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Steps to a socialist state

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Category: General Forums
Forum Name: Politics - Have your say
Forum Description: Have your say about the future of recreational fishing, marine reserves etc
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134181
Printed Date: 31 May 2023 at 3:49pm


Topic: Steps to a socialist state
Posted By: Joker
Subject: Steps to a socialist state
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:58am
I came across this today and its scarily true




Replies:
Posted By: taurangatroutmaster
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 10:22am
This is all exactly what I've been saying for months but I get called a crazy conspiracy theorist haha


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 10:23am
!st hits me straight off.
Simple ever since Nixon.. known for his coruption.. removed state health care in the US.. and all the other countries that dont have state health..
I would prefer a state system based on world example every day.. Even thu we knock them here Canada , Britain etc.
Think a life time of house mortgage a issue.. add an even bigger health bill on that.. even to have a child.. or choose to die instead..

 Poverty... well that works both ways... business suppresses expenses.. historically business would ho slaves again if was legal

 Debt.. yep left wing spends up on  bureaucracy rather than the problem thinking throws money at it solves the problem

Gun Control.. that happens both sides of the house.. just got to look at right wing crushers historical gun stuff during the previous 2 gun control revisions..
 This is historically near either way.. itsd just in recent decades the US influence around the world changed direction since the 70s.

 Welfare.. Governments right from 1st inception.. started from a gruop of citizens pooling money to build a  school, pay a teacher.. same with other basics like a doctor ..
The issue is not being Government , it is professional politicians handing ot bribes to maintain salaries.

Remove religion from government... well that was done a few centuries ago when state and government where separated in Westminster law.  Well before the modern concept of left/ right...still very much a fudal system.

Class system.. thats basic tactic  "divide and conquer" be it muldoon, Hitler trump id Armin, Saddam, Czars, Caesars  .. be it race, culture, ethnicity, political standing or income... regardless of political leaning.
funny they are  near all right wing... call the kettle black

All I see above is a un substantiated , populist statements  designed .. well in modern terms  "False news" BS that is also refereed today as trumpisums.

Not only that near  all stuff Trump.. right wing ...has been doing by calling it another name.


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 11:48am
Gun ownership in modern NZ has never been about defending yourself from the government. There is no legal basis, there is no equivalent of the 2nd amendment. What a load of American crap.

As for healthcare, New Zealanders are in control of their own dentistry, how is that working out for everybody?


Posted By: Reel Deal
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 1:05pm
Yeah reading that list made me feel like a beer, a singlet and I felt the stains on my shirt front growing . I felt all but two of my teeth loosening. Haha

Norway one of the most taxed societies on earth is voted one of the happiest...that goes against the theme.
Basically there is no silver bullet everyone’s wants and needs are different. You can’t make a system that everyone is happy about all systems are open for abuse and corruption. 
Seems the best system is a blend of Socialism, capitalism, communism, democracy, dictatorship...just need the that blend to benefit the most.

End of the day treat people how you want to be treated, be tolerant to other opinions and beliefs, look after the environment 


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The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb


Posted By: Clifftastic
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 2:03pm
Its quite alarming reading motorway signs today - Mandatory Masks on Public Transport, the news saying Police patrolling buses and trains to make sure people are complying....Level 2.5.....masks are good, Jacinda in a mask in Auckland for a quick photo op. The red flags are flying.

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Posted By: REIVER
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 4:21pm
Not sure what the problem with socialism is. Where has rampant capitalism got us? It is all very confusing (said Merv) The so called right wing party in NZ politics have an alarming reliance on an extreme Communist country. Their herd immunity market driven economy led suggestions to handling this health crisis would have seen us in deep dark blue trouble. I am glad we have a Coalition in charge (for the moment) The thought of any other alternative at the moment terrifies me.


Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 5:37pm
It takes just 15 seconds to find that the OP's post is fake and that the comments attributed to Saul Alinsky were never said or written by him.  The false claims are at least 6 years old.




Posted By: Schampy
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 7:07pm
Whats the problem with Socialism?
A majority of people who want it in this country are not the people who are going to trouble of getting a decent education, taking on huge dept and risking everything, starting a business from nothing and working ya arse off 7 days  a week to get ahead..... Sorry. If you want something in life... you bloody earn it.


Posted By: BeastMode
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 7:32pm
Amen.

Originally posted by Schampy Schampy wrote:

Whats the problem with Socialism?[DIV]A majority of people who want it in this country are not the people who are going to trouble of getting a decent education, taking on huge dept and risking everything, starting a business from nothing and working ya arse off 7 days  a week to get ahead..... Sorry. If you want something in life... you bloody earn it.[/DIV]


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 8:08pm
It is quite funny how they always quote Norway now lol. Sweden was the nordic poster child until they did Covid their way.

Regarding tax by the time you pay your income tax and then GST on your purchases. And then tax on your bills, savings etc it is most likely 50% of your income in line with the much vaunted Nordic system.

And it is still not enough for the bottom feeders who want you to work for them, amazing.
And of course the rich will still be rich but good for them I say.


Posted By: Clifftastic
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 11:09pm
It's a bit long, but reinforces what many probably understand about the absurdity of wearing any old piece of rag around your face. Note Dr Ashley earlier in the year, compared to politician Ashley now...




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Posted By: Boyo
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 9:10am
We see enough of this divisive **** on Facebook. Let's keep this fishing/boating forum to just that.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Boyo Boyo wrote:

We see enough of this divisive **** on Facebook. Let's keep this fishing/boating forum to just that.
 
Indeed


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: taurangatroutmaster
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 10:42am
Thought this part of the forum was to discuss non fishing political things?


Posted By: Clifftastic
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 10:46am
Sorry, I should have looked more closely at the Forum section I was in and the original post. My bad.

Maybe i'll try put the mask piece it into a boating context:-

If power meets power, when meeting head on, powerboats must turn to starboard - unless the Government goes changes it's mind and tells you it's okay to do it differently. In fact, you can come up with your own approach at home and see how that works out.




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Posted By: Dr.Um
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 10:57am
Totally agree Steps. My take is that only the super rich have anything to fear from socialism, and that's not a bad thing. Those statements could equally apply to a fascist government too.


Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 11:20am
Originally posted by taurangatroutmaster taurangatroutmaster wrote:

Thought this part of the forum was to discuss non fishing political things?

Yep you're discussing a post that is fake


Posted By: Schampy
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Boyo Boyo wrote:

We see enough of this divisive **** on Facebook. Let's keep this fishing/boating forum to just that.
Is this not the political section of the fishing forum?...
Not saying im supporting whats being posted....
But whats the point of coming in here and telling everyone to shut it.
You dont have to click on the "politics" section if you dont want to.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Clifftastic Clifftastic wrote:

It's a bit long, but reinforces what many probably understand about the absurdity of wearing any old piece of rag around your face. Note Dr Ashley earlier in the year, compared to politician Ashley now...




The video is spot on.
The whole mask thing needs looking at I wonder who has got serious investments in manufacturing companies.

My wife has those fitted masks at ED and yes they are good for 2-3 hours.
Our standard ones as the video says, useless.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by taurangatroutmaster taurangatroutmaster wrote:

Thought this part of the forum was to discuss non fishing political things?

Yes it is. Surely I'm allowed to express my opinion too though. Personally I'd rather not see these discussions on this site but there is a forum for it and that's all good. I'm only really here to ensure the handbags don't get thrown around Big smile. carry on.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: doctor fish
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Clifftastic Clifftastic wrote:

It's a bit long, but reinforces what many probably understand about the absurdity of wearing any old piece of rag around your face. Note Dr Ashley earlier in the year, compared to politician Ashley now...




This is Video is absolutely correct , I'm surprised they haven't taken it down by now!  "As the only truth is what you hear from us at these 1 pm press conferences"LOL

I wear surgical masks everyday at work and am reasonably qualified to comment.

Masks don't stop viruses getting in through the mucous membranes of your eyes. It is also  a widely known fact that prolonged or incorrect mask usage may even provide an environment that could allow respiratory  infections to occur.

Its all about compliance and control based on fear. Personally Im not concerned about catching Covid but very concerned about the governments response to it, the damage to our economy and the giving up of our rights and freedoms that will never be regained.




Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 8:47am
Masks don't stop viruses getting in through the mucous membranes of your eyes. It is also  a widely known fact that prolonged or incorrect mask usage may even provide an environment that could allow respiratory  infections to occur.


 Correct. which is why professionals also have glasses/ shields right?
They are working all day in a risk environment that ups their risk factor hugely right?
 The mask by its self, even statically still make as a huge difference to infection rates...even in high risk places... and reduces risk even higher in public far lower risk areas espec when combined with distancing..
Pretty much common sense logic really backed up by science. Note how I put the common sense logic before the 'science' bit.
 High risk activity mask and sheilds, lower risk mask only..

Personally Im not concerned about catching Covid

Well thats you and your selfish point of view.. thats a a statement not a dig..
 Think it is about 80% of NZ population is over weight.
 We have have a high  heart/ respiratory and diabetic rate in NZ to almost epidemic proportions.
We have a high proportion of races in NZ that are genetically prone to flu s and espec Covid19.
And we have a high proportion of the population that is in the risk age group..
And thats doesnt5 take into account parents grandparent in rest homes who are at high risk.
 We have already seen that here in NZ already.

And you only care about yourself..not a mention of the majority of other kiwis at risk....
Reallly?

the damage to our economy

Well we could limit , eventually eliminate and go into lockdown and damage the economy.. hard.. which we have done and doing right and you dont like..
 
Or we could do what other countries have done .. from let it rip to a limited out of control.
The cost to economies on the medical / emergency services being huge over very long period.. this is still not over around the world. Then throw in a serious of lockdowns that hert the economies even more than what we have.
 And at the end of the day still have the cost of the bulldozers to dig the mass graves...which we dont have.

To most of us when looking at the actual alternatives.. ye we are lucky.. it it was luck, that our non political appointed bureaucrats responsible to make the call did so.

and the giving up of our rights and freedoms that will never be regained.

And that it scaremongering BS that has no substance to back it up in NZ and most other westminter based governments around the world.
 We just have to look to WW2.. rationing food, energy, told where to work and when,forced to join army and die on the battlefeild. What you can grow in the garden and where and when...
 Or the depression, again rationing , told where to live, where t work.. told to work or starve.
 Then look at the 51 water front crisis, or the limitations in the 2 fuel crisis of the 70s.
 Then ther was the polo lockdowns restrictions also in the 50s
 Or the reforms after the muldoon era of late 80s/ 90s.

What we temporally give up now has nothing on what we and previous generations gave up back then...Generations who did so to provide a better future for their children and country.
 And did provide.. if they had not you would not have the "freedoms " to give up now

 The difference back then is the world had basically been over 100s yrs continuously at war, having pandemics go thru.. typhoid, Spanish flu s, polo, tuberculosis , malaria, measles , chicken pox .. just to name a few. Populations grew up with these emergency 'restrictions'.

The generations, in general, after the early baby boomers have never had such wars, emergency situations , espec nationally and have become spoiled and self centered as illustrated in the wording of your post.
 
I have as far as possible backed my argument with actual examples , common sense reasons etc.
yours has none of these to back any of your statements.
 They are stand alone unsubstantiated fringe statements..and that is why they are "fringe"






Posted By: Dr.Um
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 11:30am
Drfish, mask wearing stops the virus you are breathing out from being widely spread and getting into other people's eyes. It's actually about respect for other people,which is clearly a difficult concept. As for criticizing the health advice, this is an evolving situation and the government is clearly trying to protect business while trying to save lives.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 5:18pm
Sorry but have seen numerous opinions from qualified people saying our off the shelves masks are no good. My wife in ED has got specific fitted masks for her that are 98-99% effective and they have to be changed regular. And eye protection.

Steps according to official stats from overseas out of this cluster we should have had one, two possibly three deaths out of the average figures.

The treatments are getting better.
A saliva test is on the way it seems.

Lets not live in fear.


Posted By: doctor fish
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Dr.Um Dr.Um wrote:

Drfish, mask wearing stops the virus you are breathing out from being widely spread and getting into other people's eyes. It's actually about respect for other people,which is clearly a difficult concept. As for criticizing the health advice, this is an evolving situation and the government is clearly trying to protect business while trying to save lives.

Yes of course,  however  one would hope someone infectious with corona virus is not on a bus wearing a mask but in MIQ. 

What happens when you take your mask on and off during the day with your hands and touch something, anything a door handle for example? 

What about respect for a change for the people  that are not convinced by this Governments approach.

 I think its great to criticise the government and hold them to account for their  actions, it affects all of us.  Is it genuine health advice or advice for pure political gain.

How many lives have they saved?






Posted By: Wanda_Ra
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 8:19pm
I would rather live in a socialist country than one with national in charge.
Nine years of national totally screwed NZ.
 Hers a great summing up of National.

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/munted/" rel="nofollow - https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/munted/


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If you think you are too small to make a difference,try sleeping with a mosquito in your tent.


Posted By: reel crayze
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by doctor fish doctor fish wrote:

Originally posted by Dr.Um Dr.Um wrote:

Drfish, mask wearing stops the virus you are breathing out from being widely spread and getting into other people's eyes. It's actually about respect for other people,which is clearly a difficult concept. As for criticizing the health advice, this is an evolving situation and the government is clearly trying to protect business while trying to save lives.

Yes of course,  however  one would hope someone infectious with corona virus is not on a bus wearing a mask but in MIQ. 

What happens when you take your mask on and off during the day with your hands and touch something, anything a door handle for example? 

What about respect for a change for the people  that are not convinced by this Governments approach.

 I think its great to criticise the government and hold them to account for their  actions, it affects all of us.  Is it genuine health advice or advice for pure political gain.

How many lives have they saved?




 
How many lives have they saved ???...
 
Sweden [lets try a social experiment on our people] , 10 million people, 5800 plus deaths, NZ 5 million people 22 deaths...  Please dont tell me you cant compare them.  So by my calculations we have saved more than a few ? 


Posted By: Dr.Um
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 12:02am
Dr fish, i do respect this governments attempts, and have absolutely no confidence, based on the performance of the procession of leaders of the main opposition party, that things would be any better. if there is a change in government a lot more of us will die. this may take a while to get going, as transmission does appear reduced in summer and warmer climates, but they will absolutely throw caution to the wind at the first sign that things are 'under control.' we would be dealing with burst bubbles with Australia already if Winston had got his way. the current government is struggling at the moment with financial and business pressure to open up, and i'm sure would be locking down more if it was feasible. You are dead right about changing gloves and gear, all of it is a risk, (and one i have to take many times a day) but the whole idea is about a general reduction of transmission that reduces the numbers so that isolation and contact tracing can kick in, again, not about the individual, because that would require full level 4 lockdown. So if we are not going to have level 4 lockdowns we need to buy ourselves as much containment time as we can. Just hope we don't get a level 3-4 in the game fishing season, cause that'll just about finish me off!


Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 8:24am
Why don’t you feel the need to address the string of obvious (it would seem to anyone other than the current government) mistakes and misleading claims that have been made.

It has become clear that a re-seeding of COVID-19 was pretty much a certainty. Given the consequences to both public health, the economy and the livelihood of everyday kiwis this incompetence is inexcusable.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 4:39pm
Yep we had done the hard yards.

So the solution is stay home under the duvet and watch people lose incomes and the country go broke?


Posted By: Dr.Um
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 9:52pm
Nope, the hard yards will be if the virus takes hold. We did some hard yards, but this is a global problem. At 56 and a front line primary care gp, I have plenty of reason to be pissed off and scared that the virus is back. This is something I am unable to avoid. People seem to think it's a question of covid vs economy. We still don't know where this latest outbreak came from, but let's face it, a lot of stuff happens in the import export business that is illegal (drugs for example) and would not be a stretch to believe this latest outbreak was related to illegal activity from organized crime. As yet there has not been a significant out break from a quarantine facility. The government is undoubtably aware they will be unable to control all criminal elements and has realistically taken the approach that hotspot management may be a better longterm strategy while we try and minimize impacts both fiscal and social from this disease, in the hope of a vaccine, or a reduction in virulence (virus potency over time...not unreasonable) while the rest of the world struggles with disease and economic strife


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2020 at 4:32am
Maybe this should be in the covid thread but he I go.
Auckland has a resurgence of the virus,where it come from is pretty obvious but yet to be proved.
Level 4 for AK only 2 weeks,no leaving Ak area work etc.Border at Airport closed 4 weeks(no returnees)once virus tided up like we had.Then let limited numbers in and follow correct quarantine rules(isolation).
Cannot see how a resugence is through imported goods,imported goods have been arriving during previous lockdowns.
It has to be border breach (even though govt denies)Winstone Peters talking Hoskin Friday morning pretty much confirmed that the army is still not running isolation,there is only about 5 personnel involved still very much in the hands of private companies.

We have to wear mask at point of delivery and being disposable,10 minutes use they are soaked so breathing back in ones own saliva etc,


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2020 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Dr.Um Dr.Um wrote:

Nope, the hard yards will be if the virus takes hold. We did some hard yards, but this is a global problem. At 56 and a front line primary care gp, I have plenty of reason to be pissed off and scared that the virus is back. This is something I am unable to avoid. People seem to think it's a question of covid vs economy. We still don't know where this latest outbreak came from, but let's face it, a lot of stuff happens in the import export business that is illegal (drugs for example) and would not be a stretch to believe this latest outbreak was related to illegal activity from organized crime. As yet there has not been a significant out break from a quarantine facility. The government is undoubtably aware they will be unable to control all criminal elements and has realistically taken the approach that hotspot management may be a better longterm strategy while we try and minimize impacts both fiscal and social from this disease, in the hope of a vaccine, or a reduction in virulence (virus potency over time...not unreasonable) while the rest of the world struggles with disease and economic strife

I hope you would realise that your scenario why possible is unlikely.  The most likely scenario is the obvious one. Covid reentered via the border either through the quarantine hotels, the well publicised escapees or the ports. Enough info has come to light to point out it was only a matter of time for this to occur because obvious steps to manage the process were either not taken by the government or were assumed to be taken without any follow up or oversight.  There is simply no need to invent alternative explanations. 

The only additional information I would like is whether they have sequenced the genome of known escapees to see if they match the current outbreak (for example the chap who escaped in Auckland and was positive and went to the countdown in the city).


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2020 at 9:18am
We had our rogue outbreak, along with complancy in the community causing further serious , anf hairy inplications. Thro in a few inefficienhcies... And its under control.

Last few days all community cases have been detected in those already in isolation.. i.e. a family member gets a +ve.. the whole household plus maybe a few others get to keep them company..Wink

Its a shame the media doesnt make where the community +ves are.. if  OUT IN the community or  already in isolation like the border cases are.

Anyway I have been crunching stats from reliable data and come up with some interesting results.
 I can now say the next Auckland (at least ) lockdown will be in around 5 to 6 weeks time.

 So far every knockdown has been jst after I have been thinking "I need a hair cut" and the wife then tells me to get one tomorrow..
 Also It can be guaranteed that we will have ideal weather , and tide times  for the waikato bar. Ideal being the best in the last few yrs.
Studied stats yrs ago, so have a basic uderstanding of checking source and data.
Our 1st lecture covered source and data  and how with simply manipulation one can make stats justfy anything you like..
Sort of  make the facts fit a predetermined thought or concept, rather than have them determine the thought / concept.
 Our politicians are real bad (or good depends on your piont of veiw) at it...
 The the real experts, the conspirousy theorists...whos preconceived concept alows then to totally ignore any data on the basis that their beilfs will be gone out the window and have a read face.

So personally I prefer the read face  and untill data comes to light that  me being due for a hair cut and weather /tides on the waikato bar go good...Its about 6 weeks to the next lockdown.
OH and I do not own a 5G phone, but like 99% of households who have internet have 5G active in our household and all neighbouring households... from way before Covid ever existed.





Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2020 at 6:02pm
Steps the 5G you are taking about is 5 gigahertz wifi. This nothing to do with the 5G cellular technology the intellectually challenged are talking about. 5G is a whole bunch of frequency ranges but the mm wave stuff is in the high 20s GHz range.


Posted By: Dr.Um
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2020 at 9:54pm
Sorry for ranting on.....I was suggesting it was more likely people illegally gaining passage on ships and circumventing security that may have led to the recent outbreak.


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2020 at 11:13am
Originally posted by Dr.Um Dr.Um wrote:

Sorry for ranting on.....I was suggesting it was more likely people illegally gaining passage on ships and circumventing security that may have led to the recent outbreak.

Yup. 
The ports were a gaping hole in our defenses pre the recent clamp down on the supposed testing at airports which in fact was not happening.
Pre that, there was no requirement at all for the ports.
Go figure.


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Legasea Legend Member



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