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Reccs are taking too much

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bigfishbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 10:43am
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A headline suggesting that recreational fishers taking 3 times more over thirty years, is nothing more than disingenuous headline grabbing. You have to wonder about the motivation of MPI. 

Only when you go to their website do they tell you that recreational Catch has declined since 2012.
www.waikatosportfishing.co.nz
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 11:28am
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Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1908/S00378/new-survey-measures-recreational-fishing.htm


Obviously done inconjunction with commercial,numbers do not stake up.


Even when confronted with this survey you still believe there is collusion between those doing the survey and commercial. I haven't read all the findings yet, there's a lot to digest but judging by the article recreational are doing just as much harm to the stocks as commercial. Even Scott MacIndoe tried shifting the blame squarely with commercial on the AM Show news rather than accept any fault by recreational. Little wonder this US & Them mentality exists.


It is an MPI release Tzer.

Why are recs at fault? The numbers just don't stack up as recs being at "fault".


While this may have been initiated by MPI it was done with National Research Bureau (NRB) and NIWA (the National Institute for Water and Atmospheric Research) help.

So if you lot dont accept the survey results tell me should have conducted the survey?

It appears to me that as recreational fisherman you dont want to believe that recreational aren't doing harm to fish stocks and not matter what commercial are solely to blame for what ever state our fisheries are in. Before last elections you all believed that a change in government & Stuart Nash was going to be the saviour for our fisheries, so how did that work out for you.



Didn't vote Labour.

The setting of rec limits is a silly concept because 2 million Kiwi adults could legally remove 7 snapper from the stocks today.

That does not happen though.

So lets look at the average and it turns out the average rec take is low.
So how can such a low average take across 100s of thousands of people be as bad as a trawler scooping everything that swims up? It is just not comparable.
Why do we have to live with mass fish dumpings because of numbers set by an idiot behind a desk? When people are going hungry.
Is the rec sector killing rare dolphins etc?

And after all is said and done the total comm catch landed dwarfs the rec sector with only snapper being close but new numbers show a big drop in rec take.

And we all know what that means.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 11:50am
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Those figures showing rec snapper catch falling dramatically indicate that by increasing our size limit and dropping our catch has worked.
It also means that recreational have taken all the pain in propping up sn1. Commercial ,to my knowledge,took no cuts whatsoever. In effect a fish transfer from recreational to commercial.

So the great quota management scam continues to work according to plan.
No genuine management system based on science ,reason and logic would continue to allow the levels of waste and undersize dumping that are known,but never officially recorded,while clamping down on recreational, who partake in one of the great joys in life,and the self responsibility that comes from catching your own.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote wayno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 4:10pm
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Two parallel threads here. One saying recreational take two much.
The other providing figures that say recreational catch in sn1 has fallen by around 21%.  Umm-----???

Shows just how wonderful "statistics" are, and how they can be manipulated according to point of view...


To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 4:54pm
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Originally posted by FizFisho FizFisho wrote:

What do the commercial guys do with undersized fish, arent they 25cm still? I mean long liners, those new nets seem to let the babys out.

Im wondering do they count the dead undersized fish in their commercial estimates?


"NO"

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rgm5drq0dgsm9fk/AACG9VcVfsC-5nsBKgwXIaLea?dl=0&preview=LegaSea+FFTP+Logo+Hrz_Blk.ai
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 7:00pm
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But the thing about under 25cm comms fish is they are landed, they are most often dead (long lines) due to suffocation. so why are they not taken into the comms figures? Is there publicly available info on how many comms long line fish are undersize and dead?


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 7:22pm
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I know my catch quantity has decreased in the last 5 years...
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 11:18am
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Just had a thought,
My last post is not 100% correct.
My memory is a little hard to access these days.
There "IS" approximately 4000 odd tonnes of mortality allowed for annually in commercial quota.
However, a few years ago I went to a couple of MPI meetings and when given this figure, both representatives spoken to told me it was already an old original estimate and both suspected it was well understated.
So I guess technically, mortality is accounted for.
Just not accurately as it may be too unpalatable to stomach.
As for non allocated by-catch, market grading and over species limit, well that is another wasteful story for another day.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rgm5drq0dgsm9fk/AACG9VcVfsC-5nsBKgwXIaLea?dl=0&preview=LegaSea+FFTP+Logo+Hrz_Blk.ai
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Coutta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 1:06pm
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I live in Rotorua so don't get out as often as I would like. When I go I fish out of Tauranga. I don't know whether I'm an average or below average fisherman. I don't really have an ego so it doesn't bother me. I don't go for big fish, I just go for a feed. I just went through my diary and this calendar year I've been out 11 times. Eight of those times my wife has been on the boat. This year we have kept 69 snapper, an average of just over six per trip. I use big hooks so catch very few undersized. Sometimes theres a couple of hundred trailers at the ramp but thats on a weekend and during the summer. During the week maybe 30 on a busy day. I'd say a lot get out about the same amount I do and probably catch round about the same amount, some more, some less. I don't think the rec fishers are doing the damage commercial would have us believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Sanchez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 5:21pm
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It's probably been posted before but this is a pretty good summary of the cameras on boats proposition. It's got to happen. It just makes sense.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/381912/fishing-industry-letter-to-stuart-nash-opposes-cameras-on-boats


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 9:15pm
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Thats like a recreational fisher saying to a fishery officer that they strongly oppose having their catch checked because they have nothing to hide.
The whole bitter debate about cameras shows there is no trust. And when trust is gone the what do you have. Very little.
Surely it would be in the industries interest to have a sustainable industry for all. There is much investment,jobs and dollars tied up in the fishing industry. And if fish numbers do decline then it will be the industry effected if a fishery becomes commercially non viable.
This country cant take many more economic setbacks.
And recreational should not take anymore setbacks either.

But what would cameras achieve. They would record undersize fish being landed by gear that is fully capable of catching undersize fish.
They would then record those undersize  being thrown back again,mostly dead or dying because the law requires that also. Our fishery deserves better than that.

Article says minister Nash,  is considering removing the law requiring to throw back undersize. What has happened to that. Is he still considering. Brain fog.? Or maybe gnashing.
Land all catch makes great sense. Some say --Oh but that would create a market for small fish. There already is a market for small fish.
Thats why we import small fish. Yet we dump our own. Maybe these people should visit Asia or the Mediterranean,or the Baltic. They love small fish.
Strange thing is. Gurnard for example have no minimum commercial size limit,while snapper do.
In SN1 the snapper quota is 4500 Ton or there abouts. 
But in reality that is not true. The art of deception comes into play.
Its 4500 T of legal size fish,but does not include the unknown amount of undersize that must be returned. So in reality the Quota figure is more than that,possibly much more.
So how can it be accessed how many fish are taken when they dont really know. After all dumped fish are still fish,but not counted. And on that basis how can future catch planning be determined. It cant.
So when we have land all catch then cameras would be essential to make sure it is landed. And at that point the quota figure would be come the actual figure.






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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote MightyBoosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 9:47pm
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If the commercials had to land everything they caught and their quota was based on total biomass landed, they would soon sort their **** out and use more selective fishing methods. Assuming the rules enforced of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 8:58am
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Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

If the commercials had to land everything they caught and their quota was based on total biomass landed, they would soon sort their **** out and use more selective fishing methods. Assuming the rules enforced of course.


I have made that suggestion at each of the meetings I have been to.
The reply from the commercial sector representative is basically if bring all home is applied to industry then it should apply to the rec sector as well.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rgm5drq0dgsm9fk/AACG9VcVfsC-5nsBKgwXIaLea?dl=0&preview=LegaSea+FFTP+Logo+Hrz_Blk.ai
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 9:48am
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Why we are not selling it for profit.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MightyBoosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 9:48am
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OK, I'd go with it. It's daft to apply it to recs, but if that's what it takes.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 9:50am
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Plus if it is a tit for tat attitude like that all size limits should be the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 11:23am
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

If the commercials had to land everything they caught and their quota was based on total biomass landed, they would soon sort their **** out and use more selective fishing methods. Assuming the rules enforced of course.


I have made that suggestion at each of the meetings I have been to.
The reply from the commercial sector representative is basically if bring all home is applied to industry then it should apply to the rec sector as well.

Maybe the comm sector rep has a point.

Size limits create waste. Does it really matter if a rec brings home 7 20cm snapper or 7 snapper in the 40-60 cm range. Either way its still 7 snapper. Better than killing and discarding 10 undersize in the quest for 7 legal. That would mean 17 fish killed as opposed to 7.
If a rec is unlucky or unskilled enough to catch numbers of undersize ,and if they are in such condition that they will not survive release then he should keep them as part of the limit.
Would also give a more even take across the biomass,rather than culling the big productive fish and protecting smaller fish,many of which will probably never grow to be big fish due to their genetics.
But would recs be honest enough to obey such a rule. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 11:31am
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exactly "cirrus" there have been a couple on this site when I suggested take the first 7 snapper.The comment was "thatll make a short day out"well fish smarter!

Comms are pointing the finger at us reccs so maybe we need to just take first 7 legal no sorting but how would you police it?
water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote JasonEdward62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 12:04pm
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Gotta say people, there is a huge lack of understanding that the quota system can cut our rec catch just because surveys show we're catching more. Even if a fishery is clearly stressed recreational TAC can be cut but it would be the first time ever if regs were used to cut recreational catch directly - only daily bag limits can be used to cut catch.

Look at CRA2 - everyone knows there is a problem so bag limits get cut and noone really minds. Or do you? I'm pretty pleased about it after watching myself dive get less and less crays over the past 20 years.

Would you guys really mind if the recreational bag for snapper or terakihi was cut in the same proportion as commercial...if there is an identified problem? e.g. how much would a 20% cut in snapper (7 to 5 a day for most of us) or 20% tarakihi (20 to 16 each per day) affect your fishing? Not much loss for reccies as we doin't normally take our limit yet for commercial it is a 20% cut in income. And a huge cut in catch for commercial but in reality, only a very few of us would be able to catch less...and would you have a problem with that?

Guys we can't have it both ways - many reccies (used to?) say "We don't need to report our catch as the MPI/NIWA scientists can do it accurately without us reporting." Legasea has said this on many occasions when I have suggested some form of reporting for reccies.  (How bout we push for the same as current snapper/H Gulf etc surveys but for ALL main species in ALL areas?).

Now the figures suggest higher catches than before so now we hear the same scientists have climbed into bed with the commercials.

Jezuz wept some of the you posters just defy logic.

But I work with the commercial sector so I'm biased and everything I write or say is crap...FFS the highest read social media (FB anyway) fishing person in rec fishing (Ben) works in sales - does that mean everything he says is a sales pitch? Does noone listen to him when he's selling because he is paid to sell so must be lying? No, they take into account he is in sales but also that he is or should be expert in what he is selling, and they listen to him then make their decisions. They don't call everything they don't agree with bull**** because he has a vested interest...

I'll say it again. Commercial, recreational, and customary MUST work together IF we want good outcomes for all.

And people, the huge voting power of us reccies mean we will never get kicked out of or even severely restricted in our fishing unless there is real need for that. And we'll never need to be licenced until we agree to the benefits of such a system.

Stop getting paranoid and start using your knowledge and passion alongside  - not against - the knowledge of MPI, NIWA, Maori, all stakeholders and yes, even commercial.

I guarantee that would result in more rec only areas given up voluntarily by commercial fishers.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 2:09pm
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That is good advice above, if you lived in fantasy land. But time and time again problem blame is normally landed on one party and NZ is more prone to it than most countries.

If you disagree that proportionally comms do far more overall damage to the fisheries and environment then you need your head looked at.

The very fact comms try to rope us in with them is frankly absurd. And just takes focus off the bigger picture of the overall NZ fishery and not just the small percentage that rec can target.
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