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Help Please Motor idles but stalls at power

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Category: General Forums
Forum Name: The Boat Shed
Forum Description: Discuss all things boating.
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=136337
Printed Date: 21 May 2022 at 5:13pm


Topic: Help Please Motor idles but stalls at power
Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Subject: Help Please Motor idles but stalls at power
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 6:07am
Searched for a good mechanic and find one with some good reviews (in these forums).
20mins away not exactly close but happy if good work).

Put boat in for pre-Xmas repair and maintenance. Spent $1k on other work e.g. steering and some basic motor work. Says it's ok for 12 months until service.

First trip to take family out. Boat idles ok but stalls when any throttle applied. From ramp back to mechanic. Nothing not even an apology. Am sure the mechanic doesn't want to see me again as much as I don't want to see him but a little customer service never goes astray.

A week later pick it up again add $400 for full service. Mechanic suggests may need a good run to flash carbs although have been cleaned.

Two trips out and back, no issues.   I tend to travel about 20-30min trips one way from marina. Third session last week, motor stalls after power applied. Happens several times. After running with choke, motor gets going. Out and back ok.

This week try to take family out. Boat stalls after going from marina speed to higher power. Get towed back from just outside marina by kind fellow boatie. Pls note idles fine. could idle all day. We are now one from three successful family trips. Wife wondering what we spent all the money on and so am I.

This has now stuffed key part of holiday as mechanic closed and leaving to go away for two weeks. We do a four hour drive to get away. Not taking the boat as feels like waste of time. Not willing to launch where even less boaties around to help if in trouble. Am coastguard member. Closest mechanic 1.5 hours away (one way).
Which means paying for ferries and no boat fishing.

Feeling pretty jaded.

How do I get this thing fixed? So it works right with confidense? I have no experience with boat motors but happy to try suggestions and even Googled. Given work done feels like fuel starvation but not sure how to fix.

At what point do you cut losses and try a new mechanic? Seems to know what he is doing and am sure has plenty of other satisfied customers. Maybe just not the right boat mechanic combo? (Pls note am not interested in naming and shaming - not the purpose of this post).

When should I stop paying and the mechanic cover the work until it is done right? In retail you get a free replacement if any item is faulty.

Am not keen to replace boat. Don't want anyone else to get these hassles and also way less expensive to fix.Although am questioing what price lost time and effort?



Replies:
Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 6:19am
Be inclined to take back too same mechanic.Could very well be electrical.component etc heating up and breaking down.dont know how to test as more likely throw away replacement part.had simular issue turned out to be condensor happened again and sticky choke.spring fell off butterfly.


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 6:30am
Thanks PCJ. Will mention.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 8:09am
Had similar issues with a local mechanic..in the end cost us over $1200, So did bit homework.. took a chance a sorced a new part he had replaced for 1/2 the price.
 Involved correct timing being critical so headed to Counties..expecting another $800 type bill
They put the part in set timing rector (which we suspect screwed the original and the replace part...)
Cost under $200..

Guys now closed his workshop working from home.. wonder why..

Yes these things can get expensive and un fair.
Legally had grounds to go to small claims.. and I have done that a few times over the yrs, always won because of  evidence, rather than circumstantial evidence, which causes a doubt in the final call, and nil result...

Any way
Boat stalls after going from marina speed to higher power.

Have a bit of a distance before getting to higher speed area?

 Yes could be a ign power pack or ign coil over heating...usually due to incorrect timing or spark plug gap too wide.. or a battery that is rated to low for the engine plus run electronics on board (espec as long distance low rpms, with alternator not on full charge rpms.)

But runs with choke? 
That is running on an induced rich mixture...
This could indicate a fuel line that has a tiny air leak, or a fuel pick up in the tank needs a clean, or fuel filter needs replacing.. (water filter and or filter on engine)

As to needs a run to clear carbs... that is utter BS..
1/ was put in to have this check amongst any other stuff could be..
2/ IF a proper equipped workshop he will have a tank, and dummy props that replace your prop to load the engine in the tank at higher testing rpms...

The eventual thing at the end of the day you need this engine to have your confidence back... (there is no as such road side AA)

My approach would be, email (evidence) a clear laid out summary of events and conversations to date...
Ask what his intentions are and say there should be no further costs to sort this problem out and if he intends to as a priority.

Depending if, how , and when he replies...and hopefully nil or rather negative...
Take to a full francise workshop and get fixed.
 Give them a brief rundown on events that has happened todate . Stay way from who.. just what has happened.
 This info can be of great help to their service ppl chasing down issue(s)

Pay the bill
Then spend your $20 or whatever uit is now, put a claim in the small claims, run down of events etc.
And sort you bills, emails, and the final bill from the workshop that finally finds fixes the issue...

Do not get into a aguement or discussion with the original guy...
Its just you expect it to be fixed, no further charges, nothing else, reasons whatever.

Hope this is of help.





Posted By: Kandrew
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 8:37am
Originally posted by Hookedline&sinker Hookedline&sinker wrote:

Searched for a good mechanic and find one with some good reviews (in these forums).
20mins away not exactly close but happy if good work).

Put boat in for pre-Xmas repair and maintenance. Spent $1k on other work e.g. steering and some basic motor work. Says it's ok for 12 months until service.

First trip to take family out. Boat idles ok but stalls when any throttle applied. From ramp back to mechanic. Nothing not even an apology. Am sure the mechanic doesn't want to see me again as much as I don't want to see him but a little customer service never goes astray.

A week later pick it up again add $400 for full service. Mechanic suggests may need a good run to flash carbs although have been cleaned.

Two trips out and back, no issues.   I tend to travel about 20-30min trips one way from marina. Third session last week, motor stalls after power applied. Happens several times. After running with choke, motor gets going. Out and back ok.

This week try to take family out. Boat stalls after going from marina speed to higher power. Get towed back from just outside marina by kind fellow boatie. Pls note idles fine. could idle all day. We are now one from three successful family trips. Wife wondering what we spent all the money on and so am I.

This has now stuffed key part of holiday as mechanic closed and leaving to go away for two weeks. We do a four hour drive to get away. Not taking the boat as feels like waste of time. Not willing to launch where even less boaties around to help if in trouble. Am coastguard member. Closest mechanic 1.5 hours away (one way).
Which means paying for ferries and no boat fishing.

Feeling pretty jaded.

How do I get this thing fixed? So it works right with confidense? I have no experience with boat motors but happy to try suggestions and even Googled. Given work done feels like fuel starvation but not sure how to fix.

At what point do you cut losses and try a new mechanic? Seems to know what he is doing and am sure has plenty of other satisfied customers. Maybe just not the right boat mechanic combo? (Pls note am not interested in naming and shaming - not the purpose of this post).

When should I stop paying and the mechanic cover the work until it is done right? In retail you get a free replacement if any item is faulty.

Am not keen to replace boat. Don't want anyone else to get these hassles and also way less expensive to fix.Although am questioing what price lost time and effort?
Make of engine, HP and year of manufacture please and where abouts are you.


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 9:10am
My motor ran ok at low revs, then struggled at high revs. Turned out, it was a fuel pipe being squashed - so not allowing enough fuel through for high revs. 


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 12:56pm
STEPS slightly off topic.batteries. started marking my batteries as a few yrs ago.a crowd in Takanini gone now.swapped my new for a old.didnt notice as in box. Had issues starting.flat.thats I discovered it..But too late.went back and they denied it.


Posted By: MATTOO
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 5:03pm
PJC points to an often overlooked area.

Fuel starvation.
Being a two stroke, it likes fuel on demand.

Is the air vent on the tote tank fully open.
If you use a tote tank that is.
Is the primer bulb working properly.
If you have a water filter is it clean.
Are all your fuel filters clean.
Have the needles and jets been cleaned.

A few starting points that you can do to eliminate areas.

-------------
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 7:33pm
Thanks Steps. Comprehensive reply as usual! (and very helpful thank you).

To respond to your comments/questions....

From marina to higher speed area...about 50-100m then another 50m - 100m for second no wake zone.

Noted potential causes with power pack .my battery should be good as oversized although guy did comment the need to out put it on charge as it had been used to start alot.I was surprised as it lives on the trickle charge...noted comment about marking my battery....

dirty fuel pick up or leak are possible noting filtër was already replaced at service.

He did mention using the tank.

the bit that really bothers me is that the engine had no issues before I had it serviced...it was the steering that needed fixing.

Am noting down history incl dates and facts. Good tip thank you


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 7:36pm
thanks let's get them...I tried switching tanks without any improvement...fuel lines are quite short so think my problem is likely elsewhere....


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 7:40pm
Thanks Mattoo.

Mine is 4 strike but checked air vents on totes. primer bulb was soft even after pumping thanks for mentioning as additional clue)

filters we changed at service.

will need to check about needles and jetë.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 9:12pm
The first thing I would change is the fuel line and primer bulb. Not saying it is that but it is an easy thing to eliminate

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Tonto2
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 10:01pm
Hi, what is the motor please and what year? Cheers

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slowly going where everyone else has already been


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 8:12am
Hi, what is the motor please and what year? Cheers

 Yes
Kandrew mentioned that above.
 OH and when trouble shooting my issue while back KAndrew was a of great help... something he mentioned in passing that then lead everything down the right track..
Does it run smooth just off idle, slow speed?

Also semi related to the above. you hit the open water, runs crap. If you let engine sit for 5 or 10 mins, then fire up does it then run ok, for a little while then die?

Replacing fuel lines every few yrs is good practice...
Use 2x fully stainless jubblee clips.
 The bulb pump.. always fit according to the arrows of flow on the bulb
And mount vertical, so fuel flows up.
 Many a 'failed' bulb has been replaced because not mounted correctly. If even just slightly up...the non return ball bearings dont seat on the seals, and the fuel runs back out of the carbs after a bit of a fish...
I must admit mine is about a 30 deg angle, anchor up for 45 min/hr and need to re pump to fire the engine..bit short on height and room where bub needs to be for easy access.


Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 8:31am
If motor has carbs then as already mentioned it could be water in the fuel causing the problem.

The water in the fuel sinks to the bottom of the carbs leaving the
petrol to be drawn off the top which often does not affect the motor when run on idle.

However once the is thrust into gear the surge in power sucks the water/fuel mix in causing the motor to stall.

Not only that but the fuel remaining in the tank has been drawn from the the bottom once more contaminating the fuel in the carbs.

Easy way to establish if this is the problem is to either replace the fuel in the tank or borrow an uncontaminated tank to try.

By the way don't even bother to try the old trick of adding meths to the fuel as might sometimes work in a vehicle but unlikely to in an outboard.   


Posted By: Joker
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

The first thing I would change is the fuel line and primer bulb. Not saying it is that but it is an easy thing to eliminate


I agree with Smudge the fuel line and primer bulb has been the cause of too many fuel delivery problems in the past.



Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Joker Joker wrote:

Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

The first thing I would change is the fuel line and primer bulb. Not saying it is that but it is an easy thing to eliminate


I agree with Smudge the fuel line and primer bulb has been the cause of too many fuel delivery problems in the past.


Hug
Hehe yeah, a logical approach is needed when problem solving. How did you get on HL&S? Would like to know the outcome


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 11:19am
Thanks for following up @Smudge and sorry all for tardy reply to all. Have been away off the grid with sporadic reception and then working to get this addressed and then partly trying to forget that there were some magical glassy days where we were with other boaties out..

In terms of an update...spoke to the business owner mechanic and voiced concerns. This was a good step as gave opportunity for response.

Took the boat in - mentioned suggestions above with some of the responses i recall - condenser - there isnt one, fuel lines/filter - fine/look new ). After investigation they identified dirty plugs which were replaced at no cost.   I did ask why this wasn't picked up at the original reviews. Suggested i use 91 instead of 95/98 as potential cause of fouling (which tbh i was using as thought it was supposed to be cleaner fuel).

They ran the boat in the water to confirm fixed with no concerns (noting used own tank, lines and bulb). I mentioned the bulb not filling when i went to pick up and this was replaced on the spot. Apparently you should hold it vertical to use - who new?!).

Plan to take the boat out tomorrow and provide a further update after then.

Another key tip i have noted is to run the fuel out (disconnect tank) which reduces chances of carbs fouling as well. Although only need to worry over longer period >1month i am now super wary.

Just wanted to say thanks again all for your suggestions and thoughts on this issue. Hope this is the end for a while.

Update to come.




Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 1:13pm
Are you by any chance using GULL fuel.

Not quite sure why ... something to do with it containing too much ethanol or whatever & if you look carefully Gull usually have a hard to see warning notice that their product is unsuited to outboard use.


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Police came around last night & said there had been numerous complaints my dogs were chasing people on bikes so told them "No way .... my dogs don't even have bikes ????????


Posted By: rusty360
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 3:10pm
I have a story that's so similar it's uncanny.

My new to me 70hp yamaha was running rough on the transition from slow to on the plane. Mech suggested carbs needed a clean.
Went to pick it up bill 250 more than quoted but they had put in a water sep filter. Took it straight to the river for a test run. Was running worse, and now had a miss at higher rpm.
Took it straight back, owner mech didn't seem to care and had a pretty negative attitude all around but I left it with them.
1 week later guy rang said all good was just fouled plugs and the 70hp run the 90hp gearbox so are always a wee bit rough on that transition due to the smaller power head and big gearbox. The 90hps I've had in the past were always very smooth.

Next time out ran ok but seemed smoker than normal, still same on the transition to the plane.

Last time we had it out went to take off and nothing only running on two must have fouled a plug. It finally cleared then went ok. Got home and also noticed it had used a heap of oil.

Jumped on YouTube and found a way to test oil pump and got the service manual.

Was testing the oil pump and you have to remove the oil pump carb link. After removing the oil pump side I then noticed it wasn't connected to the carb at all this could have popped off maybe?? but what I'm thinking is that it was never reconnected after the carbs were put back on, hence the fouled plugs, heaps of smoke etc as the oil pump is sprung to go to max oil with no linkage attached.

Hope to get on the water tomorrow to confirm this

Originally posted by Hookedline&sinker Hookedline&sinker wrote:

Thanks for following up @Smudge and sorry all for tardy reply to all. Have been away off the grid with sporadic reception and then working to get this addressed and then partly trying to forget that there were some magical glassy days where we were with other boaties out..

In terms of an update...spoke to the business owner mechanic and voiced concerns. This was a good step as gave opportunity for response.

Took the boat in - mentioned suggestions above with some of the responses i recall - condenser - there isnt one, fuel lines/filter - fine/look new ). After investigation they identified dirty plugs which were replaced at no cost.   I did ask why this wasn't picked up at the original reviews. Suggested i use 91 instead of 95/98 as potential cause of fouling (which tbh i was using as thought it was supposed to be cleaner fuel).

They ran the boat in the water to confirm fixed with no concerns (noting used own tank, lines and bulb). I mentioned the bulb not filling when i went to pick up and this was replaced on the spot. Apparently you should hold it vertical to use - who new?!).

Plan to take the boat out tomorrow and provide a further update after then.

Another key tip i have noted is to run the fuel out (disconnect tank) which reduces chances of carbs fouling as well. Although only need to worry over longer period >1month i am now super wary.

Just wanted to say thanks again all for your suggestions and thoughts on this issue. Hope this is the end for a while.

Update to come.




Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 6:00pm
Thanks @bazza, never use Gull but good to know. They just arent available in my area so use BP, Z or Mobil. When we go away there is a G.A.S. we use. Do you know if the caution applies to them as well?


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 6:06pm
Would be eerie if the same mechanic @rusty360. What suburb is your mechanic?

Mine was smoky on restart as well. Wonder is same issue. They said resolved so keen to hear your outcome and share mine tomorrow. The tropical cyclone hasn't made it crazy but will be a bumpy session. i am going to put line in since might as well!


Posted By: MATTOO
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 6:19pm
Seems you guys are getting on top of this.
Your real time experiences will be good for an increasing understanding for you and us.
More tools we can all share for future members.

A great aspect of forums like this.

The depository of info is from the members.


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Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 7:32pm
A smoky 4 stroke is a problem. Are you sure it is smoke and not just condensation? There are many people that will tell you about the advantages of running engines on a higher octane fuel than that specified. Do NOT take advice from those people.

Hopefully you're all sorted but the plugs should have been changed at the service. A 4 stroke engine won't have an oil pump feeding oil into the fuel.

Your mechanic sounds dodgy but hopefully he has it fixed this time.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Hookedline&sinker Hookedline&sinker wrote:

Thanks @bazza, never use Gull but good to know. They just arent available in my area so use BP, Z or Mobil. When we go away there is a G.A.S. we use. Do you know if the caution applies to them as well?
G.A.S is BP without the additives apparently.

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Amateur's built the ark. Professional built the Titanic


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 8:53am
Been on a raod trip just catching up now.

Couple things above
I mentioned the bulb not filling when i went to pick up and this was replaced on the spot. Apparently you should hold it vertical to use - who new?!)

The buld hast to be mounted vertical.. even if a little off (as mine is , guilty) the non return ball bearings dont sit in the seats and the fuel slowly (espec on carbs) leaks back. So you maybe anchored up for 1/2  or 1hr plus  go to fire up and doesn't quite 'catch ' couple good pumps and fires up

A mention dirty plugs..
An engine 2S or other wise that timing is set Correctly.. (and leave that to proper workshops with the proper gear, including test tanks and the testing props so can load the engine correctly) And the correct 91 octane used will run for yrs without fouling up.
What happens thu is the gaps increase, more current to drivwe the healthy sopark, more load on coils etc, and bad spark issues arise.
 Bad spark .. dirty plugs..Wink
Dirty plugs are a symptom of something else wrong


Your mechanic sounds dodgy but hopefully he has it fixed this time.

And yep I keep coming back to that...
Doesn't mean the workshop or owner is, but a doggy person on the tools is not  uncommon.

 I have had U bolts installed in a very reputable workshop.. 20 to 25 lb torgue.
I walked back into the workshop, handed a cracked fuel hose to the workshop manager after a 'service'
A charging system stuffed cause the same person short cutted, by test running engine and thought a good idea multi task,to re grease the battery terminals.

The workshop quietly dealt with the matter.

And that person has been thru at least 3 other reputable workshops since.....that I know of.




Posted By: rusty360
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 9:20am
Hey hookline n sinker I won't name names on here I'll pm you.

If your motor is a four stroke it shouldn't be smoking at all. And definitely shouldn't be fouling plugs. I wounder if they have set the carbs up wrong and it's running super rich.

What brand outboard and year is it?


Originally posted by Hookedline&sinker Hookedline&sinker wrote:

Would be eerie if the same mechanic @rusty360. What suburb is your mechanic?

Mine was smoky on restart as well. Wonder is same issue. They said resolved so keen to hear your outcome and share mine tomorrow. The tropical cyclone hasn't made it crazy but will be a bumpy session. i am going to put line in since might as well!


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 12:59pm
Agreed and makes sense @Mattoo.


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 1:04pm
Noted PCJ thanks for the heads up.

Ok thanks Steps. Really hoping this is sorted now and have flagged the session today. Cyclone Cody and Tonga tsunami with warnings up coast spooked us so will try next weekend weather permitting.
I saw it was all to be done by 4am but given the luck so far didn't want to chance it.

Bit of a worry that mechanic Steps. I did ask the business owner to make sure he had a look at it himself. Nothing against newbies but for an ongoing problem felt like it needed an experienced eye.


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 1:05pm
i'll PM you rusty360.


Posted By: Hookedline&sinker
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 2:29pm
just noticed I didn't reply to this one...cheers smudge...was pretty black grey smoke when upped the choke on restarts.

Noted feedback on higher octane fuel. certainly learned my lesson.

yes agreed...any plug issue should have been well sorted


I find it hard to tell whether it's was something he missed on purpose or accident. the next question is- even if fboat goes fine, do I take it back to him for any further work given he now knows the boat.hopefully something I won't have to deal with for a while!!



Posted By: Big -Dave
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 10:27pm
A 4 stroke running really rich will make grey smoke, too much choke?
Shouldn't need a lot of choke at all after a 10 seconds or so of running.



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you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...


Posted By: Durban
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 9:22pm
Do a leak down test on each cylinder on the compression stroke when both vales are closed you may have valves not seating and leaking causing the smoke its best to lap the valves and replace valve stem seals


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 8:23am
I dont think there are many around who know what a leak down test is , or how to do it, these days... let alone how to find compression stroke.Wink


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

I dont think there are many around who know what a leak down test is , or how to do it, these days... let alone how to find compression stroke.Wink

Probably more than you may think Steps. Plenty of clever young people around who know lots of practical stuff. Just because stuff is 'old school' doesn't necessarily make it better.



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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2022 at 8:13am
Probably more than you may think Steps.

 Or not.. been around far too many vintage and rod clubs/ shows/events over recent yrs.. leak down often gets a blank look..

And old school is not "better" its just being able to tdc on firing stroke without a piston stop...dont think there are many now who know what that is either..let alone have one in their home workshop.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2022 at 11:16am
Most people wouldn't need one though. Certainly not needed to diagnose this fault.

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2022 at 1:59pm
Refer back to Durbans post..
Funny how know one mentioned dont need TDC Wink for leak down.. on the other hand having such a fault, good practice is to find TDC while at it, by piston position, establish timing marks ,  are actually correct, no slop in key ways, perished rubbers in balances etc....

Also an old school trick.. is it worn valve guides or rings?
Mark the plugs as they sit in the head... pull the plug, carbon on the bottom, rings , carbon on the top valves

And if doing leak down.. dont do what have seen done so many times.. grab the compression tester, bring up the pressure and pressure stays the same...because still got the valve in the end of the gauge...

Smoke... 4S... timing, mixture , rings/ valve seals (espec if on initial fire up)often a combo of the above.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2022 at 3:06pm
OK

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Kandrew
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2022 at 6:53pm
This motor is a 2S merc so I don’t see where all the talk above has any relevance.



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