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Its not the size that counts, its how you use it..

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Category: General Forums
Forum Name: The Boat Shed
Forum Description: Discuss all things boating.
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83403
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 10:34pm


Topic: Its not the size that counts, its how you use it..
Posted By: peeda
Subject: Its not the size that counts, its how you use it..
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2012 at 11:31pm
That just caught 80% you guys out didnt it! LOL
 
Anyway just trying to spark up a bit of debate on what boats under 5m would you choose to go offshore or semi offshore with? Keep it simple and say weather is irrelevant, just based on plain build, bouyoncy, bar crossings and safety etc.
 
Stabi's, Frewza, Ramco, Surtees, Mcclay and anything else you guys can think of. Would love to hear your thoughts, ideas etc.
 
Cheers

P.s - Sorry for those who clicked on the topic thinking otherwise.... LOLLOL



Replies:
Posted By: daveo
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 7:15am

took my old surtees 4.85cc 50km+ off the back of the aldermans trolling for marlin, and been a similair distance multiple times in a little frewza 4.2m pontoon. both great and would happily do it again in either. although the frewza wouldnt be a comfortable ride back if it chopped up it would definatly be safe.

small pontoons in most brands (senator 440,500,stabi 389 or 459,frewza f14 or f16, profile 465c etc) are great little offshore boats imo you just have to pick the weather if you dont want to come back in 2 inches shorter LOL the surtees and extremes are also really great boats, and for there size ride is IMO unbeatable but they are not as stable (as stable I am not saying they are unstable) and abit slower to get on the plane when bar crossing
 
If I had the pick and $$ great little boat would be a senator 500 with f70 on the back


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Posted By: Miss Lidgard
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 6:10pm
Stabicraft 430 pre-2000 model is a very good boat.  Regularly took mine out past mayor from Whangamata and out to the ninepin trench in BOI when I had her.  There was a couple of guys who had one the same as mine and took it from the manukau up to 3 kings and back down the east coast a few years back.  There was a write up about it in an old fishing news mag if I recall....  Not much room inside these earlier boats but bigger bouancy of the round pontoons.
Rounder pontoons gave a better ride too IMHO.


Posted By: daveo
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 7:07am
from mankau up to the three kings Shocked would love to find a copy of the report

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Posted By: snapper14
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 11:05am
i remember that story in the fishing news. Had a hard top on it if i recall and they strapped a plastic drum on top with their dry gear etc in it?!



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If a man goes nowhere and theres no one there to see him, did he ever leave?

Munter - Outrageous Fortune.


Posted By: Durban
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 11:32am
from what ive seen & heard about stabicraft boats that they are apparently well known for being unsinkable due to the design , i personaly have had some bad experiances out at sea in other country , & prefer a boat with at least 4 inches above water line free board air tight sealed deck ,with x2 scupper holes in transome & the pontoons like a stabi craft has on , then i know for sure that i will stay afloat no matter how rough the sea gets & even if the boat capsizes , iam a bit weary going out to sea with a boat that has got a deck below the water line , no scuppers & a bilge pump only to me this is a bucket in the sea wiating to fill up if the sea realy gets rough & water starts coming over onto the deck , i cannot sea the bilge pump coupeing very well in this situation


Posted By: Miss Lidgard
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Durban Durban wrote:

with x2 scupper holes in transome & the pontoons like a stabi craft has on , then i know for sure that i will stay afloat no matter how rough the sea gets & even if the boat capsizes , iam a bit weary going out to sea with a boat that has got a deck below the water line , no scuppers & a bilge pump only to me this is a bucket in the sea wiating to fill up if the sea realy gets rough & water starts coming over onto the deck , i cannot sea the bilge pump coupeing very well in this situation

Couldn't agree more.  Mine had no bilge pump, but 2 x scuppers which fair sucked the water out when underway.  Had a few experiences of waves coming over all different angles, but it drains really quick and the positive bouncy is something I wouldn't be without in such a small boat.  I also used to wear a belt with a PLB on it.  I figured if it flipped or I went over the side while underway (and alone) there is no point having an epirb onboard unless it is on you!


Posted By: Swintsnz
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2018 at 11:31pm
Really interesting thread!


Posted By: Joker
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 12:22pm
For stability you cant beat the pontoon style or hulls with extended chines way forward like the FC boats giving 4 points of stability especially when bar crossing. It can be like the difference between a 4 when car and a Mr Bean 3 wheel car.

Don't be confused about sealed pontoons as its the hull shape that gives stability and pontoons just run on the extended pontoons like chines. The hull doesn't know its a sealed air chamber.

Back to the original question about sub 5m boats. I had an FC500 C/C that we took everywhere including crossing the Manukau bar. The FC430 is the same hull, just a little shorter but still seaworthy. With the sealed under floor and floatation in the gun whale sides these are unsinkable and very dry boats.




Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by peeda peeda wrote:

That just caught 80% you guys out didnt it! LOL

My first thought was game fishing from 5 metre boats or smaller. I definitely have a one track mind!


Posted By: Joker
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 12:34pm
We definitely did it. 14' telescopic outriggers and twin dredge booms.


Posted By: SufixRockMan
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 3:13pm
I've taken my Fyran 440 over the Hokianga Bar and all over the Hauraki Gulf already. I'm super conscious about the weather etc but so far I've been impressed enough to keep it around


Posted By: rowboat bob
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 5:54pm
Yeah Like Joker said the hull doesn't know those air chambers on a pontoon boat are sealed, it's the hull shape that counts , but seeing those sealed pontoons makes us feel safe. I had a Senator 520 ( really a 4.8m with a 400mm pod for the motor ) with a Yammy 90, Great boat in the surf and felt safe in any weather , I took it out in 45 knots of wind when I first got it just to check it out. BUT HELLISHLY HARD RIDE as soon as it chops up even 15kn or so. Got an old heavy glass Marlborough 520 now , better in all ways than the Senator except beach launching.


Posted By: donny18
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 10:30am
My thoughts on self draining decks is that they aid in draining water if the boat is moving at a decent clip, and if your moving at a decent clip in most cases the water coming on board will be minimal because of the very conditions that allow you to travel faster. On a trailer boat they are a bit hit and miss as a lot i've seen are literally only a couple of inches above the waterline if lucky, and then if you have 3 or 4 blokes fishing down the back they fish in puddles all day as the boat moves at anchor or drifting.  If you were unlucky enough to get a decent amount of water/weight on the deck they would be submerged, combined with a higher cog the boat may very well be more likely to roll than a boat with a lower cog. On a trailer boat i think (personal opinion) they are a bit of a gimmick in a lot of cases. If they were installed like on a fishing boat with a **** load of freeboard and cutouts all down the hull then that would great, however in a trailer boat that isn't an option in most cases.


Posted By: clank
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 7:07pm
My opinion is 5mtr boats are not off shore or even semi offshore boats. Even the manufactures admit that. Without a lot of experience you are asking for trouble. That's why most fatalities are in boats under 6 mtrs.

Experience will help you understand the weather and conditions you might meet out there. Sorry, you didnt want to bring the weather in to it but which brand of 'in shore' size boat you choose to go 'off shore' is the irreverent thing.

I wouldn't go off shore in a 5 mtr or under boat unless it was forecast variable 5 knots the day before and at least two days after and even then I would be having a good hard look at the weather situation.

Depends what people call off shore of course?


Posted By: :Hunter:
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 10:14pm
Been offshore a lot in my old Surtees 4.85, out as far as the 155 out the back of the Mokes and numerous trips over the Manukau gamefishing, never had any issues. So long as you know what you are doing the boat can handle it fine.


Posted By: rowboat bob
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 10:40pm
There are 5 m boats and 5m boats . I wouldn't go 25 of miles off the west coast in an old riveted 5m Fyran Rebel with a 70hp Evenrude on the back but I used to do that in my Senator 520 and Yammy 90 or now in my done up 5.2 Marlborough with a new 115hp.
No Problem in either of these rigs and countless like them. Weather forecasting is pretty good now with Swellmap being excellent. I don't go off the West Coast in anything but a 1.5m and dropping swell , whereas countless bigger boats seem to go out in 2 to 2.5m swells . There was a new 6.7m Rayglass with a 250hp rolled on the Manukau Bar last year in 2.5 to 3m swells . I can't remember if there was loss of life  but there was another similar sized boat rolled a few years ago in the Manukau North channel with loss of life and I remember they were trying to return in 2.5m swells on the outgoing tide. What can happen on these 6m plus hardtops is they start to trust a little to much in the boat. An understanding of the sea and an ability to interpret a forecast is as important as a late model motor, good electrical system and a sound hull.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 8:40am
Off shore small boat...

Motor / boat gear all in top condition.. know it is not think it is.
Well powered for hull performance, chop and bar crossings.
 And if dont understand winds, iso bar bars, current wind direction, tides, wave /chop heights AND periods... 
regardless of the boat dont go.

 Understand the limitations of the Coast Guard


Posted By: peeda
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 3:04pm
Some good comments here so far. As for sub 5m boats going offshore, I have game fished off a 495 surtees over the manukau bar and I've been out to the back of the mokes in one. 

I also have taken out my old 4.2m thundercat with a 50hp strapped to the back over the manukau bar in some rough conditions. However in saying that, the thundercat DID make the 6-7m boats I was cruising past over the bar look silly. 




Posted By: clank
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 9:33pm
Just for clarity, in my mention of sub-5mtr boats I made no mention of bar crossing. I'm sure any size boat can get in trouble on a bar, so a properly set up reliable rig and good skipper probably counts more than size.

I was talking about off shore. I.E. significant travel TIME to shelter in open water. Not sure why why some are referencing it as the same thing as a bar crossing?

Over and above the weather forecast is the weather situation. You would be naive to think there is more than a few days a year that don't come with a potential of turning nasty off shore, so luck is getting most people home.

You can't shrug off the statistics, its under 6mtr boats that most fatalities occur and most from sea the boat or how it's used can't cope with.


Posted By: rowboat bob
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 10:46pm
Hi Clank , I brought up the bar crossing because if the rig can handle bar crossing it should be good enough for offshore. If you wouldn't cross a bar with it don't take it offshore. As far as the stats go , there are probably a lot more old and poorly maintained boats in the sub 6m than the over 6m category. A quality 5m boat with a late model engine is a capable offshore boat.


Posted By: clank
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 11:27pm
Hi rowboat bob,

I still have to disagree, I think the bar is about getting it right or getting it wrong. The most sea worthy boats could roll over if the skipper got it wrong. Similarly, a rubbish sea boat will be able to follow a swell in if the skipper gets it right and motor keeps running. I don't think a bar crossing is a measure of an off shore boat. The bar is dangerous for any boat.

Coming home from out wide and say two hours + in a small boat taking on water with every wave (wind wave, not swell you can follow) and then size matters. Coming back from out wide means a lot more time for something to go wrong and a 5mtr boat bobbing around will shrink fast when something does go wrong.

I've owned a 5 mtr boat in the past and I would want at least a three day window before I went out wide.


Posted By: SufixRockMan
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 6:00am
I'm still interested in what constitutes out wide? Anchorite or Little Barrier from Sandspit?


Posted By: rowboat bob
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 8:04am
Hi Clank , I only said that a bar capable boat SHOULD be ok for offshore . Also as I said earlier there are 5m boats and 5m boats . Quite variable in their sea keeping capabilities.  Just out of interest what was your 5m boat and what were it's shortcomings ? ( apart from length )


Posted By: huntfish
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 8:58am
Hi Clank, as always there are so many differing opinions and answers which is to be expected. I have a Frewza F16 with a 90 4s and regularly do trips in open water of up to 160km. I boat around Marlborough and the Cook Strait which you may or may not have any idea where that is but believe me the seas can be very nasty. I have total confidence in this rig and have never taken any water over the bow regardless of the sea state. It is very sea worthy if driven to the conditions and if you have done your homework before leaving port re conditions. I have an 80lt u/f tank which helps considerably with weight distribution and also aids handling, it also provides confidence in knowing I will not run out of fuel, it averages 10ltrs an hour at 22knts, a big trip will use just over half a tank with motor never being turned off after leaving ramp until we get back to ramp at end of trip so it is going for 8-9 hrs usually.
I very rarely need to stand to drive as it rides so well, I regularly fish among 6-9m trailer boats and often get strange looks but I have not been in a situation yet that has had me worried for my safety, it out performs it's size in my opinion.
It does not pound at all and is extremely stable when fishing. I agree with the people who mention the stability and buoyancy comes from hull shape not the pontoon itself, the thing some people don't mention is that if you look at the hull shape from behind, a conventional hull will have similar chines but often the sides go straight up from there or with a slight curve whereas a pontoon from behind has a more rounded chine / side profile which I believe helps the stability even more as it displaces more water when at rest. My boat hardly moves with 2 men on one side netting a fish, some boats with deep vee's and wide chines of a similar size will heel over in the same situation because of the chine / side profile relationship in my opinion. If you are hoping the pontoons keep you afloat when full I think you have got into a very bad situation and any boat full of water means you've had a disaster and life proper jackets are more appropriate. Water shouldn't be coming into a boat.
Long story to say that there are boats of this size that can handle what you are wanting to do.
Of course people will also disagree with me and the "frewza" brigade, but to me real life experience counts for more than theory and numbers and for this I stand by the above 100% as I have physically experienced it myself. I will add I have spent thousands of hours over my 53 years on boats of different sizes and shapes as well I did a stint selling boats which included new Rayglass, HH, Stabicraft, CSB as well as s/h rigs so I have some basis to my findings, not saying I am right but not a total green horn either.
Apologies for the essay....


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 9:03am
fatalities occur
 careful when interpreting stats.. politicans are masters at it
and what were it' For example with more fatailties in under 6m boats couild just mean more 6m boats and /or more ppl in under 6m boats.
A comparison could be made on that basis that cars are more dangerous than motor bikes simply because more ppl have fatalities in in cars..
 A issue I have been looking at recently is thew relationship between plaining boat length/ weight and how well powered in bar accidents.
To date it seems underpowered even min powered boats run into more accidents issues than well powered.. reason possibly be as example, is that a bad call not watching sets (freak wave) type situation, a well powered boat can accelerate very quick, across in front of next wave to to a better position of the next braking wave.
 Have observed this sort of thing couple times on manukau / waikato bars now.. boats heading out before and after us. 1 a 7m boat behind us, we climbed a huge unexpected, next bigger, the 7m went acroos, just see the tip of the mast, we where getting ready to radio in / rescue. Would not have made the wave behind us, and if did not have the power, would have been rolled.
The thing on a bar, a low swell long period has waves stand up, out at sea nice rolling swell. A small swell short period , small bar waves, out at sea a crappy more 'chop'.
 And how a smaller boat (any boat) handles chop swells is about weight/ power ratios more than length. classic example is how surf life savers can whizz around.


Posted By: MikeAqua
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 9:24am
The biggest common factor in fatalities last time I looked at boating fatality stats was: No Lifejacket

Going offshore: wear your Censored lifejacket, preferably with a PLB (w integral GPS) securely attached to it.

Even better have a charged, handheld VHF attached to your life jacket .  A compact strobe light won't hurt either (mine came free with my PLB).  All IPx7 or better.

No guarantees, but a lifejacket and a GPS-PLB give you a chance of being found before hypothermia sets in.  The VHF and strobe may come in handy if rescuers are close but having trouble finding you.



Posted By: clank
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by SufixRockMan SufixRockMan wrote:

I'm still interested in what constitutes out wide? Anchorite or Little Barrier from Sandspit?


Hi SuffixRockMan,

I wasn't meaning Anchorite or Little Barrier as being out wide. Many 5 mtr boats are out there no problem.


Posted By: ffocus
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 5:52am
Originally posted by peeda peeda wrote:

Some good comments here so far. As for sub 5m boats going offshore, I have game fished off a 495 surtees over the manukau bar and I've been out to the back of the mokes in one. 

I also have taken out my old 4.2m thundercat with a 50hp strapped to the back over the manukau bar in some rough conditions. However in saying that, the thundercat DID make the 6-7m boats I was cruising past over the bar look silly. 



I second that, i have a slightly bigger thundercat which i use to get pretty much anywhere.......so stable and the water just falls straight back out the stern. Do get some funny looks from the big flash boats at times......


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 6:10am
You can take any vessel anywhere when conditions are right,the trick is to keep an eye on the weather and have the means to run for shelter fast.

We all most swamped a 10ft parker craft in 4 m of water between kkb ramp and the island (mcCallums?)no wind sunny day,noticed black clouds coming from the west,next minute 20knts westerly waves up all within 1/2k of the ramp,10 minutes later suns out no wind.

The way the day started (1st 3 hrs)you could of gone across the firth,why take the risk,get the right vessel for your requirements and competence of vessel handling,why become another statistic?

Never made a bar crossing,no inclination to ever do so.


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 8:29am
You can take any vessel anywhere when conditions are right
 Yep
 Again comes down to abiity to undersatand weather maps, iso bar lines, predictions, even cloud formations on the day.

Anyone read  "old Manand the Sea"  Monsarrat the author from memory.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 9:00am
Earnest Hemingway, Thats what we use to refer Dad too.

a good winter days watch

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5l9ra6" rel="nofollow - www.dailymotion.com/video/x5l9ra6


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: rowboat bob
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 9:10am
Ernest Hemingway wrote Old Man and the Sea. Used to be a school curriculum book. He'd spent some time at sea! I remember being becalmed in Tamaki Strait trying to sail home. It was clear blue skies without a cloud in the sky. Ahead I saw a ruffle line on the water which turned out to be 25kn. This then rose to 30kn for the rest of the afternoon. The more time you spend at sea the more strange things you see.


Posted By: MikeAqua
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 4:37pm
Ernest Hemingway also wrote: -

"One time in Africa we lost the corkscrew and had to survive on food and water for weeks"


Posted By: clank
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 11:33pm




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