oct as its a bio and most modern 4 s using 91 oct
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 6:07pm
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I think from memory their 95 option didn't pump and their 100 octane was cheaper than others 95 and the Hamilton NPD is extremely boat friendly compared to the other options along te rapa.

Also just wanted to see if it made any difference which it did not.

Owners manual states 91 minimum I think
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 6:17pm
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Originally posted by JustAnotherSpearo JustAnotherSpearo wrote:

I think from memory their 95 option didn't pump and their 100 octane was cheaper than others 95 and the Hamilton NPD is extremely boat friendly compared to the other options along te rapa.

Also just wanted to see if it made any difference which it did not.

Owners manual states 91 minimum I think
I know the Npd in Te rapa,handy. I use the one in Wiri Manukau for my 95 just around the crn from work  95 $2.93 my local Z $ 3.21
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kandrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 7:28pm
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Older petrol in a 4S shouldn’t be a big problem it will only be how much the octane has drifted and actually is now. But it started at 100 so should still be ok.

The problem with old petrol in 2S outbourds is not only to do with octane drift but also as petrol gets old it loses its ability to suspend the oil in the fuel and the oil will not lubricate the pistons properly and the motor can nip up.

I’ve pulled plenty of motors down that have had a little knock in them to find one of the pistons had nipped up with no lubrication.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote krow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 7:54pm
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I'd use it I've done worse. 
If you are worried about the octane use 1/2 and refill with 100 again. Caution though. Where did you buy the fuel? I believe the mix from Gull has methanol in it and that absorbs water over time. Also I've been told outboards don't like water suspended in the fuel. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 8:16pm
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JAS, i haven't read though all the replies.  Two stroke engines aren't as fussy about octane ratings as 4 stroke engines.Four stroke engines have a higher compression ratio and need to rev higher than 2's to make the same horsepower.  Contrary to popular opinion that is a cast in stone fact.

Octane booster will help but one thing is for sure, if toy hear the engine 'pinging' that isn't a good thing. Turn around and head back.

My mate stored his boat at my place for three years, apart from using some epoxy to reattach the transducer that the sheep busted off it was all good to go. It was a Mariner 140 and had a full tank. We went waaaaay off the west coast on that boat with no problems.

Four strokes aren't as relaxed. Personally though I'd use an octane booster or syphon half the gas out and top up with 95. Outboard engines are in a pretty low state of tune compared to a car.

Any sign of misfiring or pinking then I'd head back in and change the lot
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 8:52pm
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Appreciate the replies. Think I'll just send and hope I don't require use of the cost guard membership.

Considering maybe taking the partner to Taupo for a weekend getaway with the boat in tow for something different. Will see, won't be this weekend. Kawekas are calling for a walk
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote BotStomper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2023 at 12:50pm
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My only concern would be condensation in the tank. But you have a separator for that.

The 'zuks are tuned for 91 octane, you're throwing money away putting the better stuff in.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mc Tool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2023 at 3:01pm
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The thing with the 100 plus stuff is that it keeps way better   so while it might cost more  your not faced with feeding it thru the mower . NPD 100 plus does not contain alcohol. 
It takes me 4 fishing  days out to burn 25l of fuel  and I got sick of tipping it in the car if it ( 91 ) had been sitting for a while  so for 30c more a litre I mostly get 100+.If you use enough to keep the fuel flowing , so to speak then 91 is the best value. I have had personal experience with running to lower octane in a 2 stroke outboard, melts pistons instantly .....didnt even get out of the hole  ( 70 hp johnnie,   bit of a storey if ya want it )
 Compression ratios in 2 strokes are a bit difficult   as while they may have a low static comp ratio  the effective ratio goes up a lot when at  peak torque   as with the 2/ the incoming charge is precompressed in the crankcase and is blown thru the transfer ports into the combustion chamber , where as the (na ) 4/ has to suck the incoming charge in.
2/ motors dont like low octane ....like stale fuel and will munch a piston pretty much instantly the load come on , usually melting the edge of the piston adjacent to the ex port  , sometimes just the top ring land  but I have seen rings totally unsupported  as the whole side of the piston has gone .
 Tongue Smudge , I can save you a post ..... the piston was still oily everywhere except where it had actually meltedSmile.
While most modern cars will take 91  my  Toyota recommends 95  and the difference in power is very noticeable if I use 91 . I think   the knock sensors cut in and dial back timing and fuelling more than the actual fuel makes the difference . I did try a tank of 100+ but the only difference  I could see was that it used more of it.
 I have a Capri ( 3.9 rover  efi ) which due to a miscalculation on my part when dialling in the comp ratio  clatters badly on 91  better on 96 but still had to take 4deg out of the timing and it only rattled when the boot was down . So av gas or racing fuel was the go  which was a pita coz you couldnt pump it straight into the car  , so when BP ultra 100 showed up at the Cromwell garage .....nirvana,Big smile  then 100+  got local . Whole different car . 
I wish I was young again .... Id be heaps smarter than this time
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2023 at 5:58pm
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Originally posted by Mc Tool Mc Tool wrote:

The thing with the 100 plus stuff is that it keeps way better   so while it might cost more  your not faced with feeding it thru the mower . NPD 100 plus does not contain alcohol. 
It takes me 4 fishing  days out to burn 25l of fuel  and I got sick of tipping it in the car if it ( 91 ) had been sitting for a while  so for 30c more a litre I mostly get 100+.If you use enough to keep the fuel flowing , so to speak then 91 is the best value. I have had personal experience with running to lower octane in a 2 stroke outboard, melts pistons instantly .....didnt even get out of the hole  ( 70 hp johnnie,   bit of a storey if ya want it )
 Compression ratios in 2 strokes are a bit difficult   as while they may have a low static comp ratio  the effective ratio goes up a lot when at  peak torque   as with the 2/ the incoming charge is precompressed in the crankcase and is blown thru the transfer ports into the combustion chamber , where as the (na ) 4/ has to suck the incoming charge in.
2/ motors dont like low octane ....like stale fuel and will munch a piston pretty much instantly the load come on , usually melting the edge of the piston adjacent to the ex port  , sometimes just the top ring land  but I have seen rings totally unsupported  as the whole side of the piston has gone .
 Tongue Smudge , I can save you a post ..... the piston was still oily everywhere except where it had actually meltedSmile.
While most modern cars will take 91  my  Toyota recommends 95  and the difference in power is very noticeable if I use 91 . I think   the knock sensors cut in and dial back timing and fuelling more than the actual fuel makes the difference . I did try a tank of 100+ but the only difference  I could see was that it used more of it.
 I have a Capri ( 3.9 rover  efi ) which due to a miscalculation on my part when dialling in the comp ratio  clatters badly on 91  better on 96 but still had to take 4deg out of the timing and it only rattled when the boot was down . So av gas or racing fuel was the go  which was a pita coz you couldnt pump it straight into the car  , so when BP ultra 100 showed up at the Cromwell garage .....nirvana,Big smile  then 100+  got local . Whole different car . 

Makes sense Mac
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2023 at 6:57pm
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Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Originally posted by Mc Tool Mc Tool wrote:

The thing with the 100 plus stuff is that it keeps way better   so while it might cost more  your not faced with feeding it thru the mower . NPD 100 plus does not contain alcohol. 
It takes me 4 fishing  days out to burn 25l of fuel  and I got sick of tipping it in the car if it ( 91 ) had been sitting for a while  so for 30c more a litre I mostly get 100+.If you use enough to keep the fuel flowing , so to speak then 91 is the best value. I have had personal experience with running to lower octane in a 2 stroke outboard, melts pistons instantly .....didnt even get out of the hole  ( 70 hp johnnie,   bit of a storey if ya want it )
 Compression ratios in 2 strokes are a bit difficult   as while they may have a low static comp ratio  the effective ratio goes up a lot when at  peak torque   as with the 2/ the incoming charge is precompressed in the crankcase and is blown thru the transfer ports into the combustion chamber , where as the (na ) 4/ has to suck the incoming charge in.
2/ motors dont like low octane ....like stale fuel and will munch a piston pretty much instantly the load come on , usually melting the edge of the piston adjacent to the ex port  , sometimes just the top ring land  but I have seen rings totally unsupported  as the whole side of the piston has gone .
 Tongue Smudge , I can save you a post ..... the piston was still oily everywhere except where it had actually meltedSmile.
While most modern cars will take 91  my  Toyota recommends 95  and the difference in power is very noticeable if I use 91 . I think   the knock sensors cut in and dial back timing and fuelling more than the actual fuel makes the difference . I did try a tank of 100+ but the only difference  I could see was that it used more of it.
 I have a Capri ( 3.9 rover  efi ) which due to a miscalculation on my part when dialling in the comp ratio  clatters badly on 91  better on 96 but still had to take 4deg out of the timing and it only rattled when the boot was down . So av gas or racing fuel was the go  which was a pita coz you couldnt pump it straight into the car  , so when BP ultra 100 showed up at the Cromwell garage .....nirvana,Big smile  then 100+  got local . Whole different car . 

Makes sense Mac
Mctool would be good competition for "Steps" LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mc Tool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2023 at 8:47pm
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Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:


Mctool would be good competition for "Steps" LOL

what are you sayin  bro LOL that I blither to much or that  I made some sense LOL
I wish I was young again .... Id be heaps smarter than this time
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mc Tool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2023 at 11:10am
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Well with all the discussion I decided to tip the boat fuel into the car ( 3 months old 91 ) and I had an epiphany ( think that's what it's called ) ,dreading the prospect of standin on one leg trying to juggle the fuel container and funnel I thinks , after way to many years "mmmmm I wonder if the snorkel of my mower fuel container would fit the boat tank" thusly avoiding afore mentioned juggle .....and
it 🤬 did 🤯 😁
I wish I was young again .... Id be heaps smarter than this time
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kandrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2023 at 4:47pm
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Originally posted by Mc Tool Mc Tool wrote:

Well with all the discussion I decided to tip the boat fuel into the car ( 3 months old 91 ) and I had an epiphany ( think that's what it's called ) ,dreading the prospect of standin on one leg trying to juggle the fuel container and funnel I thinks , after way to many years "mmmmm I wonder if the snorkel of my mower fuel container would fit the boat tank" thusly avoiding afore mentioned juggle .....and
it 🤬 did 🤯 😁
Yep that’s one thing I would like to find is a good siphon setup, I’ve made one up with a primer bulb that works ok but very slow because the hose is too small.

I’ve tried the jiggle ones but I find them a bit of a pain in the ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mc Tool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2023 at 5:24pm
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I think one of those battery drill powered pumps would be the go .....40 bucks get you one that pumps petrol
I wish I was young again .... Id be heaps smarter than this time
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Kandrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2023 at 5:29pm
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Originally posted by Mc Tool Mc Tool wrote:

I think one of those battery drill powered pumps would be the go .....40 bucks get you one that pumps petrol
I just need to go fishing more and use the petrol haha
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