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Tagging recaptures

Printed From: The Fishing Website
Category: Saltwater Fishing
Forum Name: The Briny Bar
Forum Description: The place for general chat on saltwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=135510
Printed Date: 13 Apr 2024 at 1:12pm


Topic: Tagging recaptures
Posted By: kitno
Subject: Tagging recaptures
Date Posted: 24 May 2021 at 7:26pm
Last November my partner and I had one of our tagged snapper recaptured after 12.5 months at liberty. It was caught by a kayak fisherman around 2km away from the original capture spot in the Tauranga Harbour. Within that time it had grown from 28cm to 39cm. Looks like they grow a bit faster than I was lead to believe.
We have just received notification that another of our tagged snapper has been recaptured. We originally caught this one up Whangaroa just over a month ago and are currently awaiting more details. Will keep you posted .





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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.



Replies:
Posted By: White snake
Date Posted: 24 May 2021 at 7:39pm
Awsome kitno.thanks for the details.very interesting.caught a tagged cray once when diving.sent all details to Niwa and never heard back.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 4:43pm
Just got some details through on a recent recapture. We caught and released a 33cm snapper "T10883" 19/4/21 on the Tutukaka coast in 35 metres. It was recaptured 21/5/21 1.96km away measuring 33cm.


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Top 10 finish
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Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Just got some details through on a recent recapture. We caught and released a 33cm snapper "T10883" 19/4/21 on the Tutukaka coast in 35 metres. It was recaptured 21/5/21 1.96km away measuring 33cm.

But the 'science' says they all die if caught deeper than 10m. I'm starting to realise the rec tagging program is a good way to combat some of the fake science we keep reading. Next you'll be telling us you touched that fish with your bare hands :)


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 7:25pm
Yes, bare hands and jabbed a tag in it. The Tindale Marine Research program is the first real inshore species tagging research done. Some of the things I've found out are very different to what I thought was science. It was more of a guess I'm thinking.


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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Just got some details through on a recent recapture. We caught and released a 33cm snapper "T10883" 19/4/21 on the Tutukaka coast in 35 metres. It was recaptured 21/5/21 1.96km away measuring 33cm.

But the 'science' says they all die if caught deeper than 10m. I'm starting to realise the rec tagging program is a good way to combat some of the fake science we keep reading. Next you'll be telling us you touched that fish with your bare hands :)
ha
ha "smudge" have a look at who wrote ,what you call,fake science. John Holdsworth ,Legaseas  marine scientist.


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 7:29pm
Kitno,great that you are taging and geting results.question.When reading pages on caught gamefish in NZ,how come you never read of someone landing a tagged fish or released a tagged fish.(marlin)


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 7:32pm
I have read about recaptured marlin and tuna.


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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 7:25am
Where do you get these tags from?

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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 7:43am
I'd be happy to catch a snapper worth tagging :-)
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 9:00am
Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

I'd be happy to catch a snapper worth tagging :-)
Alan

Haha


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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Fishb8 Fishb8 wrote:

Where do you get these tags from?

Tindale Marine Research, check my first post.



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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 9:14am
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Originally posted by Fishb8 Fishb8 wrote:

Where do you get these tags from?

Tindale Marine Research, check my first post.

Heres an interesting read from the Tindales.Hmm supports reecs/working groups??make up your minds.

https://seafood.org.nz/publications/seafood-nz-magazine/article/?tx_ttnews%5b" rel="nofollow - https://seafood.org.nz/publications/seafood-nz-magazine/article

A shared fishery can create tensions, but marine experts Scott and Sue Tindale say there are many improvements that can be made towards a healthy marine environment and a thriving fishery – and much of that is in the recreational and science space. LESLEY HAMILTON reports.

Sue and Scott Tindale know a lot about the marine environment. They have been on it or under it for most of their lives.

Retiring early after successful careers in the corporate world, the Tindales turned their experience in sport fishing and their decades-long knowledge of the marine environment to contribute data and knowledge to scientists, fellow anglers and fisheries managers.

The Tindale Marine Research Charitable Trust was formed in 2018 by the couple as a place to educate and showcase marine research and citizen science in and around New Zealand.

Because of a huge gap in the knowledge of New Zealand’s inshore species, the Trust initiated a New Zealand-wide inshore fish tagging programme for all fishers to become involved in.

The Tindales live and breathe the marine environment and while they have achieved unprecedented success in the sport and game fishing world, their passion now is to educate others about best practises and initiatives.

Six years ago the Tindales achieved the pinnacle of game fishing accolades with both receiving International Game Fishing Association lifetime achievement awards for surpassing 100 world records. Only eight male and eight female fishers in the world have received them.

Scott Tindale says, even when sport fishing, they would release healthy fish unless there was a good reason not to. “We wouldn’t keep a fish unless it was a world record and there was some scientist who was keen on examining it or it was going into a world collection, so we were fishing to order and getting world records while we were at it.”

They satellite tagged hammerheads and short finned makos for NIWA and the couple are among only a handful with a permit to research tag great white sharks, manta rays and other protected species. The data is invaluable.

“We always assumed the makos headed to the tropics in the middle of winter and came back in the summer. The opposite happened. They were sitting off the West Coast in the hoki fishery and only left the EEZ for two or three weeks. One of the tags we got back from a manta ray showed it had dived to depths of 4000 metres.”

When time allows, they help out at the Auckland Museum’s wet lab, which is where the marine specimens going into collections are preserved and catalogued for future study and they assist with necropsies of great white sharks reported to DOC.

They feel strongly about the shortcomings of New Zealand’s shared fishery, and are not afraid to voice it. Spending in excess of 100 days every year out on the water doing research gives those voices clout.

Scott Tindale says the commercial sector is not perfect, but it contributes to marine research, the catch is quantified, and they are continually upgrading procedures.

He is not as kind when talking about the education and regulation around recreational fishers – and he is scathing of those who seek to blame the commercial sector for all ills with any fishery.

Recreational catch mortality is very high, according to Tindale.

“Most have no idea how to handle or unhook a fish, exercise poor tackle selection like barbed ‘J’ or three-pronged hooks that cause gut hooking of unwanted or undersized fish, and they just chuck it back dead or dying and call that recreational catch. I call it dumping and high grading,” says Tindale.

“Look, I am not MPI and I don’t want to be the fun police either. My job is to educate people about the best way to do things but there is a lot of work to do.”

The couple call weekends on the Hauraki Gulf the charge of the light brigade with pleasure craft charging through the middle of a work-up, flattening seabirds.

“I had one guy ring me up laughing because he had his windscreen smashed by a couple of gannets. So, I am sitting on these working groups and these guys are only on about commercial bycatch and I just throw my phone on the table and show them a video of a guy strangling a shag while he is trying to get his live bait hook out of his mouth – and he did that twice while I was filming.”

Tindale says they were incredibly frustrated with the misinformation in the public domain and the apparent reluctance to contradict it with fact. “Part of the reason for starting the Trust was we wanted to get actual data out there, not someone’s opinion or estimate or survey. I’ve done those surveys.

“I mean CRA2. MPI know I hate the National Panel Survey because it is garbage. But in CRA2 they interviewed two people and they weight the numbers. I mean if I were a fisheries officer, I might have to have a word with these two panel respondents because they got 360 crays each per day after the manipulation of the numbers. What it is, is guesswork and creative accounting.

“And the ramp surveys. Try coming to Gulf Harbour where there are punch ups because there is so much traffic queuing for the ramp. Try getting someone to stop for a three-minute survey there. If your car is stopped someone is going to throw a brick at you. We were at Shelley beach and we were just waiting for the queue to die down, so I just wandered over to the woman doing the ramp survey and asked her how many she had counted. She said no one wanted to talk to her and the only ones who approached her were new to the area and wanted to know where the fish were. Then I gave some guys a hand with their chilly bin and they sniggered and said they caught nothing. I had damn near put my back out lifting it out of the boat for them,” says Tindale.

According to NIWA, the average recreational fisherman catches 1.2 kilos of fish per person per year on four trips.

Tindale says every recreational angler he knows, even the ones who are hopeless at catching fish can do better than that.

Then there are the aerial surveys.

“We were out on the top of the Manukau Bar the same day DOC was doing the aerial survey for Maui dolphins where they came up with the number 50– and I counted 17 of them around my boat in three different locations. We jokingly put a complaint into DOC that they were chasing our kahawai away.”

Scott and Sue Tindale say the ministry’s research done in New Zealand on inshore species needs to get out faster and shouted from the rooftops, but it is not.

“Why is the research not being shared as it is done, not five years down the track when it may be peer reviewed, but it is out of date? Instead of arguing the tarakihi is functionally extinct based on a research project that was done six years earlier, why aren’t we releasing the latest one that shows they have bounced back?”

So why does Tindale think there is such a divide between recreational and commercial fishers?

“There are a lot of people who don’t fish, or don’t fish that often. Even with our tagging programme, the first reaction I got from recreational fishers was whether I was going to give all the data on their fishing spots to the commercial guys. I told them I was pretty sure that the commercial fishers who are out there 365 days a year are not interested in the one spot you go on that one weekend in January along with everyone else.”

NIWA estimates some 20 percent of the population fish recreationally and Tindale says 33 percent of them fish in the Hauraki Gulf, where there is very limited commercial fishing.

“Recreational fishers claim the Gulf is functionally extinct yet each time I go out there I can’t avoid catching fish. We have rules of which fish you can catch and how many you can catch but no one tells you how to fish,” says Tindale.

“I have done a lot of research on the species everyone claims they can’t catch in the Gulf like tarakihi, snapper, and kahawai. But everyone is hell bent on charging into the Motuihe channel to sit next to their mate’s boat with the stereo blaring and wonder why they’re not catching anything.

“It’s a patch of water that is next to the largest city in New Zealand and everyone wants to blame someone else for not catching fish.”

The Tindales say the need for recreational education is urgent.

“We help Southern Seabirds at the boat shows and ask every person who walks by if they have ever caught a seabird. At the Auckland on the Water show every single person said yes. Yet, while the commercial sector is using dyed baits and tori lines, there are no mitigation methods expected of any other fisher. And where are the resources being put into telling them how to release a bird safely if you do catch one? And telling them there is legislation that says you must report every protected sea bird capture?

“When Sue and I wander along any beach it is common to find discarded fishing line and dead seabirds with wings missing. Braid is deadly and cuts a seabird’s wing off easily if they get tangled and the rod is struck to flick it off.

“I was part of working groups on seabirds where they would just beat up on commercial fishers and I’d go hold on; how many birds did commercial have interactions with last year? And I would comment that I see more birds caught by recreational fishers on a long weekend on the Hauraki.”

The Tindales are constantly seeing unacceptable behaviour.

“We filmed a dead Antipodean Albatross floating on the water off Whangaroa in the hapuku grounds. It had only just been thrown overboard because when you see the small feathers floating around it you know it hasn’t been there very long. It had its throat cut. A fortnight later when I was in a seabird working group, I showed them the photographs. I also told them I know for a fact a commercial crew was not responsible,” says Tindale. The subject was changed.

However, it is the ignorance around commercial fishing that really riles Tindale up.

“The last meeting I had with LegaSea I had to explain what the EEZ was. They were having this argument about kicking commercial boats out to 50 miles and I told them New Zealand territorial waters only go out to 12 nautical miles. They didn’t understand that the EEZ only gave us exclusive rights to extract from it.

“Another meeting I had with them they were going on about purse seining for skip jack tuna and bleating on about how it was destroying the seabed. I mean, honestly, did these guys actually think the purse seiner net touches the bottom?”

Tindale does not believe LegaSea and other eNGOs actually believe what they are saying. “It’s money. LegaSea is a limited liability company. It can’t get funding unless they create a problem that they say needs fixing. My answer to them is if they are so worried about fish stocks, we should count the recreational catch. Boy that goes down like a lead balloon, with screams of ‘it’s our birth right’,” says Tindale. Both believe these groups should be accountable for the misleading information placed in the domain. Meanwhile, the Tindales just get on with their core job of educating people through their own tagging programme.

“When we were assisting NIWA it was frustrating that they didn’t want to release the information right away. With our programme, updates are put on social media regularly, I analyse the database here and do quarterly reports that are available on the Trust’s website for everyone to see.

“It’s about getting fishers to think about more than just killing fish. Let’s find out how fast they grow and where they move. I want the average guy out there to know that that 54cm kahawai that they just caught could be 24 years old. Or, if they let that snapper go at 20cms there is 90 percent chance it is of breeding age and if it gets recaptured in a years’ time it will have put out two million eggs.”

Tindale says it’s not about them and us.

“It’s about education, consistent, well-flagged regulations, robust and speedy science, and the holding accountable of those who choose to spread misinformation.”

“Anyone who cares about a healthy, shared resource should be working with all sectors, not against.”



Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 6:55pm
Here's a couple of stats due to the study so far.
1 in 23 tagged fish are recaptured nation wide.
96% of recaptures are caught recreationaly.


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Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 10:38am
Just received this in the post from Tindale Marine Research Charitable Trust. Daiwa NZ is a sponsor of the trust and do a lucky draw once a month. Thanks Daiwa NZ. All volunteers that tag a fish are in the draw for that month. Great timing as the mrs lost her softbait combo over the side last weekend in Coromandel.





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Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 1:34pm
Just got word that we've had another recapture. Will post the relevant details once confirmed.



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Posted By: John_Ra
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 3:08pm
Well done Kitno. Have a few tags left myself... Hope to see a  recapture 1 day... most have been 32-35 so far....




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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: dontpanic
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 5:20pm

Bloody interesting hearing about these recaptures 

Not great reading the perspective on recreational fishing but you just cannot beat real knowledge that the tagging data provides. 


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 5:27pm
Yes it is. I've been talking about it for too long, must give it a crack. My interest would be in getting a deep water caught recapture

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: dontpanic
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 5:37pm
Yes I have just been on the Tindale website, trying to figure out how you buy the tagging kit, no joy yet.


Posted By: RockCrashing
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 5:56pm

Originally posted by dontpanic dontpanic wrote:

Yes I have just been on the Tindale website, trying to figure out how you buy the tagging kit, no joy yet.

You can buy from TM,








Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by dontpanic dontpanic wrote:

Yes I have just been on the Tindale website, trying to figure out how you buy the tagging kit, no joy yet.
https://tindaleresearch.org.nz/tagging-program/order-tagging-gear%20" rel="nofollow - https://tindaleresearch.org.nz/tagging-program/order-tagging-gear

Txt or Phone Scott: tel:027%20476%200687" rel="nofollow - 027 476 0687
Txt or Phone Clinton: tel:027%20262%200383" rel="nofollow - 027 262 0383
E: mailto:[email protected]" rel="nofollow - [email protected]


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Amateur's built the ark. Professional built the Titanic


Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 8:21pm
Cheers for the links.
Took the plunge too as figured I've been releasing more fish than I take lately so might as well tag a few. Only thing I'm concerned about is the time it takes to do the measure tag and paperwork while the bite is hot. Can't do it if I haven't got them though so will give it a go.


Posted By: Fish Addict
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2022 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

... My interest would be in getting a deep water caught recapture
That's where things get real tricky I believe smudge due to barotrauma damage being related to the depth the fish was caught in.  The survival rates of several of the more targeted table fish over here fare very poorly, even when caught in 30m.  A slow speed retrieve is crucial as is allowing the fish to decompress 6-10m below the surface.  Snapper appear to be much hardier.  Fisheries modelling is based on the following death rates of released fish.  Baldchin groper and Breaksea cod (black arse) 90%, WA dhufish 50%, snapper 20%.
Release weights are compulsory on all recreational fishing boats.
https://recfishwest.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Recfishwest-Release-Weight-Brochure.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://recfishwest.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Recfishwest-Release-Weight-Brochure.pdf
I've mentioned on here previously that I've released snapper (bycatch) caught in 200-240m and they have swum away strongly.  Do they survive ........... ???  


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2022 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

... My interest would be in getting a deep water caught recapture
That's where things get real tricky I believe smudge due to barotrauma damage being related to the depth the fish was caught in.  The survival rates of several of the more targeted table fish over here fare very poorly, even when caught in 30m.  A slow speed retrieve is crucial as is allowing the fish to decompress 6-10m below the surface.  Snapper appear to be much hardier.  Fisheries modelling is based on the following death rates of released fish.  Baldchin groper and Breaksea cod (black arse) 90%, WA dhufish 50%, snapper 20%.
Release weights are compulsory on all recreational fishing boats.
https://recfishwest.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Recfishwest-Release-Weight-Brochure.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://recfishwest.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Recfishwest-Release-Weight-Brochure.pdf
I've mentioned on here previously that I've released snapper (bycatch) caught in 200-240m and they have swum away strongly.  Do they survive ........... ???  

That's exactly why I want to try it. I've released plenty of fish that look healthy after coming up from 30m or more and have swam away -downwards - strongly. Blown fish are clearly not suited for release though.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2022 at 11:56am
Details for the last recapture are in.
Snapper T13034 caught 4/5/21 spent 397 days at liberty before being recaptured on 4/6/22 1.1km from first capture.
Measuring 41cm initial catch and estimated 40cm on recapture. First released in 16m off Matakana Island Tauranga.



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2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2022 at 6:54pm




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Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2022 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by John_Ra John_Ra wrote:

Well done Kitno. Have a few tags left myself... Hope to see a  recapture 1 day... most have been 32-35 so far....



Keep on tagging John, someone will recapture one. How many tags do you have out there?

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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: John_Ra
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Originally posted by John_Ra John_Ra wrote:

Well done Kitno. Have a few tags left myself... Hope to see a  recapture 1 day... most have been 32-35 so far....



Keep on tagging John, someone will recapture one. How many tags do you have out there?


6 so far... slim chance for a recapture, but never know...Wink


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Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2022 at 12:30pm


Scott's recapture certificates from last month ready to send out.



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Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2022 at 9:19pm
Wow. 
So far just a few tags out there for me as haven't been out much. 


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 3:35pm
I just received my certificate for a recapture & release of a gurnard along with a pack of Bait Junkie softbaits. I've also ordered a tagging kit.

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 5:33pm
Shot Smudge. Got any data on that gurnard?


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Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 9:07pm
I had a call on Sunday from Scott letting me know the very first snapper I tagged at the Hen and Chicks was recaptured. Tagged 6 months ago at 34cm Caught in same area by a 9 year old and now 35cm. How to make a complete young stranger happy. Thumbs Up



Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2023 at 10:00am
Awsome, What was your release depth krow?


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Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2023 at 7:11pm
I think somewhere between 14m and 20m. hoping I'll get a return sheet with the info on it so I can know for sure. 



Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2023 at 8:28pm
Arrived in the mail today. Big thumbs up to the Tindales. To date I've tagged 60+ fish mostly snapper. A few Gurnard and Kahawai.
Some fish are just plain unlucky.








Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2023 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by dontpanic dontpanic wrote:

Yes I have just been on the Tindale website, trying to figure out how you buy the tagging kit, no joy yet.

Email Scott Tindale direct, he will be happy to sort it for you:   mailto:[email protected]" rel="nofollow - [email protected]


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 10:54am
Received a phone call from Scott yesterday saying we've had another fish recaptured. It was a little snapper originally caught up Coromandel early 2022. More details to come once I've got them.



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Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 9:38pm
Look forward to the info. 
It's cool how he rings and has a chat eh.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2024 at 1:44pm
Details just in.

On the 26/4/22 we tagged a snapper T15557 in 32 metres measuring 33cm. 622 days later 7/1/24 it was recaptured at Waimate Island Coromandel 2.4km from original capture location estimated at 33cm.


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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2024 at 8:58am
Looks like we've had another one recaptured. Going by the tag number, I tagged a snapper during last years Grunter Hunter. More details to come.



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Top 10 finish
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Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2024 at 8:41am
On the 11/6/23 I caught a snapper measuring 30cm in the Manukau harbour in 4m, tag number T20955. It was recaptured 256 days later 21/2/24 in the Manukau harbour measuring 38cm, 2km from the original capture location.
This makes it our 5th recapture.



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Top 10 finish
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Posted By: FlawOne
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2024 at 12:14pm
That's pretty cool! It grew a cm per month in the harbour and didn't have to go to far either. Nice work!

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Inner City Slayers.


Posted By: BananaBoat
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2024 at 5:52pm
Far out, it's well known that snaps grow faster west side than they do east side... almost seems unusual in a short amount of time from 30-38cm
A very healthy fishery west side


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2024 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by BananaBoat BananaBoat wrote:

Far out, it's well known that snaps grow faster west side than they do east side... almost seems unusual in a short amount of time from 30-38cm
A very healthy fishery west side


One of the first recaptures we got was from Tauranga harbour, it had grown from 28cm to 39cm in 12.5 months. Recapture was also close by within the harbour. Obviously both harbours have a very good food supply.



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