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Is heave and leave the only option ?

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Category: Freshwater Fishing
Forum Name: Freshwater Fission
Forum Description: The place to discuss all matters related to freshwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133754
Printed Date: 29 Sep 2020 at 12:19am


Topic: Is heave and leave the only option ?
Posted By: Fenwick1
Subject: Is heave and leave the only option ?
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2020 at 7:15pm
Hi ,advice time for a frustrated fisho.
Am chasing spawning trout along the lake edges here in Rotovegas.
Not having any luck with the fly rod .
Am fishing in shallow water to sighted fish but they are not interested in traditional and bright flouro colored streamers.
Am using a floating line as theirs a few ugly sunken snags and the  water is only about 1/2 to 1.5m deep.
I know the heave and leave boys are out in force at present but not sure this method would work in my preferred spot ??
So any bright ideas .....



Replies:
Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2020 at 8:24pm
What about a very small unweighted egg fly cast out and dropping slowly into their path? 
Some of the realistic egg patterns have a little bit of weight from the resin plus hook and would sink deep enough.
They would be less alarming to wary fish than big bright streamers, I would have thought.
Or maybe try a small nymph with a bit of movement - say a wee wet with soft hackle, or a damsel style pattern with marabou tail. Something with a very small orange or pink hot spot might trigger a bite?

The Americans like using egg sucking leech flies - basically a big drab streamer with what looks like an egg in their mouth. so if you tie your own flies, a Woolly Bugger/bully fly with an orange blob at the front might be worth a go. 

Obviously going back at night with a typical glowing night fly would be the other option. But if you're focused on trying to solve the daytime dilemma, that's not the answer you're looking for.


Posted By: Fenwick1
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2020 at 8:51pm
Thanks , will give it ago as got to nail 1 or 3 before the area closes .


Posted By: Micsam
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 4:57pm
Fish at night mate, less moon the better. Don’t waste your time with cruising day fish they are often dark anyway.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 9:16pm
True right     Night brings in the good fish.      Before the globug H/L was invented anglers had good success fishing floating lines with a big black rabbit are marabou fly and a small lumo pattern on a 50cm dropper truck and trailer fashion on a slow retrieve just under the surface.    
Rainbow 


Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 7:47am
Stand corrected but hasn't the Rotorua stream/river mouth fishing
closed as from last Wednsday until Oct 1 st  2020 ?


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I am finding as I get older my memory is deteriorating ... today I am unsure if I have found a rope or lost a horse !   


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 9:16am
Originally posted by bazza bazza wrote:

Stand corrected but hasn't the Rotorua stream/river mouth fishing
closed as from last Wednsday until Oct 1 st  2020 ?

Consider yourself corrected, Bazza Tongue Check the Eastern Region regulations which are available online - there are several places including Rotoiti, Okataina, Tarawera and Rotoma where some shoreline places (essentially the release points) stay open all year round. The exceptions are specifically listed in the schedules.

https://fishandgame.org.nz/assets/Uploads/FG-Fishing-Regs-NI-19-20-FINAL.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://fishandgame.org.nz/assets/Uploads/FG-Fishing-Regs-NI-19-20-FINAL.pdf


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 12:03pm
There are some stream mouths in the Rotorua area where spinning is allowed, I think.  Have Google earthed named areas for fly fishing only and have seen some stream mouths not mentioned??

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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Fishb8 Fishb8 wrote:

There are some stream mouths in the Rotorua area where spinning is allowed, I think.  Have Google earthed named areas for fly fishing only and have seen some stream mouths not mentioned??

The regulations I linked above are pretty clear - with the letters for the methods fly, spin or bait ( F S or B) next to specific sites. Some of the stream areas at Rotoiti, for example, are clearly listed as F only within 200m. Ditto Tarawera. 
Pays to study the regs schedule carefully.


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 7:48pm
If a current proposal is adopted for the 2020/21 season the fly only winter areas on Tarawera and Rotoiti will be opened to spinning. Anything to get more licence sales so expect to have spinners clashing with fly anglers if adopted. Thanks F and G Eastern.


Posted By: Downtown
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 8:54pm
Yeah fly fishers are a tough bunch to deal with


Posted By: Mossy
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 6:25am
Originally posted by O'Neill O'Neill wrote:

If a current proposal is adopted for the 2020/21 season the fly only winter areas on Tarawera and Rotoiti will be opened to spinning. Anything to get more licence sales so expect to have spinners clashing with fly anglers if adopted. Thanks F and G Eastern.

Apart from any territorial pissings, why would there be any clash between fly fishers and spinners? Surely the easing of fly-only winter areas isn't going to lead to hoards of  spinners descending on the shorelines? Spinning's a great intro to the sport, and fly flinging can seem daunting to some. So I see these changes as a positive for the sport in general, but I am curious to know what the arguments against allowing spinning in these zones are.  


Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 9:20am
I am only guessing the ratio of spin or fly water but would imagine it is somewhere in the range of 9 to 1 in favour of spinning so on that basis surely spin fishers cannot justify opening even more.
 
As well as that most FF water is open to Czech fishing which in effect
hardly qualifies as FF when the only time the flyline leaves the end of the rod is when a fish is hooked. As FF is defined as the line function is to carry the fly out whereas with spinning the weight of the lure carries the line out ... with Czech style fitting into the latter.
 
Probably will happen to this post as well but every time this subject arises there is a wave of response from self righteous individuals claiming that spin fishing etc are valid methods & an ideal way to introducing newbies to the sport ... absolutely no argument with that but simply that surely fly fishers have the right to expect the small percentage of FF only water that now exists should not be compromised.
 
Water in NZ exists that are open to all methods including bait on set rods ... what would be the reaction from spin fishers if more of their waters were open to all methods ??     


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I am finding as I get older my memory is deteriorating ... today I am unsure if I have found a rope or lost a horse !   


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 9:33am
The arguement that fly casting is difficult does not carry weight if you can hammer a nail into a wall you can fly cast, simple.There are very few FF only areas at current, what will happen should this happen? FF only at night or a bunch of spinning chuckers decend on a small peaceful stream mouth? Oh yay!
 


Posted By: Downtown
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 9:34am
I could be wrong but I’ve never seen spin fishing only water.


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 9:52am
I guess the history of it was fly fishing being seen by our founding fathers as a higher form of fishing - versus the heathen spinners.

However, the behaviour of many "fly fishers" at places such as Ruato have been well canvassed and debated on this forum (those who camp in the carpark and essentially reserve the best couple of spots with deck chairs all day).  To me, the armchair heave and leave folk have removed any arguments fly fishers had to the moral high ground at the Rotorua region hot spots.

From a practical point of view, "spinning" in the Rotorua areas often means casting a sinker with a floating egg or Woolly Bugger style fly - and leaving it out there. Not actually casting and retrieving spoons, Tobies etc. It's common at Tarawera jetties, Okataina main beach and other places. 

So I imagine the regulation change could see a row of set lines across the best stream mouth zones.
Where fly fishers in a river mouth casting and retrieving together find their own rhythm and don't tangle as often as you'd think, tangles with set lines would be inevitable.



Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Downtown Downtown wrote:

I could be wrong but I’ve never seen spin fishing only water.
 
Who mentioned spin fishing only ??????
 
I am also not aware of any water where it applies & why should it ?
 
Whilst on the subject ... no doubt there are more particularly in the Sth. Is. but as far as "ff only" rivers & streams are concerned the only ones I am aware of are those in the Taupo region & the Ruakituri ... may well be a number of river mouths that are spin permitted.


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I am finding as I get older my memory is deteriorating ... today I am unsure if I have found a rope or lost a horse !   


Posted By: Downtown
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 11:31am
Originally posted by bazza bazza wrote:


I am only guessing the ratio of spin or fly water but would imagine it is somewhere in the range of 9 to 1 in favour of spinning so on that basis surely spin fishers cannot justify opening even more.


FF seems to be legal everywhere and spinning is not. Just because you chose to handicap yourself with a certain method doesn’t mean you should be the only ones to access certain areas.


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 12:30pm
So why not just learn to flyfish? Imagine the opportunities and fun that will come from learning a life long skill and all that comes with it.


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 12:38pm
I both spin and fly fish amongst other methods such as jigging. 

There is plenty of water open year round in Rotorua that can accommodate spin anglers. Having a lineup of spin anglers biffing weighted glo bugs 40 / 50m off shore at the key spawning points will do nothing to the fishery and in my opinion is unlikely to help boost license sales. 

While the technique is no less admirable than heaving and leaving flies, the extra distance you can cover with the cast and the added stealth of fishing a fully mono line in my opinion will lead to a much higher catch of spawning fish which I can't see how can be a good thing. 

To be honest, if they changed the regs, I think you would find over time much like trollers who converted to jigging you will see the same faces at the same spots, they will just be casting spinning rigs instead of fly fishing and doubling their catch rate... 


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 12:42pm
So the question has to be asked is Fish and Game acting in the best interests of a key licence holder in the area, fly anglers?  And who in the Eastern region suggested such a change? Why not take away spin fishing from some areas such as a key spawning stream and encourage FF instead of creating conflict on the water?


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 12:52pm
I think that's the point, why?

Has a body of anglers requested that they can go cast a spinner at Ruato Bay in Winter?

And surely if you are allowing spinning then you also have to allow boat fishing within 200m of stream mouths for the jigging anglers? 

It feels more to me that this is an idea that someone believes may encourage more people to fish and buy licenses, but to me its change for the sake of change.

Boat and lure fisherman of which I am one for 9 months of the year get ample opportunity to target fish that fly fisherman can't for the majority of the year, it doesn't seem much to ask that across maybe 10 locations during winter across Rotoiti, Okataina, and Tarawera that fly fisherman are given a fair crack to do the same. 

If all fishing in Rotorua region was closed to all except fly fisherman in the off-season then that would be a different story and probably need to be addressed, but it's not. 

It's probably worth pointing out also that during the peak times of rain etc over winter it's already hard enough to get a reasonable spot, the locations being referred to usually only fish productively to a handful of rods at most targeting the best lies. 


Posted By: Redfinger
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 1:16pm
My apologies if this offends some on here but sort of related- why have a closed season at all in  fishery that is largely a take fishery and managed with releases each year ? I mean Lakes Rotoiti , tarawera, Okataina etc . Apart from very obvious spawning areas such as spawning streams and maybe a few release sites that should remain closed in winter) why shouldnt the rest of the lake remain open?   Taupo for instance allows lake fishing in winter , spawning streams get a hiding from anglers yet there are still too many fish in  the system (for available food source)  The Rotorua lakes can be managed accordingly - up till now this management seems to be working well?



Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 1:56pm
So who has come up with the idea? Why should fly anglers loose their fishing opportunities limited as they are so others can disturb their fishing?I would expect the spin anglers will come from boat anglers who already hold a licence so any increase in sales will be minimal at best while creating discontent among fly anglers.


Posted By: Mossy
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by O'Neill O'Neill wrote:

So who has come up with the idea? Why should fly anglers loose their fishing opportunities limited as they are so others can disturb their fishing?I would expect the spin anglers will come from boat anglers who already hold a licence so any increase in sales will be minimal at best while creating discontent among fly anglers.

According to the F&G release, the rule was a 'follow on from a relaxing of regulations that occurred in 2012/2013 to promote a less exclusive fishing environment.'

I don't see any mention of fly fishers having opportunities taken from them, and I'm sorry to say that most of the arguments against allowing spinners to share these waters seem somewhat elitist.

I agree however that it would be a shame to see people using surfcasting-style methods on the shoreline areas, however flyfishos already do that as well.


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 9:50am
I've just got an email back from F and G Eastern. I'll hopefully be getting a response from Matt Osbourne once he is back in the office next week.


Posted By: Micsam
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 1:56pm
Spinning at most of the release/spawning sites is just a drag anyway. Because it’s generally so shallow (pipe maybe excluded) it means your casting every few seconds after having to wind in to stay off bottom. If one goes so light on the jig head/spinner to compensate then casting distance and feel to the lure greatly suffer. Also zero confidence spinning/soft baiting at night compared to fly fishing, so don’t stress it guys.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 5:58pm
RC 17 is quite right if spinning gear were allowed most meat hunters would turn up with distance casting gear and heave boobies or globugs far beyond a fly fisher can cast.
 
I have covered most release points at Rotoiti and the majority are shallow and full of weed which would make true spinning a joke.   
 
Rainbow


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 6:19pm
Unfortunately they will probably adopt a bubble float fly approach for use at night, a small lead and heave and leave during the day and some stream mouths do have good drop offs,(but close on the 30th June) be interesting to see to what extent this if it is adopted what and where will be allowed? Will the current restrictions remain and only apply to the areas open after 1st July from the shore? 


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by Mossy Mossy wrote:

Originally posted by O'Neill O'Neill wrote:

So who has come up with the idea? Why should fly anglers loose their fishing opportunities limited as they are so others can disturb their fishing?I would expect the spin anglers will come from boat anglers who already hold a licence so any increase in sales will be minimal at best while creating discontent among fly anglers.

According to the F&G release, the rule was a 'follow on from a relaxing of regulations that occurred in 2012/2013 to promote a less exclusive fishing environment.'



 
One of the great things about fly fishing in NZ is that there are areas with quality trout that anyone from any background can have a go - unlike the country my ancestors came from. 

I taught myself to fly fish using very basic cheap gear that I bought with my own money earned from holiday jobs, and the whole time i've fished at Taupo etc I've fished beside people from all walks of life - including many locals who've mentioned they were beneficiaries or had very seasonal income. Some pretty rough diamonds.

So to me, the fly fishing experience since the mid 1980s has been the opposite of "elitist". There is come of that creeping in, with access issues to some prime high country rivers, but not in the areas we are talking about.
you can still put a kit together for a fairly small spend. In many of the top spots you can fish very effectively in gumboots. And the licence cost is minimal. 

Are those advocating for spin to be allowed because it's unfair to only allow fly also happy to see bait fishing there as well - maybe with roe in a little mesh bag like in Northern California? Because that 'let's be inclusive' argument would logically extend to bait methods too.


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 9:38pm
maybe with roe in a little mesh bag like in Northern California?

Ever been to Waipapa dam? you'll see all sorts of tackle and baits and some really friendly guys. Doesn't pay to be too precious at times.


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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 11:11pm
I fished the Waipapa Tailrace quite a bit when I lived in Hamilton, if that's the water you're referring to. i never fished Waipapa Dam, though.
I always used spin gear (small ball sinker with a trace to the smelt fly) and I've mentioned the tailrace on the forum as a great spot for keen fishos in the Waikato to tangle with big trout using that method. if they want to fish baits and they are legal, go for it.

Met plenty of locals in those days, happily fishing side by side with them.

I'm not at all precious about methods in particular situations and areas. For one thing, it'd be nearly impossible to fish the tailrace area using fly gear. 

And no worries from me about people using spin gear heave and leave in some areas of the Rotorua lakes. I've done it myself off the main jetty at Okataina and a jetty at Tarawera - with Booby flies, not eggs.
But, as per the reasons i gave in my post re the two methods being incompatible without tangles in a stream mouth, I think it's fair enough to have limited fly only areas.

As with most regulations across society, it's all about where you reasonably draw the line - and in the case of stream mouths, the line in the sand for me is a fly line.



Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2020 at 7:16am
Yes, it is the dam at the end of Waipapa into Arapuni and have seen roe in mesh bags, skipjack tuna and all sorts.
Went there a couple of weeks ago and tried to get down to a spot between the spillway and the tailrace as I used to get some good trout there. However, it's all grown over and impossible to get to.
I also used to fish at the Mangwhio stream mouth, a good bush bash North of the tailrace and used to get some good fish there too. The guys at the tailrace told me a new track had been made so decided to try it.
I have a 4wd RAV4 and the track is good enough for a FWD. However, when I got there I saw the skin and guts of a very recently butchered sheep - no flies. It's only 50 metres from the stream mouth but it's so overgrown and the stream narrowed from 40 to 50 metres wide to less than 10. Not fishable at all! I wonder why so much trouble was taken to build a track to nowhere??
You can fish along the right bank as there is a bike trail that takes you past a couple of stream mouths.

A floating bibbed minnow could be used at the Rotorua stream mouths. Cast into stream and let the current take it out then wind, stop, wind stop or use a soft plastic with upwards hook to avoid snagging.
I still think that the stream mouths should stay fly-fishing.
A mate who is a real joker took a surfcasting rod and started using it at the T-T river mouth and got some anglers really wound up. He was only using a sinker with no lure or hook and technically not fishing at all and never needed a licence. Think he tried on a couple of river mouths and eventually a ranger had a word - no infringement notice just a safety warning and a chuckle.


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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2020 at 7:53am
If the discussion starts this week with Matt at Fand G that will be one of the questions, what about stream mouths that close prior to the 1st July (start of the winter season)and are currently FF only, specifically the ones at Tarawera and Rotoiti the two lakes where rules proposal could impact on.


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 9:13am
We have a bach at Otaramarae, and the depth is probably 1m deep for about 20m off the end of our jetty. I played around with a heave and leave method with the spinning rod and managed to pick up my one and only fish from the end of our jetty doing this. It's amazing how far you can cast a sinker / glo bug combo on a basic spinning set up, I was getting 50m out there without to much effort. Having seen the effectiveness of it I have no doubt it would work well at the likes of Ruato Bay during the day, with the ability to get out to the slightly deeper water where the fish retreat to outside of darkness. It is basically surfcasting though and I'm not sure that really fits in with the theme of shoreline winter fishing when you are halfway out to the 5 knot bouys haha. 


Posted By: Micsam
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 1:07pm
Just to make it clear that I’d rather analyse grass growth on my lawn than go hiff a sinker and glowbug out during the day, but if someone wants to do that good on them. What’s the concern that they catch fish? Rotorua lakes are put and take anyway.
Also it’s just pure speculation that fish just hold a bit deeper during the day and then come in at night. For all we know fish might come in from a couple kilometres away especially the silver ones!


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 3:55pm
I guess the beauty of heave and leaving off our jetty was that I could both "fish" and watch our lawn grow at the same time, win win!


Posted By: Redfinger
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 4:22pm
RC - Must be the ultimate hooking a fish off your own jetty.




Posted By: taurangatroutmaster
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 6:49pm
Any form of fishing is better than watching grass grow. Sure fly fishings better but scrapping a big rainbow on a light spin set with braid from 50m plus out in the lake sounds like a whole lot of fun to me.flyfishing only areas should stay that way though


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 8:06pm
Sure is, TTM. I had a go off a bach jetty at Tarawera and got some nice ones on Olive/Black Booby - cast well out into probably 15m of water.
As someone else said, not exactly riveting stuff, but a decent option when you don't have access to a boat and you're not impacting on anyone fishing at a stream mouth...

What I didn't like to see was people doing heave and leave and wandering off up to their bach leaving the rod unattended. I'm pretty sure that's against the regs, put and take fishery or not.


Posted By: taurangatroutmaster
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 8:59pm
I've used flys on behind ball sinkers with spin gear plenty of times on trout in big rivers and done well. Lake fishing heave and leave with a booby fly or floating glo bug would be no different than the same fly on a shooting head and short leader as far as presentation to the fish goes. Fly fishing is my favourite type of fishing for sure but using spin gear can be just as technical. I don't understand how anyone could enjoy flyfishing but turn their nose up at catching the same fish on spin gear


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2020 at 11:01am
Agreed about leaving rods unattended, the only time I left mine was for 1min to grab a beer from the fridge haha!


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2020 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by taurangatroutmaster taurangatroutmaster wrote:

I've used flys on behind ball sinkers with spin gear plenty of times on trout in big rivers and done well.r

As you probably know, also deadly on kahawai - why more people don't do it in the salt is a mystery to me.  Much better than towing a Smith Jig past a boil up, for example.


Posted By: taurangatroutmaster
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2020 at 11:07pm
Yeah I cast silicon smelt, grey rabbits etc behind small ball sinkers in the surf for kahawai. Awesome fun when u get the big west coast kahawai they feel like small kingys


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 6:32pm
Got a response from F and G today;
"In short, yes from 1 October 2020 spin fishing will be permitted on Lake Rotoiti and Tarawera at all lake shoreline locations.  Council have chosen to implement this (at their June 18 meeting) in the interests of simplifying the rules and creating greater participation in the sport of freshwater sports fishing. The decision was unanimous.

A number of winter shoreline angling locations were (as you no doubt are aware) made inclusive of spin fishing in previous Anglers Notice reviews. These included, The Orchard, Otumutu Streams, Waitangi Stream at Lake Tarawera and Hauparu Bay and Waiiti Stream mouth at Lake Rotoiti and in our summer fishery Awahou Stream mouth and the area within 200m lakes side of the Ohau Channel in Lake Rotorua.
We as staff have received very few complaints or heard of issues arising from the switch".
Well lets hope spin anglers respect FF.


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 9:48pm
I'm sure it won't be as disruptive as you might think.
Can't see a big increase in licence sales to spin fishers.


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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 10:44am
Does anyone have a F&G definition of spin fishing? Be interested to know, as I can't see any reason now why you couldn't anchor up at the log pool and drop a jigging rig over the side on a spinning rod?


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 1:03pm
Nothing obvious. All their promotional material shows it as casting and retrieving a lure. Will lures such as Rapalas with double trebles be/are allowed?
What about the releasing of Jacks at one Tarawera location with trebles stuck in them from a "newbie" or is that rule also gone?
Simplifying the rules?  


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 1:20pm
To me once you are allowing fly fishing and spinning from all locations, and assuming spinning covers retrieved lures, artificial flies behind ball sinkers, and glo bug heave and leave type rigs, then it's virtually pointless not allowing other forms of boat fishing in the same locations e.g. harled lures, jigging etc. 


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 2:45pm
So new rules needed to "simplify" the situation? Currently markers at locations show a 200m distance is needed by boats.


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 3:35pm
I just think there are still alot of rules around what is and isnt fly fishing, so if you are going to loosen up the methods at what were fly fishing only points and effectively have no exclusive fly fishing zones then you may as well do away with any rules around what defines fly fishing and change to "whatever you can lob out there with a fly rod"


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 3:37pm
For example on rotorua lakes why not do away with it all and have a year round season, all methods excluding bait as long as it is from a rod and reel, no more than 3 flies or lures, no treble hooks. Would save money printing the rule books too


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by O'Neill O'Neill wrote:

Nothing obvious. All their promotional material shows it as casting and retrieving a lure. Will lures such as Rapalas with double trebles be/are allowed?
What about the releasing of Jacks at one Tarawera location with trebles stuck in them from a "newbie" or is that rule also gone?
Simplifying the rules?  

I can't see any rule in either the main section of current regs or the Eastern Region schedule about no treble hooks on "spinners".

You do raise an interesting point re what defines spinning. At the moment, the regs state:

“spin fishing” means to fish for sports fish with a spinner. “spinner” means any artificial lure other than an artificial fly

So does that mean you can't fish sinker and fly (floating with foam, or non floating) legally in spin areas around Rotorua?

There are rules which limit the number of lures (only up to 3 at a time); no scented softbaits.

The most recent version of the Eastern schedule still only allowed hens to be taken at the Te Wairoa mouth.


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 6:27pm
Perhaps F and G need to already clarify the rules for what they want to introduce? To increase licence sales.


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 7:28pm
Surely they need to encourage inclusiveness by opening up the final frontier - live baiting using smelt LOL


Posted By: RC17
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 8:10pm
All I know is I've consistently watched the person who can cast the longest shooting head have the most success at the pipe, so I know what I'll be lobbing my glo bug out with next winter and it wont be a fly rod. Also wont need to be closest to the pipe if they are fly fishers cause I'll be able to lob a sinker out just beyond and behind them haha


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 8:21pm
As they say, if you can't beat 'em...beat 'em.

Mind you, I can't see those blokes who camp in front of the main spots sticking to fly fishing if they can use a spin rod.

And what about the poor old Kontiki fishos. About time F&G stopped discriminating against them. Watch this space.


Posted By: Fish Addict
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by The Tamure Kid The Tamure Kid wrote:

As they say, if you can't beat 'em...beat 'em.

Mind you, I can't see those blokes who camp in front of the main spots sticking to fly fishing if they can use a spin rod.

And what about the poor old Kontiki fishos. About time F&G stopped discriminating against them. Watch this space.

And don't forget about the Reti board guys. They would go well in the streams and rivers. Smile


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 12:17pm
Considering that not that many people love eating trout I really can not see the sense in catching lots of them with dumbed  down gear.   However aiming for the lowest common denominator ensures that no one's rights are excluded even if this egalitarianism ultimately destroys the sport.      
Rainbow 


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 3:13pm
So Fish and Game need to define in the rules what is spinning? Is this really simplifying the rules, I doubt it!


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Considering that not that many people love eating trout I really can not see the sense in catching lots of them with dumbed  down gear.   However aiming for the lowest common denominator ensures that no one's rights are excluded even if this egalitarianism ultimately destroys the sport.      
Rainbow 

Exactly, Herb. Like me, you'll have many times seen local kids fishing in places such as the Bridge Pools of both the Tongariro and Waitahanui, roll casting in gumboots and using crappy old gear with guides held on using electrical tape etc. They catch plenty. The point is that anyone who wants to can fly fish.

I'd be interested to see survey data or submissions showing that people were being excluded by fly only.

It just seems like rule changes for the sake of it.

But that's modern NZ.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 8:35pm
Fly fishing is a skill based sport and people get a great deal of satisfaction out of mastering it.    Its like climbing a mountain the higher you get they more you gain in self esteem.   Golf is the same, the ladder to climb is called a handicap.    There is no social or financial barrier to fly fishing in NZ so why is it still the most preferred method to catch trout (without fishing from a boat)???  
Answer: it is the most challenging and satisfying.    
 
Cheers
 
Rainbow
 
PS I am almost inclined to say that the people who run down fly fishing are to a large extent the ones who can't do it.    I wont because I might be called a Fly Fishing Snob, Elitist or Fly Fishing Supremacist or worse run the risk of being thrown in the river by the Me Too Brotherhood of the Spinners.


Posted By: Uncle
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 9:09pm
It's a bit of a buggar being an old coot ( mid 70's) but one redeeming feature is being able to look back on the years of " protected" fly fishing.
For the life of me, I can't fathom why the stream mouths have been opened up to open slather.
Just bloody dumb, imho   


Posted By: Downtown
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 9:10pm
Can’t say I’ve heard many spinners running down fly fishos but plenty the other way around. It seems to be fly guys that have the problem with spinners. The reasons that I’ve read above seem to be anyone can fly fish blah blah we are not elitist but you should do it our way it’s the proper way blahblah Spinning makes it too easy blah blah. Some people don’t want to fly fish and enjoy spinning simple as that no need to look down on them. Don’t be dicks about it.


Posted By: Uncle
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 9:22pm
I'm not "running down" spin fishersDT.
My disappointment is aimed at the rule makers, blahblah..


Posted By: Downtown
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 9:32pm
My post wasn’t directed at you at all I’m pretty sure we typed them at the same time. I’m not saying the areas should be open to all either. just not a fan of the looking down on others that goes on and the reasons given.


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 9:36pm
Dig out your surfcaster, Uncle!😊


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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: Uncle
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Fishb8 Fishb8 wrote:

Dig out your surfcaster, Uncle!😊

Might just do that RoyLOL
One way of looking at it, no need for expensive waders anymore.



Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 11:33pm
Manic might as well import Carp rods instead of Simms waders, set up heave and leaves like carp pop up rigs, well done F and G totally clueless changes to try and get more licence sales!
Seriously though I have all the gear to make this happen, rods, bite alarms, rod rests and I simply have to have a hand on the fishing rod to be legal, put it 50 m out the back of the pipe with a small lead clipped on to get the mainline on the deck sorted, see what F and G say when they see this!LOL
 


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2020 at 12:14am
Get real      This isn't about "spinning" it is about using spinning reels and mono or braid to cast globugs out at stream mouths far further than any shooting head.    If someone would throw a spinner here, there and everywhere in such a confined space he would tangle all the setlines up in no time and would just as quickly go for an involuntary  cold swim.     Clearly F&G has not fully understood where and how this will end up.
 
Cheers
 
Rainbow
 
PS My dig isn't about spinning it is about the incompatibility of fly fishing and spinning in such a confined space as a river mouth.     Imagine what would happen if this occurred at the gates at the Ohau Channel.
 
 


Posted By: O'Neill
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2020 at 8:16am
Exactly Rainbow, spinners will catch flylines, first time there is conflict I will ring F and G and complain about this stupid rule change.


Posted By: taurangatroutmaster
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2020 at 8:58am
I'm a flyfisher but aslong as everyone has ettiquite I don't care what method they use, even bait fishing is fine by me. Can't see the river mouthes getting over run with spin fishers. Fishing river mouthes is the most boring form of trout fishing anyway. Get up the rivers it's way more fun. Opening up easy access to spin fishers isn't an issue imo. Just like any other piece of trout water the first person to get there and the person fishing the best lie will have the advantage wether they use spin or fly gear is a personal choice. The people who fly fish shouldn't expect people to do the same just because it's the way they do it


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2020 at 10:44am
During the Big Fish years I spent countless nights freezing my balls off for one fish or two if I was lucky and that was before down riggers and jigging.    Nowadays it is even less productive so my sympathies go to the hopeful souls trying to pick up a few scraps.
 
Since I have started jigging using a good fish finder I have got a much better overview of where fish are and mostly where they are not.     They definitely don't hang around river mouths or close to shore at least at Rotoiti.     A few come within casting range at night mostly when the pipes are running.      On my last trip I watched a few hopefuls in deck chairs at Ruato getting nothing but a suntan while a good pod of fish was sitting tight in 25m a few hundred meters out in the lake.      Coming in and out several times during three days of fishing in that area I never saw a single fish closer in than that. 
 
At the pipe at Hinehopu I have seen them on the dropoff (if they are there at all) but again most are miles outside casting range.      If the scrapping shore anglers only knew about their miserable chances  most would not bother and stay home by the fire.    The smart ones would get a kayak or a dinghy and never look back. 
 
Fish and Game is dreaming it they think shore angling will grow if they ease the rules.   
 
Rainbow


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2020 at 12:54pm
[QUOTE=taurangatroutmaster]Just like any other piece of trout water the first person to get there and the person fishing the best lie will have the advantage wether they use spin or fly gear is a personal choice. /QUOTE]
Many years back in the 1980s after a walk and difficult crossing in the dark at the Cliff pool on the TT we sat down for a coffee and saw in my bag was a 5 piece spinning rod with reel and a red Veltic and red tail fly. Out of devilment I had a cast and got a nice rainbow, first cast. Mate repeated exactly the same - 2 casts, 2 fish (C&R, of course). Always told me that spinning could be VERY effective.

A friend flew a drone over the Waimarino river mouth and you could see a decent shoal circling from 100 m out to back to casting distance and the general concensus was the fish are biting but that only occurred as the shoal got in close. Not sure if Rotorua stream mouths have the same shoals circling?


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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken



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