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Recreational Fishing Licences - have your say

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 9:13pm
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So it got bad in the 1980s. Muldoon was subsidising new fishing boats that did not go offshore but thrashed inshore stocks. the Quota System was introduced in 1986 to turn it around. The Quota Appeal Authority undid most of the catch reductions that were made.
Cabinet did not sign off Moyles promise.

Snapper and many other species were at a low point in many areas in the mid 1990s.  I can show rebuilds in kahawai, kingfish, snapper 1, snapper 8 (west coast), snapper 7 (top of the SI), and marlin has been kept recreational only since then.  There is now much more focus on protected species and the ecosystem but more work is needed. There are now seasonal closures to all commercial fishing in the inner Gulf and Bay of Islands. 

Commercial fishers are under more pressure than ever to prove to consumers that their methods are sustainable and the Harvest Strategy Standard signed off by the Minister moved the target for species like snapper from 20% unfished Biomass to 40% unfished Biomass.  The target for Kahawai is 63% unfished biomass.

International best practice in developed countries is moving toward greater recognition of non-commercial fishing.

Sure there is more to do.  But don't say nothing has changed in the last 10 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2017 at 6:40am
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qk you made some good points but i cannot see how the increase to 40% will happen until trawlers are outside the hen n chicks to outside mokes/barrier down to curvier,basically the 100m  mark as per legaseas call.
Reccs are doing there bit soft baiting ,bigger hooks recurves etc and may not be fishing as often as we use to(I am certainly not)twice in 3 months where 2 yrs ago out at every opportunity
Would I fish more if I payed a fee??most likely yes/no but with 700th anglers paying a fee to some board, we would surely out weigh any inshore export revenue?plus what we spend just to go fishing,I feel mpi would have to listen then and only then.
I appreciate the time/effort put in talks with mpi but are they under obligation to sit and talk to any lobby groups?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LegaSea Community Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2017 at 9:49am
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PJC, it is evident to all you care deeply about the fishery and are upset about the various issues getting in the way of change. I think John H is correct in pointing out the negative tone your statements and questions carry (often toward LegaSea) - you're entitled to your opinion but (as far as I can tell), LegaSea hasn't been antagonistic back and hasn't returned the frustration in kind. We've spent a lot of time patiently answering questions and trying to be part of the solution. You make some genuine clear arguments at various times however what concerns me is that for every person who appears on this forum to comment, a greater number of people watch and don't comment. I am concerned the perceived 'in fighting' will turn them off from actually participating in being part of the solution. That doesn't automatically mean joining LegaSea, even talking to their own MP etc would be a good idea. We already understand that there are too many fishers who are too complacent about the future of our fishery. Providing more obstacles to people from getting involved further delays any progress.  Hope you see where we are coming from.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fish Addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2017 at 7:11pm
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Originally posted by John H John H wrote:

]

The 2014/15 annual report from the WA Department of fisheries says.
The amount the Government spent on managing commercial fishing and aquaculture around the State was $76 million.

The amount the Government spent on managing recreational fishing around the State was $18 million. (corrected)

" 752,000 was number of West Australians estimated to have fished recreationally in the reporting period. Recreational fishing in Western Australia continues to have considerable social value as a popular WA lifestyle activity.

" 170,094 was the number of recreational fishing licences we issued for specific recreational fishing activities. All revenue raised from licence fees goes back into recreational fishing management."

It is not clear how much commercial fishers pay towards fisheries management.

It wasn't clear from your post above however I presume it was directed at me to make comment.

Clearly there is an imbalance between number of West Australians estimated to have fished recreationally during the reporting period and the number of recreational fishing licences issued for specific recreational fishing activities and I guess this was your point.  Based on the figures provided only 22.6% of the estimated total number of recreational fishers were licensed.  However this doesn't necessarily mean that 77.4% of the estimated recreational fishers failed to purchase a fishing licence as perhaps was your inference.  In WA persons under the age of 16, persons of aboriginal descent, all shore based anglers and persons fishing from an unpowered boat are all exempt from purchasing a fishing licence.  Whether the exempt group make up the total of the 77.4% to which I refer I don't know and I don't have any facts to support this one way or the other.

The other point you raised was how much commercial fishers contributed towards fisheries management?  Once again this had me searching for info and I was unable to locate any estimated values.  This search was useful however as it did provide me with some information with respect to how the commercial fishing in WA is structured, something which I had little knowledge of previously.  In short commercial fisheries are licensed by the Dept of Fisheries and annual lease / access fees apply and I would expect these fees to be proportionate to the size of quota.  Once again I do not have exact figures of the magnitude of the fees however from more general comments from others they don't come cheap.  The following is a cut and paste from the Fisheries website.

"Commercial fishing Licences

Operators in commercial fisheries and aquaculture in Western Australia must be licensed by the Department of Fisheries.

Licence fees ensure an appropriate return to the community for a degree of exclusive access to community resources (fish or water) for commercial purposes. Industry also benefits from our management and research to help ensure Western Australia’s fisheries remain sustainable and profitable.

All the funds raised from commercial licences are used only for the purposes set out in the Fisheries Research and Development Account (established under the Fish Resources Management Act 1994), which includes commercial fishing and aquaculture management, enforcement, community education, research and monitoring of fishing activity. The funds cannot be used for recreational fishing."

I also came across a paper titled "Improving Commercial Fishing Access Rights in WA" which I found rather interesting.  Two sections within the paper address 'Ownership of Fish' and 'Fishing Access Rights'.  Whilst I have no first-hand knowledge of how these are addressed in NZ I suspect a somewhat different approach has been adopted.  Link to document added below.

http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/Documents/occasional_publications/fop102.pdf

 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2017 at 9:12pm
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Originally posted by John H John H wrote:

]MB
LegaSea is not doing nothing.  See our Annual Report

The profile of recreational fishing in NZ has never been higher.
We supported a feature film on Recreational fishing on the Kiapara Harbour called THE CATCH on in cinemas now.  Last night there was an hour long ITM Fishing Show featuring LegaSea on prime time TV1 and a paid TV ad.

We have a Fish Care campaign starting soon and have been talking to politicians in the build up to election year. 

What you can do is sign up as a LegaSea Legend to make LegaSea more effective.

Or keep up to date with WHAT IS BEING DONE by subscribing for free


John so what has Legasea actually achieved for recreational fishes of NZ. All I seemed to read is a lot of Pr rhetoric.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2017 at 7:00am
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Thanks FA for your time

I guess I was just throwing the questions out there....

Had a look at the link and it seems WA limits fishing effort by licencing, particularly in Managed Fisheries. This is applies to an Owner/Operator based on a share of Total Allowable Fishing Effort, where the person with the rights runs the fishing business.

The report calls the NZ Quota management system a strong "Invester - Operator nexus"  based on a share of the Total Allowable Catch (TAC), where the ownership of the “assets” is administered discretely from the activity of fishing.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LegaSea Community Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2017 at 9:28am
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Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by John H John H wrote:

]MB
LegaSea is not doing nothing.  See our Annual Report

The profile of recreational fishing in NZ has never been higher.
We supported a feature film on Recreational fishing on the Kiapara Harbour called THE CATCH on in cinemas now.  Last night there was an hour long ITM Fishing Show featuring LegaSea on prime time TV1 and a paid TV ad.

We have a Fish Care campaign starting soon and have been talking to politicians in the build up to election year. 

What you can do is sign up as a LegaSea Legend to make LegaSea more effective.

Or keep up to date with WHAT IS BEING DONE by subscribing for free


John so what has Legasea actually achieved for recreational fishes of NZ. All I seemed to read is a lot of Pr rhetoric.

If I could help answer, John will probably also have his own comments.

A voice. Evident by the growing support from individuals and industry and submissions to govt.      
The What's Fishing Worth study was a landmark achievement. In other countries the same type of report brought about policy changes and developments that valued rec fishing. Establishing the economic value of rec fishing has never been accomplished before. We have always been trying to convince govt of the economic benefits of rec fishing without being able to give hard data. We have the facts now to back up the arguments. 
From my perspective, part of the reason I joined LegaSea was because I could see an advocacy group becoming more organised and recognised and I couldn't remember seeing that before through out the last 40yrs of my rec fishing history. There have been organised fights like Option 4, but the reach, longevity and community getting behind LegaSea is in a whole different league now.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2017 at 11:54am
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I think a lot of people suffer from impatience when it comes to achieving results for rec fishing. That is behind a lot of the calls for more direct action etc. As many people, including myself. have pointed out in various posts, our countries record to date in rec angling is the rec sector giving, giving, and giving, whilst what we so far count as achievements is anything where the 'giving' is reduced or not as big as the government and comm sector are trying to demand. They of course then use this 'concept' in their future demands. 
The perfect example seems to be the new MPA proposals where we have very large MPA's proposed and smaller ones also proposed as being the less intrusive options. In reality this is just game playing with the non-rec sectors trying to force these through as the compromises the rec sector must make before they will do anything about their own damage to the fisheries. By listing both large and small MPA options they are trying to position the 'small option' as what they will accept as a compromise when the rec sector agree to compromise on whatever they are trying to achieve. Accepting the 'small options' is in fact yet another 'give' by the rec sector, but it has been positioned so that it won't appear that way. It is in fact all about forcing the rec sector to agree to the other parties not making any substantial contributions, but at the same time positioning the rec sector to be seen as the bad guy.
This is the rubbish that I personally really hate, and is in fact my fear about been represented when it is obvious that the rec representatives are being politically circumcised by the way the  representative forums are being set up.
What this means to me is that the only real fix to our issues is a political one. Until we create enough political clout to make the government take notice, all the detail type stuff around MPA's and trawl areas etc are just battles that we must fight, but will never win. Best case at the moment is damage limitation until we get the political influencing sorted.
Can a ragtag bunch of rec groups become a political force, NO. Can a consolidated push behind one organised representative party work, yes, but it will take time, and we will all be very frustrated along the way. Is LegaSea the right group to support, that is a question for each person to decide for themselves, but personally I am not judging their success on what has been achieved to date, but more about how they are handling the path into the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote RaggedJoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2017 at 12:18pm
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I have watched this debate with interest and learned a lot from all the contributors. I am one of the silent majority, I fish now and then for fun and food, but don't have any particular will to get involved politically to protect the right to fish. I have donated to Legasea as I can see we do need representation and am happy to help fund that in a small way. Good on you all for your passion and commitment, keep up the good fight
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

I think a lot of people suffer from impatience when it comes to achieving results for rec fishing. That is behind a lot of the calls for more direct action etc. As many people, including myself. have pointed out in various posts, our countries record to date in rec angling is the rec sector giving, giving, and giving, whilst what we so far count as achievements is anything where the 'giving' is reduced or not as big as the government and comm sector are trying to demand. They of course then use this 'concept' in their future demands. 
The perfect example seems to be the new MPA proposals where we have very large MPA's proposed and smaller ones also proposed as being the less intrusive options. In reality this is just game playing with the non-rec sectors trying to force these through as the compromises the rec sector must make before they will do anything about their own damage to the fisheries. By listing both large and small MPA options they are trying to position the 'small option' as what they will accept as a compromise when the rec sector agree to compromise on whatever they are trying to achieve. Accepting the 'small options' is in fact yet another 'give' by the rec sector, but it has been positioned so that it won't appear that way. It is in fact all about forcing the rec sector to agree to the other parties not making any substantial contributions, but at the same time positioning the rec sector to be seen as the bad guy.
This is the rubbish that I personally really hate, and is in fact my fear about been represented when it is obvious that the rec representatives are being politically circumcised by the way the  representative forums are being set up.
What this means to me is that the only real fix to our issues is a political one. Until we create enough political clout to make the government take notice, all the detail type stuff around MPA's and trawl areas etc are just battles that we must fight, but will never win. Best case at the moment is damage limitation until we get the political influencing sorted.
Can a ragtag bunch of rec groups become a political force, NO. Can a consolidated push behind one organised representative party work, yes, but it will take time, and we will all be very frustrated along the way. Is LegaSea the right group to support, that is a question for each person to decide for themselves, but personally I am not judging their success on what has been achieved to date, but more about how they are handling the path into the future.


Absolutely bang on again Dave.
That was the exact plan they implemented in the last round of allowance setting.
Leaked all these horrible scenarios then settled on the one we got. Seven at 300mm.
That was their desired position all along.
It is the standard modus operandi for these people.
What amazed me, was the number of people who actually believed our squeaks made them falter and the rec sector had dodged a bullet.
We in fact lost ground again. Even with the extra 500 tonne of rec allowance.
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G'day Guys,

plenty of good debate about this sensitive issue.

NSW had had saltwater fishing licenses for many years now, for me its a positive.

- bought out all commercial fishing in Sydney Harbour
- improved facilities at existing ramps
- new ramps
- maintenance of around 30 offshore FADS on NSW coast

I know the quota allocations are different in NZ, extremely tough to buy out comms.

I think the toughest part is with such a small population in NZ makes it extremely difficult to properly fund the enforcement of a fishing licence.

As with almost all licencing only the honest people will pay.

As the Kiwi Govt have huge stakes in the commercial fishing in NZ, good luck changing anything that will benefit recreational anglers.

5 fish and 35 cm minimum next?  Thumbs Down

I really hope not.

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2017 at 4:35pm
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We need to accept that for as long as the government see themselves better off aligning with the comm sector, the rec sector will continue to lose ground. We have a major issue in population growth that nothing in the current QMS or government attitudes will fix. 
The only true fix is going to be when the government finally believe that it is in their own personal best interests to align themselves and their decision making with the rec community. That means that until they truly fear the backlash from future decisions that go against the rec community, they will continue with their current process of supporting the commercial industry at the rec industries expense. Right now they still back themselves to produce enough 'spin' to confuse enough people in the rec community to make any backlash negligible. 
The release of their Fishing Park plan at the last minute during the last election campaign was a classic example. There were people on these forums and all over the place saying what a great thing the government was doing. As we now know, these proposals were not properly thought through and are probably now going to be implemented at significant cost to the rec community (again). Even all the various study forums etc being implemented by council and government badly marginalise the rec community by design.
Bottom line is that the only real solution for rec fishing is to get the government making decisions that properly reflect the importance of rec fishing to the people of this country. That is only going to happen once we have a decent degree of unity amongst ourselves.

As I mentioned before, why would this government implement a recreational fishing licence so that the rec community could have enough funds to properly challenge the government and comm industry through the courts? The only reason will be if we can make them politically uncomfortable enough to question whether there are too many votes at risk for them to carry on as they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2017 at 5:53pm
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Yep Dave hits the nail on the head... again

So it got bad in the 1980s. Muldoon was subsidising new fishing boats that did not go offshore but thrashed inshore stocks. the Quota System was introduced in 1986 to turn it around. The Quota Appeal Authority undid most of the catch reductions that were made.

 The coastal  Rec fishing was stuffed by the mid late 70s with the 12 or 3 mile cant rem which ) economic zone,  off shore factory ships sitting out nose to tail just over sending their trawlers in after dark....
 Which is why we and many other gave up fishing and went hot roding hunting etc...2nd hand boat market bottom dropped out.. Muldoons tax later didnt help either further taking out many in the boat building industry
 The 200 mile came in international around we brought our quota system in
 Mudloons, from memory was not his special tax exception for fishing boats,  (and farms) but something that came in under  Holyoak to build a non then non existent  industry for exports

Cabinet did not sign off Moyles promise.

 
Colin Moyle was agriculture minister around the 72/ 74(?)  period under Kirk...then stitched up by Rowling and Muldoon on the infamous homosexual BS charges because he was next in line for PM leaving the gate open for both of them
Over a decade and a couple governments before Quota

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Here are my views on Rec Fishing and a License system for all rec fisherman, we need to forget about commercial and sort out our own rec fishing first......

I think we should pay for an individual/rec fishing license and also have boat licenses.  I don’t think Legasea is the correct organisation to administer this.  Anyway I think it needs to be set up by the clubs in NZ and administered by them. Maybe everyone needs to join a club to rec fish in NZ this includes boat, shore and fresh water. Each registered club should provide e.g 2 rangers (club members) for their boundary and issue fines/information similar to parking wardens. In addition to rangers perhaps a voluntary support system from club members also needs to be implemented.

Money from the licenses should be used to increase signage/awareness, pay rangers all costs associated with rec licenses but no profit.  Clubs would need to make sure their members are correctly licensed. Fishing license fees should be incorporated into membership fees paid to the club via their subscriptions….

Having a single organisation administering Rec Fishing licenses for all rec fishers in NZ would make it easier for people to comply/buy licenses. I think rec fishing licenses are inevitable, it’s just the format and who manages the admin that needs to be sorted. Times are changing and we are at the point we as rec fisherman can make a change. I also think rules and regs need to be the same across the board. Look at what has happened in the snap 1 – rec fisherman are screwed no win or gain for any one, should have stayed as it was. No matter what is put in place it should be a non-profit organisation running.

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Only the government can write the laws to introduce a fishing licence.
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Never happen unless government dictates it.....and we then pay MPI for a licence.....makes me puke thinking that might happen.
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Originally posted by LegaSea Community Builder LegaSea Community Builder wrote:

Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by John H John H wrote:

]MB
LegaSea is not doing nothing.  See our Annual Report

The profile of recreational fishing in NZ has never been higher.
We supported a feature film on Recreational fishing on the Kiapara Harbour called THE CATCH on in cinemas now.  Last night there was an hour long ITM Fishing Show featuring LegaSea on prime time TV1 and a paid TV ad.

We have a Fish Care campaign starting soon and have been talking to politicians in the build up to election year. 

What you can do is sign up as a LegaSea Legend to make LegaSea more effective.

Or keep up to date with WHAT IS BEING DONE by subscribing for free


John so what has Legasea actually achieved for recreational fishes of NZ. All I seemed to read is a lot of Pr rhetoric.

If I could help answer, John will probably also have his own comments.

A voice. Evident by the growing support from individuals and industry and submissions to govt.      
The What's Fishing Worth study was a landmark achievement. In other countries the same type of report brought about policy changes and developments that valued rec fishing. Establishing the economic value of rec fishing has never been accomplished before. We have always been trying to convince govt of the economic benefits of rec fishing without being able to give hard data. We have the facts now to back up the arguments. 
From my perspective, part of the reason I joined LegaSea was because I could see an advocacy group becoming more organised and recognised and I couldn't remember seeing that before through out the last 40yrs of my rec fishing history. There have been organised fights like Option 4, but the reach, longevity and community getting behind LegaSea is in a whole different league now.



All well and good Scott, yes there's is a voice for recreational ( lets not forget the NZRFC is also supposed to represent the public of NZ), a face book page that apart from some helpful info the rest is either propaganda BS or full of the sort of crap you find on other social media pages and submissions made regarding fishery management. There is very little else that I see that Legasea has actually achieved to show affiliated NZSFC club members or the public that they are working for them.
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we pay membership fees now to clubs and governing bodies which make there own rules and govern them, why have the government involved- make it stand alone and govern ourselves  , all rec fishers have there views on what they want, reading all the stuff  in these threads the common factor I see is everyone thinks the gov is going to rip the funds and screw rec fishers. Why pay MPI for a license? theres the http://www.recfish.co.nz/ why cant they set the rules and regs- MPI yeh they set min lenght and numbers thats it- old man  said to me once - dont expect others to govern when you can govern yourselfs....  
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Self regulation rarely works. There are numerous bad and downright horrible examples with the most obvious being commercial fishing!
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Only a tiny % of rec fishers belong to clubs Scuzzy. If we add another $40 or whatever to the membership fees for a 'licence' then even less people will belong to the clubs. Without the backing of appropriate laws a licence of any sort will never work because people will just not want to spend the money. 
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