Adam, raise some interesting points, I don't think that there are the numbers of black marlin, here in NZ as there were in the early days and I don't think its the methods of fishing that is the reason, Blacks will take a lure just like any fish will.

The reason I say this, is the 04 season was probably the best year in which you would of seen any numbers of Blacks caught, most if not all the marlin that were caught in the Tauranga , Whakatane waters were caught inside the 100m mark, mainly 75 to 85m, live baiting & trolling and there was a ****load of marlin caught (stripes that is).

With that amount of fishing pressure in shallow water, you would think there would of been a massive jump in stats towards black marlin sightings and hook ups.

I think that if your on a mission to catch a black you will catch one, but you would probably have more luck on a sword deep drifting a likely area.

Same thing really.

Quote: Originally posted by Saltiga on 14 June 2006

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 whats rule one BA

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Never do the horizontal Mamba with anyone crazier than yourself.

Since no one is crazier than BA rule 1 is superflous

On a more serious note Vanuatu seems to hold more blues than blacks and stripies come a distand third. Can one of you clever people explain the reasons why this might be?

Of the 9 fish I lost before finally getting a Black at least another two were called as blacks by kerren and the skipper Corky with the rest being Blues No stripies at all

Stripeys don't like it when their bath water gets too hot, I reckon. When I fished Phuket all the marlin were blacks, no stripeys and no blues (although the longliners fishing way offshore did pick up a few). 

Re targeting the buggers yes they will definitely eat lures, Alan Jorion's 1000 lb black came on a lure, tho you might get a few funny looks trolling big lures on heavy tackle close in... Bait fishing obviously works, its best if you're on a known fishy spot somewhere like the Astrolabe.. You can't catch what ain't there though, you guys would have a better idea than me what the odds really are. Personally I think I'd far rather target blue marlin, seems like you've got a better shot at hooking up, plus you could hook up with other stuff like stripeys, mahi, YFT etc.  Get a few mates together and the fuel costs become almost bearable. Just make sure that although they can crank in the 80 lb YFT that jumps the stinger lure or a 20 lb mahi, but when the long corner finally comes crashing down and the 80W goes into overdrive they get the hell out of your way!!

Quote: Originally posted by Saltiga on 14 June 2006

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 whats rule one BA

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Learn how to spell does.......Doesnt apply to BA

Just kidding BA.

Interesting stuff Roddy, the schools of Kahawai around the cape and off stevies may have decreased alot but during the season at times there are still good trev schools, english mack schools and large skippie schools which I would think would satisfy the odd Black. I guess with faster boats people generally shoot past these close areas and dont bother fishing for the "odd" Black, but Im pretty sure the numbers have decreased so maybe the other things you say are right and are the main factors.

Dustin, it is a lot easier to target Blues here you are right, some seasons(at times) and even last season for a few weeks I think Blue strikes almost out numbered Stripey strikes, we have alot of offshore canyons and seamounts that if there have been reports of Blues around then you can target them pretty easily(well as easy as targeting +500lb fish can be). But we have got +300kg Blues before but not a +300kg Black so that has become a target for me in our waters, an AC fish of 430kgs would do just fine.

Adam, this has been one of my interests over the last few years. Due to having to maximise fishing time we've been targeting the "money" fish. But as soon as my 'Big Wednesday" comes through, you'll be seeing me working in close from The Taheke to the Brett.

The fish are there and do get seen quite regularly during the season. Every year there is one or two pulled out of the Bay area, but most of these wouldn't be on record. Due to the distance to travel from Doves Bay to Paihia to weigh, they generally just end up in Ken Wrights smokehouse.The most recent being Aaron Simpsons' which was est.@ 180 to 190kg. Now for the record, he caught 8 stripies and 1 black all in the 90 to 110 line, pin on Howe.So, in respect to the figures, the odds weren't that bad.

Talking to the old charter skippers, like Roy Collett (Sapphire), the lines they use to run were way in close. Lion rock, Tapuaetahi, Hansens, nine pin, bird etc.. . I agree that the feed is not there like it use to be, but i also think that we're not productively and regularly fishing these areas enough to find the true numbers.

There are areas on the west coast which show great potential, and these i hope to get a good blast at this upcoming season.(not long now.....)

Yeah I heard Aaron got one on Donahues this year, I think about a week before we tagged one of similar size, he does real well in "Fisher2" aye, seems to fall over a marlin every time he goes out. How did Ken on the "Ilex" go this year?Or was he to busy smoking fish for Aaron. Roy Collett, hmmm I remember his daughter from School....hmmmmmm....well she was back then anyway. So you think maybe its an area thing, but up off Whangaroa there are still alot of slow boats that troll over the close grounds on the way out and in, just like they did back then such as "Diomedea", "Lady Margaret", "Lord Grant", "Little John" etc, yet when was the last time one of them got a Black in close, last may have been Lady Lucks 315kg fish on the North Ground in 96? Maybe Snooks is the man to see.

What boat do fish on Sumo?

Snooks is definately the man to see and Dossy Sanderson knows how the Whangaroa reefs work. Spent many hours picking peoples brains on this topic will get to put it in to action one day.

We have "strike one" but spent this year on the west coast on "mainlander" and was privileged to be part of the "got em on" escapades over there.

Fished with Aaron on it before talking me old man into buying it(cheaper that way).

Keep up the investigation on this topic, as i know it is a passion of a few of us.

By the way, i agree entirely about the fruitcake thing and his even nuttier breakdancing sidekick.

Yes apologies Kezz, I,ve seen your chandals... . What is your opinion on our numbers though. Although uncomparitive to the GBR, there seem to be places that do hold blacks,HicksBay? I recall a few horses  from that area in the not so distant past.

I wondered how long it would be before you chimmed in with some dribble about the Barrier reef Kezza. The problem is they are an addictive fish and this year brought back surpressed memorys of the Barrier reef and now the addiction has returned. 

PS I think more granders have been caught on swimming scad than any other bait. Elephant\peanuts I guess.

Yes it's all a matter of turning the vhf off and sticking to plan "A". I assume it would be a bit easier to act on a reported sighting first(reliable sources only).

Chris Brown, who skippers one of the Kings tours to the Brett, (also skippered Manana in the bay for years) was regularly seeing one in March. It was feeding like clockwork and when finaly getting a day off, fished the area  hard to no avail. 

..and yes Kezz, i think that sweet little spot shall require some attention.

Quote: Originally posted by Kezza on 15 June 2006

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In saying that I would also expect the average number of black girls caught in NZ to trend upwards should more effort from the fleet go in to targeting them such as splash and swimming natural baits over shallow reefs - when the water and bait conditions were suitable. Sure you might get lucky and find that needle in a haystack while trolling lures in stripey or blue country but to actively target them, as has been proven in recent times by anglers Jorion and Conner they do frequent kingfish laidened reef structures.

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 I'm sure that some of the reefs off the West Coast would also be likely spots.  A couple off Raglan come to mind that are often plagued with Kingfish.  But driving away from a hot stripey bite is something I still find hard to do!

    Cheers

       DA

Quote: Originally posted by Kezza on 15 June 2006
That is exactly how Capt. Smith got that awesome fish at/in the hole in the rock for Firman a few years back...he targetted that fish and nailed it.....perfect!

I understand Chris Brittin was hunting that fish as well....same source had given both of them the lo-down and the hounds were released!!

Reliable sources are worth their weight in smoked marlin!

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yes the talk around the bar of a big black seen by rec fishers up there who were being harrased by a black chasing there hooked kings traveled fast during the 2nd milinium tourny, there was infact talk of there being 2 of these big fish there, there was talk of Smithy going back to have a crack at the 2nd 1 but to no avail, he talks about it too on an Out doors show.

Kerran when you talking about breeding fish over here are they just not those which have spawned on the barrier reef and moved away?

I saw that video [cant think of the name ] put together by Dean Butler and a few others with Greg Norman as the main man on it talking about them and moving away once spawned. the same was in one of Malcom Florences vids they were going on tagged fish which were re caught....

makes one wonder though with the amount of structure we have here off shore that there is not a lot more of them caught more as you say by more or less coming across them and not targeting them.

have a few pics of blacks the grandies caught off simpsons and also miner reef.

simpsons almost every year holds a black or two, recon they are where you find them, would love to have a real crack at them but as has been said dam hard to shy away from biting stripies to target what just may be there and yeah dam good info needed to drop it all and have a go.

next season we will see, but like alot of others would love to just see one come in and take a skipped bait, probably why more have been caught in years gone by due to the now plastic lures rather than the big splashed kahawai and the like, and the less livies being used.

do you guys remember the 1 that was hooked off Major island i think it was and the guy fought it for hours and hours before they cut it loose, it was a huge story on 1 ZB it was a number of years ago infact think it was 1979-80???

i was at college at the time just a wee pup champing at the bit wanting to be there, oh the thrill of the chase...

Hmmm, I have been on one of those Kings tours to the Hole in the Rock and have seen the said fish with my very eyes.

It was very close in by the rocks and about 1 - 2m below the surface, right to the starboard of the boat.  Definately wasnt a stripy, and it was a horse of a fish. 

(This was last year in Feb) I dont know if anyone has caught it yet, or if it is still there??

It was funny because the American tourist on the boat were like, "Look at that big dolphin with the funny long nose!"

Very impressive sight.

I heard somewhere that livebaiting using a legal kingfish works well for them?

Very interesting topic Adam, keep this thread going!

Quote: Originally posted by Kezza on 15 June 2006

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"Kerran when you talking about breeding fish over here are they just not those which have spawned on the barrier reef and moved away?"

I don't think I mentioned breeding fish in NZ?..but the ones we get here are most likely the same that frequent the GBR but the key word in that train of thought was 'agregation'....

Churr

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sorry dude thought spawning aggregations and breeding fish was the same sort of thing,

it would be awesome to find such an area though, but what your saying with neddle in a haystack is quite true, you only have to look at the 361k one they got on silver fox to see that, that was a truely magnificant capture in the sea conditions and the 20mins it took to nail it, the firman 1 was great to see on the tv and smithy was as calm as ever especially with the amount of boats around him at the time.

Trenta, must've been frustrating. Big fish and no rod... Just goes to proove, perhaps, the regularity of the fish in certain areas. The one i was refering to was march this year, you saw one there last year, and Smithy got his one there the year before.

I think you'll hear plenty of other stories as well. But beware, as easy as a black been called for a dolphin, a dolphin may be called for a black!!?? 

So some areas to maybe target then in the Far North then:

In the BOI it seems Brett/Percey is a good bet were Smithy got his 406kg fish a few years back on a livebait. He also got a 333kg one on the Doreen livebaiting off waiweri rock and Bird rock would be another spot, Ive seen a few big tailers there(maybe not blacks tho).

Hansens I guess and of course Taheke which provided ACs 430kg fish on a lure. Wide of Taheke there is alot of foul around the 100m line and outside that is where John Coombes got a 315kg Black for his wife on 24kg using a skipbait in 95. The Ruahine is another likely spot although I dont know of any recently taken there. The North Ground is where Lady Luck got a 315kg fish in 96, that was one of the fish that started the Hooker Ghost craze.

I lost a Black as an angler fishing with John Coombes on the Cavalli Seamounts, that was a +200kg fish but we hooked it on 10kg line so our chances were never good, that was on the Pacific Baitfish. I know of a few caught here in recent years but hardly a spot you would go to target Blacks.

The largest Black I have seen was in 60m off Berghans feeding on skippies, looked like an Orca to start with, I know of a few spotted here but dont know of any captures.

The Garden patch has produced quite a few, we hooked one there and lost it, John Coombes lost what he reconds was a grander Black there after the line parted from a 6hr fight on 24, that also was a Hooker Ghost Lure. Dave Arrell tagged a 350kg Black for his wife here recently too on a small green moldcraft. Marlin Magic got a 408kg Black on a livebait somewhere out there too about 5years ago.

The foul off Parenga in very close around the snapper foul is an area that Snooks reconds holds Blacks. Wide of there is the area where the 2 Blacks I have seen caught in NZ waters came from, within 2 miles of each other, one on a fruitsalad and the other poo brown but both only 180kg fish so not the target size.

Surville Cliffs is another likely spot, this is where Celeste got a 328kg Black in 30 odd meters of water, on a Lumo Sprocket in the mid 90's. A number of others caught here too but I dont know of any large ones.

King Bank has also produced a few recently, I know of at least 4 comming from there this year but again only 180kg fish and at least 3 last year. Dont know of any big ones tho, largest is only 250kgs that I know of.

No real pattern, which makes them hard to target I guess, esp when numbers are so low here.

Im sure the Ahipara Banks and other westcoast reefs may hold them too but I have no ideas on that.

Sounds like you got some great spots to try Adam - is there any time of year or water temps etc that are better than others?  Would there be much in the way of desirable bycatch whilst live baiting with big baits ie big makos, threshers maybe?  What leader setups and class tackle would you go with?

Actually mate, I really would like to read your thoughts on strategy for targeting blue marlin, last year I started fishing a place that it would seem many of your strategies would be very transferable.  but that would be a whole nother thread in itself.. (wink)

cheers dustin

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Time of the year is another thing that probably makes them hard to target, theres no pattern there either I dont think. The one we hooked on 10 was on the 2nd of Dec and the Blacks seem to quite often(often maybe the wrong word) turn up early on in the season. But there was a 444kg fish caught off Whakatane years ago in the last few days of May so they are there up until at least then I guess. They also dont seem to care to much about water colour and even the temp can be in the low 19s so maybe SSTs arent that helpful either. I dont know targeting them may prove difficuilt, maybe its just better to be lucky than good with these fish.

PS I should have mentioned the Shallow Patch in my above post too. 

As for desirable bycatches, Stripeys frequent all these areas at times. Makos and Threshers are really not too desirable as a by catch in my view.

I guess we will see what next season brings

Talking of early black marlin captures John Going on the Kitty Vane got one of 688 lb on November 12th 1974 if memory serves me correctly out at the Poor Knights.

If I was to go seriously targeting a big Black marlin in the Bay Of Plenty I would put in a lot of time working Astrolabe Reef and Schooner Rocks, but only if there is good water and the the Kahawai schools are there. Another place would be off the back of Whale Island when the skippies and or meatballs are happening, here I would get the biggest skippy I could or a 10 - 15kg yellowfin, every year there are some huge blacks seem in this area. Also every year there are a number of large blacks seen down off the Motu and all the way to Waihau Bay.

I really would like to live troll a skippy about 4 or 5 kg around those meat balls, may be very surprised what you get, wouldn't say no to a 80 - 100kg yellowfin, although the bronzies could be a problem.

Quote: Originally posted by Roddy on 16 June 2006

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AC, and Adam,

Have there been many blacks caught up at the Three Kings ?

Roddy

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Quote: Originally posted by sumo the fishwrestler on 16 June 2006

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Yes Adam, the shallow patch and under the light at Karikari are another area of sightings and hook-ups. Once again, the relationship with rat kings, or areas that hold these, seems to be more than coincidental.

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Back in the 90s I saw two large Blacks in close to Great Barrier - one in 40 meters off Miners Head during the Fitzroy One Base (calm glassy afternoon in late Jan with a lot of bait around) and another in the late 90s off Katherine Bay one morning when we were motoring out towards the Mokes. The one thing in common with both sitings was that both (or the same) fish was tailing with the sea, although I guess that is pretty common with a pelagic. Also had another 'possible' out the back of the Needles when a very large black sickle fin appeared in the set and went from lure to lure before disappearing. 

If you are going to target a Black live baiting, what would be your set up.

Have any of you guys used single strand wire, as a Black has a very heavy bill.

Would of thought, a wind on set up with a short length of single strand , would be the go.

How do they do this in Cairns.

The Kings does hold Blacks Roddy, Primetime got a couple this year and Harlequin got one too this year all on the King bank I think, all only 180kg fish though. There were a few taken up there last year too, Primetime tagged a 250kg Black then on the King Bank aswell, Reel Passion got a 330kg one on the Hook which is 15miles north of Tom Bowling(not really the Kings) a year or so back. I havent heard of any large ones from up on the banks though.

Thats a Cairns rig Mangre, windon with a short 040 galv single strand wire trace.

When I fished out of Port Stephens the skipper told me that the Blacks don't raise as well to the teasers as the Stripeys or Blues.

For Blacks in close skipping Gars or Macs or just towing live baits(one on the downrigger two off the riggers) was the thing most of the charter boats were doing.

Quote: Originally posted by Marligator on 16 June 2006

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If I was to go seriously targeting a big Black marlin in the Bay Of Plenty I would put in a lot of time working Astrolabe Reef and Schooner Rocks, but only if there is good water and the the Kahawai schools are there. Another place would be off the back of Whale Island when the skippies and or meatballs are happening, here I would get the biggest skippy I could or a 10 - 15kg yellowfin, every year there are some huge blacks seem in this area. Also every year there are a number of large blacks seen down off the Motu and all the way to Waihau Bay.

I really would like to live troll a skippy about 4 or 5 kg around those meat balls, may be very surprised what you get, wouldn't say no to a 80 - 100kg yellowfin, although the bronzies could be a problem.

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Astrolabe and Tuhua reef at Mayor Island plus Schooner rocks would be my best bet for big blacks. Seem to be one or two lost there every year. Crack out a over limit sized kingfish as a swimmer bait and slow troll these around all day, would be the best bet. Have a smaller bait for the stripy's just so you don't miss out. One thing i have noticed is there is not alot of blacks hooked in these areas on a regular basis. Alot of boats fish these spots with live kahawai during the year. They come home empty handed many times. The few blacks that are hooked are often on 50lb gear, no match for the 300kg+ blacks that tend to die after the 5hr mark on such tackle. I have seen a few good blacks around astrolabe including the 424kg fish that Crow's Nest caught. I was out the day before and saw that fish or what i thought was that fish. Another black i saw hooked was on a small boat this fish was 300kg+ and sucked down a live kahawai only 100m from where my baits where (gutted). I watched as it tail walked past my boat. The fish had just about spooled them. It had a huge belly of line out, that had them down to 100m of line left on their 50w before they could get the other bait in. It was still jumping only 200m away from them. The line in the end couldn't handle it and popped! And there i was with two baits and 80w's waiting for that fish...bummer! From memory that season saw at least four epic 4hr plus battles from what most think where big black marlin. I guess if you put in the time with big baits and stuck it out in the area you will be rewarded with a bite. But man it is hard to stay when others are doing well on the stripy's and blues out further. Comes down to how much you want to catch one really.

Good luck if you do, but going to Aussie is a better bet haha!