Theres no point in lugging a load of gear to the opposite side of the world if theres nothing to use it on.

 

Perch, Tench, Rudd, Carp, Catfish are all about and probably more I can';t think of right now. One thing to be mindful of... some of the fish species fished for are gazetted "Noxious Fish" by the government, that means if caught they cannot legally be return to the water... some coarse fishers do but I believe its because they do not understand the penalties if caught. There are clubs, I believe in Auckland... someone should be able to help with a contact.

 

Bring your gear you have a lot of opportunities but please be aware that coarse fishermen are blamed by some for wrecking some waterways with their fish releases... It's almost like a secret society.... I guess it's what you are used to but with the spectacular salt and freshwater opportunities about in NZ already I cannot fathom why someone would want to coarse fish but that's probably being hypocritical as some don't understand why I prefer to saltwater fly.

 

Enjoy yourself and good luck.

The plan is to live in the Bay of Plenty area, but its all down to where I get a job.

 

Have a great New Year

 

Run off is a major problem, no doubt. But that does NOT mean that all the other problems NZ fisheries are facing shouldn't be dealt with! One of these problems is spreading of unwanted species. It is happening as we speak, and it's irreversible.

 

It takes a lot of work to keep waterways healthy in a modern society. It takes ONE butthead about 5 minutes to ruin it all!

 

In my view it is every angler's responsibility to do his/her part to maintain the quality of the waters they fish. This includes killing off whatever  'noxious' species they might catch, and also not spreading potentially damaging signals.

 

 

Rudd, Perch, carp etc has not been here longer than trout! Common for fish like rudd and carp is that they f*** up the water quality. They also feed from the same food source as trout and native species (what's left). Perch eat just about anything, including trout fry. I'm sure someone here can tell you about the fishing in lake Ototoa after perch was illegally introduced.

 

What you have to realise is that although trout is also an introduced species, trout fishing has developed to be a valuable resource for NZ. Coarse fishing is NOT, and is in fact a threat to this resource.

 

I think you need to do some research before you make these claims. Here are some readings for you:

 

http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33412 - http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33412

 

http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33411 - http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33411

 

http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33410 - http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33410

 

http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33408 - http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33408

 

http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33516 - http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=33516

 

 

Koi carp: 1960's

Perch: 1860's

 

DOC never said that carp is the sole reason for muddy water. If they did I think they'd have a hard time being taken seriously. They simply address one of the problems this noxious fish causes. And there is no doubt they cause a decrease of water quality of various scales.

 

You say you want pike. I've caught thousands in my time. Even shot them with a shotgun during spring, when they're spawning in the weeds (I was young and foolish then...). Pike go well with perch, rudd and most other species. But for some reason they don't mix very well with trout. In some waterways with variable types of water, and where they have had thousands of years to adapt, they can go together. But if you introduce them into new waterways they will in most cases wipe out the trout population in a very short time. They are also known to attack fish their same size, and sometimes larger than themselves. It's probably the last species you'd want introduced to this country.

 

Perch spawn in still water. The number of fish hatched vastly outnumbers the number of trout hatched or introduced in any lake. So in time, since they're eating from the same table as trout fry (including the trout fry), the number of trout WILL decrease dramatically. Perch also become fish-eaters much earlier than trout, which is hardly to the trout's advantage either.

 

There are many water systems around the world where you'll find trout, perch, pike, grayling, char etc. living together in perfect harmony. I have fished many of them. Common for all these waters is that they have had thousands of years to develop and adapt. Each species has found its place in the habitat and the food chain.

I have personally seen the effect of introducing perch, pike and even grayling to natural trout waters. In every single case the quality of the trout fishery has decreased. In some cases we introduced Canadian char (=serious fish eaters!) to overpopulated trout lakes with good results, but that was to fix an already excisting problem. I don't see a problem with having a world class trout fishery, so why risk ruining it????

 

Finally, I don't think you should draw any conclusions concerning this issue from your experiences in the Waikato. As you know many NZ rivers (most, in fact) are of a totally different nature. Looking at the lower waikato I'd be surprised to find anything BUT carp and rudd in that river.

 

(I sure miss fact-master Clark in this debate...)

 

Well, in that case it looks like we agree more than what seemed to be the case initially. I do not look down on coarse fishermen. On the contrary. I've landed a fair number of redfins and pike myself (plus numerous other species). Redfin is superb eating. Better than trout in my view. And the hardcore coarse anglers are truly skilled and knowledgable blokes.

 

The thing is that the effects of all these introduced species is somewhat poorly documented in NZ. Mostly the research is consolidated from studies made in other parts of the world. So it's basically a case of studying the characterists and living patterns of the various species, comparing them and assuming how the will fit into their new habitat over time. It's only during the past few years that the issue has been taken seriously. Since NZ already has one of the very best trout fisheries in the world, it's better to be safe than sorry. But it is a very complicated matter, no doubt.

 

There are many interests involved. Some places the number of trout hasn't actually decreased, but 9 out of 10 hookups will be a perch or another coarse fish. So the trout FISHING in those places has become a sad story. Impact on native species is also a natural thing to consider.

 

I'm moving to Pukekohe mid January, so I'll probably be hooking up on a few of these Waikato-critters myself in the years to come.

 

Perch have been here a long time and co-habit with trout in many areas. In most cases it's not too much of a problem but there are places where they have taken over trout fisheries and virtually ruined them alongside other impacts like farming practices etc. In most cases the population explosions seem to be cyclic so in the places I have experienced the trout fishing can be OK one season in four or five. The Kourau Dam near Masterton is a case in point... It used to be one of the best places to introduce young anglers to trout fishing and fish up to ten pounds have been caught there over the years... the perch got in and, when I last fished it, it was almost impossible to put any sort of lure in the water without it getting monster-ed by a 6 inch perch. You might say this is great for the kids... but in actual; fact kids like action but there it is so easy they get bored with it after less than 30 minutes... In an attempt to help the situation the North Wairarapa Sub Branch of the Wellington Acclimatisation Society (Yes we are going back a few years) used to get together and go fish there in groups We'd take sugar sacks and every angler would fill one or two with perch in a morning. Most were either eaten or used as cat food and it did, if we did it regularly, reduce the population temporarily enough to allow some sort of trout sport in there.

 

However such species are not what this discussion needs... what it needs is facts and Tore has presented some unfortunately these are being "countered" by opinion and the opinion is not borne out by facts.

 

The main reason Carp should be killed is because that is the regulation in place on the fishery. The regulation is there based on a reason, scientific proven reason, and to disregard any fishery regulation because it doesn't agree with your personal opinion is irresponsible and misguided, possibly costly too ultimately if caught...

 

When I was secretary of the NZFFA I inherited much of the research documents compiled in the fight against the introduction of Carp to New Zealand. There are, I believe, over 5000 pages of international papers on them in the NZFFA library... I read most all of them!!! I believe Ken Simms, the research officer of the NZFFA still has these and it would be worth anyone talking "Carp" to get hold of him and read them before spreading irresponsible attitude about them. They are a banned fish in many parts of the world and most parts of the world have a stronger attitude toward them than we do here. The reason is that once the information on them reached the appropriate authorities the decision was made to destroy all of the fish held for trials near the Waikato River... Mysteriously the fish "escaped" the day before the destruction was meant to occur and now we are stuck with them. Other species of carp have since been released by coarse anglers with no regard for our fisheries and others simply by having unwanted pets tipped into drains or flushed down the ****ter....

 

Coarse fish in general are a relatively new species in New Zealand. Their habitat spread is still occurring while trout have pretty much colonized everywhere they are going to, in fact their habitat range is most probably decreasing as the effects of run-off, water extraction and coarse fish spread increases. I get a little miffed when i read people making preposterous statements saying they are having no impact when many of the waters I used to fish in the Waikato 30 years ago are now no longer even considered trout fisheries because of the effects of both pollution, farming practices and the spread of coarse fish into them. New people to the sport don't even think these places are trout fisheries or ever have been and yet when I was a kid many of these places are where we learned how to trout fish. I remember seeing tench and Rudd on the license in those days and having to look them up in books in the library to know what they looked like as I had never seen one, now they are the predominate species in some cases and no trout can be found there.... so let's make sure we actually know what we are talking about in this. Looking at a place such as Karapiro or Arapuni and saying the trout are doing OK doesn't seem to be based on any information supplied by anyone except maybe that someone caught a trout there.... is it the same as it was 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago or are you just guessing?? I can tell you from personal experience it isn't and I doubt fish and game has done any research to show if trout are actually declining.... so how do you know???

 

Some coarse fish species are weed eaters and others are not. Not all of them control weeds and many of them, through their lifestyles, promote weed growth by making the beds of waterways more conclusive to weed growth. I have no doubt many of the Waikato Hydro Lakes experience worse weed problems now because of the newer species of fish in them and I also have no doubt that those trout fisheries have declined as a result of these fish along with many other practices and if we go back the Hydro system itself is the main impact that can never be righted. Let's not forget that the famous Huka Lodge near Taupo was established by Alan Pye as a world class dry fly destination in an era when trout in the river averaged 10lbs... every night the rise to huge hatches of Hydrosyce Colonica  brought these massive fish to the surface and maintained and increased their huge size. When the control gates were installed at the outlet of Lake Taupo the fluctuating river levels impacted on the insects, not the trout, but in turn reduced the fishery to one of being very run of the mill and at least a shadow of its former self. It's not always the direct impact on the trout themselves that causes a fishery to fail... one link in the chain can be enough.

 

I realize as SBeehre and Tore have said that no one wants the trout fisheries wiped out, but slowly, in the Northern part of the North Island, we can truthfully say that the amount of available trout fishing has declined markedly over the past decade or two. This has another effect of compressing the amount of angling pressure coming from our largest population base onto the good trout waters left in the area... this, in turn, has another impact on those fisheries.

 

Sbeehre is quite correct, if Doc existed back in the day the day trout would never have been released, but they were by both government agencies and Acclimatisation Societies. They were done with an aim of providing what had traditionally been an Upper Class" sport and making it available for all walks of life regardless of wealth or social status. That has become a tradition of this country and it should remain so. Harping back to that day and saying "They wouldn't be introduced" is a fairly lame excuse for poor angling behavior in relation to our current fisheries.

 

Not only do our trout fisheries provide a fine continuation of New Zealand's accepted and embraced outdoor sporting heritage but they provide a social mechanism of quite some import... Kids that experience the outdoors through hunting and fishing generally become more useful members of society, certainly more so than those who only experience playstaion, street corners and local graffiti competition. The trout fishery provides a method for teaching values, self sufficiency and self confidence and this Outdoor Heritage and the "can do" attitude it generates is what has, in large part, made this a great country with unique and internationally respected citizens. To do anything that erodes those opportunities is simply irresponsible.

 

Then we can look to this with the simple dollar generating capacity the fisheries have and provide to our nation in tourism dollars and we have something we should protect for financial, social and traditional reasons. None of these reasons can be held up as realistic arguments for coarse fishing or fisheries.

 

The Kiwi numbers in New Zealand are declining... this is, as we all know because of habitat depletion, mustelids and feline liberation, predation by canines etc. That the Kiwi may one day disappear and we know we will never eliminate cats, dogs, farming, stoats, ferrets etc... Does this mean we should adopt an irresponsible attitude to the cause? I live in Athenree (Near where you grew up fishing Sbeehre) and many of the places I walk into for Salt fly fishing are over DOC land where dogs are prohibited because of their potential damage to Kiwi populations there. If I adopted an attitude of "Well the predators are here to stay and the Kiwi are slowly declining so what the hell I'll take my dog fishing with me because Doc will never win the battle against the predators" then that would be a poor excuse for poor behavior, taking my dogs to those areas and possibly killing a Kiwi further thinking "well it's only one it won't really make a difference" then I would be being irresponsible and if you read of my prosecution in the paper you would think "What a W@ANKER"! and yet this attitude seems to be OK in relation to the subject we are discussing.

 

Trout may not be a native but they have become, over the last 120+ years, an integral part of the outdoor heritage of New Zealand and they should remain so for numerous reasons. Coarse fish will never become that and I do not believe they will ever represent to our country what trout do or offer. For those reasons alone every angler should do their bit, be it ever so small, to protect our fisheries... we should at least try. If that means killing Carp, we should do it because it is the law and it is the right thing to do. We should all be vigilant in protecting our resource and any promotion of a lax attitude is simply irresponsible. These same lax attitudes is why Didymo is now in 27 rivers in the South Island when two years ago it was in two. By then end of this summer God knows how many rivers will be infected and heaven help us it will probably reach the north... it will do so by slack attitudes.

 

I don't believe anyone in this thread believes, fundamentally, in anything else so just promoting an attitude of "it won't do any good so why bother" is simply, in my mind, just not good enough.

 

(Tore: Sorry I'm late... been fihsing....)

 

 

 

http://www.csiro.au/csiro/content/standard/ps27o.html - http://www.csiro.au/csiro/content/standard/ps27o.html

 

I don't think they are rubbish fish... I think they are a fine sporting fish from speaking to anglers from other parts of the world, some of who pursue them to the exclusion of anything else... However in New Zealand they are a noxious fish and do stand to have an impact...

 

Our Carp fishery is, in international terms, just another Carp fishery... but our trout fishery is truly one of the finest in the world.. I guess that is the kicker...

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with your enjoyment of Carp fishing and you should feel no need to apologise for it. I don't really, personally, have a problem with you letting your catch go in the water you caught it from except it's against regs to do so... My main issue would be if anyone promoted expanding the carp fishery or promoting their conservation...

 

If you are having fun with your fishing and not hurting anybody, bugger what anyone else thinks! Just be mindful that they are a noxious fish and that not everyone will share your joy...