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Drag settings when trolling

Printed From: The Fishing Website
Category: Saltwater Fishing
Forum Name: Hints,Tips and How To's
Forum Description: Rigs, tackle, baits, angling techniques, tips and hints & your DIY projects here
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9387
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 6:46pm


Topic: Drag settings when trolling
Posted By: Bender
Subject: Drag settings when trolling
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 9:16am

It was a great gamefishing season but also quite a difficult one, given the large number of fish hooked and lost.

I wondered if the trolling drag settings had anything to do with it? What settings are people using - both full strike drag and trolling drag? Are they measurable, i.e. 2kg, 3kg, 4kg or whatever?

I'll start the ball rolling. We had the 24kg rods set on 7kg maximum strike drag. We trolled with just enough drag pressure to stop the lures dragging line out (number two on the Penn VSW 50s but not sure what that equates to in kgs of drag).

One strike, one marlin.



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Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.





Replies:
Posted By: obald
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 9:22am

Bit early in the winter for this sort of thing, Shane.

'Single or double hook rigs' normally comes up around August, 'roller trollers or blacks clips' September and, from memory, drag settings are slated for the second week in October.



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Random musings on all sorts of things http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/





Posted By: Kerren
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 9:31am

hahahahaahaha....very drol Mr Obald but my thoughts exactly!

but on a different note:

Did you catch a marlin Bender?



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I am Kermit, Leader of Muppets Nov 05


Posted By: Bender
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 10:09am

Sorry chaps I'm suitably chastised and thoroughly repentant. I just got excited looking at this photo stuck to the side of my computer at work. I don't like to go on and on about it but....

I've obviously totally got things screwed up. I went out about a month ago and bought some new Blacks clips. And I've just ordered a rigging kit and new crimpers. I was just thinking last night Mr Obe wan Kenarkwright, that it was time I had discussions with you, over one of your beers, re the hot lure colours for next season.

At this rate I'll be ready by about August 8th.

Good eh?

 



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Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.




Posted By: obald
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 10:17am
In the diary - and I will have been to, and returned from, the Channel Islands by then.

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Random musings on all sorts of things http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/





Posted By: Adam Scott
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 10:33am

You spent 1day on the water Bender, raised 1 marlin, hooked it and caught it! 100% hookup rate and 100% fish per days ratio! And you are wanting advice from us?

Dont know if I agree with the difficuilt season comment though, best season weather wise in years, best hookup rate we have had in years and best fish per days ratio we have had in years( nearly as high as yours Bender), and to top it off, most of the good fishing has been on the back door step in only 80m of water. I have ordered another one just like it for next year.



Posted By: Bender
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 10:33am

Kerren....

 

 

Adam - all I can say is thank goodness luck plays a role in fishing as well!

 



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Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.




Posted By: Kerren
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 10:54am

had to do a double take then Bender.....reckon from that angle you are a stunt double for the skipper of the Far Side.....

And as Adam says...you want advice from us?....piffle waffle....just keep doing what you are doing till it no longer works mate.

minimum over-run if off the rod tip, lighter if using a drop back and 1/3rd breaking strain @ strike?.....seems fairly straight foward?

After the fish settles down go up to the corner with confidence....I don't believe you will be able to break 24kg line thru the rod tip employing say 20kg of drag.....that is assuming there isn't any impact or jerky movements (read: get rid of your Penns) in the system at this stage.

Damn...didn't want to get dragged into this thread just yet.....I am pathetic!

 

 



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I am Kermit, Leader of Muppets Nov 05


Posted By: Bender
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 11:03am
Much more of that talk and you know where I'll place my Penns (after offering you a file to remove any sharp edges first.)

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Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.




Posted By: Coast to Coast
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 11:51am
No one wants to play then Bender? I'll be busy in October so here's my bit; after years of light drags I got frustated with dropping fish this year so set them at 8kg while we were at Houhora. It was one for one, (which fell off at the boat, although that was just luck in my opinion, nothing to do with drags) and a couple of 'fin. What I did conclude was 1/ on light drags its all or nothing, with strike drags the fish is more enthusiastic about another shot if it misses the first time, and 2/ I had forgotten just how much fun it is to have a fully loaded rod singing at strike drag while you clear the gear. especially the short corner when it pops out of the roller troller. Goddam its exciting. That alone is worth the price of admission...


Posted By: Kerren
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:22pm

roller troller??......you still using Hardy Bros Reels, linen line and splitcane rods as well??.....

After viewing (underwater cam) over 80 striped marlin attempting to bite, biting and hooking up on lures I have never been anymore convinced about using a light breakaways, dropbacks and a light drag system.....

very few of that 80 actually pounced on the bite out of share rage but those that did generally got hooked up anyway on the breakaway, dropback and light drag system. The one's that did pounce generally had competition from another fish or 2 or 3!

Most seemed to have a 3 step procedure......and that was...

give the lure a couple of twaks with it's bill at speed thus tripping the breakway.

Then slow down from attack mode with flared gills and with mouth agap attempting to suck the lure in to it's gob - which all things being equal should be dead in the water like everything else they have ever hit with their bills...this is where the dropback comes into effect....also remember that when a marlin has it's mouth open it's vision severly compromised beacuse of the bill....this is why they have an erratic side to side movement at the moment of truth....trying to get a bead on their target!!....

(NB to the above: you hear this all the time..."it had it's bill out of the water wagging over the lure....but never bit....obviously wasn't hungry!!"......ummm...the answer to this is "it had it's mouth open, so yes it wanted to eat but you were obviously moving the 'plate' away from the dinenr table" - this is what happens when you don't have a dropback in my opinion)

They then turned (generally away from the spread so as not to scatter the "bait") to swallow their "food" and I guess line themselves up for another go at the spread (bait). Of course at this stage the lever was slowly being pushed up to set the hook or if chaos was happening in the cockpit and no one was there to push the lever up then water pressure seemed (not %100 but well enough) to do the job even on a very light drag.

Just some observations that backed up the way i have been taught to fish for striped marlin by someone that has much much much more experience than most......but at the end of the day you have to use the method you have confidence in.....

damn damn damn....you owe me a beer for getting me further involved in this Rendle!!!



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I am Kermit, Leader of Muppets Nov 05


Posted By: Bender
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:30pm

Using rubber bands as breakways?

 

Kezz- re your double take. Can I help it if I look astonishingly like Bradd Pitt's fridge.

 



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Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.




Posted By: Kerren
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:37pm

dacron loops into blacks clips.....but yeah a #32 rubberband will surfice but nowhere near as good at releasing as immediately or as cleanly as a dacron loop and a tuned Blacks Clip.

hahahahaha....funny man!



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I am Kermit, Leader of Muppets Nov 05


Posted By: Coast to Coast
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:39pm
I'm sure we can organise that next week Packer. That's exactly how we have fished based exactly on that scenario. And I still believe it 100%. Its just that when you have the year from hell like we had this year... I really had forgotten how exciting it is to have a rod on strike load up though. We band and Blacks everything except that short corner. But then I run a couple of single speed Penns too. Although as you will probably see at the boat show we will have another brand involved with the magazine boat for next season.


Posted By: Bender
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:28pm

 Can't let it go. I can't get dacron loops to stick on the nylon. I've tried sizes from one inch to four inches and they just slip. The main line pulls through. I tried half hitching them with waxed thread, which is not fool proof and is a bloody hassle on a small boat out at sea, with a lure running on the line. It still slipped.

Same with powergum - 9 loop uni around the line - pressure - slip.

Faaaark.

 



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Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.




Posted By: Adam Scott
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 2:03pm
Biggest problem I have had with dacron loops is not them slipping under tow but when you are hookedup and that section of line goes back and forth thru the rollers a number of times on a stubborn fish. The dacron gathers up on the roller tip and gets pushed meters down the line, then does the same as it goes thru the then next roller and so on, then it hits the anglers fingers whos spreading the line and gets pushed even further down the line. When it comes to resetting the gear, it is no longer a fast and easy reset as it takes time to slip the loop back(slower than a rubberband). I went back to wax thread Bender, uni with half hitches after that and it doesnt slip. 


Posted By: obald
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 3:10pm
Two 9 wrap uni knots on 10kg powergum do not slip if you pull the uni knots tight enough and even if they do just put a separate uni knot 'stopper knot' above the loop - but you won't have to do that 'cos they don't slip anyway (vide supra).

It's not October - I have as much will power as FL.

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Random musings on all sorts of things http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/





Posted By: Plonker
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 7:03pm

I find even rubber bands slip if you've got too much baby oil on your hands Bender. I was baby oiling my lures on the weekend and had this problem.

had to do a double take then Bender.....reckon from that angle you are a stunt double for the skipper of the Far Side.....

 

Kerren, same angle but compared to Bender's photo, you will notice in the Far Side photo, cigarettes , alcohol and general decadent behaviour just around the corner.

You should know Kerren, I took your place at Hohoura and wound in your fish for ya too.

 

 



Posted By: dustin
Date Posted: 27 May 2005 at 1:31am
Is that Ants who had his 40th just a year ago?  Jammy geezer doesn't look a day older than 35 in that photo!


Posted By: dustin
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 1:08am

Bender... What size dacron are you using, and what size mono?  The dacron should be as snug on the mono as possible so it grips better.  say 80 dacron for 80 mono, 130 dacron works good with 130 mono... I haven't really tried with 50 mono but I've used 80 dacron with 60 mono with no problems.  The other problem most folks have with dacron loop slippage is they don't make the dacron section that holds the mono long enough.  4 inches should be OK but I make mine about 5.  The finishing hitches you make (I used waxed dental floss but you can split up a piece of waxed rigging floss into 3 narrow diameter strands which should work even better) are critical.  They must be tight enough to stop the dacron end from unravelling, but at the same time not too tight otherwise you can't slide the dacron up and down the line.  Practice makes perfect. 

I've had somewhat similar experiences as Adam re the dacron loop moving during the fight but resetting the loop has never really been a huge problem for me personally; then again we aren't normally besieged by hordes of hungry marlin so I guess we don't have such an urgent need to reset the spread in perfect position instantly after a caught fish. 

As for drags.. well I have to say after reading Matt's article in NZFN and also Kerren's post above the rationale behind what I thought were unbelievably light drag settings is now a lot clearer to me... Thanks Kerren and especially Matt for giving me (us) some real food for thought. 



Posted By: Peter da Squid
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 1:23am

Plonker and beer...........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I think he did bad things to that marlin? ahhhh well, wouldnt expect anything less from the Dodgey Bro's



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Good for Nuthin


Posted By: Bender
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 7:24am
Dustin .... sanity, thanks. Thats given me something to work on.

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Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.




Posted By: Bushpig
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 7:44am
dirty looking green water in that photo


Posted By: kiwiboy
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 12:11pm

agree with Dustin entirely!!!

my dacron loops , they hold well with big lures  , they are easily adjustable. And with blacks clips they work fantastic,  There is no damage to the mainline.

Its also easy to "breakout" the clip as well from the rigger upon retrieval.No problem if your into teasing fish.

Dont like roller trollers, springy outriggers,single halyards, hard drag, soft drag,straightbutt chair rods, 9 knots trollspeed, portiphino transoms, 5 plus rods out, 35knots of wind and no beer



Posted By: Blue Asparagus
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 12:47pm
so kiwi theres a few things you dont like then lol do you have problems with the loops being pulled from the reel by a fish? had thoughts of doing it but worried about a hang up in the guides so went to roller trollers, any thoughts???????BA

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Ultimate GAME Fishing Adventures. Northland



Posted By: Kerren
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 1:23pm
must fish together one of these days Heath...think we might get along just fine!!....

BA...As long as the loops aren't too big then there aren't any promblems like what you are suggesting....Dacron loops are yet to really catch on here in NZ, but a lot of the top international boats and a few of the ones here employ them....hmmmm...wonder why?

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I am Kermit, Leader of Muppets Nov 05


Posted By: Blue Asparagus
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 2:17pm
yeah i get the idea there kerren i will try em this season coming but will slot em over the trollers and see how we get on. cheers.

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Ultimate GAME Fishing Adventures. Northland



Posted By: obald
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 2:19pm
powergum

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Random musings on all sorts of things http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/





Posted By: Kerren
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 3:40pm
do you have Powergum for sale Arkwrite?

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I am Kermit, Leader of Muppets Nov 05


Posted By: obald
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 4:44pm
Oh yes indeed I do

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Random musings on all sorts of things http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/





Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 7:59am
Don't know if you knew, Obie, that Powergum was first used in fly fishing as a "shock" attachment, from the end of the flyline to the leader. Purpose - to allow lighter leaders to be used. I tried it back in the early 90s but I never got the hang of it as I found it added to much stretch.
Good to see that some use was made for it.

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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: kiwiboy
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 1:26pm

Anytime Kerran , no problem. well done on  this website, I really enjoy it

 



Posted By: obald
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 1:44pm
I did know that, Roy.

It is also widely used in the UK somewhere in the rig for pole fishing. You know the sort of thing 21 ft rods, no reel and a 4lb bag made up of 4 squillion 1/8 oz bleak or sticklebacks. I actually bought some in a UK tackle shop a couple of years back - they had truckloads of it.

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Random musings on all sorts of things http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/





Posted By: sooshee
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 3:30pm
Quote: Originally posted by Bender on 24 May 2005

It was a great gamefishing season but also quite a difficult one, given the large number of fish hooked and lost.

I wondered if the trolling drag settings had anything to do with it? What settings are people using - both full strike drag and trolling drag? Are they measurable, i.e. 2kg, 3kg, 4kg or whatever?

I'll start the ball rolling. We had the 24kg rods set on 7kg maximum strike drag. We trolled with just enough drag pressure to stop the lures dragging line out (number two on the Penn VSW 50s but not sure what that equates to in kgs of drag).

One strike, one marlin.


<SCRIPT language=javascript>postamble(); Bender, I've never game fished (but will eventually one day ). I have read Bill Hall's Marlin Fishing book though and I do recall that he mentioned his hook up rate improved significantly when his trolling drag was set as light as possible- i.e. just light enough to stop lures dragging out.  He was also a covert to single hook rig too, which I also recall increased his hook up rate for his style of trolling.

 



Posted By: dustin
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 6:07am

Bluey, you won't have problems with dacron loops fouling in the guides if you're using windon or bigfoot rollers... but on 50 and 30 lb class rods with smaller rollers and (especially) smaller roller tips it could be a problem.  You might have to run your line straight through the roller trollers with those.  (I don't mind roller trollers, especially with smaller lures- but I don't like using them with dacron or powergum loops as much as blacks clips because the roller section is bulkier and more cumbersome to snap through the loop than the pin of a Black's clip, plus you need to make the loops in your dacron or powergum bigger to accomodate). 

-----------------

Kerren we need to see some of this footage, whilst fishing the Canaries a week or so ago I was able to look over the underwater footage taken off Ghana again, and it would be really cool to compare how striped marlin react to a lure compared to blues. 

Mate given that you had the opportunity to video limitless numbers of striped marlin, it would have been really interesting to film them attacking (A) hookless lures, and (B) hooked lures on heavier strike drag too.  Just as a comparison?  Maybe next time, you lucky sod? 

btw - no matter how you're playing the strike drag game - if you see that bill wagging behind your lure but for some reason he just can't seem to eat it - give it to him with the rod/reel or slow the boat and let him catch it - this really does work!  If I see a fish behind lure I'll normally just wait as quite often they will attack and get hooked by themselves, if he's behaving lazily you might want to take a couple of cranks on the reel and try and fire him up - but if they are clearly all over the lure but just can't seem to catch it, just try giving it to him. Once you see him take the lure and turn, wind tight and hopefully he'll be on.  But if he's not, wind the lure back in position and hold your course, odds are he will come back and try again.  Don't be too quick to give up on a missed shot.  In the Atlantic we fish blue marlin and white marlin which are like a miniature version of your stripeys - blues are the most likely to be crash bang one hit wonders (but even so you can definitely pull off a second or third shot on them sometimes) but whiteys seem to stay on a lure a lot longer and will often give you multiple shots until you either hook them up or they finally get spooked.   



Posted By: Kerren
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 7:20am

Dusty....

The footage will become available to the international audience in due course.....more on exactly how that will happen in a press release....like you say this "stuff" is not only entertaining but also educational....lovely.

"Mate given that you had the opportunity to video limitless numbers of striped marlin, it would have been really interesting to film them attacking (A) hookless lures, and (B) hooked lures on heavier strike drag too.  Just as a comparison?  Maybe next time, you lucky sod?  "

There was a certain amount of trialing different "types" of bites mate....hookless teasers, pitch baits, armed lures.....etc etc

We compared the footage from Ghana to the stuff we shot and of course we are bias or perhaps it was the share numbers we captured, but the footage has a cleaner more exciting feel to it in my opinion.



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I am Kermit, Leader of Muppets Nov 05


Posted By: obald
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 7:36am
Quote: Originally posted by dustin on 30 May 2005

(I don't mind roller trollers, especially with smaller lures- but I don't like using them with dacron or powergum loops as much as blacks clips because the roller section is bulkier and more cumbersome to snap through the loop than the pin of a Black's clip, plus you need to make the loops in your dacron or powergum bigger to accomodate). 

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Not really Dustin. They have to be a bit bigger but not to make the sort of difference you are inferring. Theoretically the loop for a Black's could be 3mm diam - obviously absurd, but you get my drift. At the beginning of last season I inadvertantly made a PG loop for a roller troller a bit smaller than I had intended (about 12mm diam) but it works like a Swiss watch. I now make them all that size. I, as you know, run pedominantly 50lb gear and none of my rods has oversize tip rollers - no problem.



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Random musings on all sorts of things http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://obaldnz.blogspot.com/





Posted By: billfish
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 1:32pm

Talk about antithesis.  I'm looking out the window at quite possibly the worst most foul @sred weather ever and here I find Obie, cosy and warm in his on little virtual niche of bluewater heaven, tackle talkin'.   Good on ya mate.

No golf today then?




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