Flyfishing with softbaits
Printed From: The Fishing Website
Category: Freshwater Fishing
Forum Name: Freshwater Fission
Forum Description: The place to discuss all matters related to freshwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=131493
Printed Date: 19 Apr 2024 at 2:57am
Topic: Flyfishing with softbaits
Posted By: Rainbow
Subject: Flyfishing with softbaits
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 8:46pm
    I have been doing pretty well fly fishing with unweighted 5cm softbaits on the Tongariro. Grub and paddle tail models in all sorts of colours. Unreal action when swinging across the current. They leave streamers for dead.Rainbow
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Replies:
Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 5:04pm
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A good bag of good Tongariro trout. Looking forward to an other trip end of July. Rainbow PS Having trouble to upload picture of a limit bag. |
Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 5:11pm
| Thanks Rainbow. I'm not much of a fly fisherman these days (geography), but have caught a couple of lake rainbows on Black Magic Jelly Beans with an intermediate line. Great little lures. |
Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 4:50pm
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Have you confirmed with DOC that those are legal to use in the Tongariro? According to DOC: fly fishing means to fish for trout with a fly rod, fly reel, fly line, leader, and artificial fly or flies. No person fishing for trout in waters reserved for fly fishing (as set out in the Schedule) shall add to or attach to any fly line, leader, or fly: any bare hook, spinner or bait They lack a definition for 'artificial fly' though. I can only find it in the Freshwater Fisheries Regulations: "artificial fly” means any lure of feather, fur, wool or other material of any kind customarily used in the making of artificial flies “spinner” means any artificial lure other than an artificial fly I might be wrong, but personally I think they rather qualify as spinners than flies ------------- http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Fishb8
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 5:22pm
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"artificial fly” means any lure of feather, fur, wool or other material of any kind customarily used in the making of artificial flies When these Rules were made it meant lead, fur, feather and woven silk fly line. Anything that can be tied on a hook is the new reality. I used a black SP with wiggly tail 20 years ago. ------------- Be yourself; everyone else is already taken |
Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 11:24pm
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Not a problem as the SB are made from the same material as silicon smelt or soft eggs and DOC does not have any problems with those. This said the Gennie is already out of the bottle. BTW I saw the same silly arguments about the Red Setter fly and shooting heads in the seventies and later about the globug and Heave and Leave fishing. We still have people who want to stipulate how much weight you can hang onto a fly. I actually have more problems with people lobbing sinkers to cast so-called fly-fishing rigs than using the weight of a flyline, which more accurately defines fly-fishing. Just to remind everyone it was I who lobbied DOC to close a loop hole in the regs and define the length of the leader in Czech, French or Polish nymphing as people were chucking sinkers on 20m mono all over the Tongariro. And guess what the Taupo Fishery Advisory Council called this "advanced" Czech nymphing. SBs work spectacularly well but nobody forces anybody to use them. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32801108450.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.6b144c4dOST5Bj" rel="nofollow - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32801108450.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.6b144c4dOST5Bj At that price I don't mind losing a few on snags. Rainbow
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Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 9:13pm
| I am happy to call myself a fly fishing reformer as long as the sport stays within the international convention of flyfishing, which means casting with a flyline as the casting weight. As such I have been campaigning for at least 30 years (All the way back to Pat Burstall's days) for the removal of fly and line weighting restriction, which have never made sense to me. I argued that one only needs to get down to the fish and not to the centre of the earth and overweighting does only produce phantom strikes and snags and that only so much weight can be cast with fly gear. All this amounts to that fly weight is self policing. At last DOC could see this nonsense and freed up the Taupo regs. Within this convention one needs to allow for the evolution of new techniques and new materials to keep the sport relevant. However this is not to say that some people can not get a lot of joy fishing with cane rods and other antique gear as long as they don't want to dictate to others as it sometimes happens. Rainbow Ps Come to think of it my argument with Pat Burstall was in the early seventies when I was seconded to attend a week long Wildlife Service conclave at Otaki. I bailed him up why one could not use a lead core shooting head on the Tongariro as in those days fly lines were not really sinking fast. All I ever got was that these lines contain lead and that they would easily foul hook fish. Sadly the Wildlife Service got stuck with this bad dose of Lead Poisoning, which carried over into how much weight one could tie onto a fly by restricting the size of the hook. I soldered a 1.5gram split shot on to a regulation sized hook and presented that to a senior DOC (ex Wildlife Service) officer for his opinion. He measured the hook and finding it within the law asked me: "What do you call that?" I said with a straight face: I call this the "Naked Nymph" as there is no guidance on how much dressing one has to tie on or how much dressing one can omit. Well the next year they relaxed the rules. And surprise, surprise the world has not come to an end. As they say common sense is not that common especially with people in AUTHORITY. |
Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 10:12pm
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Very interesting thread, Rainbow. The first trout I caught 'nymphing' at Taupo - in the late 1980s in the Waitahanui's Cliff Pool - was on a fly tied with bead chain eyes, brown Swannundaze (plastic body wrap) body, and a few whisks of pheasant tail. So more or less completely metal or plastic, and often the pheasant tail didn't last long. I tried to make a few silicon smelts back in the day. In more recent times I often used egg "flies" on the Tongariro which are just a plastic bead tied on with fluoro orange thread. No more natural than your "flies"...
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Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 7:52pm
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DOC's answer to the softbait in fly-fishing only waters. Question: Are soft baits legal – like those used for fly fishing in salt water – for wet lining on the Tongariro River? Answer: "Soft baits with any chemical attractant or scent added are illegal. Other soft baits, made of silicon or rubber similar to existing fly patterns such as silicon smelt, could be legal for use in Taupo Fishing District, including fly fishing only waters, so long as they are in accordance with the following regulations; 1. Interpretation—(1) Words and expressions in this notice which are defined in the Conservation Act 1987, the Taupō Fishery Regulations 2004 or the Taupō District Trout Fishery Licences Fees and Forms Notice 2011 shall be so defined. (2) In this notice, unless the context otherwise requires: bait means natural bait, including any insect or spider, worm, crustacean, shellfish, fish or fish ova, bread or cheese, or any scented lure, soft bait or other artificial lure with chemical attractant properties. 3. Authorised tackle—(1) No person may use bait when fishing for trout in the Taupō District. s3. Authorised tackle—(1) No person may use bait when fishing for trout in the Taupō District. A lure when used in fly-fishing water only would need to also meet the definition of an artificial fly- S3(2) artificial fly includes any lure of feather, fur, wool, or other material used in the making of artificial flies. And also to be compliant with- S3(4) No person fishing for trout in waters reserved for fly fishing (as set out in the Schedule) shall add to or attach to any fly line, leader, or fly: a. any bare hook, spinner or bait; b. anything made from lead, glass, plastic, or other material to facilitate casting or to increase the buoyancy of the line; or c. any sinker or other weight If in doubt we encourage anglers to contact us and provide details with regards to the lure or soft bait in question, and Taupo Fishery will provide guidance on a case by case basis". Rainbow
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Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 11:27am
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S3(4) No person fishing for trout in waters reserved for fly fishing (as set out in the Schedule) shall add to or attach to any fly line, leader, or fly: a. any bare hook, spinner or bait; b. anything made from lead, glass, plastic, or other material to facilitate casting or to increase the buoyancy of the line; or c. any sinker or other weight. Interesting! This provision would make Czech Nymphing illegal in fly only waters as without the bomb on the bottom these essentially mono rigs can't be cast or lobbed. Rainbow |
Posted By: Fraser Hocks
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 11:59am
Good point Rainbow. Gezz definition on regulations can be a hard one hey?  I recently raised the issue of back country licences linked to family licences and how that pertains to the secondary licence holders ability to fish back country rivers. Essentially the regs for Otago will have a line in them in the future that states that the secondary licence holder is also covered by the primary license holders BC licence. Im not sure how this is approached for other regions however.
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Rainbow wrote:Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 3:05pm
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Hi Frazer I only mentioned the above to point out that regs need to be considered very carefully so as not to inadvertently entrap a fishing method that has a large international following and has already been around for decades under different names before the Czechs reinvented it. Some regulations never made sense in the first place while others left a hole that quickly led to abuse on the Tongariro. Rainbow
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Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 5:01pm
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Hmm, so still no definite answer if they are legal or not in the Taupo fishery. Have you sent the picture to DOC by any chance. in my eyes, they are still standard spinners, but that might be my perception, because I used those type of lures on spinning gear to catch for perch, zander and pike 25 years ago. ------------- http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Legacy
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 5:56pm
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I don’t see using soft plastics as fly fishing even if delivered using a fly line but I can see someone who has used a lot of large streamer type flies finding them an extension of that style of fishing. The legality of Czech nymphing puzzles me though. I really enjoy casting a fly line but do spend half my ‘fly fishing” time Czech nymphing. My typical heaviest fly is usually around a 4mm bead on a size12 hook and a hare and copper type fly and I see it as a fly that catches fish and not just a sinker. But that point fly does control a lot of the cast/lob. There is also some line management too but really it’s leader and indicator line and not fly line so is it fly fishing ? It’s fishing with flies but the line only really controls where the flies end up. |
Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 8:34pm
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I copied the DOC answer from the Tongariro Motel daily report. If you carefully read all the regulations/interpretations stated, unscented soft-baits comply with every one of them. Everything else is just personal opinion, which anybody is entitled to have. Maybe it would help if these "flies" were just called Tongariro Wiggler, Silicon Streamer, Wounded Kokopu/Koaro (take your pick), Herb's Sacrilege or just Rubber Bugger? Rainbow
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Posted By: Legacy
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 9:06pm
| I’d go with Herb’s Rubber Buggers . |
Posted By: BigEarn
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 10:59pm
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They have a name for more than 30 years, it's 'Twister' and an artificial spinning lure, used in the US and Europe for decades. It's a complete, ready product - a spinning lure, intended to be slid on a hook...weighted or unweighted. Just because rubber might be used in other ways as one of multiple "materials" to create an artificial fly, e.g. rubber legs, I disagree with your interpretation, that everything out of rubber can be considered a 'material used in the making of artificial flies". Your not making an artificial fly, you putting a ready made spinning bait on a hook. ------------- http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 11:01am
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Legacy thank you. Immortality at last!!!!!! BigErn Flyfishing has been bedevilled by hair splitters since Isaac Walton. BTW this is DOC's interpretation not mine. New things come, most fade away and only a few good ones endure. Here is an example of idiots I have met on the Tongariro. I was fishing behind a guy when our lines got tangled. He insisted to free it (probably wanted to look at my flies) After he finished he came walking back and with a schoolmasterly look said: "I see you are using lead" in reference to my splitshot soldered to my hook. I replied: Yes, but don't you use lead to get down to the fish? He answered with a stern face: "Of course but I wrap mine around". But wait there are more. I was confronted by a guy with a cynical sounding voice just as I was stringing up my rod . " Ah, you are one of those nymphomaniacs" When I asked him what sort of methods he was using he proudly told me that he was a traditional Tongariro wet line angler. I looked at his gear and lol saw his shooting head and a red setter and told him: "Well mate I don't know how long you have been fishing this river but I can still remember when people just like you wanted to ban the shooting head and the red setter. So don't spout to me about tradition." Rainbow |
Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 2:29pm
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Some extracts from a review of GEM SKUES's biography by Active Angling NZ "Skues honed his craft and developed his theories based on what he observed on the Abbots Barton stretch of the River Itchen where he fished continually for fifty years. He understood this stretch of water intimately and consistently caught fish there even when others struggled. This ultimately was to be his undoing as the syndicate that he was a member of eventually gave him the ultimatum to “fish dry fly exclusively or move on” just before the outbreak of the Second World War. They simply were sick of being out fished and blamed a decline in the fishery on Skues and his nymph fishing. He was crestfallen but chose to leave rather than fight as he was nearly 80 years old by then. Skues fished other rivers successfully after leaving Abbots Barton but his heart never left the river he loved. A sad end to a gripping story.
The thing which struck me most while reading the biography is how the sport of fly fishing seems to have been dominated by arbitrary rules and dogma from the outset. Even NZ has not been spared this. Remember the fight over wet line and nymph fishing on the Tongariro in the late 1980’s – late 1990’s? I wonder how Skues and Halford would view the way nymphs are now fished in the Tongariro? I’d like to bet they would decry the use of bombs and in a delicious irony join forces to try and change the rules to outlaw them. Maybe it is time for everyone to open their minds and just allow anglers to fish how they want to within the rules, without fear of censure or rebuke." Well said Mate Rainbow
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Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 3:24pm
| Fly fishing itself is arbitrary. Why deliberately make it harder to catch fish than it needs to be? There are some circumstances where fly fishing beats all other methods, but fly fishing only rules exist because trout are too easy to catch by other means. Fly fishing is fun no doubt and some would not fish any other way, but compulsion to fly fish is arbitrary. |
Posted By: Fraser Hocks
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 4:22pm
Totally agree. It comes down to how the individual wishes to fish. Id prefer to go out and fish, say drys only on a day and know that it might likely mean that I dont land a fish, but that's my choice and I gain the satisfaction of catching the fish the way I want to. To some others that seems mad, but hey thats my choice hey?  In the words of Max Garth "why do you fly fish? Because its harder!"  RIP Max. |
Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 6:50pm
| I get it. I only fish for snapper with lures. I'm not interested in bait fishing. If I go out on my mate's boat and he wants to drop anchor and have a fish with bait, I'll often have a nap. It's not a question of snobbery, or thinking my chosen technique is superior in some way, it's just a matter of preference. |