A few years of exported fillets. Then back to the 1980s -90s ,depleted fishery when a legal snapper in the manukau was a rarity.

And the fishery was just begining to recover so well.

More anti commercial B/S from Legasea, the science is so much better these days than what there was pre QMS and even in the years following its introduction. Yea so what if commercial have had increases they have also had some decreases, what this photo does show is that recreational have also had increases in to their allowance. FFS recreatioanl arent happy  matter which govenrment is in power, I can remember a lot of you saying when Labour got in there would be changes, well it didnt take long for a lot to bitch & moan about their fisheries minister duiring their 6 distructive years. Recreational contribute next to nothing towards fishery management but you lot sure as hell have a lot to say and in my view Legaseas anti commercial propaganda have all of you brainwashed into thinking that NZ fishery should be recreational only when the fact its a shared one, commercial, Iwi and yes recreational.

The snapper fishery is declining and that's a pretty big increase Tzer.  Recreational anglers certainly have an impact on fish stocks and I would guess there's a high level of fishing crimes committed by rec fishers. Most recreational fishers struggle to identify all but the most common species of fish so yeah - there wouldn't be a lot of knowledge on fisheries management.

It went pretty much like this:

Not specifically Opito Bay more the wider area. 

Im sure most commercial fishers are good blokes  .... but I think their industry attitude is selfish and greedy

I think its wrong that ****loads of crayfish and Paua are exported for huge prices that drive up the cost to a Kiwi bloke. I have only once in my 61 years seen paua  for sale in NZ ( vacuum packed and 60 bucks each ) which is a shame for us disabled enough to prevent our gathering our own . A percentage of that commercial catch should have to be sold domestically at prices that allow the average Kiwi family to put a feed on the table . Just coz you can export a cray for a hundred bucks doesnt mean a Kiwi should have to pay that for it at home .

 The fish around NZ belong to us all and as such  recreational  ( should be called  subsistence ) fishers should have 1st dibbs at the stocks   and then  and only then should the commercial guys be allowed  in ,  I mean  at the end of the day they are not catching fish for their own use , they are selling our fish to line their own pockets  while we recreational fisher are doing it hard trying to find legal fish in some areas.

 I also think that those caught  breaking the rules , specially large scale or repeat offenders  should be  delt with far more strongly . We need to send these peeps to jail  

Imagine if we bit the bullet and built up biomass of each species to 60% then managed it at that level. It would benefit all including preventing stress issues like kina barrens etc. Rec, Coms, Charter all benefit. Manage it at fingernail levels one bad event and we are decades to fix situation if we can. 

I just came back from Fiji in the weekend and had a day fishing. Caught 2 tuna in one day. Showed the crew pics at what I catch 20 minutes away from my house and they were blown away. Comms have wiped out large parts of their fishery 

Especially when the data that these decisions on is flawed - the fact that wildlife by-catch/ death reports have been incorrect reported until actually monitored.

The data used cannot be trusted until a robust monitoring system is in place.

Same story in Rarotonga where their leaders sold their fisheries to overseas interests.

The general population did not do well out of the deal, especially the charter industry, however, their leaders now have flash houses and cars with not a care in the world.

Mud just doesnt appear and if anyone had watched "Ocean bounty" 3 or 4 weeks ago would of seen that storm water/pollution in waterways was/is a big concern for Ministry of Fisheries Shane Jones.

Hope its that simple.

Incidently,what caused toheroa demise.

Overfishing and greedy human behavior from all sides of the ethnic spectrum.

From memory, a company was scooping them up and canning them for soup or some such thing.

We used to get them, Tuatua and Pipi along Paekakariki beach up to Waikanae then stop at Paremata on the way home for Cockles.

I can still taste those fritters now. Yum.

Yes environmental factors undoubtedly have an impact on some localised beds.

But when the commercial sector found the two "mother beds" in the outer Gulf between Colville, Great Barrier and Little Barrier that are/were responsible for seedind the vast majority of the scallops in the upper North Island instead of protecting those beds they immediately increased the commercial take by 1477% (not a typo and not missing a decimal point) from 22t to 325t. 

When it became very obvious that these beds were being decimated and becoming unsustainable, they refused to cut the limits, and pressure shifted to the other beds around the North Island as they struggled to fulfil their entire quota.

Then when it was patently obvious that the fishery was in collapse, the response was to close the entire east coast of the North Island, EXCEPT the two "mother beds", effectively excluding recs from the fishery while they could keep pillaging it. This was of course inevitably followed by the complete closure of the fishery once they'd had one final season, effectively wiping out the last of those deep beds in the outer Gulf.

If you ever needed an example of how blatantly corrupt the system is at times, this is it - the management of the East Coast scallop fishery since 2011 is one of the most shameful examples of greed and mismanagement you'll ever come across. 

To put it in perspective, this would be the equivalent of the commercial sector stumbling onto a previously unknown spawning ground for snapper for example way off the back of Great Barrier, where the vast majority of the snapper in the North Island were being seeded. Instead of protecting it, they increased the snapper quota by 15X. And then when the fishery was obviously in collapse after a few years of pillaging their breeding grounds, the response was to ban all snapper fishing in the North Island apart from in this small area where all of the snapper were breeding, and continuing to trawl them until there was none left so they're forced to completely ban snapper fishing indefinitely.

Sounds ridiculous right? 

That's consistent with my memory along with this image of a commercial operator ignoring the Customary Rahui because legally they could.

Source https://newsroom.co.nz/2022/03/29/forest-bird-scallop-fishery-closures-fall-short/" rel="nofollow - here . Apparently the pirate flag wasn't intended to be inflammatory - he regularly flew it  . 

I'm not bagging all commercials but this situation was far from their best work if they wanted to demonstrate any form of guardianship of the resource or respect for the community's wishes and tarnished their image in the minds of many. In my view lessons should be learnt from it.

 Makes sad reading Helmsy,    somebody had to be getting back handers  , blatant corruption and deliberate mismanagement  at the expence of  rec fishers , and all Kiwi's ( except them that robbed us )

Put simply, the bureaucrats who provide advice seem to be struggling to understand that hammering food sources to the point of collapse will affect the food chain. As a percentage, the jack mac increase isn't massive but the TACC is already greater than what's being caught  - (51.3K vs 43.7K tonnes).

Is there is message in there somewhere and is that one of the factors causing many snapper in the Hauraki Gulf to be starving?

The Minister can make better decisions, no question. Taking low value baitfish and exporting it for jack all isn't clever and never has been.

More info on https://fs.fish.govt.nz/Page.aspx?pk=5&tk=1&fpid=50" rel="nofollow - Fisheries NZ here if you're interested.

https://www.fishing.net.nz/fishing-news/The-price-of-bait-could-skyrocket/

They're doing what they're allowed to do and the issue is the abysmal decision-making by those in charge. Whether that's bad advice or for any other reason, who would know

I think you may have slightly misread those figures Grunta, the quota is actually 51,300 tonnes, a frightening amount.

And to make it worse, MPI openly admit that they have no idea what the impacts are - the below extract taken from the May 2024 document on the fishery

That's a truly horrifying sentence to read in an MPI document about a fishery that they've just increased the quota for

If what they were doing was not illegal, then no problem

Just because the majority do not have the balls to ignore something that is not legal for fear of retribution and/or labeling does not make that operator a criminal or moron.

You should be laying the blame for this squarely at the bureaucrats' feet.

If people considered a rahui was needed, then after some investigation a legal no take notice should/would/could have been implemented.

Just out of interest, how do you know that operator was not a NZer of Maori descent with a valid permit to fish the area.

Even in a non-binding, not legal, voluntary implementation.

The effect on the eco system of extracting, for example,between 5000 and 10000 ton of  jack mackeral  from jm1 and about 30000 ton from jma3 per year over the past decade is unknown..

That is beyond stupidity. Note word" about" Indicates they dont really know true tonnage.  

And what about the plundering of the Blue Mackeral  off the N.E coast.  They dont know much about them either.Used to feature in my catch. Now absent. A great eating fish.

I would say that the effect of plundering the bait fish ,or any pelargic predator would be obvious.  Remove a segment of the fishery in great numbers ,you in effect remove the fishery,many fish species right through the food chain.,so complex. And all else that depends on it. Dolphins ,whales ,sharks,birds. The gannets ,terns ,shearwaters and the blue penguins..etc. etc. 

All are effected. A natural fishery is well balanced. What happens and will happen to that balance.?

Where is the management in all that. And they call it the Quota management system. Both the words quota and management seem highly suspect. 

And system.- where is that.

I was involved in the last review of the puka fishery - because I hasd been hammering local MPI over the s...t state of it. It turns out in something like 40 yrs of quota allocations, they had NEVER done a survey of the fishery. Sounds absurd? That is the fact. And they happily allocated comm quota beyond what was actually being caught. Then reduced quota when the catch continued to decline - but never below what the actual Comm catch rate was.

Then the Comms blamed the recs for the decline of the fishery. Really? I was at that meeting.

Sustainable management - we are seriously dreaming. Fish it til it is stuffed, then claim something else is to blame.

This is what happened to the W coast NI snapper fishery - trashed by Comms. Sorry - but true. So closed for the last few decades - except for recs. The fishery has bounced back big time. While Rec fishing continued. The last review that let Comms back in this yr urged a cautious approach/tonnage. May be able to sustain more - but based on last experience - watch and see the effect over next few yrs. All out the window with Jones - hiked it up to what 'may' be sustainable. 

There is something seriously smelly about our 'sustainable' fishery management.

Alan 

What did 6 years under Labour do for the fisheries. I recall everyone hear saying prior to Labour getting in that they were going to be the saviour of recreational fihsing, well within a few months most were bitching that the new minister was no better. Lot of so called experts here that think they know better than the scientists.

Increasing quota when it's not being filled already and then stating we have no idea as to the affect of it, is gross incompetence.

But I agree completely that Labour have been just as bad at not managing our fisheries as this lot. No party has even come close to managing it. Until it's managed properly we will always have rec's and commercials at loggerheads. The one exception seems to be the Fiordland cray fishery, why can't we use that success as inspiration? It is a wonderful case of commercial leading the way, it's a shame the lesson from that hasn't been taken.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. 

If I was doing something adversely affecting a resource I claim to care about, I'd feel it's only right that I stop. Otherwise I open myself up to being called a hypocrite at best.

I never called or inferred anyone was a moron or a criminal. In fact I made it clear that they legally could do what they were doing. My point was that they damaged the sector's reputation in the eyes of many as being committed to ensuring the future of the resource.  

Yes a formal closure was being sought and eventually implemented but in the eyes of many, including the local Iwi, it was taking far too long so the community took the initiative.

There was no mention of the Iwi granting any customary permits to anyone. In fact the chances of them issuing one (especially 

to a commercial operator) given their tone at the time would be hard if not impossible to imagine.

More anti commercial B/S from Legasea, the science is so much better these days than what there was pre QMS and even in the years following its introduction. Yea so what if commercial have had increases they have also had some decreases, what this photo does show is that recreational have also had increases in to their allowance. FFS recreatioanl arent happy  matter which govenrment is in power, I can remember a lot of you saying when Labour got in there would be changes, well it didnt take long for a lot to bitch & moan about their fisheries minister duiring their 6 distructive years. Recreational contribute next to nothing towards fishery management but you lot sure as hell have a lot to say and in my view Legaseas anti commercial propaganda have all of you brainwashed into thinking that NZ fishery should be recreational only when the fact its a shared one, commercial, Iwi and yes recreational.

It is absurd that one of the rationales put forward by the commercial sector for the increase in TACC for SNA8 was that they were struggling to get their Gurnard and John Dory quota without over catching their snapper quota. My understanding is that the gurnard and JD fishery on the west coast is in a pretty poor state (Smudge will correct me if I am wrong) and this large increase in SNA8 TACC is only going to make this worse. Yes the SNA 8 fishery can probably handle this increase in quota, but I am not sure that the other "by-catch" species caught in the trawl net fishery can handle it.

I have come to the conclusion that a fishery will never be sustainably managed until it collapses and becomes uneconomic to fish. It is only at this point will the managers put meaningful measures in place to allow a rebuild, examples are the Grand Banks Cod Fishery which has taken 30 odd years to rebuild but it is now fishable again, West Coast USA Broadbill, Pacific and Atlantic Bluefin Tuna, Southern Bluefin Tuna. Noting that it is just about impossible to fish a species to extinction in the sea and there will still be a breeding population left, just not economic to chase. Sadly with such rebuilds the recreational sector will often be pretty much excluded from the benefits of the rebuild and it will mostly be allocated to the commercials.

 

Firstly, my apologies, you are correct, I was using literary license so to speak.

"There was no mention of the Iwi granting any customary permits to anyone. In fact the chances of them issuing one (especially 

to a commercial operator) given their tone at the time would be hard if not impossible to imagine."

Time will tell and we will see.

Take care.

Vance, Im fully aware that the increase in recreatioanl is an allownace on paper and at no time did I infer otherwise. Dress it up however you like with words but until recreational catches are recorded to the same level as commercial then we will never know just what the recreatinal take is, at best recreational catches are only a best guess esitimate, funny how the likes of Legasea reject commercial figures but maintain recreational catch reporting is accurate. The theory that recreational will go out more often is just conjecture on your part, doesa smoker cut back on what they smoke just because the price of a packet goes up I dont think and I would say the same would be true fishes.

Recreational will always look to blame others for their poor indiviual catches and Legasea/NZSFC do a very good job of promoting this anti commercial sentiment, which is one of the main resaons I do not support them.

Why is it absurd that one of the ratiionals put forward by commercial for an increase in snapper because they connot fill their quota, should commercial be stopped from targeting Gurnard becuase they are catching to much snapper yet if they dont catch their quota they are still have to pay levies on uncaught quota species. 

Has anyone thought to think that one of the reasons the likes of gurnard/john dory are hard to catch is because of too much snapper and not commercial activities, we all know snapper are a predatory species and their rebuild has been to successful thereby pushing other species out.

Also LegaSea/NZSFC are not anti-commercial at all, they are anti the QMS and the landlord quota owners who are controlling FNZ and the lousy job it is doing for the commercial fisherman who are actually out there doing the fishing, they are the poor buggers suffering. 

Cost is not an issue,its a hobby not a means to feed families,We take what we need + a bit for nieghbours as most is given away. If we get limit of 2 of us fishing we might keep 3 or 4 rest given away.

as for less fishing.Maybe we are returning to pre covid.remember no overseas travel and plenty brought new vessels,now market flooded with 18 month old boats.

Funny how you say not anti commercial but methods used. Sam Woolford constanly bangs on about how sustainable leigh fisheries is longlining,but fails to mention owned by Foodstuffs who also use contracted sieners/trawlers about 6 on contract.

Think you said ask "smudge" about over the bar fishing how the numbers arent great.Yet a those who use port waikato,fishing near karitohahi beach have no issue getting fish. Bit like Kawau island vs Firth of thames.Almost gauranttee fish at the farms.

This approach has been tried overseas and it just does not work for a number of reasons, you would only get a very poor % of fishers using it, also some would only report their good catches, others their poor catches, some would falsify their catches. This what they found ovewrseas. 

As I said you can dress it up all you like but at the end of the day no one truely knows what the recreational or customary for that matter take is and you wont shift my opinion on that.

Legasea/NZSFC are anti commercial, you only have to look at the B/S propaganda crap that is posted time & time again on their Facebook page and website. All posts are placed up with the intention of inciting hate from its followers, in some cases the post may be genuine to promote good discussion but within a few comments it soon deteriates into a hate fest on commercial and a lot can be personal. Those running the page do nothing to moderate these hateful comments either.

I will leave it there so we will just have to agree to disagree on how we view the state of the countries fishery.

LegaSea are in regular contact with numerous owner/operator commercial fisherman who in the vast majority say the QMS is not fit for purpose anymore, they are barely making a living. They can't come out publicly in support of LegaSea/NZSFC as they are usually catching fish for a large quota holder (landlord).