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circle hook query

Printed From: The Fishing Website
Category: Saltwater Fishing
Forum Name: The Briny Bar
Forum Description: The place for general chat on saltwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=136752
Printed Date: 08 Oct 2022 at 4:31am


Topic: circle hook query
Posted By: Alan L
Subject: circle hook query
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 7:24am
Have posed this Q before, but no clear answer.
So the hook is supposed to work by slipping out and around the corner of the mouth.
But surely this can only work if the gape of the hook is facing outwards. If the hook was lying the opposite way - gape pointing inwards, you would not expect it to roll out and hook.
So that should lead to a 50% hook up rate?

I have a mate in Vtu right now trying my long bridle/circle hook rig. The bridle is the length of the fish. He had 9 hits and no hook ups y/day (YF).  Not being there, hard to assess what is happening, but I do wonder how the circle hook is supposed to score better than 50%.
Alan


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Replies:
Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 8:25am
If the line enters the eye of the hook from the gape side of the hook then as the hook or line contacts the corner of the fishs' mouth, it will lead to the hook being presented the right way. That's why it's so important for the fish to swallow the bait before you try to set the hook. '

The thing with J hooks is that they can quite likely present the hook away into on empty space in a fishs' mouth.

That's my theory anyway. 


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 11:06am
Yep.
It is so importantthat the hook is attached to the trace the wrong way and when tied just looks wrong. (hangs inwards, doesnt present outwards)

Also as smudge says, you dont pull on a bite...
You let the fish pick it up and swim away then eat it.. depending on season, how many and how big the fish are below depends on how far you let the fish swim with its prize.
Winter and lazy feed summer can be 15 /20 m free line.. Then lightly load, If the load stays, now lift the rod hard and solid .. like seeing in your head that hook roll and catch ... without ripping the mouth  on say a JD or trev. DO NOT JERK as with J

Now If trolling, which I think Alan is asking...

Neighbour does a lot, and gets results...
Was chatting with him the other day about his 250+ catch, and he shows off his home tied rig, and how tied the squid etc
Hes said just use 2 old school 'shark' J hooks
 Which is pretty much what we do if trolling , or casting sb (a J hook) into a boil up and wind in. 
Casting my home made re curve/ flasher stray lines doesnt work well at all.
 Thu they work real well straying on the drift.


Posted By: Denny Boy
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 11:36am
Here's my tuppence...I've used every type of hook in existence over the years and I now don't use anything but circle hooks. Also I use a bigger hook say 6 baro when I'm around the smaller school snapper as they can be a painful bait stealer but can be caught easier on a smaller hook too of any type. The theory is that if they swallow a circle hook there is a much lesser chance of them getting gut-hooked and the hook comes back out and lip hooks them. I've found them way better and the mortality rate is only 20% of what it was. Sure there will be the odd one that plays hari kari with the bait but it can be drastically reduced and with that I don't think I catch any less fish. Also as mentioned above do not jag them on a bite as they are designed to self-catch when they pull away. I've tried to educate people on my boat not to do that but the adrenalin rush I suppose takes over?


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 12:19pm
OK - usually used (gamefishing ) on live baits.
If I am towing something - it will still be a bait - live or dead.
Steps - I use a double J hook (one up one down) on near all my towed lures. way to go.
Hook ups -yep - always let them run. Often 50m of line gone, before pressure on. Sometimes they stop, then run again. I never strike - let the fish do the work. Just ease some weight on and see if hooked. 
But I will have to check myself as to which way the hook sits. I crimp them - in a small loop. They hang free. Maybe I should be tying them - from the inside of the eye - making them sit right. That may get a bit problematic on say 200lb trace.
Not sure how my mate in Vtu is rigging them. Will find out.
But the inside lay of the gape is what I am used to on my circle ledger rigs also. looks all wrong but works. I don't use anything else either.
But my crimping of the game traces may be an issue to check out. Thanks guys.
Alan


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Posted By: Tzer
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 1:23pm
Alan, I suspect your bridle is too long try shortening your bridle length up quite a bit. Fish are taking your bait in but not the hook,.


Posted By: Fish Addict
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 2:00pm
Having 9 hits and missing them all would suggest something is clearly wrong.  Could be the way he has rigged the baits or his technique.  
My first thought was the same as Tzer's.  Having said that if you successfully use the long bridle then it may be more of a technique issue.
Having the line enter the circle hook from the gape side is a comment you hear regularly however I do wonder whether this is really as relevant when fishing for pelagics.  Some  years ago I had this discussion with a commercial longline skipper.  They targeted BFT and swords 200kms plus off the WA coast.  The longline hooks they were using all had a solid ring through the eye of the circle hook, making them free swinging.  Baits were whole fish hooked through the nose.  As always, there's more than one way to skin a cat.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 2:21pm
I messed around with a snapper rig with a swinging recurve hook. It worked but .. 

I dont know how it works on game leaders but the bridles i see used have the hook sitting on the bait fish


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 3:56pm
As I have said before I have never game fished or crimped, and know next to nothing to nothing.
 
I have put  the trace thru my recurves (and J s) and then put thru the loops for a dropper loop knot
 This has the re curve hang free, not the wrong way...and they do not work well doing so. I have also  uni ed recurves (hung) to the top of  the eye and again seem to very very hit in miss.
To hang the recurve on a say dropper loop, you put the loop thru the back of the eye... what you would think be the wrong side..
Where as a J you go down from top or front side.
And if going to snell type knot the hook... a J goes straight down, then the snell.
 A re curve goes back up the backside Then snelled.

Also watch as to which way up wind the snell type knot around...the part of the trace , above the hook, and as goes down around the shaft must go under the part of the hook eye with NO join.
So snell a J will have the  turns the opposite direction to a re-curve.

This also screwed me yrs ago when 1st used recurves.. thought was knot failing, but when tested many times, eventually tested it loaded unloaded  repeatedly, it got weakened where rubbed against where the hook eye met the shaft .
Never had an issue since.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 24 May 2022 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

I have a mate in Vtu right now trying my long bridle/circle hook rig. The bridle is the length of the fish. He had 9 hits and no hook ups y/day (YF).  Not being there, hard to assess what is happening, but I do wonder how the circle hook is supposed to score better than 50%.
Alan


Alan, I suspect your bridle is too long try shortening your bridle length up quite a bit. Fish are taking your bait in but not the hook,.
This is why fishing is never boring. I hardly fish exactly the same 2 days in a row - esp gamefishing. Always trying to change the odds. But he is using my bridle rig - which I have evolved to. The bridle is as long as the fish. Reason being they always turn the fish and swallow head first. Many missed hook ups (J and circle) I am sure were because the hook was getting squashed against the flank of the fish - short bridle. So evolved to the point where the circle is by the tail of the fish (as swallowed). He has had some decent success this way. Few weeks ago got 2 YF like that and no one else landed anything. When it works it works well - but there is some other factor in here that is confounding the hook up rate. With short rigs I have had a lot of hits that never translated to hook ups. Trying to change the odds. Must be able to improve on that. But you can imagine - say a bridle half the length of a skippy - fish gobs it down - the hook is half way along the fish. Put some tension on to set the hook - often when they feel that they spit the fish. So you need the hook to set immediately. If the hook is near the tail - it should be the first thing to catch on the way out - as soon as the line pulls tight?
Wish I knew everything about this stuff. Even something would help sometimes.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: scuzzymoto
Date Posted: 25 May 2022 at 11:45am
keep your circle hooks - prefer the Mutsu style left hand off set- most hooks are right hand off set( facing the barb towards you)- old guy told me once( good old days of WSAC) a blue cod always spins one way ( same as a drain) need opposite off set - not saying its correct but Mutsu hooks always catch the fish in corner of the mouth or the bottom jaw 

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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled” Mark Twain


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 25 May 2022 at 11:52am
On the rare occasions I use circle hooks (i.e. the rare occasions I use bait), I prefer non-offset hooks. It seems to me that the offset is going to be in the wrong direction 50% of the time. Not a scientifically proven theory! 


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 25 May 2022 at 3:33pm
I think any off set is useful.
I have had them hook up further down the gob. It is like a 2nd chance of snagging them. I don't mind if I snag them left or right.
I use BKK slim circle hooks (#10). They are nice hooks. Caught plenty on them. Can't remember which way offset.
So Fish Addict is full of endless bright ideas - has waaay too much time on his hands. But has suggested snelling a 2nd hook above the circle hook. I can see a plan hatching.
If my mate in Vtu does not give it a go, I will - July.A new cunning plan is born.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 25 May 2022 at 6:26pm
On the rare occasions I use circle hooks (i.e. the rare occasions I use bait), I prefer non-offset hooks. It seems to me that the offset is going to be in the wrong direction 50% of the time. Not a scientifically proven theory

There maybe something in that ..
 Have wondered abstractly why one way and not the other.. made in nthern hemispere maybe?? dunno.
 I aways had a problem simply flicking the hook out like they do on TV and some of the crew..
So have gone to no offset, doesnt seem to effect catch rate..and still cant flick the damn hook outAngry

But has suggested snelling a 2nd hook above the circle hook.

 My straylines have a J no knot snelled above...and when looking at m8s very knowledgeable and  generational experienced off shore rig( mentioned above) rig I commented at the time its basically an over grown version of my stray line.. except its all crimped.


Posted By: Snappa Geoff
Date Posted: 25 May 2022 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by scuzzymoto scuzzymoto wrote:

keep your circle hooks - prefer the Mutsu style left hand off set- most hooks are right hand off set( facing the barb towards you)- old guy told me once( good old days of WSAC) a blue cod always spins one way ( same as a drain) need opposite off set - not saying its correct but Mutsu hooks always catch the fish in corner of the mouth or the bottom jaw 
Good choice Scuzzy, tried the lot over the years and have found the Mutsu the strongest and best hook up rate on the Big Snaps. I run the big 32mm size on my strayline rigs! Like you say 99% of the time the Snaps gets hooked in the corner of the mouth. Steps to get the circles out quickly if releasing or keeping a fish push hard on the back of the hook eye with one of your thumbs! If that fails, pliers....Beer


Posted By: waynorth
Date Posted: 25 May 2022 at 7:51pm
Alan its worth persisting with that long bridle rig - makes a lot of sense to me. Nathan from BAF posted a how-to video showing the same rig which reached the tail of a medium sized kahawai. His explanation was much as you've posted above, & he/Milan certainly caught the odd kingfish, albeit not trolling. Your mate might need to refine a few things to make it work when trolling. If he snells the circle hook, try crimping it free-swinging. Make sure there's heaps of dropback so the fish can get the bait and hook fully in its mouth, and the slack line streaming back along its body, before any weight comes on. 20m wouldn't be excessive imho. 

Check the hook gape too. I use Korean hooks from Hooker Tackle- excellent hooks btw - and my preferred 15/0 circle has a larger gape (22mm) than the 16/0 (20mm). 

Keep us posted - the long bridle is an interesting deviation from sop.


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treat fish like fish


Posted By: kimber7wsm
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 6:57am
Matt Watson did a video about circle hooks and the importance of snelling. Apparently an experienced captain told him to it to increase hook up. He didn't for a years but once he did he became a believer.
Maybe something in that?
I noticed that when towing they employ a massive amount of slack line between the rod and the release clip. But from what you're saying you give them 30-50m of slack, so it look's like you're doing that right. Is your mate? 


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 7:40am
The baits aren't being towed. These are livies being drifted.
He is using my BKK #10s (I left him with my spares). But I will check the gape size comparison. They don't make a 12 AFAIK. I have looked before. It may be the gape is just too small for big fish. I have caught plenty on these hooks, but it is possible the gape is just a bit small and flicks off the gob on the way out. You can imagine that happening quite easily if there is a small gap between the point of the hook and the shank and the corner of the mouth is about the same thickness.
Thanks
Lots to work on. By the time I retire from fishing and end up in some rest home, I will know everything. Just a few years too late.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 8:09am
Steps to get the circles out quickly if releasing or keeping a fish push hard on the back of the hook eye with one of your thumbs! If that fails, pliers....Beer
Yerp on pliers.. there is a set long nose  ring/crimpers in the drain  a hole made to suit the pleirs back of the bait board, and bait knife sheaths attached each side of the bait board.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Snappa Geoff Snappa Geoff wrote:

Originally posted by scuzzymoto scuzzymoto wrote:

keep your circle hooks - prefer the Mutsu style left hand off set- most hooks are right hand off set( facing the barb towards you)- old guy told me once( good old days of WSAC) a blue cod always spins one way ( same as a drain) need opposite off set - not saying its correct but Mutsu hooks always catch the fish in corner of the mouth or the bottom jaw 
Good choice Scuzzy, tried the lot over the years and have found the Mutsu the strongest and best hook up rate on the Big Snaps. I run the big 32mm size on my strayline rigs! Like you say 99% of the time the Snaps gets hooked in the corner of the mouth. Steps to get the circles out quickly if releasing or keeping a fish push hard on the back of the hook eye with one of your thumbs! If that fails, pliers....Beer

So I am interested in the Mutsu hooks. It seems a number of suppliers claim to sell Mutsu hooks. BKK have Mutsu circle hooks. Is Mutsu a style?
I am buying BKK circle hooks.
Is the difference that the offset is the opposite way?
It seems their size 32 (biggest) is equiv to the #10. Which is as big as I can buy (and use) in the BKK.
Some more info on them would be useful.
Thx
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Fish Addict
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 1:37pm
Alan you are correct, Mutsu is a style of hook.  They are the same / similar to what I would call a Recurve hook.  They come in offset and non-offset configurations.  Similar to circle hooks in that the point of the hook is at 90 deg (or close to) the shank.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 2:04pm


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Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 2:05pm
So what is the difference between the BKK circle I use and the Mutsu. The BKK is in foreground (offset). Same size Mustad in background.
Alan


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Posted By: Fish Addict
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

So what is the difference between the BKK circle I use and the Mutsu. The BKK is in foreground (offset). Same size Mustad in background.
Alan
Different manufacturers use different terminology.  Mutsu and recurve hooks are often included within the 'circle' style of hooks.  The image below is from the Gamakatsu website under the circle hooks category.  The bottom left hook is a mutsu or recurve the others are more typical style circles.




Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 3:30pm
Right - so my BKK is more a circle - which I think is how they sell them. But they also sell a BKK Mutsu. It looks like it has more of a leg on the barb side, rather than a full curve.
Any guesses as to why a Mutsu would be better - assuming it is, over a circle.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Fish Addict
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

... Any guesses as to why a Mutsu would be better - assuming it is, over a circle.

Good question and not one I can readily give you an answer to.  Perhaps someone else can?


Posted By: Snappa Geoff
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

So what is the difference between the BKK circle I use and the Mutsu. The BKK is in foreground (offset). Same size Mustad in background.
Alan
Different manufacturers use different terminology.  Mutsu and recurve hooks are often included within the 'circle' style of hooks.  The image below is from the Gamakatsu website under the circle hooks category.  The bottom left hook is a mutsu or recurve the others are more typical style circles.


Bottom left is the shape of the ones i use Allan. On the package it says Mutsu-R the size, Qty, Made in Korea. Decoro Fishing Supplies in Tauranga has all the sizes. Also they come in red or bronze. Have found bronze colour better as they last alot longer before the coating starts wearing off and rust starts. Even the little sizes are deadly on hook ups. I make three hook sabiki rigs for catching bait using size two. many a time get three fish at once. Hope this helps....




Posted By: scuzzymoto
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 4:20pm
I use exclusive Sakuma Hooks and have done for 10+ years now, I only surf cast and lbg fish. I have found the Sakuma  Mutsu Hook made in Japan the perfect  the barb is off-set the same as Alan has posted above ( bottom hook) but the eye is straight , now the way the eye is folded is opposite to the way the barb goes so when you tie a snood it pulls up to the hook shank /eye not the cut side of hook . Some company's may call the Mutsu hook semi circle ( but have wrong offset and bent eye).
just my views - crap weather cant fish ,cant garden  bored Wink


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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled” Mark Twain


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 5:34pm
Well I guess I should get some and try them. See if better hook up than BKK circle.
So much fishing to do, so many plans, so little time. Lucky I don't have a proper job to interfere.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 26 May 2022 at 7:29pm




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2023 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 27 May 2022 at 7:11am
Funnily enough I think I am using some - on my ledger rigs.
Recently switched to Black magic KL size 5. I swear they are same shape.
Getting about 90% hook up rate.
I will grab some Mutsu #32 (size 10), for Vtu.
Be posting a report in a few weeks.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 27 May 2022 at 7:49am
When I go snapper fishing off West Coast, I use a Snapper Catcha Gamakatsu flasher rig, 8/0. I have a rod holder that holds the rod at 45 degrees. Drop the bait, put rod in holder and wait. When the rod bounces continuously you're hooked up.
Wind in fish. Lazy fishing, well, yes and no. Effective fishing - YES!



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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 27 May 2022 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Fishb8 Fishb8 wrote:

When I go snapper fishing off West Coast, I use a Snapper Catcha Gamakatsu flasher rig, 8/0. I have a rod holder that holds the rod at 45 degrees. Drop the bait, put rod in holder and wait. When the rod bounces continuously you're hooked up.
Wind in fish. Lazy fishing, well, yes and no. Effective fishing - YES!

PRECISELY what I do. And the BM KL hooks work a treat. But those Gamakatsu are very good too.
I think the bouncing is a key part of the plan - certainly for gurnard. Hard to do same holding the rod.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member



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