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Mental health

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Printed Date: 04 Dec 2021 at 10:54am


Topic: Mental health
Posted By: Muppet
Subject: Mental health
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 4:34pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/apr/06/the-gap-between-nz-labours-soaring-rhetoric-on-mental-health-and-the-reality-is-galling" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/apr/06/the-gap-between-nz-labours-soaring-rhetoric-on-mental-health-and-the-reality-is-galling

The debacle continues.
They will feed you lies to make themselves look good like missing out on the important information from the report.

I know for a fact it is bad and people are waiting days for a room at MH treatment places.



Replies:
Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 11:38am
The mental health system in this country being absolute shambles is nothing new though. Can't remember a time where it would have been anywhere near acceptable. 4 days to get a room in a MH Unit - I doubt that 99% of people who would benefit from it will get a place even close to that timeframe. From experience, there's hardly a chance to get a place, unless you're already half way up the harbour bridge with the intention to jump. Quote: "We're not referring you to MH crisis services - you're not suicidal. Just try to meet people and be more active. We'll see you again in a month."  - that's what you hear after not being functioning beyond lying in bed and eating occasionally for several months. If there is a benefit from a stay at those units is the next question - if they are run as well as the DHB MH crisis units in Auckland, I'd probably want to stay as far away from them as possible. 
Unless you got enough savings to pay for help privately and have friends/family to support you, you're screwed and even if you have the money, you have to be lucky to not waste it.


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 2:17pm
I met a guy in the UK who had emigrated to NZ, but had to move back to the UK because his then wife had mental health issues and couldn't get any help in NZ.  He moved back to the UK over 20 years ago so this isn't a new problem.  As successive governments have discovered, it isn't one with a simple solution either.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 5:11pm
No but the Guardian point is the rhetoric that Jacinda made in the 2017 election. Billions allocated since but we saw no plan on new buildings or how they going staff the places.

I do honestly think they have made it more of an issue though.


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 5:24pm
Go back 20 or so yrs to the Clark government  closed the mental health units??
1/2 way homes closed.

Closing of the 1/2 way homes and it was raised. Who is going to disperse meds?? Labour at the time reckoned those out are responsible enough to self medicate.   20 yrs ago was the start of mental health issues on the streets and what have done,learnt??nothing.

Question for all.  If feeling down depressed etc where or what agency do you contact?? I have no idea where to find them.My guess would be the police or ambulance on 111.



Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 6:13pm
When we have to start to train Corrections Officers in mental health stuff.. We know we have a problem.
 Those who used to be held in institutions, Now are in the community.. and where put there because of  'antisocial behavour'
 They eventually become homeless, targets for abuse, including drug abuse , end up in Prison..

There was a report put out a few yrs back about the number of people in our (over crowded) prisons because we closed down the institutions a few decades before.

They where not the most perfect of institutions, on the other hand prisons and absue and drugs on the streets in my book are even worse.

We thru away a system in a PC knee jerk reaction only to throw these ppl on the street... instead of reforming and modernising the system...

 And here we are today...


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 6:13pm
Personally I would go fishing, have a good meal or just spend some good time with family. Basically having a bit of gratitude for where I am in life and the world.

The seclusion thing was interesting. Very much a last resort to protect the patient or others, I know that is đź’Ż fact.


Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 6:56pm
There's a few 0800 numbers, e.g. Lifeline, which you can call and it seems to be the most popular solution apart from self-help websites, that doctors refer you to these days. I nice that those orgs provide these services, however I don't see them as sufficient in any way for someone with serious depression and nothing we should rely on as the main response. You get someone to talk to, which might better you a bit in a bad situation, but it does not replace therapy. There's no single councellour dealing with you, no follow up on where you left off last time you spoke...you talk to whoever is available at the time and end up repeating your story from scratch again and again...you might end up feeling better, but the chance is you feel even more hopeless due to the repetitive nature and no progress. Distribution of Medication is the lesser issue in my opinion. Any GP can prescribe them, however it's too often seen as the only way to help people and distributed as a quick fix. Most often it's not. First of all, none of the antidepressants works quickly, none of them works for everyone...what helps one person might make someone else feel even worse. It can be a long process of trial and error. Benzodiazipines are given out without enough warning about their addictive nature imo. I've had them in states of extreme anxiety and at the time they are great...they work quick and you feel fine for the next hours...but your body builds up tolerance quickly and you will need a higher dose quickly. Once you're off them, you're back in the same **** as before, unless you manage to use those better periods to work towards feeling better, something that is way easier, if you receive therapy that helps you with it. I've seen people who received Benzo prescriptions for a year or longer, before they were taken off them frome one day to the next...Zombies would describe some of them in the withdrawal stage pretty well, others turned to the black market to continue feeding their addiction. One of them was on 40-50 pills a day before he was sent to rehab - I took 1 a day in my worst stages and made it clear from the beginning that I do not want to have them prescribed to me for more than 2 weeks, knowing of what they can do to you long term.
The main thing lacking in my opinion is the affordable access to both stationary and ambulant therapy and councelling services. Clinics where people can stay for a few weeks with daily 1on1 and group therapy sessions without trying to cope with their day to day struggles on top of the depression are common overseas and covered by public or private health insurance, but almost non-existent here. The two or three private ones I'm aware of, you need to be filthy rich to pay for.
Private ambulant therapy sessions are easier to find - at least, if you can afford to pay 100-200/hr over a longer period of time for a Psychotherapist or counselor - plus you need to find one that works for you first. If you do find one and can afford it, it's the best thing available over here imo.
Unfortunately health insurance coverage for mental health is beyond a joke. Mine, which is by far not the worst, has an allowance that covers the cost of approx. 2.5 visits to a Psychiatrist annually, while I could spend hundreds of thousands to fix serious physical illnesses.

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Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 7:06pm
"Personally I would go fishing, have a good meal or just spend some good time with family. Basically having a bit of gratitude for where I am in life and the world."

You can do that, when you feel a bit down. I doubt you will do it, if you're suffering from chronic depression. Or if you really manage to get out, you might spend hours crying on the river or the boat, because the thing you used to enjoy only feels hard and meaningless. You won't feel gratitude, because you will see your life being bad and hopeless, even if the reality is different.

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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 8:03pm
Sorry to hear about your struggles Big Earn. Fortunately I have never got near that, but it does not mean I don’t feel stressed or down sometimes. And that is my personal remedy.

I remember the JK ads saying similar things.


Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 6:44am
I remember a thing being reported in Australia 20 years ago what with closing of MH units etc. I assume it is the same here but in the US something like 80% of homeless have MH issues, addiction or both. 

With respect to Jacinda I guess the article is just pointing out the obvious, nothing she has campaigned on has come to pass save for very simple things like increasing taxes and benefits 


Posted By: Reel Deal
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 7:21am
Big Earn you are so right. My mother took on too much work in a family business and took everything personally so any failure she absorbed it. Over 6 months she went from bad to worse. Her favourite thing was to walk raglan main beach just before a storm eating fishing chips feeling the electricity and power of nature. The occasion came up and I left work grabbed her and went to the beach hoping she could have her same experience, and lift her spirit. She struggled to leave the car crying and cramping, I coxed her out and she got to the beach and just cried and rocked while I hugged her. I learnt how much I didn’t know about depression that day and set my mind to learning more. I have helped a few friends, one on the day he planned to die. My mother got given opioids and is happy all the time and can’t get off them after 15 years. Like most people who go to their doctor for help. Don’t know which is worse. I guess happy with random character changes wins over depression. Everyone gets depression most dont know they are experiencing it.



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The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb


Posted By: OuttaHere
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Personally I would go fishing, have a good meal or just spend some good time with family. Basically having a bit of gratitude for where I am in life and the world.



That's "a bit down" and how people who are fundamentally relatively mentally healthy deal with stress etc.

When you're clinically depressed you can't function like that. How do you go fishing if you can't face getting out of bed? I know people who, at the height of their depression, couldn't bring themselves to get in a car because they were worried they would just drive off the outside of the first decent corner.

EDIT: One bloke I know would drive his motorbike home from work each evening and basically debate just launching it under the front of each oncoming car. That is not the kind of depression you can fix with a day's fishing and a nice sit down with your family.

Double edit: Perhaps this kinda highlights why NZ can't yet make meaningful progress on mental health. There are still a load of people out there who have little to no concept of what it means to have clinical-grade mental health issues, and dare I say it but they should consider that a blessing.


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 2:04pm
Why so many mental health problems? I thought we were supposed to live in Godzone!?


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 3:52pm
We all feel stressed and down at times.But the problem is when its really on top of you and opening up.Opening up to friend,wife or go to the Doctor and once there"say i dont know I am here" and that is the problem.
Those that hide or do not accept they are suffering and not knowing where to turn.Sure as heck if I tried to explain my mate (known him 30 odd yrs) proberly do what most would do.
"**** thats no good" and carry on as normal.
Theres still that element around.Oh pussy or sissy,get over it.


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 4:40pm

Deinstitutionationlisn  started in the 1960.s Big bins ( Carrington, Porirua, sunnyside)  only institutionalised people and robbed then of their ability to attempt to gain some normalcy in life. Promoting people to live independantly with supports  was and is a better model.


Remember that mental health is not just the public health system, it includes private health care providers and primary health care services( GPs)

The public system is essentially the acute tip of a pyramid.











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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 6:00am
Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Why so many mental health problems? I thought we were supposed to live in Godzone!?


If I could give an honest one word opinion answer it would be addiction.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 6:22am
Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Personally I would go fishing, have a good meal or just spend some good time with family. Basically having a bit of gratitude for where I am in life and the world.



That's "a bit down" and how people who are fundamentally relatively mentally healthy deal with stress etc.

When you're clinically depressed you can't function like that. How do you go fishing if you can't face getting out of bed? I know people who, at the height of their depression, couldn't bring themselves to get in a car because they were worried they would just drive off the outside of the first decent corner.

EDIT: One bloke I know would drive his motorbike home from work each evening and basically debate just launching it under the front of each oncoming car. That is not the kind of depression you can fix with a day's fishing and a nice sit down with your family.

Double edit: Perhaps this kinda highlights why NZ can't yet make meaningful progress on mental health. There are still a load of people out there who have little to no concept of what it means to have clinical-grade mental health issues, and dare I say it but they should consider that a blessing.


In your opinion how did they reach that place?

https://depression.org.nz/" rel="nofollow - https://depression.org.nz/

I already highlighted JK for obvious reasons. I don’t think anything in the site was too different to what I said in helping yourself.
The only thing that would null and void good advice on that site is an addiction.




Posted By: Reel Deal
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 6:34am
funny of all the people I have worked with with depression non had addiction. Couple were family issues and most work related. Stress anxiety pressure undermining their performance then depression sets in and then it’s coupling living in darkness with no air and no hope.

I found as with my mother the doctors “cures” create addiction. Opioids at varying levels for life. 



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The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 8:15am
That maybe your experience but it is not what I am told in most emergency cases. It normally involves some elevated level usage of drugs or alcohol over a long period. And severe ones at that.


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Why so many mental health problems? I thought we were supposed to live in Godzone!?


If I could give an honest one word opinion answer it would be addiction.

OK, so why some much addiction in godzone?


Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 10:00am
So your theory is that it's mainly people with addiction problems who end up with depression? Sorry to say it that bluntly, but that sounds like bull**** from someone who has never really been involved with the topic or with people affected by it. My guess is you wouldn't recognize who's affected by it and if you did, you would ask yourself, why those people are depressed...no addictions, healthy lifestyles, successful in their job with money in the bank, family and kids...still they end up in this dark place. No question, some of them might turn to drugs or alcohol once their life collapses, but saying it's mainly a druggies and alcoholics illness is far from reality.
As you might have figured out by now, I had my personal experience going through it...more than once unfortunately. Never done drugs apart from the odd puff of weed in younger years, hardly drink alcohol, good childhood, two degrees, good paying job, house, not much to worry about really...there's lots of people who'd have more reason to be depressed than me. Still it hit me and turned me into someone I wouldn't recognize myself.
From all the people I have met over the last 20 or so years who were affected - and that's been quite a few here and overseas...can't give you a number, but you'd need more than a few hands to count them, there's been exactly one person who had alcohol issues. Nurses, lawyers, tradies, CEO's of international companies, stay at home moms, entrepreneurs, retirees, people in professional sports...it's been a cut through society and most people would be surprised to hear that any of them suffered from it...unless they had experienced depression themselves before.
Addiction is not the cause, but in a system that doesn't provide decent support, for some it might seem as the only way out once they struggled for help for a while without receiving any. As I said, never been into drugs, but if someone had offered me a shot of Heroin in my darkest days, I'm not sure I would've declined it. I would've done pretty much everything to get rid of that feeling

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Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 10:49am
Drug & alcohol addiction is just one component.
Bad relationship addiction
Body image addiction
The numerous sex addictions
Gambling addiction
And all sorts of others too.

I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off





Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

That maybe your experience but it is not what I am told in most emergency cases. It normally involves some elevated level usage of drugs or alcohol over a long period. And severe ones at that.

Antedotal evidence from "my wife who works as an ED nurse" shows your ignorance


I dont think you  personally will ever be able to  definiitively define the cause of another persons mental illness.  




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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 1:14pm
"I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off"

Sorry to disappoint, still doesn't match most people from my experience. What's next? Coffee addiction, tackle addiction...? I don't think people with no knowledge of the issue making assumptions or judgements like you do is in any way beneficial, if we want to work towards better options to help people with this illness.


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: OuttaHere
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Drug & alcohol addiction is just one component.
Bad relationship addiction
Body image addiction
The numerous sex addictions
Gambling addiction
And all sorts of others too.

I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off





Do you even know what serotonin is? Or an SSRI?

Your attitude towards this is frankly pretty offensive to people that have been through depression. Acting like it's some sort of moral failing. Why does NZ have such a problem with mental health? A big slice of it is people with attitudes like yours.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

That maybe your experience but it is not what I am told in most emergency cases. It normally involves some elevated level usage of drugs or alcohol over a long period. And severe ones at that.


Antedotal evidence from "my wife who works as an ED nurse" shows your ignorance


I dont think you  personally will ever be able to  definiitively define the cause of another persons mental illness.  




What is your ED experience?


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Drug & alcohol addiction is just one component.
Bad relationship addiction
Body image addiction
The numerous sex addictions
Gambling addiction
And all sorts of others too.

I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off





Do you even know what serotonin is? Or an SSRI?

Your attitude towards this is frankly pretty offensive to people that have been through depression. Acting like it's some sort of moral failing. Why does NZ have such a problem with mental health? A big slice of it is people with attitudes like yours.


How is it offensive? MH is more than simply depression it a wide range of things as I pointed out. There are specialists in nearly all the various fields.

Oh wow you are pinning MH on “people like me”?
Good one


Posted By: OuttaHere
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Drug & alcohol addiction is just one component.
Bad relationship addiction
Body image addiction
The numerous sex addictions
Gambling addiction
And all sorts of others too.

I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off





Do you even know what serotonin is? Or an SSRI?

Your attitude towards this is frankly pretty offensive to people that have been through depression. Acting like it's some sort of moral failing. Why does NZ have such a problem with mental health? A big slice of it is people with attitudes like yours.


How is it offensive? MH is more than simply depression it a wide range of things as I pointed out. There are specialists in nearly all the various fields.

Oh wow you are pinning MH on “people like me”?
Good one


You are painting depression as some kind of moral failing.

Imagine a good friend comes to you saying they're so unhappy that they can't see a way forward and they're thinking about taking their own life... and you reply "oh it's because of your addictions".

In other words, yes, your ignorance and judgement are part of the problem.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by BigEarn BigEarn wrote:

"I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off"

Sorry to disappoint, still doesn't match most people from my experience. What's next? Coffee addiction, tackle addiction...? I don't think people with no knowledge of the issue making assumptions or judgements like you do is in any way beneficial, if we want to work towards better options to help people with this illness.


Hi BigEarn, firstly not judging anyone or making assumptions. I certainly have not dismissed anything you have said because it is something I can’t, I am listening. And yes you are correct about depression, surely the toughest of all the MH issues

But you have been incredulous in your responses to my posts which I find somewhat strange.
Is addiction to the things I have outlined not MH issues in some way? That general family and social harm caused by such are not a problem here in NZ?

So far no one seems to be able to diagnose why in particular NZ has such a bad MH record. Is asking the question and trying to find an answer, yes even if it offends not the way forward?

https://mentalhealth.inquiry.govt.nz/inquiry-report/he-ara-oranga/chapter-3-what-we-think/3-2-our-conclusions/" rel="nofollow - https://mentalhealth.inquiry.govt.nz/inquiry-report/he-ara-oranga/chapter-3-what-we-think/3-2-our-conclusions/

It’s about the best I could find on this.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Drug & alcohol addiction is just one component.
Bad relationship addiction
Body image addiction
The numerous sex addictions
Gambling addiction
And all sorts of others too.

I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off





Do you even know what serotonin is? Or an SSRI?

Your attitude towards this is frankly pretty offensive to people that have been through depression. Acting like it's some sort of moral failing. Why does NZ have such a problem with mental health? A big slice of it is people with attitudes like yours.


How is it offensive? MH is more than simply depression it a wide range of things as I pointed out. There are specialists in nearly all the various fields.

Oh wow you are pinning MH on “people like me”?
Good one


You are painting depression as some kind of moral failing.

Imagine a good friend comes to you saying they're so unhappy that they can't see a way forward and they're thinking about taking their own life... and you reply "oh it's because of your addictions".

In other words, yes, your ignorance and judgement are part of the problem.


No I am not, you are trying to take a moral high ground on me for some strange reason. We can have a civil conversation you make your point and I will have mine. I am aware that yes depression is surely the hardest one to diagnose and indeed treat. For the record.
What I said was I think addiction is the major social MH issue in NZ.


Posted By: OuttaHere
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Drug & alcohol addiction is just one component.
Bad relationship addiction
Body image addiction
The numerous sex addictions
Gambling addiction
And all sorts of others too.

I gave a one word answer to a complex issue that I don’t think is way off





Do you even know what serotonin is? Or an SSRI?

Your attitude towards this is frankly pretty offensive to people that have been through depression. Acting like it's some sort of moral failing. Why does NZ have such a problem with mental health? A big slice of it is people with attitudes like yours.


How is it offensive? MH is more than simply depression it a wide range of things as I pointed out. There are specialists in nearly all the various fields.

Oh wow you are pinning MH on “people like me”?
Good one


You are painting depression as some kind of moral failing.

Imagine a good friend comes to you saying they're so unhappy that they can't see a way forward and they're thinking about taking their own life... and you reply "oh it's because of your addictions".

In other words, yes, your ignorance and judgement are part of the problem.


No I am not, you are trying to take a moral high ground on me for some strange reason. We can have a civil conversation you make your point and I will have mine. I am aware that yes depression is surely the hardest one to diagnose and indeed treat. For the record.
What I said was I think addiction is the major social MH issue in NZ.


Ok, I've re-read your posts more carefully and I see the point you were trying to make - I'll hop down from my soapbox, my bad.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 3:09pm
I really don’t want to resort to personal attacks. It is a difficult subject of which is in my opinion a tragedy in such a country as NZ. I was flabbergasted when I came here on the numbers of how many people suffer here in such a beautiful country. I think I understand it a bit more in my 23 years living here.

As the Guardian pointed out the rhetoric does not match the results and we all know what Jacinda said when she took power. It was a priority of hers and things have somehow seemingly got worse.



Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 1:48am
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

That maybe your experience but it is not what I am told in most emergency cases. It normally involves some elevated level usage of drugs or alcohol over a long period. And severe ones at that.


Antedotal evidence from "my wife who works as an ED nurse" shows your ignorance


I dont think you  personally will ever be able to  definiitively define the cause of another persons mental illness.  




What is your ED experience?

 22 years ago I completed a Bachelor of nursing then a specialist post grad diploma in mental health nursing,  I spent 14 years as a Duly authorised officer ( 1992 NZ Mental health compulsory assesment and treatment act) I have spent hundreds and hundress of hours in emergency departments, police stations, GP practises, homes,public spaces  sectioning people under the MH act,I have worked in mental health for a total of 20 years, from crisis assesment teams, forensic liason , case management, assesment and triage to managing rural and remote teams.

If MH clients only entry  point was through ED you might  have some second hand  relevant info.... 

 But thats not the case.  and its my experience that general nurses  have a poor understanding of the complexities of mental health......  ( The 3 year bachelor of nursing programme has a 3 month module for mental health)

For MH advise seed a mental health clinician, for physical health emergencies..... see an ED nurse.

As an aside we as a population  we are so much better at talking about MH issues than 20 -30-40 years ago..... And that is progress and a good thing.

If your struggling emotionally on any level, reach out..... your not alone!  We all go thorught difficult phases and people by nature want to help!!!







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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 6:25am
Oh yes my info is relevant Titahi.
What the EDs are currently going through is having MH patients turn up, most often with police.
Most often it involves drugs or alcohol and very often involves nurses getting verbally abused and sometimes struck.
I am sorry this is a fact, there are always a MH patient waiting on a place in ED. And as you know the EDs are often already understaffed. There are cases where people who are not intoxicated indeed show up asking for MH help and the relevant calls are made. But it is a small number compared to what I have outlined.

ED is not for MH patients as you are correct they are not trained in the special needs for MH patients. The spaces they work in are not good for MH patients. Hence the frustration at the rhetoric and the promises from government and what the actual reality is. Which is the whole point of my post and what the Guardian is actually saying too. The service on offer are not up to scratch and is costing general health patients in our EDs.





Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 8:21am
the sum of all anecdotes isn’t data muppet


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 8:52am
Data is facts I totally agree. Although that may not help out in ED this afternoon...

So if you have the data why are things worse?
Where has all the money been allocated too?
Where are the results of the billions of dollars?
Is there new infrastructure on the way? Is there a big number of mental health teams being deployed? Is there a number of new graduates MH specialists coming through?

How about that data? So far there has been no reason to be more optimistic or have any confidence about future MH treatments. Given the data on our results..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/10/new-zealands-wellbeing-budget-made-headlines-but-what-really-changed" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/10/new-zealands-wellbeing-budget-made-headlines-but-what-really-changed

Guardian again.







Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 9:25am
Heres one for you "Muppet" If another Bredon Tyrant (ch-ch killer)turned up at ED and said I want to and commit the crime he did.What ED or a MH unit do for him??
Ring the police or sit down and have a chat over a cuppa of tea??

This is the problem the units are faced with,could set him on his way thinking this is not going to do it

Can they legally hold him?

If let loose and commits the crime what are the consequences for the units involved?

No mater much $$ thrown in their direction the $$ will never stop this crime.
Aromoana David Grey
Stanely Graham


Nz teen suicide.

https://mentalhealth.org.nz/suicide-prevention/suicide-statistics" rel="nofollow - https://mentalhealth.org.nz/suicide-prevention/suicide-statistics

Does New Zealand have the highest suicide rate in the world?

No, but we do have the highest youth suicide rate in the world.

New Zealand sits in the middle of other OECD countries when comparing total population suicide rates. Our suicide rate is higher than Ireland’s or the United Kingdom’s, but lower than Australia’s or the United States’. 


nothing to be proud of,not being in the top.still happening.Is this a result of tax cuts over the yrs which means less funding??Oh but I need a tax cut. Chickens finally coming home to roost,we need to pay more tax ?Better education.Better life styles.Reduce hours at work to spend time with family.  Has this all occurred since the breaking down of unions?? I have no idea but things in NZ have certainly deterriated since the mid 1980s





Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Oh yes my info is relevant Titahi.
What the EDs are currently going through is having MH patients turn up, most often with police.
Most often it involves drugs or alcohol and very often involves nurses getting verbally abused and sometimes struck.
I am sorry this is a fact, there are always a MH patient waiting on a place in ED. And as you know the EDs are often already understaffed. There are cases where people who are not intoxicated indeed show up asking for MH help and the relevant calls are made. But it is a small number compared to what I have outlined.

ED is not for MH patients as you are correct they are not trained in the special needs for MH patients. The spaces they work in are not good for MH patients. Hence the frustration at the rhetoric and the promises from government and what the actual reality is. Which is the whole point of my post and what the Guardian is actually saying too. The service on offer are not up to scratch and is costing general health patients in our EDs.




Attempting to engage you in this toipic is in my oipinion pointless, you already know so much from reading the guardian..... and from your wifes stories. 


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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 3:40pm
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300273535/government-set-to-spend-far-less-on-mental-health-than-promised-in-2019" rel="nofollow - https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300273535/government-set-to-spend-far-less-on-mental-health-than-promised-in-2019

Don’t be confusing my sympathy for people who need help Titahi with my absolute contempt for the shambles who are running the show.

Hence it is in the political section.


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 5:52pm
Ya having a laugh right? You  do realise an unforseen worldwide pandemic occurred between the August 2019 budget forcasts and now.... of course you do, but its doesnt fit your whinging narrative...

I dont think anyone reading this thread would accuse you of sympathy or empathy for that matter, so I havent confused your sympathy.

Have at it, Im out Thumbs Up




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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: Reel Deal
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 6:43pm
so using that logic people who don’t drink or do drugs don’t have mental health issues...it’s too big a brush to paint saying health issues are mainly caused by drugs and booze. Generally people use those to self medicate. Not a cause but a symptom. Also millions use drugs regularly as with alcohol and are fine. 

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The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 8:39pm
No Real Deal that is not what I said.
Addictions of all kinds manifests itself as MH issues as yes a symptom you could say not necessarily the cause. I think it would be most common but that is not a fact just an opinion. As an example if you are drinking a bottle of whiskey a day would that be a fair representation of an average drinker? I think not and that person has issues. Add gambling etc to the list of addictions and you have to think it’s a big number all needing help. Unless you think things like alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling addiction etc etc are not MH issues? I think they are and bad addictions for themselves, their families and society at large.

Titahi Covid can’t be used as an excuse as we have barely been touched by the actual virus. And beating the virus was meant to give us the ability to get on with other issues without actually having the problem the rest of the world has contended with.

Why does the government want to fudge the numbers in the routine MH report? The data are the facts are they not?


Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 7:47am
muppet this is just another version of the conspiracy theory stuff. You make a claim without any data, when people call you on it you ask a bunch of questions of them instead of responding to the challenge.  It’s puerile and tedious. 

What is the point of this thread?

To complain about the government being ineffective on an issue? If yes then you are correct because they haven’t been effective on any issue but MH is difficult like poverty etc so even a competent government would struggle

To argue that all MH health is addiction based? Then give your credentials to show you are skilled in the field and provide the peer reviewed data that supports your claim.

To whinge about something for the sake of it?




Posted By: kingiFiddla
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 9:19am
If anyone wants data then I suggest they fund my kayak fishing therapy initiative and study the results.

I just need about $50k to kick it off.

Maybe Jacinda can yet again be held aloft by the cringe-worthy fruitloops in San-Fran and other woke enclaves. This time by NZ being a world pioneer in kayak fishing therapy for both the mental and physical health of the peasants.

Or, if anyone knows a rich benefactor keen to make a reel difference, please let me know.


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

22 years ago I completed a Bachelor of nursing then a specialist post grad diploma in mental health nursing,  I spent 14 years as a Duly authorised officer ( 1992 NZ Mental health compulsory assesment and treatment act) I have spent hundreds and hundress of hours in emergency departments, police stations, GP practises, homes,public spaces  sectioning people under the MH act,I have worked in mental health for a total of 20 years, from crisis assesment teams, forensic liason , case management, assesment and triage to managing rural and remote teams.

If MH clients only entry  point was through ED you might  have some second hand  relevant info.... 

 But thats not the case.  and its my experience that general nurses  have a poor understanding of the complexities of mental health......  ( The 3 year bachelor of nursing programme has a 3 month module for mental health)

For MH advise seed a mental health clinician, for physical health emergencies..... see an ED nurse.

As an aside we as a population  we are so much better at talking about MH issues than 20 -30-40 years ago..... And that is progress and a good thing.

If your struggling emotionally on any level, reach out..... your not alone!  We all go thorught difficult phases and people by nature want to help!!!


Wow! You are very well qualified to talk about this stuff. Why do you think there are so many mental health problems in NZ? Is it just a lack of mental health services, or are there factors underlying it all?


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 10:46am


There you go Kingifiddla.




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Top 10 finish
2022 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: kingiFiddla
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 11:04am
Hahahaha. There's no amount of therapy that will save you, kitno.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 11:11am
Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

22 years ago I completed a Bachelor of nursing then a specialist post grad diploma in mental health nursing,  I spent 14 years as a Duly authorised officer ( 1992 NZ Mental health compulsory assesment and treatment act) I have spent hundreds and hundress of hours in emergency departments, police stations, GP practises, homes,public spaces  sectioning people under the MH act,I have worked in mental health for a total of 20 years, from crisis assesment teams, forensic liason , case management, assesment and triage to managing rural and remote teams.

If MH clients only entry  point was through ED you might  have some second hand  relevant info.... 

 But thats not the case.  and its my experience that general nurses  have a poor understanding of the complexities of mental health......  ( The 3 year bachelor of nursing programme has a 3 month module for mental health)

For MH advise seed a mental health clinician, for physical health emergencies..... see an ED nurse.

As an aside we as a population  we are so much better at talking about MH issues than 20 -30-40 years ago..... And that is progress and a good thing.

If your struggling emotionally on any level, reach out..... your not alone!  We all go thorught difficult phases and people by nature want to help!!!


Wow! You are very well qualified to talk about this stuff. Why do you think there are so many mental health problems in NZ? Is it just a lack of mental health services, or are there factors underlying it all?


Exactly


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 11:14am
Originally posted by whippersnappyr whippersnappyr wrote:

muppet this is just another version of the conspiracy theory stuff. You make a claim without any data, when people call you on it you ask a bunch of questions of them instead of responding to the challenge.  It’s puerile and tedious. 

What is the point of this thread?

To complain about the government being ineffective on an issue? If yes then you are correct because they haven’t been effective on any issue but MH is difficult like poverty etc so even a competent government would struggle

To argue that all MH health is addiction based? Then give your credentials to show you are skilled in the field and provide the peer reviewed data that supports your claim.

To whinge about something for the sake of it?




Remember the rhetoric?
What is the point of the big spending with no tangible results? Just a whole bunch of vagueness.
Please don’t add in the myth of poverty either.


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2021 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

 Why do you think there are so many mental health problems in NZ? Is it just a lack of mental health services, or are there factors underlying it all?

Ive been thinking about your question for a couple of days and how best to respond...... 

Truth is I dont know  the why ...... 

I do know that the prevalance  of mental health has not significantly increased in the past 30 years,  population adjusted ( substance use disorders, mild, moderate and acute MH issues)
As we become better at treating some disorders the prevalance of others increases.

Think back to pre internet and your source of information was  typically a local paper, TV1 TV2 or TV3. 

Think back to yesterday and how many sources of information did you access?

The advent of social media has surely played a part in our greater exposure to those with MH issues as has our understanding and acceptance.

New Zealand has national stategies and initiatives, however because we rely on 20 district health boards to implement strategic  direction, we  then  often have disparate results. District health boards build IT systems that arent compatable with the heallth board down the road, GP's use a multitude of different systems to record medical records and none are compatable with each other or the health board systems. This is  a result of having 20 different health board, comonly called the silo effect.....

I cant answer if there is a lack of services.

The field of dreams analogy of "if you build it they will come"  springs to mind, but at what point do you stop building  acute inpatient units and start to address the problem from another direction?

 Finally I think the answer   to better health outcomes, isnt  just a funding one. It starts at kindergarten and school.  Better education outcomes will flow to better socio economic outcomes  which will facilitate better health outcomes. 

 




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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2021 at 7:46am
Personally, I think that you are very much along the right lines there T.
Stats of metal health, around the world, before , as social media has developed and now show a very clear  relationship, espec in youth.

Throw the wider publicity, and everyone getting in on the band wagon to blame something, and make bigger issues than should be, of how everyone has a bad day or feels a bit down or stressed is now a major mental health issue.. And the Marketing/ propaganda that says little stuff is not normal.

Then apply where all this day to day normal stuff now needs support, which takes resources and funding away from the actual real serious cases.

Noticed a add on TV the other evening, a pill to take because you may feel a little stressed...
Think ther common sence thru.
1/you are being told being stressed on a stressful day at work is not normal.
2/ You need to take a pill for it  ...not roll with it yourself.
3/You dont learn to roll with the normal ups and downs.
4/ you now take a pill for it and damn near everything else (good food is not enough)
5/ And now what happens if stop taking the pill, and not learnt to handle normal day to day stuff.

That Advert has just trained you to be (not prevent) being a possible mental health person.

And to add to your list there T.. I often wonder how much our modern processed/ takeway, fast foods, and food additives are responsible for a lot of this, then throw in drug abuse .. on top of social media etc.



Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2021 at 11:00am
Might not mean much to you but I like your answer there Titahi very well thought out will think on it.
But a couple of points.
It is a daunting problem but I am genuinely surprised you don’t know if there is a lack of services. Which again you must assume there is...?
You are right about the DHB’s I don’t get it. Within a national health service creating an air of competition should not be the goal if the service is meant to be the same all across the country. Being funded by the taxpayers, it is not a private system.

There is a lot of irony in what Steps said too funnily enough.


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2021 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

 Why do you think there are so many mental health problems in NZ? Is it just a lack of mental health services, or are there factors underlying it all?


Ive been thinking about your question for a couple of days and how best to respond...... 

Truth is I dont know  the why ...... 

I do know that the prevalance  of mental health has not significantly increased in the past 30 years,  population adjusted ( substance use disorders, mild, moderate and acute MH issues)
<span style="font-size: 12px;">As we become better at treating some disorders the prevalance of others increases.</span>

Think back to pre internet and your source of information was  typically a local paper, TV1 TV2 or TV3. 

Think back to yesterday and how many sources of information did you access?

The advent of social media has surely played a part in our greater exposure to those with MH issues as has our understanding and acceptance.

New Zealand has national stategies and initiatives, however because we rely on 20 district health boards to implement strategic  direction, we  then  often have disparate results. District health boards build IT systems that arent compatable with the heallth board down the road, GP's use a multitude of different systems to record medical records and none are compatable with each other or the health board systems. This is  a result of having 20 different health board, comonly called the silo effect.....

I cant answer if there is a lack of services.

The field of dreams analogy of "if you build it they will come"  springs to mind, but at what point do you stop building  acute inpatient units and start to address the problem from another direction?

 Finally I think the answer   to better health outcomes, isnt  just a funding one. It starts at kindergarten and school.  Better education outcomes will flow to better socio economic outcomes  which will facilitate better health outcomes. 

 







Thanks for your considered answer Titahi. Sorry for the delay in response. I've been in the mountains chasing deer (unsuccessfully), my own form of therapy!


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 10:01am
Chasing Venison during the Roar is very  very therapeutic Thumbs Up

I see in this mornings paper that the government plan to abolish the 20 health boards  in an attempt to centralise the fragmented healthcare system........ I think its a good idea.


-------------
"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 10:58am
Me and the Mrs talking about that right now. We're both doctors. We will see!


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 11:16am
I don’t know. To go from one extreme to another.
Three in the NI and two in the south would have been right. Then you get a spread of talent and few different eyes looking at issues with the same authority.



Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2021 at 11:18am
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/124025178/zac-guildford-named-as-former-all-black-sentenced-for-punching-woman-in-the-face-in-appalling-act?fbclid=IwAR3BRM5A9FKzrVQdTxXz_bD2Ia8A2qQJCJYtDH8HT3dDoCJhoeIVK3Mi_e0" rel="nofollow - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/124025178/zac-guildford-named-as-former-all-black-sentenced-for-punching-woman-in-the-face-in-appalling-act?fbclid=IwAR3BRM5A9FKzrVQdTxXz_bD2Ia8A2qQJCJYtDH8HT3dDoCJhoeIVK3Mi_e0

You would like to think a guy who has had so many second chances and earned enough money could get the right help?


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 10 May 2021 at 9:09pm
I heard one of the new youth MH teams were go this morning at a cost of 4.5m on the radio.

They also added prevention from getting to that stage of them being required would be better. That was said in the news by whoever spoke to the journalist not me!


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2021 at 8:24pm
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/just-five-extra-acute-mental-health-beds-after-1-9-billion-investment-in-budget-2019.html?cid=soc3%3Anewshubfb&fbclid=IwAR3xID23PpRV3fySitMQi9faS2fUkfA1t1XqGtaJFzeyLeR9AgQEcIQUbUs" rel="nofollow - https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/just-five-extra-acute-mental-health-beds-after-1-9-billion-investment-in-budget-2019.html?cid=soc3%3Anewshubfb&fbclid=IwAR3xID23PpRV3fySitMQi9faS2fUkfA1t1XqGtaJFzeyLeR9AgQEcIQUbUs

What else can you say?



Posted By: Mr Moritz
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 5:13pm




Posted By: Mr Moritz
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:



There you go Kingifiddla.



SPLASH 
There goes your knighthood Kitno  Big smile


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Mr Moritz Mr Moritz wrote:

SPLASH   There goes your knighthood Kitno  Big smile



Thank goodness. Sir Kitno would be just too much Big smile


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 6:05pm
Sir Kitno, for my services to servicing

-------------
Top 10 finish
2022 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Sir Kitno, for my services to servicing

Uhoh, a megalomaniac in our midst 

Sorry to make light of a serious topic but Mr Moritz started it Big smile

In all seriousness though I really do hope everyone is ok. Feel free to check in if you are or otherwise. I'm happy to take private messages if you're struggling. Not sure if I can help but I will do my best


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 7:11pm
Nymphomaniac smudge


-------------
Top 10 finish
2022 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Nymphomaniac smudge

Thanks for clearing that up


-------------
Best gurnard fisherman in my street



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