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single or double hook rigs?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kerren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 8:30am
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let me know if this makes sense Fishb8.....if you want an in depth look at how this system works it is fully explained on the Bluewater Fishing (NZ) video.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote obald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 8:34am
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Why do you have to fish the port rod left handed?

obald

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kerren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 8:40am
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hahahhahaa.....and the prize for spoting the deliberate mistake goes to OBALD the fishing nerd!!

4mins after I posted the image as well........you need a hobby!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KingfishSi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 8:42am
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Sheesh, Obald you have the eyes of a hawk
Keep knockin', nobody's home.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote johnangus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 9:53am
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Given that the target species here is striped marlin the need for huge lures and double hooks is unnecessary. The PRIMETIME system is one they have settled on after some slightly different techniques were toyed with in the early days but single hooks have always been the order of the day. John Gregory may have experimented with doubles for broadbill but that is a different story. I will check my records to discover the success rate (tagged versus lost) using "cocked stiff singles" and report back. Having tagged around 50% of the marlin recorded by PRIMETIME last season and all on lures it should be meaningful. There are however a couple of things that I do which is not standard PRIMETIME procedure. Whenever possible I keep the drag on a much lower setting throughout the fight to keep the fish on top and settled and I use the fingers on my left hand on the spool a lot. However if you ever fish on a charter boat it is always best to do what the deckhands advise, they really do know best and they want the fish at least as much as you do.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dustin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 9:56am
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Hi John, what size hooks do PRIMETIME use?

cheers dustin

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kerren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 10:08am
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13/0 VMC (cone cut) game hooks.......but like John says Matty rigs all their hooks in a "cocked" fashion...looks wrong works very well indeed!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote obald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 10:32am
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VMC's 13/0 is probably Mustad's 12/0. I referred to the 'cocked back' taping in my earlier post - it really does make sense. If I had Kerren's graphics wizadry I'd try and draw it on the screen - but I havn't so I won't.

obald

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote johnangus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 11:24am
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Ok in 54 days fishing on PRIMETIME I reckon we raised approximately 140 marlin to lures, got strikes from 125, hooked 94 (truly hooked probably nearer 80) and caught 57. Of the lost fish most were off very quickly or jumped off in the first 2 minutes. Only a few were lost near the boat after a protracted struggle due to pulled hooks, a few were wrapped and one got eaten by a great white shark. (We also got 6-7 big makos on lures.) I would say the majority of the caught marlin were hooked from the outside of the jaw, exactly what is supposed to happen. On occasion a smaller hook was used, Matt's " VMC snapper hook", went 7 out of 8 over 2 days, I seem to remember in one particular lure. I don't know how these figures compare to PRIMETIME overall numbers. When hooked in the outside of the jaw the leader quite often runs back through the marlins mouth which gives you great control when the fish is going away from you or when the hook is on the oppsite side of the mouth to the one facing the boat. The only thing is the hook can be difficult to remove and I remember there being quite a few crushed fingers and lots of swearing, but then they weren't my fingers. Ha, ha,

 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kerren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 11:31am
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thanks for those stats John....interesting stuff!

57 from 80 is a bloody good conversion rate in anyone's language.....most are exceedingly happy with 50/50 when targetting stripes on lures!!

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote johnangus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 11:57am
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I can think of 2 reasons for a good conversion in the case of PRIMETIME, the introduction of the 12 foot tag pole made a big difference to converting loosely hooked or bill-wrapped fish and the gentler handing at the boatside, pinching the leader rather than big wraps and trying to roll the fish, increasing the risk of a pulled hook or the fish going ballistic and going under the boat, which never happened last season. Using a light drag and "collecting" the fish means it can be quite green if you don't get onto quickly after it's initial aerobatics. The actions of the crew at this stage are critical and these methods are really only for professionals or the truly experienced, I reckon the enthusiastic amateur is better to tire the fish right out before attempting to trying any unhooking heroics or planting the gaff. Something I would do on my own boat, for sure. Kiwi crews are world-reknowned for being fearless but they don't get paid enough to take unnecessary risks. Kerren I sincerely hope you get your chance with a broadbill but when you are harnessed in the chair and the back door opens and a 4 foot sword is waving right in your face the huge eye is still full of malevolent intent, don't forget the brown trousers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Peter Montague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 12:10pm
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Most of the guys here that get the results on the west coast of OZ run 9 or mainly 10/0's using 37kg S/u or under to chase our solid blues, stripeys and blacks.

One thing we do notice is when the stripeys and blacks are about (gen fish under 250#) those running 12/0s complain about missing stikes and pulling hooks (generally in the first few minutes) , for those that taped the shanks of thier 12/0's it showed most of the lost fish were because the hook has wrapped the bill.

Blues on lures, u shouldnt miss a hook up and if you do it has more to do with your pattern not being right. Blues tend to hit side on or hit and turn if coming from behind and if the pattern is set right they dont muck about!

Stripeys sails and whites on the other hand can occassionally be pricks to hook, especially in the smaller sizes when all they want to do is pick the lure up and run forward.






       
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote johnangus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 5:04pm
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Peter Montague, I loved what you say about blues on lures, but how do you keep 'em on after they're hooked? My mind's eye is full of NZ 250 kilo blues going ballistic and throwing the hook within the first few minutes, worth the entrance money for pure spectacle but do you have the answer that makes them stick? Last season, 2002, I remember losing 7 in a row before finally nailing a good one and this year only got one out of four bites in what was a very poor season for blues.  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Peter Montague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 6:14pm
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In the various boats I have been on in say the last five or so years here mainly chasing blues 400-600# with a few bigger girls, I can only think of three or 4 that escaped the tag

Three were due to the line being pinged, 2 angler error (guys new to the sport) the other would have required god at the helm as it went ballistic and the water pressure pinged the line. I cant remeber the last fish that i saw pull the hooks or strike and not get nailed with 10/0's

I run ultra light drags a smidge more than required to hold the lure and push them up once the fish has struck and turned.

Pattern wise I run the odd one out a "dominate" lure -
with a dominate lure pattern you dont get lookers you get a blinding flash out of nowhere and with a light drag it requires an angler thats on the ball to be on the drag before you see the arbor!

Just to prove a point a few years back in the Fishwest Lures Abrolhos comp I was onboard Christma, with a few guys that had been marlin fishing for a while that had heard about my style but werent overly sure.

I had the run of boat & helm before we left port I said that I would set it up so that every hit was on the short rigger.

Every marlin hit and the two fin nailed the 15" roto 660 until we lost it then I set it around a 14" roto Elnino all on the short rigger over the 5 day comp.

We took out a couple of prizes but got nailed at the post on overall as we pinged two of the blues one was the ballistic mother over 800# mentioned above - all the fish were on 14"+ lures running inline 10/0's

The boat that did beat us was and always has run 10/0's and from memory only missed one fish. The skipper is very knowledgable and well respected , spent a lot time in Cairns in the early days with plenty of tournament wins around the place

Yes our blues greyhound and go like they are possed by the devil and would leave an equivalant size black for dead and I would nt even compare to a stripey

I have just jumped up to a standup 130 outfit for this coming Abrolhos season as every year in the Abrolhos comp a couple of horses nudging 4 figures are lost and I will still run the 10/0's unless I jump up to running our something like one of my 21" BM660'S


You should give 10's ago and if your running under 24 try 2 x inline 10/0 2xstrong short shank o'shaunghessy's
they pull in and set very very easily - and I have never straightend one --- they are my preffered hook for small black sails and stripeys and all I use if iam in area thats only got small fish




       
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote johnangus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 10:08pm
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Peter Montague, I may have to pay you a visit.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Peter Montague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2003 at 11:44pm
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Give me a yell if you decided to head on over.

Otherwise I should be in NZ early 2004, several tackle stores have requested that I run a few gamefishing clinic next Iam over. So I will try and squeeze one in.

cheers



       
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dustin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2003 at 5:29am
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My own experiences when I finally got the chance to fish blue marlin on lures were quite the opposite from what I was expecting after reading all about these monstrous crash bites on lures from blues in Hawaii and Australia.  These big fat Madeiran mamas can seem almost lazy at times and often the first shot is just a tap and the fish gets hooked on the second or third shot.  The last fish I wired lightly pulled out the short rigger, switched over to the long rigger, knocked it down a couple of times before the skipper slowed the boat, I was preparing to put the lure in the rigger, saw the big dorsal waving about behind the lure, let the line go and must have dropped that super plunger down her throat.  Sure, we do get the huge crash bites that can terrify you (well they certainly terrify me) with their sheer violence, and the unseen bites ("big hole bent pole"), but from what I've seen, you had better also know how to react to knock-downs and missed bites, and when Mrs Blue is pushing behind your lure with about three and a half feet of bill wagging over your lure and a mouth the size of a bucket open behind it, because those happen too. 

I am perfectly willing to accept the patterns I'm fishing may not be perfect but I have had the fortune to compare notes with other boats and they too get their share of lazy bites.  Some say it could be cooler water temperatures or the fish are stuffed with feed and lazy, or simply that smaller fish tend to strike in a faster more aggressive way than these big ones.   I have heard similar from guys who have visited the Azores which is a similar sort of fishery. 

When it comes to hook sizes, I've come to believe after missing many on 11/0 and 10/0s that for these big fish, 12/0 are probably the right size.  Just look at the mouth of even a 600+ class blue, even a 12/0 hook looks small inside a maw like that.  Again, I fully accept 11/0 and 10/0 and smaller hooks may be perfect for smaller fish and some smaller lures need to be rigged with smaller hooks, but for the area I fished (and if I ever have the good fortune to visit Western Australia or New Zealand, some things will surely be different), I now think 12/0 is the go.  I have a suspicion a certain percentage of blues that come unstuck on that ballistic first run may be to do with too small hooks that haven't bitten well and maybe too heavy drags.  Apart from my feeling that fish are more likely to get hooked solidly if they can turn and run before the drag is put up, I really believe all you're doing if you put a lot of drag on a blue marlin on his first screaming run is increase the risk of breaking line and/or pulling the hook.  Is a big blue marlin honestly really going to slow down if you put 45 pounds of drag on him compared to 25 pounds, I really doubt it.  The time to increase drag is after he's expended that massive burst of energy, not during it. 

Well, after having nattered on, I guess I should say I'm certainly no Tiger Woods, so take all the above with a big pinch of salt.  Have a nice day,

cheers - dustin

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote johnangus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2003 at 9:12am
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Unless the fish feels the hook right away and starts window wiping on the spot in which case I would ease the drag up a bit, I always like to let the fish run. The water pressure against the lure head is quite enough anyway, when the lure moves up the leader and jams on the stop, this bump can be enough to draw in the hook. The weight of the line which increases more and more especially if the fish changes direction like blues do a lot helps to keep the hook in place. And Dustin you are absolutely right leave the drag alone until the fish has settled down, I don't push up the drag until the line has stopped going out and/or we are about to go after it. Nevertheless my success rate on blues here in NZ is average at best. Unlike many others though I have never been spooled and I have never snapped off on anything. I reckon if you can snap 37 kilo line on a fish there must be something wrong with it. I have seen a near 1000lb thresher shark hooked in the tip of it's tail, nearly 16 feet away from its gob, hauled up inch by inch for over 3 hours from over 800 metres, straight down, with the drag on the absolute maximum. The topshot was hi-vis Moimoi, and an hour earlier had brought in a 420lbs broadbill again after more than 3 hours. Sorry I have departed from the thread again, I'm going back to the Playstation, this new Jak II is great. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dustin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2003 at 10:07am
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John, I like you consider myself no more than average, in fact, as far as converting strikes to hookups is concerned, at times I definitely feel below average.  But one of the gentlemen who visits this site on a regular basis is one of the most successful lure fishermen for big marlin there has ever been, and I'm sure he's experienced the pulled hooks syndrome many times before, and if not figured it out, at least come to some conclusions how it happens and what are the main culprits. 

The only other thing I think is worth considering, and believe me I consider it an awful lot whenever I'm going through a bad spell, is this: Even, or should I say especially, in places where blue marlin are truly abundant- Hawaii, Ghana, places like that, boats still go through runs of poor hookups on lures.  They go through hot streaks, and they go through cold streaks.  The problem one faces in an area like Madeira, and I guess New Zealand, where blues are simply thinner on the ground, is was that run of four missed fish simply bad luck or is it a symptom of something you are not doing quite right, and if so, what?  The fact that you aren't getting 2 or 3 shots every day makes it difficult for you to change things.  Also, if you're in a situation where you are raising something like one blue marlin per week (or God help you even longer between bites - yes I've been there), you are simply going to lose your sharpness and preparation.  When the fishing is good and you are raising them consistently your game goes up, you get a handle on what the fish are doing and how to respond.  If you can't remember the last time you got a blue marlin bite and suddenly THERE SHE IS, your chances of muffing the bite are a lot higher due to simple lack of preparedness, unless you are really very experienced, and I'm sure even the best fishermen would admit that not seeing a fish for several days tends to put a kink in their style.  Human error is an awful way to lose a fish, but it happens. 

cheers - dustin

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kerren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2003 at 10:25am
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Yeah good call Dustin....

Where are you at Capt. Roddy?.... ....learn us the ways of dealing with the BIG blue bite...your students await their teacher!

(the above is not sarcasm at all)

No doubt you would have penned lessons on the subject already....can you direct us where to find them perhaps?


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