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Chaos at the ramp

Printed From: The Fishing Website
Category: Saltwater Fishing
Forum Name: The Captain Morgan Briny Bar
Forum Description: The place for general chat on saltwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=132692
Printed Date: 11 Jul 2020 at 6:01pm


Topic: Chaos at the ramp
Posted By: Kevin.S
Subject: Chaos at the ramp
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 11:52am
But probably not the usual sort of ramp chaos that you might think.  As we arrived back from a fishing trip on Saturday (terrible days fishing -not even a single bite) a woman shouted to us from the pontoons asking if we could help her husband who had broken down.  He was only 500m or so from the ramp so we set off to tow him back.  We soon found the broken down boat, along with a couple of kids floating out the back on a biscuit.  We hooked up a tow rope and took him back to the ramp, which was a little tricky as there was quite a current running across the ramp on the outgoing tide.  Fortunately there was a guy who had just launched his boat and he grabbed our painter and pulled us to the pontoons and then I untied the boat we were towing and passed him that rope and he pulled them in.  He then set off for a fishing trip, but he didn't get 10m from the pontoons before his steering cable broke leaving him traveling in circles next to the ramp.  With his wife sitting on the transom astride the outboard to "steer" it he managed to reverse close enough for us to reach out from the pontoons and grab them and pull them back in.  After all that just getting back to the ramp in a fully functioning boat seemed quite a result compared to the others around us, even if the fishing had been terrible.



Replies:
Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 12:26pm
It is amazing the number of near disasters that we don't get to read about. Must be multiples daily over summer. Imagine having an engine or steering failure crossing a bar. Just both happened by a presumably busy boat ramp. Pure luck.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Mr Moritz
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 1:12pm
Remember out sailing in my Cherub class yacht. Came across a guy in a Z class yacht.
His mast had got jammed against the wing of a moored sunderland aircraft. He was in a bit of a predicament as his mast was between the two engines on the wing and held there by wind and tide. He couldn't move.
I brought my Cherub in as close as I dared, he threw me a rope, which I cleated up.
I hauled the mainsail in and sailed as close to the wind as I could and managed to extract him off the plane. Quite exciting at the time. 


Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 1:29pm
Lucky you were there Kevin. Nothing is co-incidence.

Been alot of talk about steering cable failures of late.

So how do you know if this is about to happen to you.

Are there warning signs,things to watch out for.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 1:50pm
Thats the thing with steering - when you ain't got any, you wish you had some.
I have had 2 - on different boats - but same system - identical boats. One - there was a warning. The steering was getting heavy. Obviously the cable was getting stiff. My priority in the next 2-3 days - as soon as my fishing buddies departed back to NZ, was to pull the steering out. It didnt last that long - blew a segment out of the gearbox.
The 2nd one was the scary one. No warning. Sudden failure - cable separated from the steering rod - internally.  No way to anticipate or detect that. Now I have a plan B.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 1:56pm
Thanks allan. suspect it is the sort of thing not given much thought by many ,until it happens


Posted By: tjm
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 2:09pm
Talking about issues at boat ramps lately Ive been seeing that some boaties are not preparing for launching or retrieving their boats properly This isnt an issue if the ramp isn't busy but in summer when others are waiting you need to be organised In the weekend I watched one person back his trailer down to water muck around for ten or so minutes while others had to wait for him to organise him self I might be wrong but surely aim to get in and out as quickly as possible to ket others do the same

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Cant beat hunting and Fishing in N.Z


Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Kevin.S Kevin.S wrote:

But probably not the usual sort of ramp chaos that you might think.  As we arrived back from a fishing trip on Saturday (terrible days fishing -not even a single bite) a woman shouted to us from the pontoons asking if we could help her husband who had broken down.  He was only 500m or so from the ramp so we set off to tow him back.  We soon found the broken down boat, along with a couple of kids floating out the back on a biscuit.  We hooked up a tow rope and took him back to the ramp, which was a little tricky as there was quite a current running across the ramp on the outgoing tide.  Fortunately there was a guy who had just launched his boat and he grabbed our painter and pulled us to the pontoons and then I untied the boat we were towing and passed him that rope and he pulled them in.  He then set off for a fishing trip, but he didn't get 10m from the pontoons before his steering cable broke leaving him traveling in circles next to the ramp.  With his wife sitting on the transom astride the outboard to "steer" it he managed to reverse close enough for us to reach out from the pontoons and grab them and pull them back in.  After all that just getting back to the ramp in a fully functioning boat seemed quite a result compared to the others around us, even if the fishing had been terrible.
good on you for helping others trouble Clap!


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Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.


Posted By: Big -Dave
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 8:08am
I've tired a few back to the ramp who have pushed off then gone to start and no one was home.
Steering, easy to feel smug when you have hydraulics, but I had the stainless arm from the team to the motor fracture on the bend. Fortunately it had snapped on the way to the beach, I hadn't noticed but once in the water, going round in circles was the game of the day...

Crap happens, being polite and helpful even if you think they are buffoons, goes a long way.

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you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...


Posted By: Wanda_Ra
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 5:50pm
I always start the outboard up at home n run it for a min jsut to check.Dont need water for that short a time.
Also a few years back had the steering cable break on my 30hp on the tinny on the way out to the mussel farms off Coro.Just had the 9 yr old sit up the front working the throttle as needed and i was at the back steering.
Still went out and had a fish as it wasnt really a drama.

Something is going to go wrong sooner or later,you just have to hope you can deal with it safely.

Ive helped a few out on the water and been helped myself once or twice over the years.


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If you think you are too small to make a difference,try sleeping with a mosquito in your tent.


Posted By: Fish Addict
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Wanda_Ra Wanda_Ra wrote:

I always start the outboard up at home n run it for a min jsut to check.Dont need water for that short a time.


Interesting I always thought even a few seconds without water was a no, no.
I googled the topic and it seems as always there are mixed views and opinions. A minute is more than most would recommend.
Each to their own, I'm not mechanically minded and so I will take the advice of my outboard mechanic which is never, never ever.


Posted By: MATTOO
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 6:27pm
KevinS,

You did the right thing.



I for one support your response.

You don't need a pat on the back for doing what you did.

I'm just doing it because where I come from that's a given.

Lost art now sadly.

M

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Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 7:15pm
I often kick the motor over without water, pre-launch. Just to make sure no dramas in the surf. But only 5-10 secs - run it a few seconds and shut down. Apart from the heat issue for the motor, the impellor is running dry.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Clutch
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:30pm
I'm with Fish Addict. Better safe than sorry. I only ever run the motor with water.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:03am
I rinse in the drum
 The morning of or the day before a trip I fire up on muffs.
 Check, battery (which has been on a solar trickle charger since previous trip
Steering (got caught out in the 70s with salt jammed steering) Lights, jackets, bilge and clean down/ live bait, spare battery charge.
 Trailer tyres, tiedowns etc
 And put the bung in (that hangs on a braid string from the motor)
 Set up the painter for launching.
Have enough sinkers, lures etc.
Then turn the motor off.

We use the boat on every window we can, subject to crew availability and family events etc.

It seems this is not the norm, even for thu regular use, and in my books should be mandatory if used occasionally right ??

Fire up without water, the impeller runs dry.. if had sat for a while, or and/not rinsed well, the rubbers impeller are likely to stick a little and 'wear' (rip the tips)
 Hence why well fitting muffs with good  water pressure or better still a 1/2 45gal plastic drum comes into its own.



Posted By: Mr Moritz
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:31am
Yeah I wouldn't run mine up without water, although I think there are some impellers sold that they say can be run dry. The tips of the impeller rub against the edge of pump housing and without water lubrication generate enough heat to melt the impeller tips. Ergo weak water flow, bad news...


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:11am
Which is why I run it 5-10 secs, no more than. Prob less than 5 secs.  Just enough to know it is going to fire straight away. Bouncing around in the surf trying to get the motor to kick isn't much fun. Needs to go straight off. There have been times had to haul it out again on to trailer - maybe flooded or wet plugs, maybe bad contact somewhere - went perfect last time, this time...click. etc. Not like a boat ramp. Easier said than done - especially when the tractor has disappeared down the beach with someone elses boat etc. To me, it is worth kicking it over before dropping it off the trailer.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 3:33pm
Fair comment Alan.  Running the motor at all without water will increase impeller wear, but replacing an impeller more often is a small price to pay for the reassurance you are getting in those circumstances.  

An even bigger problem than wear on the impeller is the heat that builds up very quickly without any cooling water in there.  I once changed an impeller and had to change the whole housing as it had been partly melted, which I'm pretty sure was from someone running it dry.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 4:03pm
I have replaced impellors on both my motors - simply as precautionary maintenance. After 5-600 hrs, they still look like new. Have kept as spares. The dry running I have done, has had no effect on the impellors. But without a doubt you could build up heat in them quite quickly while dry running. Which I why I only do it for a few secs. Simply enough to know the motor is going to fire with one turn of the key. 
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Catchelot
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 5:28pm
I once knew a fella that had a big rig and twin 115 Envinrudes, his batch was about 5 mins to the launch, he used to start and warm up his motors before launching... we used to cringe as we watched him go past.Cry

And I guess the impellors are a bit of a sacrifical part as most services see them replaced for piece of mind even if they look fine...


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"The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever." - Jacques Cousteau


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 5:50pm
He drove 5 mins to the ramp with the motors running??
I guess the next owner never knew that.
If he was trying to warm them he should have done that on the muffs and THEN driven 5 min to the ramp. Surely. Never occurred to him I guess.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Which is why I run it 5-10 secs, no more than. Prob less than 5 secs.  Just enough to know it is going to fire straight away. Bouncing around in the surf trying to get the motor to kick isn't much fun. Needs to go straight off. There have been times had to haul it out again on to trailer - maybe flooded or wet plugs, maybe bad contact somewhere - went perfect last time, this time...click. etc. Not like a boat ramp. Easier said than done - especially when the tractor has disappeared down the beach with someone elses boat etc. To me, it is worth kicking it over before dropping it off the trailer.
Alan
when I went out with snappa Geoff at mokau he warms motor up at home in a drum then down road to beach in and go.

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Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 7:45pm
I'm not trying to warm the motor up. Just making sure it will fire when I drop it in the surf. 
Alan
Plenty of time to warm it up sitting in the sets waiting for a break.


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2020 at 8:27am
My 1st start after a week or even several weeks is.
Pump up bulb..not over pumped, too hard
Turn over for 2 to 3 seconds.. usually wants to fire.
Another couple pumps, fires straight up.

From then on it fires 1st time, instant start rest of the day.

So I see exactly Where Alan is coming from when launching in surf.
 


Posted By: Mr Moritz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2020 at 1:59pm
Hmmm! Impeller is driven off the drive shaft. 5 to 10 seconds at 1000 to 1200 revs per minute (idle). That is about 85 to 170 impeller revolutions...


Posted By: Big -Dave
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 8:38am
Must admit I've become blase about the motor now I have a 4 stroke. I've been know to occasionally crank it a second or two if the boat has sat a while, just to make sure the battery is ok.
Mates cranking battery dies at Christmas and it was a messy launching off the beach, but switch on the connecting isolator to the house battery he was off.


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you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...


Posted By: Jiggy Jig
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Mr Moritz Mr Moritz wrote:

Remember out sailing in my Cherub class yacht. Came across a guy in a Z class yacht.
His mast had got jammed against the wing of a moored sunderland aircraft. He was in a bit of a predicament as his mast was between the two engines on the wing and held there by wind and tide. He couldn't move.
I brought my Cherub in as close as I dared, he threw me a rope, which I cleated up.
I hauled the mainsail in and sailed as close to the wind as I could and managed to extract him off the plane. Quite exciting at the time. 

That wouldn't happen every day! Good work!!



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Posted By: Jiggy Jig
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Lucky you were there Kevin. Nothing is co-incidence.

Been alot of talk about steering cable failures of late.

So how do you know if this is about to happen to you.

Are there warning signs,things to watch out for.

I had a steering cable fail on me a while back, full tilt = great donut, almost lost the wife over the side. 
No obvious warning, everything felt 'normal'.
I had had my engine serviced religiously every year at a bespoke dealer.
They asked me how old the steering cable was, and when I said 5 years, they said I'd done well to get so long out of it.
Apparently engine service is just that, not steering gear as well.
I put it down to experience and probably should have known better - but tbh was fairly new to remote steering, more used to tiller steering.
I've got hydraulic steering now, but appreciate how people could easily be caught out with an unexpected steering cable failure.


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Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 3:56pm
What.!! 5 years from a steering cable and your doing well.
Thats a worry,because that is something boat builders or dealers or service agents dont tell you.
Wonder what else they dont tell clients,things that people should know but are not told.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 5:03pm
Expect the unexpected. Any time any where.
Spend enough time on the water and you will experience something new - just when you thought you had it all sorted :-)
But if that is correct - 5 yr expected life for a critical item, you would think there should be some timestamp on the system from installation - at least at a boat shop. Like changing a cam belt. You don't usually wait for them to break. DIY - up to you.
But it pays to have a plan B for that one.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

What.!! 5 years from a steering cable and your doing well.
Thats a worry,because that is something boat builders or dealers or service agents dont tell you.
Wonder what else they dont tell clients,things that people should know but are not told.
 
Sounds rather overly pessimistic ... nevertheless reckon given the number of years we have owned our boats John, it probably would be prudent to look hard at workshop inspection or renewal.  


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Anyone coughing at a group gathering must do so from far off so if they ignore that rule tell them FAR COUGH !


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 5:54pm
I'm pretty sure I have had more than 5 yrs from them. However ...... I have had 2 failures in the last 7-8 yrs (two boats). So maybe not so far from the mark. Bit like a cam belt I suspect. Rec change at 100k. So you get 140k and still going (changed one today - at 140k). So whats the plan - see if you can get to 160k? Damn , it failed at 150k.
One failure I had there was warning - steering getting stiff. 2nd one - no warning - working perfect and let go internally. So my thoughts are to make sure you have a plan B that you know will work. Or... replace it all at regular intervals.
Alan 


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 7:11pm
What.!! 5 years from a steering cable and your doing well.

Hmm rem way back .. posting about correct length , tight curves etc .. like anything , correct install, regular maintenance things last long long time.

As I said before , my cable on this boat was the original.. from late 70s/ early 80s period.. installed to correct length..even thu the shorter length gave a slighty better curve.
 Warning on that one was excessive play due to inner cable wear in the curve.. which I strongly suspect would not be picked up by the ave owner.. or many service ppl.

 My 1st failure was sticky getting stiff at very 1st turn of the helm...Salt build up in the engine end shaft... which I believe is part of a service. Fixing a sticky steering may just mean a little pressure on the helm then its all good for the rest of the season...you most would assume it is .. Doing this puts huge strain on the cable, inner cable and the helm worm drives, strain the system is not designed for.

 Maintenance prevents these things.
And if you read your manuals , yep the do talk about regular maintenance and maintenance before parking up for the winter .. which most dont do.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 7:47pm
Yes - a sticking cable puts massive strain on the gear. Try pulling the cable thru when it is sticking. You can't budge it. Try swinging the motor on an even free cable - feel the load. So a sticking cable puts massive load on the steering gear. If it is getting stiff - you have a problem that needs fixing.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2020 at 8:41am
Try swinging the motor on an even free cable - feel the load

I always quick check by swinging the motor full turn to turn .. by the motor...and its a 150 V6.
The check is made when fireing up the engine check before heading out.. along with lights, gauges batteries jackets etc.

 Feel the load.. what load?  turns so free and easy... my 7 yr old grandson can turn it nps.

It check from the helm..the nature of the worm drive 'leverage' one will never feel any tight spots starting.


Posted By: Clutch
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 11:14am
Just picked up this drum yesterday Steps. I'll cut the top and maybe put a small notch to raise and lower the leg. Did you cut a small notch?
On second thought maybe no notch.
[​IMG]


Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 11:43am
Ii was out with a guy fishing out of Kawhia on a very hot & humid day with a big lazy swell.
Shortly before crossing the bar on the port side steering cable the crimp to the steering boss shat itself.
I jury-rigged it using a marlin lure 400 lb leader. I had to lie on my back as I twisted the mono leader. Another guy came into the babin to help but he felt sea sick immediately.
Just as we started crossing the bar with some big swell (so I'm told) there was a huge rain storm and visibility was bad. I could feel the big swell and bumps and bangs but hung on for dear life.
We got in ok. The owner was doing a grey charter and was a decidedly dodgy character, as I found out later.


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Be yourself; everyone else is already taken


Posted By: bazza
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 12:14pm
Reading of experiencing steering cable failures has made me decide to have mine renewed.
 
Have owned the boat from new for approx. 10 yrs now & still has the original cable which in that time has not given any problems however nothing lasts for ever so have booked in to have it renewed.
 
Also recently had a new prop fitted which the service mechanic said would improve performance which it has, but in doing so appears to have put increased load on the steering so replacement probably very timely. 


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Anyone coughing at a group gathering must do so from far off so if they ignore that rule tell them FAR COUGH !


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 4:03pm
Just picked up this drum yesterday Steps. I'll cut the top and maybe put a small notch to raise and lower the leg. Did you cut a small notch?
On second thought maybe no notch.

I cut mine so the motor cavitaion plate sits an inch or so below the surface of the water when full.
 The tap inside is to take a bit of weight out when sliding under and out of the way...I estimated that by filling then bucketing out till became movable.. also holds the water when full.
 Note on the outside is where hose clips on to fill.
 The wood just covers a hole that the tank was used for a few decades ago
 The miss shapen top, that has been cause over the yrs by sliding under.. sorta.. then dropping motor and sort of feed the prop in by turning. Then drop the motor which either rolls the boat trailer back or slides to 3/4 full drum forward. Which ever moves the easiest at the time.
 Thats worked out well as the prop drops in rather easy now.

 The oil ring around the top.. if anyone has actually winterised their engine correctly will recognise that black straight away.




Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 5:31pm
Yes, a half drum should be plenty.
Don't have a tap in mine - just siphon out.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Sanchez
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 7:14pm
Im wondering what 3 days in the water without fresh water flushing would do to my yam 90 2 stroke while i camp on one of the doc islands up north ? Any advice here fellas?


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 8:09pm
I know heaps of motors that never get flushed, or go months/weeks without. No obvious issues. they go for years.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 9:03pm
without fresh water flushing would do to my yam 90 2 stroke while i camp on one of the doc islands up north ? Any advice here fellas?

 Johnnies Evinrudes , mercs all have a place to plug a garden hose in.. think yammie do to...
 Johnies eveinrudes (older models , un do the tell tale with a spark plug socket... and use an AMERICAN gardnen hose  bsp thread adapter on a short bt of hose...to plug into a garden hose
 Do not turn on the engine.
 This is how you flush a engine sitting in salt water at the dock.

And before anyone starts up about an "American BSP thread"
 that is what they are labeled at in miter 10/ bunnings outlets Wink

If you are using consistently over holidays, re using before any combo of salt and corrosion oxide deposits form , it will be flushed next use.
 leaving long periods weeks months between uses.. then eventually the chance on one day discovering a power head rebuild is on the cards should not be surprise.

 you are not doing the latter so would not loose any sleep over it.. thu could look at the hose flush if possible.
Should be a meant in the owners hand book.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2020 at 4:07am
Plenty of outboards on small launches/catamarans etc permanently moored never get a flush and have no problem,

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She said you're deaf.No I have selective hearing.And thats when it started.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2020 at 8:04am
Plenty of outboards on small launches/catamarans etc permanently moored never get a flush and have no problem,

 I have often wondered about this...many only get intermittent use ...
It may have something to do with the engine size, smaller engine less twists turns, galleries , hoses to than larger ( say 60 hp up) engines????


Posted By: Sanchez
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2020 at 8:09am
thanks for the advice. I've always been super anal about my engine. PJC I use the hose on my engine if I get in at 4am so I dont wake the world up, then flush with the engine on and muffs later. Always for at least 10 minutes so the thermostat is open. No hoses on Doc Islands tho. .. I guess I've been OTT all this time anyways so I'm not going to worry.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2020 at 8:22am
Obviously flushing is the sensible thing to do. But I know plenty of motors that get intermittent or near no flushing - and still run apparently with no issues. I flush mine every time- because I can. But for years I used to fish from a camp ground and it was forbidden to use water for such things - all summer , never flushed, no trailer wash - as were every body elses. Then I see the banana boats in the islands - mercs 30-40 HP, usually, some newer 4 S now too. Never get flushed - in the water all the time. Prob never get serviced either. Seem to keep going.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Big -Dave
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2020 at 8:14pm
If I'm away at Christmas, the motor only gets flushed on the way home..
Daily use, not an issue.
I pulled that motor apart after 10 years, corrosion was not an issue.

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you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...



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