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The Tongariro Roll Cast

Printed From: The Fishing Website
Category: Freshwater Fishing
Forum Name: Freshwater Fission
Forum Description: The place to discuss all matters related to freshwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21288
Printed Date: 20 May 2022 at 4:34am


Topic: The Tongariro Roll Cast
Posted By: Pole Dancer
Subject: The Tongariro Roll Cast
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2007 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Hi Chris
First time for me too and quite frankly I was gob smacked by the power of the INTERNET.   
 
Since these articles I have written two more on the TRC, which the Fishing News considers too technical.   As I am contracted to this mag I can not have them published out side the Fairfax stable.    I shall give them to the DOC guys for the Target Taupo mag but other than that these article would never see the printing press.
 
Would not bother me with any other material but these two are too valuable to fester away on my hard drive out of reach from the anglers who could benefit from them.   So I might as well stick them on the Fishing Web.
 
The Trouble Shooting one is self explanatory while the D-Loop article still needs diagrams.
 
I hope you guys enjoy them.
 
Cheers Rainbow 
 

28 March 2005

 

The Editor

NZ Fishing News

PO Box 12965

Penrose

Auckland

 

Troubleshooting the Tongariro Roll Cast

By Herb Spannagl

 

All through last winter I have had countless people come up to me and express anything from curiosity to downright determination to learn the Tongariro Roll Cast.   On more than one occasion I have had a video camera pointed at me from behind bushes.   Such has been the interest that at the risk of a bit of self-delusion I strongly suspect most Tongariro anglers would love to master this elegant cast.   

 

Those who have tried it will have very quickly found out that what looks effortless and elegant when performed well is anything but, when you start off or are someway along the frustrating road to perfection.   Although my two previous articles about the TRC have been liberally peppered with diagrams, several club instruction days have shown me that what appeared to me quite logical, failed to make a meaningful connection with many of my pupils.     

 

There is an easy explanation for this.   During the overhead cast the rod tip moves backwards and forwards along a straight track and in a single plane.   Most beginners can grasp those two requirements.    With the TRC the rod tip goes all over the place and at different speeds while it executes several distinctive manoeuvres.   Trying to memorise these movements and to link them with precision timing and measured force quickly scrambles a beginner’s mind.    The initial effort is such a guaranteed mess that only the doggedly determined continue with the self-punishment.   

 

Looking back at my own painful beginnings I must say that whatever mastery of overhead casting I possessed was barely helpful while learning the TRC.    I would go as far as calling it unhelpful, because I constantly got tempted to revert back to overhead casting when I should have boxed on.    So instead forcing myself to put in the requisite on stream hard yards to learn to cope with varying conditions I slipped back to what I knew best.   A good friend of mine suffers from the same dilemma, which has definitely slowed down his progress.

  

It might be old hat but in my view people don’t succeed with the TRC because:

  • They are too self conscious to seek help
  • They do not systematically practice the basics
  • They fail to commit to using this cast for on stream fishing

 

Regarding the last point I have now become firmly convinced that once the basic technique has been learned during the initial practice further progress can only be achieved through on stream fishing.    The reason for this unconventional advice is that this cast totally relies on the caster to make the necessary anchorage calculations for the variable casting situations prior to each cast in order to adjust the final delivery-casting stroke.    

 

However, despite all the best efforts most beginners and intermediates will be dogged by “mystery” problems, which make the end result less than satisfactory.   Let me highlight some of the more obvious ones and suggest appropriate remedies.

 

Forward Cast Collapses 

Cause:   The most common reason is a premature start of the forward cast.    Not all loose line lying on the water has bellied into the D-Loop.   Removing the remaining slack wastes a great part of the forward stroke (which is shorter than in an overhead cast) and this fails to load the rod.   

Remedy: Watch for the indicator to move towards you before you start the forward cast.   This is the sign that the D-Loop has fully bellied out behind you and that the rod will load on the forward stroke.

 

D-Loop Sticking To The Water

Cause a):  D-Loop formed with same slow speed.  

Remedy:   Form a dynamic D-Loop by accelerating the slack line on the water rearwards and upwards.

Cause b):  Waiting too long with the forward cast which causes too much of the lower leg of the D-Loop to make contact with the water.   

Remedy:   Start forward cast as soon as the indicator moves towards you.

Cause c):  Anchor planted too far out.

Remedy: Either pull anchor closer or apply more power and/or execute the cast with a higher rod stroke, which lifts more D-Loop line off the water at the start of the forward cast.

 

Anchor Not Lifting Out Of The Water

Cause a):  The most obvious is that not enough power has been applied to the forward cast for the variable amount of anchorage.

Remedies: Apply more power, reduce anchorage by either pulling anchor closer or reduce the size and/or weight of fly.

Cause b): The forward cast has been conducted with an arching rod stroke ending in a descending rod tip.   In other words the energy has been directed downwards.

Remedy:   Execute the forward cast with a rising rod tip.

 

Forward Casting Loop Too Open

Cause:  Forward cast has been directed downwards with descending rod tip.

Remedy: Accelerate with rising rod tip and stop rod at 11o’clock.

 

D-Loop Hitting Body

Cause: Wind blowing line towards the casting hand.

Remedy:  Reach downwind across the body during the forward cast.

 

D-Loop Not Forming Fully In A Tailwind

Cause: Insufficient force applied during D-Loop formation has partly concertinaed the D-Loop.   A vertical D-Loop is also more exposed to the brunt of the wind.

Remedies:   Apply extra force and form D-Loop low and more horizontally to get under the wind.

 

Fly Hitting Rod and Angler

Cause: Anchor is placed inside of the rod tip.

Remedy:  Always place anchor and line outside of rod tip when fishing upstream.    In a fast current the anchor must be planted well outside to allow for the drift while executing line slipping and D-loop forming.

 

Indicator Popping

Causes: Anchor did not hold due to insufficient anchorage, forward cast on too high a plane and/or too much force applied on the forward cast.

Remedies:  Leave more line on the water when planting anchor (Don’t pull indicator so close).   Drop power back or conduct forward cast with a low rod stroke with the elbow moving just above hip level, which also leave more line in contact with the water.

 

Line Runs Along The Water Or Collapses During Forward Cast

Cause:   Trashing forward cast downwards.

Remedy:  Stop rising rod tip at 11o’clock.

 

Low And Tired D-Loop

Cause:   Dropping the rod tip during backstroke D-Loop formation.

Remedy:   Finish with a rising rod tip towards the 1 O’clock forward cast launching position.

 

Poor Distance

Cause a):  The most prominent one is a shallow and non-energetic D-Loop.   

Remedy:  Apply more power back and up and then wait for the D-Loop to fully form.  Best sign is indicator moving towards you.   

Cause b):  With short belly lines some thin running line is outside the tip ring during D-Loop formation.   This thin line has insufficient mass to adequately transfer the rod energy to the line.

Remedy:   Make sure that some of the belly of the line is still inside the tip ring before firing.   This is easier with “Long Belly lines”.   

  

Leader Not Turning Over

Cause: Not enough power to finish the forward cast.

Remedy: Not needed as this “fault” produces a slack leader, which allows the nymphs to sink quickly.   Many overhead casters would “kill” for this.

 

Line And Leader Tangles

Cause:   D-loop is not 180 degrees opposite the target.

Remedy:   Plant indicator (anchor) sufficiently upstream so that it has time to drift into a position as near as possible to be in a straight line with the D-Loop and slightly upstream of the target.    This gives you time to slip line and generate the D-Loop.

 

By stating the above line-up of problems, many of which you probably did not even know existed, I am running the risk of frightening you off learning the TRC.    This is not the purpose of this article.    Use it as an aid to remedy only the problems you have as you progress.    Chances are you will only have one or two at a time and as you solve these others will often remedy themselves.     In a future article I shall discuss the finer details of the D-Loop and why anchorage is so variable.    
 

30 April 2007

 

The Editor

NZ Fishing News

PO Box 12 965

Penrose

Auckland

 

FINE TUNING THE TONGARIRO ROLL CAST

(The Importance of the D-loop)

Herb Spannagl

 

This article would not have been possible without extensive reference to Dana Sturn’s important research work (speypages.com) on the dynamics of the D-Loop as used in Spey casting.   I am hugely indebted to Dana not only for his dedicated promotion of Spey casting but also for the generous help and inspiration he has so freely given to me.

 

If you have been lucky enough to have seen a good Tongariro Roll Cast on the water chances are the thing that impressed you most was the distance the caster achieved and the ease with which it was done.    When watching this cast all eyes are on what happens in front of the caster, even the caster’s own eyes are focussed in this direction.    Yet the most important prerequisite for such an impressive forward cast happens behind the caster’s back.    It is the formation of the D-loop that is the equivalent of the back cast in the conventional overhead cast.  

 

You may be familiar with the time tested fly casting tenet that without a good back cast it is impossible to make a good forward cast.    The same rule applies to roll or Spey casting where the important functions of the conventional back cast are carried out by the D-loop.   In fact chances are that if something has gone wrong with the forward cast the problems can often be traced back to a poorly managed D-loop.

 

So why is a well-formed D-loop so important?

  • It provides the dynamic resistance or line momentum against which to load the rod.  
  • Its alignment signals the direction of the forward cast.
  • Its position in relation to the rod tip track largely determines the shape of the forward casting loop.

 

Lets see in more detail what these points actually mean.  

  • Because gravity never sleeps the conventional back cast and the D-loop need to be dynamic, in other words they need to be energised in order to stay aloft.   Since the caster projects this line energy rearward it provides resistance when he/she tries to move the line forward.   This resistance is absorbed and stored by the flexible fly rod as a bend and given up when straightening on the forward delivery.    Up to a point, the deeper and livelier the D-loop the more effortless the forward cast will be.
  • The most efficient forward cast has its preceding back cast moving along a single straight track even though both move in opposite directions.   The ideal separation is 180 degrees.    The same principle applies to the D-loop.   It too has to be 180 degrees opposite the delivery cast for maximum efficiency.    In the Tongariro Roll Cast the direction of the forward cast is largely determined by the directional placement of the anchor against which the caster lines up the D-loop, ideally in the same straight line.    This D-loop alignment is made infinitely easier if the caster turns to face the direction of the anchor placement in order to move the rod along the same plane as the straight fly line extending from the indicator.    The D-loop then follows where the rod tip goes.   During this set-up manoeuvre a smart caster allows some lead margin to compensate for any oncoming drift.
  • With the Tongariro Roll Cast the size or depth of the D-loop is directly governed by how much slack line has been slipped onto the water surface during line folding and by how much of that line can be kept aloft in the D-loop.  Whilst you can slip a large amount of line onto the water surface by repeated slipping, there is only so much that can be converted into an energetic D-loop.
  • To transform all of this slack line into an airborne D-loop requires force, which is applied by a rearward and upward moving rod tip.   (See diagrams for D and V-loops).   These diagrams show that a round upward stroke produces a round D-loop while a straighter rising stroke creates a more desirable V-loop.
  • The shape and in particular the position of the D-loop also governs the shape of the forward casting loop.    As a general rule the more dynamic the D-loop is the deeper it can be formed without “grounding” onto the water surface.   Although the D-loop takes its name from the letter D, this is not a good example, since a very dynamic loop, we all strive to create, resembles a V on its side.     The deeper this line V is, the more momentum it has and the more resistance it provides for rod loading.    This leaves the placement or tilt of the V for consideration.    The narrowest forward loops are achieved when the tip of the V is closest of the straight track of the rod tip during the forward casting stroke.    To achieve that placement the D-loop has to be projected not only rearwards but also upwards.   On the other hand a low V-point has to be pulled up onto the rod tip track by the rod tip, which wastes energy and inevitably produces a round and open forward loop.     As the accompanying photo shows, prior to rod loading when the rod is straight and near the one o’clock starting position the top leg of the V may look somewhat steep.     However, this leg will flatten out as the rod shortens during loading.    Good casters also lower the rod butt during the first half of the casting stroke but raise it thereafter (Swoop) in order to ensure that the rod tip tracks on as straight a path as possible.     

 

The anchor forms the open end of the lower leg of the V while the rod tip connects the upper leg.   In the previous paragraphs I emphasised the importance of angle of the upper leg now we need to look more closely at its lower equivalent.    Generally speaking with the Tongariro Roll Cast the terminal rig and the large indicator provide enough anchorage to allow the formation of a large V-loop without the anchor failing to hold.  This then allows the lower leg of the V-loop to completely lift from the water surface during loop formation and rod loading.    When this happens only a small portion of the casting energy is needed to lift the anchor, the rest is used to propel the line.   

 

The reverse happens when some of the lower leg remains in contact with the water.   Lifting it prior to pulling the anchor robs so much casting energy that in severe cases the anchor does not come out at all or limply lifts but collapses in a heap of lose line soon after.   The salient point in this discussion is that anchorage is infinitely variable and needs to be assessed when stetting up for every cast.   Too little and the anchor wont hold, too much and distance will be shortened.   Only time on the water under a variety of fishing conditions can Picture is by Kim Turia   provide the experience to make the right assessments.  

 

Come to think of it, anchorage is such a complex issue that it really deserves an article of its own.    In the meantime work on changing your round and listless D-loop into a sharply pointed, sizzling V shape to get those “rat snout” looking forward loops.  

 
This picture by Kim Turia shows a vey sharp, deep and above all dynamic V-loop formation.   Note how the lower V leg has been lifted completely off the water.  Now the rod can be loaded against the loop's rearward momentum with a forward stroke and a simultaneous left hand haul . 
 



Replies:
Posted By: mike555
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2007 at 12:04pm
I note you reccomend the Rio Accelerator line. I need a new line as old one is now a sinker so good timing to buy a new one that is good for roll casting.
Will this line work well for overhead casting as well?
I reckon I am only 40/60 roll cast vs overhead cast. My priority is usability and float for mending but want to be able to do both casts.


Posted By: Barbary B
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2007 at 1:04pm

Herb - any thoughts on the Maori roll cast? I have watched in awe at some of the effortless roll casting practised by the local people around the Waiatanuhi and Hinemaiaia rivers. Often with old fibreglass rods! They just seem to pick the line up from down river and send a rolling loop across the surface of the river in one easy motion.



-------------
"Look ahead, look astern, look to weather, look to lea
Look down along the coast of High Barbary..."


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2007 at 2:33pm
Have not seen the Maori Roll Cast as practiced there.    From what you describe it sounds like a sort of dynamic roll more like a Switch Cast.   Neither of these rivers are very wide so can probably be covered with the standard roll.    I fish neither very much; the Hine because of the snags and the Waitahanui because of the local tangata whenua who have discovered that "might is right".    I go fishing to have fun not egro.
 
Re Rio Accelerator line.   I have no experience with any Rio lines so cant comment on this one.    I always use long belly lines as these allow longer distance mending which to me is more important than a few more meters of distance.   LBLs are also quite good for roll casting and overhead casting with weight.   
 
Rainbow 


Posted By: Pole Dancer
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2007 at 11:12pm

That is essentially what it is Herb... Barbary... it's not a hard cast to master... study some of the Spey and TRC info and take note of the info regarding forming the D loop and anchor... that's the point they raise the rod and make their next upstream pitch. Herb is right... its best suited ot close work and in their case... when fishing to a short drift area.



-------------
http://www.clarkreid.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.clarkreid.co.nz    FFF Certified Casting Instructor / Umpqua Designer Tier


Posted By: Tore
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2007 at 2:45pm
I think the best way to learn this is to learn the basics of the "modern" speycast first. From what I can see there is nothing new about this cast, just a few well known techniques mixed together.
Basically, again from what I can see from the clips, part one is to get the heavy nymphs to the surface. Part two is a basic modern spey cast (also called switch cast or underhand cast), and to do this before the nymphs sinks again.
 
To me it's a perfect example of how you can adapt to the situation if your arsenal of basic techniques is well maintained. Well done, Herb!!
This clip shows another range of examples of the same thing: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QhDavr24xA - http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QhDavr24xA


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2007 at 11:25pm
Between that and another trick castng clip Tore, Ive messed up dozens of leaders and endured countless tangles trying t emulate them. Impressive stuff!
 
Chris


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2007 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Basically, again from what I can see from the clips, part one is to get the heavy nymphs to the surface. Part two is a basic modern spey cast (also called switch cast or underhand cast), and to do this before the nymphs sinks again.
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QhDavr24xA -  
 
Hi Tore
 
The sole purpose of the set-up prior to forming the D-Loop is to lay the line and leader out in the direction of the new target.    Nothing to do with lifting the heavy nymphs.    They sink to the bottom and stay there until they are lifted by the forward cast, which is (like in all Spey casting) the standard Switch cast.
 
I draw a distinction between fishing casts and what I call circus casts.   The latter http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QhDavr24xA - http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QhDavr24xA  are very impressive for the impressionable and are usually seen at Game Fairs etc. to entertain/baffle the onlookers.     Most of them have little relevance to practical fishing at least not for our style of upstream fishing.    The best that can be said about these casting acrobats is that they have a wonderful control of their tackle.
 
By contrast the TRC is a true fishing cast that fits perfectly into our fishing scene.
 
Rainbow
 


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2007 at 8:13pm
I have tried many lines for the TRC, including the lightest Spey lines.   These perform well but are a little too thick, too heavy and just a little too awkward.   For the last two years I have used an 8# XXD from SA on my CD ICT test rod and found it a quite good line not only to cast but also for long distance mending.    I recommended it to my mate Bill who duly bought a #9 in Turangi.    Amazing what difference one line weight can make.    Even though he used it on an #8 rod the casting results were remarkable.
 
The next day I went to the same shop to buy a #9 XXD but they only had lesser weights.    Just before I was leaving the owner remembered that he had taken one off a reel the same day a customer bought it but did not like it.
 
This brand new line was now 2nd hand knocked down to $50.    A lucky break but the the really joy came when I cast it .   This line and in this weight is the all time best line I have used for the TRC.  The 62' head drives heavy bombs with authority and depending on the wind mends a cast almost at the same distance.
 
Unfortunately this was the last and by far the best day of a fairly tough week.   After an early  casting session with Chappie Chapman from the  Mainland I finished the trip at a windless and sun drenched the Hydro Pool literally floating on cloud nine.   My word, there is much more to fly fishing than just catching fish.
 
25 more sleeps before I am back there in July.
 
Rainbow
 
 


Posted By: Tore
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2007 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Basically, again from what I can see from the clips, part one is to get the heavy nymphs to the surface. Part two is a basic modern spey cast (also called switch cast or underhand cast), and to do this before the nymphs sinks again.
 
 
Hi Tore
 
The sole purpose of the set-up prior to forming the D-Loop is to lay the line and leader out in the direction of the new target.    Nothing to do with lifting the heavy nymphs.    They sink to the bottom and stay there until they are lifted by the forward cast, which is (like in all Spey casting) the standard Switch cast.
 
I draw a distinction between fishing casts and what I call circus casts.   The latter http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QhDavr24xA - http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QhDavr24xA  are very impressive for the impressionable and are usually seen at Game Fairs etc. to entertain/baffle the onlookers.     Most of them have little relevance to practical fishing at least not for our style of upstream fishing.    The best that can be said about these casting acrobats is that they have a wonderful control of their tackle.
 
By contrast the TRC is a true fishing cast that fits perfectly into our fishing scene.
 
Rainbow
 
 
Herb, I agree on the 'circus' bit, but I think these guys would outfish both of us on any salmon river. It's just a demonstration of what you can do if you master the basics. The guy who pretty much started it all (Göran Andersson) is always to find at the top of the catch stats.
 
But my point is that if you handle the basics behind a modern speycast (the traditional spey is something completely different), you probably won't need lessons to perform the "TRC".
 
By your reply it sounds like the weight of the nymphs is irrelevant?? If that's the case (which I don't think it is), wouldn't you be just as well off with a basic modern speycast or reverse spey, depending on current direction? (lift off - swing/back cast - forward cast)?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=z1Z_ZPc_3FQ - http://youtube.com/watch?v=z1Z_ZPc_3FQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWIhoGw5FdY&NR=1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWIhoGw5FdY&NR=1
 
It's interesting what you say about the XXD, which is made for long overhead casts. Normally a "delta" tapered line is favoured with switch casting, because you'll have the heaviest section of the line close to your tip top prior to the forward cast. I take it you shoot the line long before the whole belly is "exposed"?
 
Would you mind sending me a PM with your details? I would love to discuss ideas and play around with a few casts next time I'm down there.
 
Cheers  


Posted By: Nicko
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2007 at 1:44am
Iv tryed just about every line for the TRC and the best by far is the Airflo Ridgeline but its not just the line its the nut behind the but


Posted By: Manic
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2008 at 10:40am
Hi Rainbow
 
Have you worked on altering your leaders in order to create a more efficient cast? Secondly what about indicators.....I'm stuck on what to do with indicators next.
 
Manic


Posted By: HareNcopA
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2008 at 11:20am
hey manic,
 
you might have to PM rainbow - I think he got a bee in his bonnet about something a while back and hasnt been posting in here. I think he floats about in the kayak fishing section


-------------
Behind every good fisherman is a lonely woman


Posted By: Anglers Anonymous
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2008 at 11:01pm
Hi Manic
 
Am guessing Rainbow sets  his leader as required to fish the water, i.e. heavier and longer for deeper and faster water. Smaller indicaters obviously are better - they are indicators not floats. There are a couple of good ways of hitching indicators in. First don't buy the silly ones in the shops in New Zealand with the metal clips. I think Rainbow published an article a few years ago showing how to use a small piece of plastic tubing like the inside of a Bic pen cut to about 5 mm's. A suitable distance away from the end of your fly line on your leader bend the leader in half and push it though the tubing and then out the otherside so that you have a loop which you use to pull through a bit of suitable yarn like polyester rovings I think he called it or glow-bug yarn previously soaked in water proofing spray. Personally I just hitch in a bit of yarn in the way Chappie Chapmans booking "Dancing Rivers" describes. The yarn should be the smallest size that you can just see and hopefully float. Not like casting a budgie on the end of your line like a lot of other Tongariro fishermen.
 
Just reading through previous posts also noticed someone mentioning Rio Accelerator. It works well. Personally I have had floating issues with XXD's which perform well with the TRC. Find Cortland 444SL's fantastic till they crack after a month. Hate Airflow ridgelines in all aspects. The new Sharkskins appear to work well but havn't tried in a Tongariro weight yet. Havn't tried any special spey lines but would guess they might work well for TRC but may be a little awkward for overhead casting.


Posted By: Manic
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 12:35pm
Thanks Andrew for the breakdown. I personally fish the ridgelines, but prefer the new Delta tapers to the original products. Totally agree with comments re. the buoyancy of the XXD and cortland cracking issues. I haven't fished the Accelerator single hand, just the original accelerator spey lines which are a little too long in the head for my preferences with a double hander.
 
Also agree with your point re. Spey lines being akward for overhead casting. I find the come through too low when overhead casting, but if balanced well are fun for roll casts on a single handed rod.
 
Is anyone fishing braid or other spectra's in their leaders in big water?


Posted By: Snuffit.
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 12:51pm
...whole 'nutha thread about it Rene, see:
 
http://www.fishing.net.nz/asp_forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=21104&KW=drop+shot+nymphing - http://www.fishing.net.nz/asp_forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=21104&KW=drop+shot+nymphing


Posted By: Barbary B
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 1:32pm
Yup. Always start the day the spectra way now.

-------------
"Look ahead, look astern, look to weather, look to lea
Look down along the coast of High Barbary..."


Posted By: Anglers Anonymous
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 4:00pm
Hi Manic
 
Didn't realize who you were before when I tried to help with indicators - assumed you were typical Tongariro fisherman who needed help and couldn't get Rainbow to respond. Obviously you already know how to hitch in indicators and don't use the clip on ones. What was the deeper nature of your indicator queory - I probably can't help but am interested anyway? Do you have a superior technique or material?
 
Was unaware of the delta taper but not just the balance of the ridgelines that I had been unhappy with but also the bouyancy - always trying to find the best comprimise between balance, buoyancy and durability. Could be that I am rather lazy and hardly ever clean my lines and I think the ridgelines seem  to collect a little pumice. Have you tried the Sharkskins yet for both spey and overhead?
 
Will start experimenting with braid this year. Was it yourself or someone else that wrote an article in one of the magazines last year on it - may have been F & G? Fished with a guy on the Tonga last year who was using fireline successfully with only one small tangle for the day. Am hoping that the thinner diameter will mean less weight needed in the flies and make life easier.


Posted By: Manic
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 4:03pm
Thanks Nick, I'm new to the forum so hadn't seen the other thread so appreciate the link.
 
What types and weights of braid are you using Barnaby B?
 
The Drop Shot Article certainly wasn't aiming to lay claim to everyones already existing idea's on split shot and using braid. However I'm keen to hear how others have improved on my thoughts.
 
I know a number of anglers who are using braid for short line nymphing and see RIO have added braid to their range of tippet materials in the US.


Posted By: Barbary B
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 5:34pm

Using 8lb braid - dark green colour tied to tiny barrel swivel, one or two shots clamped above the swivel, then 30 cms 8 or 6 lb flouro onto one or two weighted nymphs. Ususally fish the Hinemaiaia with one nymph and the TT with two. I think the brand of braid was Powerplay from memory - but will check. 

Powerplay is very stiff from a casting perspective- which I like. One thing I have improved on from early attempts is making up the complete rig and storing it in a flasher rig case (couple of bucks from rebel sport) , then attaching the whole lot to the loop on the flyline when at the river. Makes for a quick changeover if light/clarity demands it. I have found though that unless its a brilliant sunny day - you can get away with the braid.
 
Have thought of trying red or pink braid to see if it makes any difference.


-------------
"Look ahead, look astern, look to weather, look to lea
Look down along the coast of High Barbary..."


Posted By: Manic
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2008 at 8:32am
cool. I originally didn't like a stiff spectra ie fireline. but after falling in love with teh stuff for my SP fishing, I'm heading back that way. The 4lb or 6lb Fireline is uber strong.
 
Powerpro is a great product, so sounds like you've got it nailed.
 
I'm sure in coloured water the bright braid would be fine. However there is no advantage to it as it's under you're indicator.
 
Have you tried the small stainless rings instead of the swivel?


Posted By: Barbary B
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2008 at 10:56am

Havent tried the stainless rings, did use those tiny little micro rings but kept losing the little buggars. I quite like the swivels as they are very streamlined and also the come in black which I also like.



-------------
"Look ahead, look astern, look to weather, look to lea
Look down along the coast of High Barbary..."


Posted By: Manic
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2008 at 9:36am
Hi Andrew
 
I appreciated your comments on indicators. Actually I probably do the same as everyone else....but that is half of the problem. There must be some better ways, with indicators that cast and float better.
 
So no need to appologise for the feedback. I did write the article on drop shot nymphing last year. Although as I mentioned there are still plenty of things that can be improved.
The funny thing is after i wrote the article i thought I would try a new braid, i got so many tangles I ended up switching back to mono. When it's not working, it can be soo frustrating.
 
Anyway I've moving back towards the fireline. I think the primary benefit is the non stretch and the low diameter to mono.
 
Looking forward to hearing how someone's improved on the classic indicators.
 
RV
 
 
 


Posted By: 45kg_puka
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2008 at 11:59pm
They just seem to pick the line up from down river and send a rolling loop across the surface of the river in one easy motion.. not all of us are maori :) ive been doing it for 12years p o piss once you get the swing of things.


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2008 at 3:25pm
Still havent worked out what the huge deal about The tonga roll cast. a bit of real info on it for you though since i know a fare bit about it......
 
  It was originally designed by a couple of guides on the tongariro river..... it started of as a snake roll and has progressed from there.
 
 Guide's like Jamie Davies, Chris Brennan, Mike Burgin (thats me, now retired) and perfected by the likes of Andrew Blake (this boy knows his stuff). it was until recently little used until a newplymouth writer herb spandical (spelling) got a hold of it having learnt it from one of his fishing freinds and ours Carl.
 
  since then its become this huge thing. yes its effective when done right but people miss the point...... if you cant cast a normal over head cast you will never be able to do the tonga roll effectivley, the action required for the front part of the cast is the same, a straight pushing motion, starting at the shoulder from shoulder height and ending at full lengh at shoulder height, no arc and wrist placed at the end of the stroke. required to push the roll out (specially for a full 90-100ft cast), also a haul is required so the need to know how to double haul is essential
 
the rear of the cast is a basic roll cast d loading, and the only real extra peice is the loop over pull back and throw line (anchor)similar to a snake in parts and the same in the fore throw.....
 
 My advice to people that would phone and ask to learn this cast was this..... learn to double haul a full fly+ first nice neat and tidy then look at getting flash.
 
 The TRC also has its draw back's that alot of people dont realise, its noisy, and after a time spooks the fish in the pool. annoys the hell outta me to see people doing it up at otta cannel....... if you are going to learn the TRC dont rig up a 9 weight line on a 7 weight rod, learn to do it correctly and you can cast it on any correctly weighted rod, ie 6 to 6 7 to 7 weight, on any weight forward nymph taper line.....
 
Sorry my 2 cents but had to do it:)
 
120ft over double haul FTW!!!
 
 
Oh and Hi Herb!!!!! havent seen you round for some time... maybe cause i dont do it any more aye!!!!!
 
 Oh HAI Andrew!!!!! hury up and get your ass up here for some real fishing :D teaser for you http://www.fishing.net.nz/asp_forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=31215 - http://www.fishing.net.nz/asp_forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=31215


Posted By: 45kg_puka
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2008 at 4:52pm
thats a good read :) thanks funny you should mention spooking fish, on the lower bridge there is a pool about 20+ft deep and guys always trc it to get up stream and drift thru it. problem is it makes to much noise on the water and spooks em. sure they get em but not as many of the bigger fish deep down and hugging the bottom. thats my 2cents worth :)
thanks again for the trc :)


Posted By: Pole Dancer
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 8:22am
I had always been a bit of a sceptic of this cast, but a session with Herb at the Sage meet has me convinced. It's a beautiful cast and one I'm glad I have in my repoitoire now...
 
Herb addressed the noisy on the water issue, when he did it there wa very little splash, water hiss, disturbance and he related ways to avoid the "white mouse". There was no questioning that when executed properly it wasn't noisy at all....
 
Herb, I eat my words...it's a great cast!!
 
Hardly a ripple.....


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http://www.clarkreid.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.clarkreid.co.nz    FFF Certified Casting Instructor / Umpqua Designer Tier


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 10:38am
Thanks Clark for the compliments especially so when they come from one of New Zealand's greatest allround fly fisher.     Yes, I too was blown away when I first saw it performed and as I struggled on to learn how to do it I began to realise that this home grown cast is perhaps the greatest contribution this country has made to the global family of fly fishing,
 
We need to get our head around this as yet another tool to promote this country in the international fly fishing forums and as a top trout fishing destination.   
 
Besides all that it is a great cast to prolong fly flinging for a few more years for us old codgers with bung knees and worn out shoulder joints.
 
Rainbow


Posted By: Manic
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2008 at 12:33pm
Clark
I heard you were throwing some pretty impressive loops at the Sage clinic yourself.

Herb
I totally agree with your comments and Clarks, I think you've been a great ambassador for some new techniques here in NZ and it's a good a healthy thing for the sport.

And as Mike Birgin says they all have their place in our arsenal, at the right time. If it opens up more fishing opportunities then all the better.


-------------
Rene Vaz - Manic Tackle Project
http://www.manictackleproject.com - www.manictackleproject.com
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]


Posted By: Pole Dancer
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2008 at 4:26pm
Nice people said something nice about me LOL.
 
Yep, agree with Mike on that also.
 
The week of the Sage meet was one week after my 30th Anniversary of fihsing the Tongariro... Aug 17th 1978 (Or was it '77?) anyway, when I first saw the TRC I thought "I don't need that" it's superfluous, but I was wrong. It won't be how I fish the river as standard but Herb absolutely convinced me as to the merit of it and I can see in the right spot it would help you get to fish I otherwise wouldn't have bothered with.
 
But as much as anything... it's just a beautiful cast!
 
 


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http://www.clarkreid.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.clarkreid.co.nz    FFF Certified Casting Instructor / Umpqua Designer Tier


Posted By: Cheeko
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2008 at 10:40am
Super Mike!! how are you?
 
I like your piece on the roll cast.  From my memories of its origin I remember being shown this cast by Jamie Davies back in 1998 who had been shown by Chris Brennan.  Before that I had not come across it but I had only been fishing the Tongariro for a couple of years. Herb saw myself and Bevan fishing the Silly Pool in 1999 and from there the fascination begun.   It was really effective fishing the Hydro before the big flood of 2004 wiped out most of the possies on the true right!!
 
I agree that unless you are an adequate caster in the first place you will struggle with the TRC more so than someone who is already a good caster.  I have tried showing a few guys it and some pick it up quick and others really battle. 
 
It can be noisy but I have found it can be performed quietly with a 6 weight outfit and WF line and comes in handy in some tight possies on the bigger back country pools. 
 
Are you up north these days? Im here in London for the next year or so which has put the brakes on the fishing.  Went to Norway Salmon fishing a couple months back but the fishing was very slow and we only landed two salmon between six of us.  Beautiful country though and very similar to NZ in places.
 
Being in the UK and watching the fishing programmes over here makes you realise how good NZ's fishing and outdoors really are!
 
And whats with 120FT over double haul FTW? cmon Mike 120FT??
 
Cheers
 
Karl
 


Posted By: Mike30738
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 7:38am

there is a good videpo on http://www.newzealandfishing.com



Posted By: Pole Dancer
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 8:08am
Andrew's clips are excellent for those learning new techniques, including his flytying stuff.
 
I fish with him a bit and he knows his stuff.


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http://www.clarkreid.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.clarkreid.co.nz    FFF Certified Casting Instructor / Umpqua Designer Tier


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 8:48am
Originally posted by Clark Reid Clark Reid wrote:

Andrew's clips are excellent for those learning new techniques, including his flytying stuff.
 
I fish with him a bit and he knows his stuff.
 
 Least he isn't your brother in law :P
 
 Yep andrew knows his stuff allright.


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 17 May 2009 at 9:14am
If you wish to avoid the 'white mouse' and much of the associated disturbance involved with the TRC , or in fact, any spey, simply remember the fundamentals of all fly casting - you must employ a smooth acceleration. Start each movement off slow, and smoothly accelerate to the stop / change of direction. Slide that line across the surface, freeing it of the water tension before lifting. Kind of like the basic overhead pick up: If you rip into it from the get-go, you will soon see how ineffective it is.
 
A good spey caster is a joy to watch - rod is kept in close, and moved in synch with the body, the line moving effortlessly across the surface and out towards the target. They make it look effortless, not like many videos Ive seen online of people attempting to make the cast.
 
Herb has taken a concept, mastered and improved it, and learnt to demonstrate / perform it extremely well.
 
Dont think it ends with the TRC though peoples - there are many spey techniques which can be compiled together to aerialize and deliver heavy flies on a long line. Get out there and practise!


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Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
http://www.chrisdore.co.nz - Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 17 May 2009 at 9:22am
Originally posted by Nicko Nicko wrote:

but its not just the line its the nut behind the but
 
Haha I like that Nicko - Im going to steal that sometime Wink


-------------
Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
http://www.chrisdore.co.nz - Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 3:20pm
Anyone interested in learning the Tongariro Roll Cast?
 For the forth year running I am holding a full day TRC casting clinic at the Tongariro Trout Center/Turangi on the 5th of Sept.    All proceeds go to the Tongariro Trout Center Society as my contribution for my many years of wonderful fishing I have enjoyed on this beautiful river.   For Bookings contact Ken Kimmings at the Trout Center or DOC Turangi.
 
Herb Spannagl


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2009 at 11:53pm
If I was closer to Turangi I would definatley be interested. What topics are covered over the course of the day Herb?

-------------
Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
http://www.chrisdore.co.nz - Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown


Posted By: kiwinoz
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2010 at 9:44pm

I ran into a bloke about four or five years ago on the Red Hut who was throwing some massive roll casts from the lower third of the pool up under the bridge and remember thingking that bugger is fishing the length of the pool in a single cast! It struck me, at the time, that this cast is the way nymphing will cross over into true down streaming water. You'll need to deliver heavier flies further upstream and preferably get them out of the water in front of you  to get them down deep and share the water I fish with a T-400.

Anyway I was fishing my way downstream watching the bloke teach another till we about ran into each other, I got out and waited for them to finish, a joy to watch! So I walzed up a little later and inquired as to, 'what the hell sort of cast is that?' and got the reply from Herb. G'day Rainbow!
 
I fish down stream 98% of the time, always have but that day stuck in my mind... I was in Finland this time last year and had the opportunity to fish Teno for Salmon. I thought Herb's casts were impressive!
 
The TRC is a beautiful cast and extremely effective when you consider its been delivered by a single hand rod. If you like this have a look into Spey casting and in particular Scandi and Skagit style casting with Switch rods where our style of nymph fishing is concerned. I thought I could throw a line till I watched these Fins roll massive amounts of line across that river..
 
I am still looking into Skagit & sink tip systems for down stream application, although it looks as though the traditional Tongariro pools might be a bit deep for most of it, but it has made me think OUTSIDE THE SQUARE and I am grateful for the leasson from Herb and the brief time spent in Finalnd. It has opened my eyes and really thrown a cat amongst the kakapo's as far as my flyfinshing has concerned.
 
The only problem is I'm still living in Australia so I get bugger all time to practice these things!
 
Thanks for putting this up Clark and well done to those that had a hand in putting this cast down. From what I have seen you can apply any Spey style cast to a single hander, just remeber your haul is their bottom hand.
 
Tight lines,
 
Kurt


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one more parking ticket and i'm going to snap!


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2010 at 1:20pm
Hi Kurt
 
Nice to hear from you and your adventures in FInnland.    Yes I enjoy casting almost to the point where it isnt that important to catch fish....almost.    Have rediscovered my love of casting recently after too much meat hunting from the kayak.   
 
We shall be on the Tonga from the 23-29th of August and are holding another  TRC casting clinic to raise funds for the Tongariro Trout Centre on the 28th Aug.
 
This is a cast that is worth the effort since it will compliment your overhead cast for all the upstream fly fishing you can ever do.    On the Tongariro it makes fishing easier and in paticular safer as the bombs are never behind you.    It is also quicker to set up and only requires one forward cast to achieve impressive distances regardless of what weigthed flies you use.   
 
Anyone interested to learn this cast please contact DOC Turangi, Sporting Life or the National TRout Centre.     All takings go to the SOciety.
 
Rainbow


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 10:06pm
Just returned from the Tongariro after a week's fishing.    Fish are in better condition but still crap compared with the long term average.    
 
The highlight of the trip was switching from a seven weight rod and a 65' head line to a 8'6" #6 Kilwell Innovation and a #8 weight Cortland 555 for the TRC.    Had both rod and line for years and hardly used them,    This combo is going to be my future Tonga outfit.    Light in the hand and slings 60-70' casts with rat snout loops no matter how heavy the bombs.    Had always suspected that a softer rod is better for roll casting and now I know it.    
 
Rainbow


Posted By: Cheeko
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 4:16pm
Had a couple days down there last week too.  Fishing not great but managed to hook a dozen or so fish each day - biggest about 4lbs. Some nice conditioned little freshies and heres hoping the fishery will continue to improve over summer.  The roll casting was a bit out of practice and had to make a couple of slight adjustments.  The 8 weight on the 6 weight Innovation would have loaded up nicely Herb Smile


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 5:31pm
Hi Carl    Fish have definately improved but I doubt if I ever see fish like they were in 1998 again?  
For anybody that still believes that the slaby fish of the last few years are the result of the thermocline not turning over in 2005 consider this:   When I started fishing Taupo in 1970 there was no town of Turangi, only half the subdivisions around the lake and the farms in the catchment probably got only a fraction of the fertiliser they get now.    In other words the lake was a lot nutrient poorer than it is now.    In fact it is now so nutrient rich that the weed bed in Tokaanu Bay have thickend up so much that fishing from the old Tokaanu wharf is no longer possible because of the tones of nutirents pumped daily into the lake from the Turangi sewage plant.   
 
It is obvious that whatever happened has impacted on the smelt on which the rainbows almost totally rely once they are in the lake.    The impact of the recent decline on the Turangi (Taupo)economy has been severe.    One would hope that  this almost total reliance on "one" food source should be an incentive for the DOC fishery managers to investigate a complimentary food source i.e.  one that does not compete with smelt.    This would broaden the food chain and act as an insurace for lean smelt years.    
 
I am still learning about the TRC and have also made small changes to the setup.    I now believe that a shorter and softer rod squashes the V=Loop even more ( reduces the distance between rod tip and water)  and this helps with the rod loading for the forward cast because the top leg of the V-Loop is more in line with the tip path.   Just an opinion at the moment, though.   To an overhead caster such a mismatch of rod and line weight might sound crazy.   However, bear in mind that with the  roll cast not all the line weight in the D-Loop contributes to rod loading.   The benefit of a heavier line is its greater momentum once in motion and that pulls larger/heavier flies which form part of the anchor.
 
Might do another fishing trip in September to coinside with the Outdoor Mags writers dinner and to the Sika Show.
 
Rainbow
 
 


Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 5:48pm
Like the rest of us Herb ... you will not be able to look in a mirror
& see the same image as you did in 1998 either. 


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 7:41pm
Funny you should say that Bazza, because we have taken pictures of fish and us fisherman for years and come up with one of our homelies:  "We are getting uglier evey year while the fish in the pictures always look the same".    Whilst we are still going down the fish now have gone down too.    Good thing is there is still hope for the fish but none at all for us old farts.
 
Rainbow


Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 8:43pm
Perhaps we should look to taking up spawning again mate, in the
hope that is the answer.
 
Nah on second thoughts the swim upriver would probably kill me
.... & if not the other almost certainly would!


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 11 May 2011 at 4:19pm

 

VARIABLE ANCHORS FOR THE TONGARIRO ROLL CAST

By Herb Spannagl

As we have seen in the previous chapter on the D-Loop an adequate “Anchor” is a prerequisite for the formation of the D-Loop.   Both are defining components of all Spey Casts.

 

With the TRC the “anchor” is that part of the line, indicator, leader and fly that is resting in or on the water while other line manipulations take place.   This is defined as a water born anchor as opposed to an air born anchor where the terminal end only very briefly touches the water.

 

It is important to understand that one function of the anchor is to prevent the lower leg of the D-Loop from blowing out.   Its second function is to assist with rod loading against the fully formed D-Loop.  Anchorage and the forward cast need to be in proper balance.    Too much anchorage and the line does not lift out cleanly.  Too little anchorage and the D-Loop does not hold and gets blown out.   Somewhere between the two extremes is the ideal anchorage for each TRC forward cast

 

 Because the TRC uses a water born anchor the resulting resistance or anchorage can vary a great deal and with it the quality of the delivery cast.  It may surprise you that fly “volume” has a greater bearing on anchorage than weight.   As a good example a near weightless globug offers more anchorage than a large Tungsten bead head nymph.   Why, because the larger volume globug creates more drag in the dense water column than the much slimmer weighted nymph.

 

As I have already said the “anchor” is every part of your terminal rig that is in contact with the water.   Of these components the most variable is the amount of fly line left on the water as part of the anchor package.    This short piece of the fly line is also that part of the anchorage that you can increase or lessen very quickly by simply shifting “Point P” (That point where the line emerges from the water) should you decide that this is needed in order to produce a successful cast.

 

Whilst the various movements of the TRC follow fairly standardised rules, the amount of anchorage has to be assessed and taken into account prior to every delivery cast.   Only when the correct anchor assessment has been made can the cast be fine tuned by the caster.  

 

The tools for this include:

·        Stroking the rod higher or lower to control the amount of line left on the water.  

·        Varying the force of the forward cast.  

 

Let me give you a couple of practical examples.   The first is with a globug at the end of the trace.    You already know that a globug produces considerable anchorage.   As you complete phase two of the roll cast to reposition the line for the new target you have become aware that you have not pulled the indicator close enough towards you.   As a result there is now more line lying on the water than you would like, which will increase the anchorage to more than you need for a normal cast.

This leaves you with two practical corrections.  

  • You can project the D-Loop more upwards to lift more line from the water.
  • You can stroke the cast higher while applying more force to the rod.  

 

In practice you will probably do a bit of each.

 

The next example is a light summer rig with only a very small weighted nymph and a tiny indicator.    This rig has very little anchorage and relies heavily on the amount of line left on the water to anchor sufficiently.    If you were to stroke the cast high and with force, as you needed to do in the above example, you anchor would pop out and the cast would fail. 

  • In this case the correct solution would be to leave more line on the water and stroke the rod low and with medium force.

 

Between the two examples is an infinite variety of situations, all of which require a specific anchorage assessment prior to each forward cast.    That is why only time on the water with different rig options will teach you how to make the correct anchor judgements so that you can fine tune each cast with confidence and speed.

 

 

RODS AND LINES FOR THE TONGARIRO ROLL CAST

Most rods are suitable for executing the TRC.    My personal preference is for rods with a slightly slower action, even though these are not my choice for overhead casting with weighted flies.   However, there is a much greater disparity in the suitability of lines for roll casting.    The best lines emulate the line profiles specifically designed for Spey casting with double-handed rods.   Such lines typically have an ultra long belly (up to 20m) and have the greatest line mass towards the reel end of the belly, like the Airflo Ego or the Rio Salmon/Steelhead.   I have found that over lining the rod by up to two line ratings works well.    The reason for this departure from the AFTMA recommendations is that only the upper part of the D-Loop (which is less than half of the line head) contributes most of the inertia against which to load the rod; unlike with overhead casting where all the aerialised line head plays this role.   



Posted By: gillies
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 10:42pm
I have seen Herb demonstrate his roll cast on the Tongariro in the Red Hut Pool a few years ago. What a master! And despite a historical (literary) tiff, he was most willing to demo this amazing cast - which I could not master.
Best bet would be to find out when Herb is on his annual Tongariro excursion and ask him for a demo. You will never learn this cast by reading articles - believe me, I have tried that path.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2011 at 10:24am

Hi Ron   I remeber the meeting well and am still chuckling about it.     I am finalising our annual roll casting clinic to raise money for the Turangi Trout Centre Society.    Will probably be in August to coincide with a fishing trip and hopefully with a good run of fish.     Details are usually posted on the Sporting Life website.

Hope life is treating you well
 
Cheers
 
Herb/Rainbow


Posted By: Kingfisher1
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2011 at 7:00pm
Well anglers I read again about Herb and his roll casting Expo's . to me he is saying buy a long belly fly line to achieve the Roll cast, also his expo's are not for beginners. 
The reason a beginner can't cast a long belly fly line at first. is they need to have at less 40 feet of fly line out of the rod. and he also says use a double taper fly Line . to me a double taper rolls on it's own, no need to learn that one. 
i remember a day in the upper Birch pool when herb was up there fishing , Jamie said John I get out on the Rock below them, but you will have to net them when they go past and i did. herb was there and that where he got started Roll casting after talking to Jamie.

Jamie Davies is the best roll caster in Turangi and all herb has done is perfected the spay cast into a single hand cast.what  are your thoughts ?

Going back to Jamie. he will roll cast any fly line even a shooting head. i have known Jamie since he was 12 years old and the reason he roll casts is he couldn't afford to by a pair of waders.

Jamie in the early day's roll cast right across the Hydro Pool and not get his feet wet , lets see herb do that with a shooting head.

I will say when Jamie roll casts there is no splash at all.and if you can double haul you to can learn to roll cast very easily .
Cheers anglers 


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 5:55pm
Kingfisher 1   I don't know who you are but my guess is you must be one of the bunch of Turangi meanies who just can't stand that anybody shares the skill of roll casting with other anglers without wanting to get paid for it.      
 
For your information the sad fact is that none of the above showed me anything since they wanted to keep the "Edge" for themselves.     I had to work it all out for myself after watching carefully the "experts" and studying the Spey casting principles.   
 
Reading through your septic post tells me you know F-all about any fly casting let alone Spey casting.   
 
Rainbow  
 
 
 
  


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 7:39pm
I should have known.    John Baker, the biggest Aussie loud mouth and bull sheiter in Turnagi.    
 You were not even in Turangi when the roll cast was developed.    If I remember rightly you worked at Sutherland's Sports in New Plymouth who's owner told me that he had to put you out the back, because your bad customer manners.    Well nothing had changed in Turangi.
 
"Reading through your septic post tells me you know F-all about any fly casting let alone Spey casting".    I certainly was not far wrong there either.  
 
Rainbow
 
 


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

 
Reading through your septic post tells me you know F-all about any fly casting let alone Spey casting.   
 
Your spot on there Rainbow. 
 
 
 
  


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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 8:08pm
I have never seen so much written about a technique that is as old as the hills and people trying to claim it as their own.
 
There are many good exponents of the single handed roll cast from Turangi and around the country. As there are the Belgian cast which is very good for casting weighted flys especially if you want to kick the fly sideways on landing to enable getin close to blackberry or banks etc.
 
Its like the golf swing, We all have our own mechanics of height, physicality etc, but we all do the same thing at the  time of delivery.


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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Kingfisher1 Kingfisher1 wrote:

Well anglers I read again about Herb and his roll casting Expo's . to me he is saying buy a long belly fly line to achieve the Roll cast, also his expo's are not for beginners. 
The reason a beginner can't cast a long belly fly line at first. is they need to have at less 40 feet of fly line out of the rod. and he also says use a double taper fly Line . to me a double taper rolls on it's own, no need to learn that one. 
i remember a day in the upper Birch pool when herb was up there fishing , Jamie said John I get out on the Rock below them, but you will have to net them when they go past and i did. herb was there and that where he got started Roll casting after talking to Jamie.

Jamie Davies is the best roll caster in Turangi and all herb has done is perfected the spay cast into a single hand cast.what  are your thoughts ?

Going back to Jamie. he will roll cast any fly line even a shooting head. i have known Jamie since he was 12 years old and the reason he roll casts is he couldn't afford to by a pair of waders.

Jamie in the early day's roll cast right across the Hydro Pool and not get his feet wet , lets see herb do that with a shooting head.

I will say when Jamie roll casts there is no splash at all.and if you can double haul you to can learn to roll cast very easily .
Cheers anglers 

 Having fished allot with Jamie over the years, Yes Jamie has a nice fluid cast.... Jamie's roll cast has the same noise that anybodies TRC has that knows how to do it, its not a splash as such but it makes noise. There are many that can do a flyline with this cast. shooting head is actually easier to do it with.  Chris Brennan to name but one that still remains down there that has similar ability with it. 

 Double Haul has not allot to do with a single haul technique TRC other than maybe the single haul :D 


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 10:43am
LOL

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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 11:11am

what distances are we talking here?



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Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
http://www.chrisdore.co.nz - Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 12:19pm
Chris 70-80' is more realistic.    I have yet to see anyone cast a full flyline with the TRC, especially with a standard WF line.    As you know a long overhead cast with a WF line requires a long back cast.    It is the same with the TRC, which for a long cast also needs a very deep and dynamic V-loop.    On this planet gravity never sleeps and there is only so much line that can be aerialised in a V Loop with a 9'rod.    
Contrary to the above claims the TRC is not very suitable for casting sinking shooting heads.   It does not even cast sink tips well.     The reason for both is that because the TRC uses a waterborne anchor too much line has time to sink during the set-up phase and this furnishes such a big anchorage that the line left in the D-Loop is struggling  to lift it out and cast it a good distance.     The proof of that is in the massive floating Skagit heads that are needed to roll cast the heavy sink tips.   
 
Rainbow
 
 
 


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 2:12pm
Rainbow I didnt see mentioned sinking heads, just heads. I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies. Myself a couple of metres short, but I have never given it much of a go. Your right tho the average fisheman will do about 70 to 80 feet. Kiwi anglers in general are pretty good casters compared say to the average North American angler.
 
As far needing a big back cast for cast a big distance,  I guess it depends what you mean by a big distance. The other aspect of this is part of the loading for the spey comes from the line being on the water initially helping with preloading the rod therfor need less line in the air to achieve the same objective..


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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: Tore
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

...
I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies. Myself a couple of metres short, but I have never given it much of a go.
...
 
With a Tonga bomb setup? Impressive... Shocked


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

...
I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies. Myself a couple of metres short, but I have never given it much of a go.
...
 
With a Tonga bomb setup? Impressive... Shocked
Impressive but true!! Most fly lines are only around 90feet, so we have already said joe average angler will cast 70-80', why is it beyond comprehension better casters can do 90'.  

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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: TheBadger
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 4:32pm
I can definitely believe that true experts will hit a full flyline with relative consistency. I only really started using the cast on my last trip, but the better casts wouldn't have been far shy of 70ft. 

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'Badger on the other hand, he's basically a bum'


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 5:47pm
It is always easier to talk or write about a full line cast than to do it........against the tape.    I happen to know all the above "eperts", some better than others.   I spent quite a bit of time with Andrew fine tuning his TRC casting.    What you all forget is that there is absolutely no benefit from roll casting or overhead casting a full line on the Tonga, unless you are wetlining with a shooting head at the bottom of the Lower Bridge Pool.     
Rainbow


Posted By: Tore
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 5:53pm
Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters. I can do a whole line using single spey with a normal floater and a double haul. And preferably some kind of platform. But I've never ever had the need for such a cast while fishing.
Also, how "fishable" would a cast like that be? You'd be casting to the far fank, with the fast current in the middle...
 
I don't think average Joe Angler can do 70'-80' consistently either (isn't it around 70 feet across the Hydro?). At least not the Joes that I have observed in the Tonga. Most seem to anchor the over head back cast in the water behind them prior to the forward cast. LOL
 
Also let's not forget that casting a 90' flyline is not the same as casting a distance of 90 feet...
 
What's this discussion really about again?? Stern Smile


Posted By: Cheeko
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies.
Haha Im loving all this big cast talk on here.  I have fished with Jamie, Andrew and Mike on the Tongariro on many a day since the TRC came in and I have never seen any of them cast the full line.  In fact Mike couldnt even do the TRC when I last fished with him on Tongariro (albeit this was probably 2002) Wink
 
I once cast the full line in the hydro and that was only because I had a little tail wind which sent it sailing and to be fair you should only count it as a full line if the backing goes out the tip? My cast that day certainly didnt.
 
its a great cast though and pretty easy to do with a bit of practice.


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

It is always easier to talk or write about a full line cast than to do it........against the tape.    I happen to know all the above "eperts", some better than others.   I spent quite a bit of time with Andrew fine tuning his TRC casting.    What you all forget is that there is absolutely no benefit from roll casting or overhead casting a full line on the Tonga, unless you are wetlining with a shooting head at the bottom of the Lower Bridge Pool.     
Rainbow

 You best be bringing your pretty little setup up to Whangarei then.... I haven't cast a line in 3 years but I bet if we put you shouting my family and extended family dinner and a few drinks I will prove your stereo typical comments incorrect.... I can do a 5-6-7-8 weight with a standard weight forward line balanced to a decent rod a 70-80ft doing the TRC not an over weighted pile either if mind 5-6 weights being the easiest, not a 110 ft line mind you that I leave to herb in his carpet slippers. I can do 70-80 ft on a 7weight rod in 1 false cast double haul, and belgian... So can Photog... 2 false casts and away it goes for backing +. understanding the dynamics and mechanics of a cast and you will realise that what you have said is utter rubbish. If you have spent that much time with Andrew you will also know a bit about me and photog.  

 I also fail to understand your comment of no benefit to casting a full line on the tonga's. I can think of several spots straight away were its very useful. unless your one of these guys that knows they have waded deep enough when water runs in the top of there waders... infact very useful when the waters clear and fish spooky as well. 

 
No these people do you. and you are you... not a certain Safa that was up in the weekend perhaps. ? 


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Cheeko Cheeko wrote:

Originally posted by photog photog wrote:

I know of 3 definates in my circle of fly fishermen that can put a full line out with single handed spey, Mike Burgin, Andrew blake, Chris Brennan, probably Jamie Davies.
Haha Im loving all this big cast talk on here.  I have fished with Jamie, Andrew and Mike on the Tongariro on many a day since the TRC came in and I have never seen any of them cast the full line.  In fact Mike couldnt even do the TRC when I last fished with him on Tongariro (albeit this was probably 2002) Wink
 
I once cast the full line in the hydro and that was only because I had a little tail wind which sent it sailing and to be fair you should only count it as a full line if the backing goes out the tip? My cast that day certainly didnt.
 
its a great cast though and pretty easy to do with a bit of practice.

 Funny that, perhaps you may want to check your dates on that. I new it well before Andrew. considering he was only fishing for the last 4 years of me being down there. How are you Carl? and by many ocasions I hope your not meaning the 2 times we fished in closeish proximity. 


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters. I can do a whole line using single spey with a normal floater and a double haul. And preferably some kind of platform. But I've never ever had the need for such a cast while fishing.
Also, how "fishable" would a cast like that be? You'd be casting to the far fank, with the fast current in the middle...
 
I don't think average Joe Angler can do 70'-80' consistently either (isn't it around 70 feet across the Hydro?). At least not the Joes that I have observed in the Tonga. Most seem to anchor the over head back cast in the water behind them prior to the forward cast. LOL
 
Also let's not forget that casting a 90' flyline is not the same as casting a distance of 90 feet...
 
What's this discussion really about again?? Stern Smile

 You dont cast straight across the river.... or do you LOL

 AS far as fishable goes... yes very. if you know how to mend. I.E. lift your rod dont shuffle the line.

 Your correct about the distance of the cast though... you have to add 18ft of leader in there.  


Posted By: Cheeko
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 8:06pm
[/QUOTE]

 Funny that, perhaps you may want to check your dates on that. I new it well before Andrew. considering he was only fishing for the last 4 years of me being down there. How are you Carl? and by many ocasions I hope your not meaning the 2 times we fished in closeish proximity. 
[/QUOTE]
 
hey Mike,  no the last time I fished with you was in 2002 on the river and you couldnt do it then LOL We were fishing the old birches where you had to roll over to the far bank - couldnt false cast due to the black berries.
 
Your right though as Andrew only started in 2004 - quick learner that man though.  And I have definitely never seen someone throw a full line doing it - but would like to witness it.  Its easy enough getting to 25 metres, but those last couple metres are a mission.
 
Im all good, not a lot of T fishing.  Was thinking about going to Turangi this weekend if they got some rain as the fishing sounds like it has been tough.  Am going to go chase some snappers on soft baits instead though up the thames coast.  You been out in the briny much lately or down at Turangi?


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 8:11pm
NAH New boy has slowed the fishing down this year... so not allot of fishing.

 Fresh water in all honesty can FOAD... over it after so many years TBH. 

 Yup birches I can sort of remember. Its come a very long way since then mate, that cast was in its young years back then with only 3 poeple really doing it at all... Try a 6 weight on the whakakakakakakapapapapapapa. full fly line then some... slightly lighter flies and a tail wind of coarse still cant do it stood high on a forward running river properly mind, just like at the birches way back then. :P something about my body seriousl does'nt agree with that position. maybe the fat guts


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 8:38pm
"I also fail to understand your comment of no benefit to casting a full line on the tonga's. I can think of several spots straight away were its very useful. unless your one of these guys that knows they have waded deep enough when water runs in the top of there waders... infact very useful when the waters clear and fish spooky as well".
Hookapuka,   I purposly put in that comment without putting in the reason and you fell right into the quick sand.    Even if you could cast a full line for upstream nymphing there is no way you could mend it.   And you should know that mending is just as important as casting out there in the first place.   I have been fishing the Tonga since 1970 and have never seen a run or pool from the source to the Delta where you don't have to mend sooner or later, unless of course you just want to take your flies for a swim.    Making grandious claims like yours only shows your up your poor understanding of trout fishing.
 
Rainbow
 

 


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

"
Hookapuka,   I purposly put in that comment without putting in the reason and you fell right into the quick sand.    Even if you could cast a full line for upstream nymphing there is no way you could mend it.   And you should know that mending is just as important as casting out there in the first place.   
Rainbow 
 I always get amused by those that can't, telling those that can that is can't be done. I can tell you there is a technique for mending a full line. I used to have a vid of me doing it my website when I had Anglers Retreat. I used to fish a full line in quite a few places on the Tonga, and yes you had to pick your water and yes I could mend and drift correctly, probably why I caught so many fish.
 
 Tip for the mend: difficult to achieve with a downstream wind best with an upstream wind, Cast put a slight wiggle in the line as it settles, hold the rod high, haul and snap the rod forward straight back up the line. As the river drifts the line back down stream the line thrown forward will fall in the right place. Don't pull the line across but rather straight back up is path and the line wil just peal up off the water.. Do it properly you will hardly disturb the fly. Give it a try, just takes a but of practice. I used to throw 2 quick loops back along the line.
 
I have seen Peter Hayes (Australian casting champ) cast a fly line over 25 metres without a rod, just with his hands. Mike saw his party trick to when Pete and I held some advance casting classes in Taupo a few years ago. 
 
The thing about being able to cast a long line is to know when and when not to use it, but it's great to have it in your arsenal. It matters not if you believe me or not but if you want to improve open your minds.


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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: gobbog
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters. I can do a whole line using single spey with a normal floater and a double haul. And preferably some kind of platform. But I've never ever had the need for such a cast while fishing.
Also, how "fishable" would a cast like that be? You'd be casting to the far fank, with the fast current in the middle...
 
I don't think average Joe Angler can do 70'-80' consistently either (isn't it around 70 feet across the Hydro?). At least not the Joes that I have observed in the Tonga. Most seem to anchor the over head back cast in the water behind them prior to the forward cast. LOL
 
Also let's not forget that casting a 90' flyline is not the same as casting a distance of 90 feet...
 
What's this discussion really about again?? Stern Smile

I can confirm this, on the last day out with me he was indeed getting the hang of it on occasion and was pushing the 70-80 ft bracket, also tonga bombs do not really effect this cast as much as you think as herb demonstrated to me when he taught me the cast on a local lake.

The technique of anchoring in the water on the back cast works suprisingly well providing its the bomb and leader that hit the water not the belly as the rod really loads up for a nice forward cast ugly but effective LOL.


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 10:36pm
so, have you guys got video of these casts? Im interested in your technique.

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Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
http://www.chrisdore.co.nz - Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown


Posted By: TheBadger
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Jack, with Tonga bombs and single hand spey? I doubt that's a routine cast for even very decent casters.


Haha certainly wasn't a routine cast for me either! But some of the better ones would have been in that range. Some of the worst ones would have been lucky to hit 40ft... Keep in mind this was with an 8wt set up. Certainly didn't mean it as an ego pump, more just saying that I can definitely believe that guys who were true experts in the discipline could manage far greater. Whether they'd have any need to cast that far is another story entirely.


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'Badger on the other hand, he's basically a bum'


Posted By: Tore
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 11:34pm
Photog, I'm struggling to see a point in your posts, sorry. One of my mates is the current world champion distance caster with flyfishing gear, where he beat guys like Steve Rajeff. Another one of my mates is a European casting champion. Personally I have been responsible for sponsoring several national casting events in Scandinava, and I have also been part of R&D teams that have developed rods for casting. AND, I can do 23 meters, against the tape, without a rod. At least that's how far it went the one time I had a tape with me. I've done 142 feet, again against the tape, with a 6wt. And of course any good caster adds line on both back and forward casts. How do these facts add anything to this discussion?? Stern Smile 
 
And with respect, fishing in a river with 90ft casts, a SH rod and a WF line makes no sense at all. Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
Gobbog, I think you're talking about 70-80ft of LINE. That I can believe.


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Photog, I'm struggling to see a point in your posts, sorry. One of my mates is the current world champion distance caster with flyfishing gear, where he beat guys like Steve Rajeff. Another one of my mates is a European casting champion. Personally I have been responsible for sponsoring several national casting events in Scandinava, and I have also been part of R&D teams that have developed rods for casting. AND, I can do 23 meters, against the tape, without a rod. At least that's how far it went the one time I had a tape with me. I've done 142 feet, again against the tape, with a 6wt. And of course any good caster adds line on both back and forward casts. How do these facts add anything to this discussion?? Stern Smile 
 
And with respect, fishing in a river with 90ft casts, a SH rod and a WF line makes no sense at all. Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
Gobbog, I think you're talking about 70-80ft of LINE. That I can believe.
Well done!!!Clap as I said my point wasn't to blow arse but to get people to open their minds. I see it all the time on here where some people think because they cant do it it can't be done or because they don't do it theres no need to. I was just trying to get people to broaden their minds a little. And guess what I knew that someone would spout off and see it for some thing other than what it was meant
(with respect)Disapprove.
 
Surely the site is about passing on knowledge and helping others if they want it.
 
Just because you can't see the point in long cast for migratory trout on heavily fished river like the Tongaririo doesn't mean there isn't one. In my opinion there is. You wouldn't do it of course on a back country river fishing for river residents, thats a different ball game. Like I said I don't care if you don't believe, just don't get personal go and try it..


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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 6:22am
Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
 
Now I didnt actually say that. Having played with rolls and speys with Paul and Hayesie however I would like to see this approach to single handed spey. You dont often see the TRC on the Mataura down here. These guys have above shared an interest in helping people improve and opening their minds, I would just like to hear their input and see the results. As an instructor, I generally recognise three effective ways of teaching. Audible, visual, and by feel.
 
Im a visual learner.
 
All in the interest of opening our minds Smile


-------------
Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
http://www.chrisdore.co.nz - Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 7:56am
Sorry Chris the only vids of it that I know of are the ones Andrew did a few years back. the rest of us were to busy either fishing or guiding. and getting devorced  lol 

 This is a link to him playing around with it on the tonga vid to the right. somethings gone bung with his page
http://www.newzealandfishing.com/new-zealand-fishing/tongariro-roll-cast.htm - http://www.newzealandfishing.com/new-zealand-fishing/tongariro-roll-cast.htm


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

  I purposly put in that comment without putting in the reason and you fell right into the quick sand.    Even if you could cast a full line for upstream nymphing there is no way you could mend it. (hahahaha ****ing LOL)   And you should know that mending is just as important as casting out there in the first place.   I have been fishing the Tonga since 1970 and have never seen a run or pool from the source to the Delta where you don't have to mend sooner or later, unless of course you just want to take your flies for a swim.    Making grandious claims like yours only shows your up your poor understanding of trout fishing.
 
Rainbow
 

 

 Again rainbow, bring your rod up here and find out if your right or not... I will put my money were my mouth is on that as well.... just because you cant doesn't mean others cant. of coarse you may need to give me a day with a rod in hand to get my feet. seen plenty of others do it as well. Its about fly placement and reading the water and understanding your drift. you would think for someone having fished it since the 70's you would know better. 

 Poor understanding of trout fishing you say... LOL sorry but LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL dont you remember me casting bombs at your face on the oposite side of the river in boulder reach a few years back for your poor fishing ethics .... Oh hi Herb

 If you consider the Tongaririo the be all and end all then perhaps your definition of fly fishing is different to mine. Rangatiki blows it out the water... another river that requires long cast, tongariro is repetitive and boring although the numbers of fish can make it good fun at times, althought I fear those days are gone.


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Chris Dore Chris Dore wrote:

Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
 
Now I didnt actually say that. Having played with rolls and speys with Paul and Hayesie however I would like to see this approach to single handed spey. You dont often see the TRC on the Mataura down here. These guys have above shared an interest in helping people improve and opening their minds, I would just like to hear their input and see the results. As an instructor, I generally recognise three effective ways of teaching. Audible, visual, and by feel.
 
Im a visual learner.
 
All in the interest of opening our minds Smile

 out of interest do you use the waterfall technique in your teachings ? :D 


 And sorry guys this has blown off topic 

 TRC is all G 


Posted By: Tore
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 9:18am
Originally posted by Chris Dore Chris Dore wrote:

Originally posted by Tore Tore wrote:

Obviously Chris doesn't believe in any of these fairytales either, but he's a better diplomat than I. Clap
 
 
Now I didnt actually say that. Having played with rolls and speys with Paul and Hayesie however I would like to see this approach to single handed spey. You dont often see the TRC on the Mataura down here. These guys have above shared an interest in helping people improve and opening their minds, I would just like to hear their input and see the results. As an instructor, I generally recognise three effective ways of teaching. Audible, visual, and by feel.
 
Im a visual learner.
 
All in the interest of opening our minds Smile
 
LOL
 
Open minds are good. Simple minds seem happier though...


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 10:15am
Sorry Chris I used to have  some vids of this and the full line mend, I'd did them in conjunction with Peter Hayes a few years ago. You probably know Peter, a great caster from Tasmania. Pete was also surprised at the distance achieved with the bombs, both with the roll cast and overhead. Unfortunately I can't find the vids.
 
I must admit personally I used the Belgian cast far more the the roll cast but haven't thrown a fly line for 5 years.


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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 10:20am
Ive taught the 1 inch waterfall a couple of times since peter showed it to me but most clients get it when i ask simply for a long smooth lift. The waterfall would be handy to settle down 'snatchers' in my methodology

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Chris Dore
FFF Certified Casting Instructor
SCOTT Pro Staff
http://www.chrisdore.co.nz - Fly Fishing and Casting Tuition, Queenstown


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 10:37am
Hookerpuka    You need to be a bit careful when waxing forth about the Rangitikai or any of the great head water fisheries of the NI.    Here are a couple of photos from the early sixties    The rod is a Kilwell Blue Hawk and the boots are Anson with no slip horse shoe nails if that means anything to you.    
 
Rainbow


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 10:46am
@Chris. useful for those that cant perceive what slow lift and accelerate is I found. only mentioned it because you mentioned Peter. Nice guy with a very pretty cast. very much a traditionalist in his styles and methods. He went through a little learning curve on the tonga with heavier flies as well :D 


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Hookerpuka    You need to be a bit careful when waxing forth about the Rangitikai or any of the great head water fisheries of the NI.    Here are a couple of photos from the early sixties    The rod is a Kilwell Blue Hawk and the boots are Anson with no slip horse shoe nails if that means anything to you.    
 
Rainbow

 You were just about as ugly then as you are now... Hopefully the respect for the back country and it prestigious fish has improved from those days though... especially out of the top end of any of them.  


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 1:46pm
 
 Hopefully the respect for the back country and it prestigious fish has improved from those days though... especially out of the top end of any of them.  
[/QUOTE]
 
Not so sure about that one.   All summer long every one of those head waters is bombarded with choppers bearing Simms'ed out parties that hammer the same resident fish over and over.   As one guide told me: "These fish have made me a lot of money".      In the early days  fisherman did not know any better but at least they used to eat what they caught, nowadays fish have become mere animated toys, with the pleasure strickly onesided.    The same circus goes on with kingies, especially up your end.    
 
When you climb down from your pedestal and think about all this a bit deeper you will realise that none of us are blame free.
 
Rainbow


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 3:16pm
Pedestal or realization of what an exceptional resource the trout are in NZ for both the economy and enjoyment...? we can agree to disagree on this one. just imagine Herb without these trout in our water how much smaller door ways you would be able to fit through and how little you would have to write about talk about etc...

 Sweden and its catch and release is bad crap is ------------> that way....  you guys musta been pretty hungry that day in your photo aye.... I dont begrudge anybody for keeping a feed out of the tonga's etc, but back country resident fish were there's a couple of fish to a pool? 


 Your not the only one that can try and bedazzle with fine photo's of nice fish caught over the years, difference being mine are generally alive. 


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Hookerpuka    You need to be a bit careful when waxing forth about the Rangitikai or any of the great head water fisheries of the NI.    Here are a couple of photos from the early sixties    The rod is a Kilwell Blue Hawk and the boots are Anson with no slip horse shoe nails if that means anything to you.    
Rainbow
Sorry I really need this one explaining. Secondly why you would need to kill so many fish out of a headwater fishery.

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If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 4:15pm
Back on the pulpit again, Hookerpuka.    Those pictures were taken almost 50 years ago when you were probably still playing in the sand pit.     I took us a week to fish up from Springvale to the Mangamaire, climbing around bluffs, swimming the river with our rods clamped between the teeth and fly camping under a bit of canvas.     Same on the Mohaka, Ngararoro, Ikewhatea, Taurau, Upper Ruakituri and many lesser bush rivers.    I don't need you to lecture me about the back blocks, flcasting, fishing or fisheries conservation.    You obviously don't know when C&R was introduced to NZ by "Trout Unlimited" but it was not that long ago.    If you cant help yourself judging previous generations by today's standards than dont get upset to get the same treatment from some not yet born tadpole. 
 
When I came to NZ in 1960 I found a land of Deer Bomb Ups and fishing camps full of pressure cookers and Agee preserving jars.    
 
BTW when is your DVD or book on fly casting coming out?
 
Rainbow
 


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 4:53pm
Guess when I haven't got better thing to do..

 It's not about how old the photo's are. its your attitude towards the concept of [email protected]
Quote nowadays fish have become mere animated toys, with the pleasure strickly onesided.    The same circus goes on with kingies, especially up your end.    
like I said I have my theories and you have yours. agree to disagree. 

 Also I did put improved since back then ...fully giving credit to the fact that back then [email protected] wasn't really practiced
Quote Hopefully the respect for the back country and it prestigious fish has improved from those days though... especially out of the top end of any of them.


 ADMIN can you please delete my posts out of this thread when you see this... its a valuble thread thats been blown out by rando posts from myself and herb arguing about the fundamentals of fried chicken... delete and return this back to an on track thread please and herbs if he agrees :D 

 thanks 


Posted By: photog
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 9:13pm
Rainbow, what is your problem. Need your ego stroking!!
It's good that you are trying to get across to people the principle of a cast. Unfortunately I feel the technicalities of it in writing  ( no matter who writes it ) is to difficult for most to visualise.
 
 And please stop telling people that some thing can't be done just because you can't do it.  We only use #7 weight on the Tongariro and Mike would outcast me and most with the TRC including you. Now the Belgiun I would rip you all up by a good few metres. So stop bad mouthing people just because they do it different to you.
 
And what the hell has writing a book got to do with it. I can remember the first trout book I bought was by a guy called Geoffrey Bucknall. Within 2 years I'd thrown it away and rewritten every chapter. So just like bad fishermen there are bad authors so your point was.
 
SmileSo lighten up a little so others may learn, stop making it about YOUSmile Share what you have and leave others to share theirs. So lets get back to casting. please!!Big smile


-------------
If I'm not taking photos I'm fishing. If I'm not fishing I'm taking photos, either way I'm having fun.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2011 at 9:15pm
On my recent trip to the Tongariro I did some of my best TRC's with wait for it:   a 8'6/4 #6 Kilwell Innovation I made up years ago teamed up with a #8 Cortland 555 I also had for about 10 years.    It is a fantastic combo that cast a 2.5 gram sinker ( would not call this a bomb anymore) right across the lower bridge pool from the town side.    Just shows you that we all get too hung up with the latest and greatest.
 
The combo was so sweet that I fished with it most of the week in preferrence to my bigger outfit.
 
In the process I also discovered that I now set up the TRC differently from what the locals do.   It is without doubt the ideal cast for the Tongariro.
 
Rainbow
 
 


Posted By: Toad2
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2011 at 10:04pm
Hey Herb,
Thanks for the Clinic last weekend. I learnt heaps and now my casting has improved heaps as well.
Whats this new setup you've got? DId try out the tongariro roll cast on the river and got a few, as you said very easy on the body. Now just gotta improve it haha!
Cheers,
Craig( One of the boys)


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 9:30pm
Toad2   I always roll the line onto the water in the direction I want the cast to go.   I then slip some line as I pull the indicator in position that also straightens the line lying on the water.    The line points in the direction of the target.   Then I fold the line beside and behind me and never over the indicator.    This narrow fold causes little splash (white mouse) during DLoop forming.     It is important not to look at the target during the later stages of the cast ( that placement has already been made earlier on) but to concentrate to lift point P as close to the indicator to reduce exessive anchorage before launching the delivery cast.    
 
It is all a bit of a mouthfull but in practice it becomes a smooth transition.    
 
Hope you keep practicing often because success comes only in small increments.
 
Cheers
 
Rainbow


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 11:21pm
Herb, why do you use 2 weights up of fly line on the rod your using, effectively making the rod useless for most other casts? With the exception of the obvious easier loading off the D loop do you have another reason for doing it since you can do it with out going up in line weight... Had someone ask me what your reasoning was for it the other day. I assumed it was laziness (not meaning that in a derogatory way) meaning that you can be lazy with your cast.


Posted By: Chris Dore
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 7:27pm
Quite simply im assuming he is soley putting more weight into his D loop, quite standard practise internationally when spey casting.


Posted By: Jet_ski_fisher
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 4:15pm
I use to use this casting aint done it in 10years or so.




Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 9:45pm
TRC is way more effective than the standard roll. so are the snake roll and double D etc. especially when it comes to weighty flies. 



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