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DOC Eco nazis strike again

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Category: Freshwater Fishing
Forum Name: Freshwater Fission
Forum Description: The place to discuss all matters related to freshwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88746
Printed Date: 23 Sep 2019 at 6:49am


Topic: DOC Eco nazis strike again
Posted By: Flyfishboy
Subject: DOC Eco nazis strike again
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 4:57pm
Not content with smothering the bush with 1080 DOC zealots are now targeting trout with Rotenone. Described as an "experiment" trout have been eradicated in some Wellington small streams. Listen to them proudly proclaim their massacre.

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/aft/aft-20130304-1532-our_changing_world_-_trout_eradication_at_zealandia-048.mp3



Replies:
Posted By: Southern_Jez
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 5:11pm
Not every cares about our favourite sportfish like we do. I don't agree with DOC on this one, but I can not deny that trout are an invasive species that have decimated our natural stocks of freshwater Koura and Native trout (which in turn spawn whitebait).

I personally wont shed a tear for a few small streams, they couldnt possibly continue this action outside a select area as the opposition would be massive. But at the end of the day, trout are not native, and have had a huge impact on native species.


Posted By: Te Awa Kairangi Angler
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 10:29pm
Zealandia is a wildlife sanctuary - not a trout fishery! It's right that trout are removed from here, like other introduced predators. Banded kokopu are a threatened galaxiid species and are thriving in the absence of trout. That's what you should be alarmed about: how well native galaxiidae do without their major predator. Trout have impacted negatively on galaxiidae in a huge way. Removing trout from a selected few waters to enhance galaxiidae will not ruin your trout fishing. On the contrary, you could then shed some responsibility for the over zealous actions of our early trout liberators. The choice is simple. Better manage our most threatened galaxiidae or watch them move closer to extinction


Posted By: Mike.Thomas
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 11:17am
I for one remember that old chestnut being used to justify removing trout from one of the Kai Iwi lakes, but as soon as they removed the trout the Galaxiid population crashed! Turned out the trout were feeding on the mosquito fish and once the mosquito fish had no predators the population increased and they ate the fry of the Galaxiid.
The removal of trout from the Zeelandia park only works for the Galaxiid becouse they poisoned everything including the natives and then once the poison is dispersed you can re introduce only the species you want. Would not work in most environments but perfect for the isolated Zealandia.
All the best.
Mike


Posted By: o Neill
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 1:03pm
Putting the cost aside would have electro fishing have been a better option? Fish released into another waterway and not poison the water they are trying to protect afterall I assume these small streams flow somewhere?


Posted By: Zambezi
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 1:28pm
too a lake, that can be isolated?


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A man’s comfort in life can be measured by the quality of the toilet paper he uses to wipe his arse.


Posted By: o Neill
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 1:39pm
A local river could have benefitted. (Hutt).


Posted By: Flyfishboy
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 3:51pm
The key words and motives here are "eradication" and "experiment". The Eco nazis have always advocated "eradication" their ideal would be to have NZ go back to pre European settlement. Well guess what we live in a modified environment and I say to them get used to it. Just because an organism isn't "native" doesn't mean it's a pest. So we eradicate cows? Oak trees? Ryegrass? Clover? I think you get my drift. And if you think trout could'nt be regarded as a pest think Canada Geese, now gazetted as a pest species. O Neil nailed it by saying that the trout within Zelandia could have been relocated. A kids fish out pond? In fact a chance was missed Zelandia could have been people friendly by stocking the reservoir which used to be Karori water supply with the trout now deceased. And this " experiment" in their eyes a success, could be rolled out to some South Island streams.


Posted By: o Neill
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 4:32pm
Did the local f and G know about this? if not why not and if not the DOC language has a sinister message to other waterways and their fish populations. is it Zealandia that Morgan sponsor's if so with his funds DOC could have a new ally and a dangerous one. 


Posted By: Southern_Jez
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 4:59pm
Yes DOC could have gone about it better, perhaps some more tender words or explanations as to why they did this would have been appropriate (Zealandia news release here: http://www.visitzealandia.com/news-item/recovery-of-native-fish-at-zealandia/ ). If this is done in a larger waterway, there will be publicity and protests, and I will be in those protests pushing back against the destruction of a fishery I take many many hours of enjoyment from. 

However, until then I won't lose sleep over the management of a privately managed stream (only 80% of waterways in NZ are covered by Queens Chain), in a privately managed park that is designed to give a representation of a pre-European New Zealand.

Disclaimer: By "Privately managed" I refer to the fact it is run by a charitable trust, not DOC or other Govt department.


Posted By: o Neill
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 5:56pm
So Zealandia could have sought other options for the fish to be removed rather than just allowing DOC to be jury and executioner, DOC have already done this in larger waterways, Whitby lakes as a local Wellington example,  where they have sought to destroy local sportsfish populations and be judge, jury and executioner and if DOC has no jurisdiction over the waters and the fish why were they allowed a concent order to poison the water? Do these streams start and stop within the Zealandia boundaries or do they flow into public land?  The fish in waterways should be getting better protection from those within DOC who live with this idea of creating a pre human land.


Posted By: long john
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 8:20pm
Good work DOCClap The idea is to make it a native only environ so trout have gotta go. 'Tis a pity it's not feasable on a larger scale but technology is always improving


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Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club


Posted By: Mike.Thomas
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by o Neill o Neill wrote:

Did the local f and G know about this? if not why not and if not the DOC language has a sinister message to other waterways and their fish populations. is it Zealandia that Morgan sponsor's if so with his funds DOC could have a new ally and a dangerous one. 

Not sure but from memory I think Fish and Game were quite supportive of the zealandia idea. It is after all supposed to be a slice of how NZ used to be before the introduced species, shame they could not clone some NZ Grayling, now they would be worth fishing forThumbs Up.
All the best.
Mike


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Mike.Thomas Mike.Thomas wrote:

I for one remember that old chestnut being used to justify removing trout from one of the Kai Iwi lakes, but as soon as they removed the trout the Galaxiid population crashed! Turned out the trout were feeding on the mosquito fish and once the mosquito fish had no predators the population increased and they ate the fry of the Galaxiid.
All the best.
Mike
 
We cant really blame the pioneers for introducing a host of animals.   They did not know any better.    One hundered years on one can expect the new  eco warrior brigade to have a much better grasp of how complex our ecolocial setting has become.    Well judging by the above and below examples they have learnt very little.     Make no mistake the trial at Zealandia has a much more sinister purpose.
Below is a letter I sent to my local paper.    They back Margan and did not publish it.
Rainbow
 

Demon Cats

Most people working in conservation sooner or later come to the realisation that much of this country’s biota is on life support.   The threats our native plants and animals face are so complex, so interactive and so 3-dymentional that one can only shake one’s head at the utter naivety of Gareth Morgan’s one-track urban cat eradication pipe dream.   He may be a brilliant economist and certainly has made a pile of money, some of which he now wants to put to work for conservation (such as the mouse eradication programme on one of our subantarctic islands), which is to be applauded. 

It is true that hungry cats can have a devastating impact on native wildlife such as the remnant kakapo population on Steward Island and some mainland seabird breeding colonies.   While the latter threat can be controlled through a dedicated trapping/poison programme the average feral cat has to scratch for a living and is most likely surviving on mice, rats, rabbits, introduced birds rather than singling out native species. The mouse it eats can no longer devour native insects or seeds of native plants.   The rat it kills can no longer eat skinks or rob nests of native birds or kill their fledgling young.   The rabbits it bounces on helps to keep the bunny population from exploding and some of the introduced birds it catches may be serious competitors to native birds occupying a similar ecological niche.  

 

While the above examples are overly simplistic they do serve as examples of how complex and ongoing the ecological interaction between our native and the introduced species really is and that is without expanding this sad tale to stoats, opossums, new diseases and the widespread habitat destruction in the name of progress.  

 

Demonising domestic moggies might give some urban greenies a warm, fuzzy feeling and a newly discovered sense of patriotism but it also nicely diverts our attention from the stark warning so eloquently put by Sir David Attenborough in the same paper that the exploding human population has become the greatest threat to life on earth, including our own.



Posted By: SpringCreeky
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 10:30pm
I think Te Awa Kairangi Angler has nailed it on the head. We certainly need to put some effort into protecting our endangered Galaxiid species even at the expense of trout. Our native freshwater fish species are unique to this country, much like the Kokako or even the All Blacks for that matter. Legislatively native freshwater fish have very little direct protection compared to other species. Furthermore, trout have exclusive protection under the Resource Management Act, so in a sense are already ahead.

I don't think a fish out or electro-fishing would have been effective in the reservoir. It may have reduced trout numbers but not achieved complete eradication. For example electro-fishing has been used to control pest fish (Koi, Rudd, Goldfish) in small lowland lakes in the Waikato using a specially designed boat. My understanding is that this drastically reduced fish numbers but did not cause complete eradication. 

A Rotenone operation in freshwater is much more complex than aerially broadcasting 1080. So I don't think DOC will ever have the resources or gain enough stakeholder support to under take such an operation on a large scale 

Cheers 

Justin 

 


Posted By: Mullins
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 10:45pm
Rainbow - fantastic article, well researched and not at all speculative. 
 
Do you think feral cats have a positive net effect on native species? If so, how many of these rat killing, bunny bouncing eco-saviours do you reckon would be optimal? More? Fewer? Breeding programme required?
 


Posted By: SpringCreeky
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 11:21pm
Rainbow

I think DOCs eradication of trout at Zealandia and Gareth Morgans stance on cats are different.  

Your explanation suggests removing cats doesn't resolve the problem it simply creates a new one. By the analogy in your letter you would have to remove every single pest species to be effective. The use of Rotenone would do just that. I guess it is the fresh water version of intense pest eradication carried out on off shore islands, Maungatautri and of course Zealandia. In terms of recovery of native species these are generally seen as a success.  

Sadly we have made a mess of it all. but there are situations were we can make improvements and I don't think the operation at Zealandia should be seen as sinister or the actions of zealots.    




Posted By: sharp hook
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 8:43am
For some time I promoted the idea that NZ needed to review the trout/coarse /native fish in rivers and lakes.My view was that some areas need to be native only/trout [natives take their chances]and  coarse fishing .This would give us all what I think is a balanced outcome.If we look at the arrival of outside organisems we see that the imports by the first settlers has and is still causing ecological damage [pacific rats]but they are a "treasure".There are imports arriving all the time [pellicans are the latest].Nz is a changing  place that we do want to protect but we have to accept change.My views did not fit the outlook of those in charge and I no longer get invited to give my point of view in places of "learning"


Posted By: Zambezi
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 8:49am
Originally posted by sharp hook sharp hook wrote:

There are imports arriving all the time [pellicans are the latest].


Wrong example, they're classed as native as they found their own way here.


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A man’s comfort in life can be measured by the quality of the toilet paper he uses to wipe his arse.


Posted By: Jet_ski_fisher
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 10:24am
they're classed as native as they found their own way here??? So if a shet load of overseas refugee's Found there way here on boats and settled as well are they natives then? as the way i looked at it, they are over stayers...

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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">
MH... Catch measure release...<*))))<


Posted By: o Neill
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 10:38am
Everyone found their way here by boats orginally including the Polynesian rats.


Posted By: Zambezi
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Built_to_fish Built_to_fish wrote:

they're classed as native as they found their own way here??? So if a shet load of overseas refugee's Found there way here on boats and settled as well are they natives then? as the way i looked at it, they are over stayers...


yes they are, this is not about a group of people making there way here under their own steam, take that argument elsewhere.

Unlike with the Kai Iwi lakes experiment (where they just removed trout), they're talking about getting as many natives out as the can then killing everything thats left behind off.

If the trout made their own way here then so be it let them stay but unlike the pelicans they didn't. There fore there is nothing natural about there existence in NZ.

Other than the pelican statement I agree with sharp hook's post completely.

At the end of the day the stream they're going to do this in are one of a few that can be isolated and contained (with realisitc bounds and with out natural factors like weather/floods) with out any additional human interference/development needed that would cause further down stream impact.

Even if it's the only one they do it in (which is unlikley), good on them for at leasting trying to do something to save these fish before they're all gone.





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A man’s comfort in life can be measured by the quality of the toilet paper he uses to wipe his arse.


Posted By: Zambezi
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 10:48am
http://terranature.org/extinctBirds.htm" rel="nofollow - http://terranature.org/extinctBirds.htm

They were here before humans and after.


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A man’s comfort in life can be measured by the quality of the toilet paper he uses to wipe his arse.


Posted By: Mullins
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 11:10am
Originally posted by Built_to_fish Built_to_fish wrote:

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">they're classed as native as they found their own way here??? So if a shet load of overseas refugee's Found there way here on boats and settled as well are they natives then? as the way i looked at it, they are over stayers...</span>


They would be classified as indigenous and offered a range of 4g frequencies.


Posted By: Flyfishboy
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 8:31pm
And here's me thinking that this site was for fishos. Just goes to show " the enemy is within" . Bye I,m off fishing!


Posted By: long john
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 9:44pm
Hope you release them well up the bank

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Proud member of the Glen Innes Spearfishing Club


Posted By: Flyfishboy
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2013 at 8:40am
Ha ha. That's nice. (As in Mrs Browns boys)


Posted By: Zambezi
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2013 at 9:19am
Hope you remember to take the tinfoil hat off while you're outside/fishing


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A man’s comfort in life can be measured by the quality of the toilet paper he uses to wipe his arse.


Posted By: sharp hook
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2013 at 7:58pm

Two Pesticides -- Rotenone and Paraquat -- Linked to Parkinso

The study was a collaborative effort conducted by researchers at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which is part of the National Institutes of Health, and the Parkinson's Institute and Clinical Center in Sunnyvale, Calif.

"Rotenone directly inhibits the function of the mitochondria, the structure responsible for making energy in the cell," said Freya Kamel, Ph.D., a researcher in the intramural program at NIEHS and co-author of the paper appearing online in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives. "Paraquat increases production of certain oxygen derivatives that may harm cellular structures. People who used these pesticides or others with a similar mechanism of action were more likely to develop Parkinson's disease.

n's Disease, Study Suggests

Feb. 15, 2011 — New research shows a link between use of two pesticides, rotenone and paraquat, and Parkinson's disease. People who used either pesticide developed Parkinson's disease approximately 2.5 times more often than non-users.




Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2013 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by SpringCreeky SpringCreeky wrote:

Rainbow

I think DOCs eradication of trout at Zealandia and Gareth Morgans stance on cats are different.  

Your explanation suggests removing cats doesn't resolve the problem it simply creates a new one. By the analogy in your letter you would have to remove every single pest species to be effective. The use of Rotenone would do just that. I guess it is the fresh water version of intense pest eradication carried out on off shore islands, Maungatautri and of course Zealandia. In terms of recovery of native species these are generally seen as a success.  

Sadly we have made a mess of it all. but there are situations were we can make improvements and I don't think the operation at Zealandia should be seen as sinister or the actions of zealots.    

 
Personally I see Zealandia as something of a open air zoo and an expensive one at that.   As such I am not really interested in it other than that it has become a rallying place for dreamers of the  "Pest Free NZ Vision".    If you really want to champion for the better protection of natice galaxiids than your efforts would be better spent on working for the decommercialisation of the whitebait fishery and the introduction of a maximum daily catch.   
 
There are countless troutfree water courses up and down the country that are ideal whitebait habitat but are relentlessly hammered all season long by whitebaiters many of them with dollar signs in their eyes.    While trout eat native fish, the real threat to their welfare is widespread habitat destruction and fishing pressure.    Like with singling out cats it easier to demonise trout than to look and act on the wider picture.
 
Rainbow  


Posted By: SpringCreeky
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2013 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by sharp hook sharp hook wrote:


<h1 id="line" ="story">Two Pesticides -- Rotenone and Paraquat -- Linked to Parkinso</h1>

The study was a collaborative effort conducted by researchers at the
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which is
part of the National Institutes of Health, and the Parkinson's Institute
and Clinical Center in Sunnyvale, Calif.


"Rotenone directly inhibits the function of the mitochondria, the
structure responsible for making energy in the cell," said Freya Kamel,
Ph.D., a researcher in the intramural program at NIEHS and co-author of
the paper appearing online in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.
"Paraquat increases production of certain oxygen derivatives that may
harm cellular structures. People who used these pesticides or others
with a similar mechanism of action were more likely to develop
Parkinson's disease.

<h1 id="line" ="story">n's Disease, Study Suggests</h1>
               
               
                    <p id="first"><span ="date">Feb. 15, 2011</span> — New research
shows a link between use of two pesticides, rotenone and paraquat, and
Parkinson's disease. People who used either pesticide developed
Parkinson's disease approximately 2.5 times more often than non-users.




Interesting.... But not surprising considering how nasty paraquat is!
Is it still widely used? Google tells me Ravensdowne sell a paraquat product, and I am pretty sure I have used a herbicide which recommended mixing with paraquat when spraying out lucerne.

I wonder what the life span of rotonone is in water, I know it doesn't last long in soil. I think it also the active ingredient in Derris dust?



Posted By: SpringCreeky
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2013 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Originally posted by SpringCreeky SpringCreeky wrote:

Rainbow

I think DOCs eradication of trout at Zealandia and Gareth Morgans stance on cats are different.  

Your explanation suggests removing cats doesn't resolve the problem it simply creates a new one. By the analogy in your letter you would have to remove every single pest species to be effective. The use of Rotenone would do just that. I guess it is the fresh water version of intense pest eradication carried out on off shore islands, Maungatautri and of course Zealandia. In terms of recovery of native species these are generally seen as a success.  

Sadly we have made a mess of it all. but there are situations were we can make improvements and I don't think the operation at Zealandia should be seen as sinister or the actions of zealots.    


 
Personally I see Zealandia as something of a open air zoo and an expensive one at that.   As such I am not really interested in it other than that it has become a rallying place for dreamers of the  "Pest Free NZ Vision".    If you really want to champion for the better protection of natice galaxiids than your efforts would be better spent on working for the decommercialisation of the whitebait fishery and the introduction of a maximum daily catch.    
 
There are countless troutfree water courses up and down the country that are ideal whitebait habitat but are relentlessly hammered all season long by whitebaiters many of them with dollar signs in their eyes.    While trout eat native fish, the real threat to their welfare is widespread habitat destruction and fishing pressure.    Like with singling out cats it easier to demonise trout than to look and act on the wider picture.
 
Rainbow  



Yes there are many issues that affect our native species..... The list is long so we have a lot of work to do in a number of areas..... But does the general population care enough to try and make a difference... Probably not. But these small pockets are a start and possibly a good way to, at least, get people interested in conservation.

While we are thinking about restricting the white bait catch we should look at the commercial eel fishery and long fins as well

Cheers


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2013 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by SpringCreeky SpringCreeky wrote:

Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

[QUOTE=SpringCreeky]Rainbow



While we are thinking about restricting the white bait catch we should look at the commercial eel fishery and long fins as well

Cheers
 
Spring Creek
Here we are on the same page.     However, I see DOC's trout poisoning at Zealandia as a convenient trial run for further as yet undisclosed projects on the Doc estate.    Apart from a small DOC team managing the Taupo trout fishery and that only becasue of a binding agreement between the Crown and Tuwharetoa the rest of DOC regards trout as "the possums of the rivers".     It and its idiological string pullers, the Forest and Bird Society do everything to undermine the public perception of trout as a valuable sport fish.     
 
This comes from a department that cant even look after its most basic national park assets.   Only the other day I took my grandson to Egmont National Park on yet another track that had been let go to wreck and ruin through lack of even the most basic maintenance.    I avoid going there as it breaks my heart to see how an endless parade of woolyheaded money wasters has mismanaged the department.     Its new regional structure is now more or less the same as that of the NZ Forest Service (one of DOC's founding departments) when DOC was formed in 1987.     If it were not so painful to go back over the years I spent in DOC I could write a book about the many hairbrained schemes and and general lack of efficiency motivation I had to endure during that time.     Zealandia is symtomatic of people trying to walk on water.    
Rainbow



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