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Firearms Reforms-Law abiding shooters need support

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Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 1:19am


Topic: Firearms Reforms-Law abiding shooters need support
Posted By: jackel
Subject: Firearms Reforms-Law abiding shooters need support
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 9:32pm
Hi all, 

Hi team!
 

We have been waiting to send out this email. We wanted the rapidly changing situation to become clearer.

As you will know, a terrorist stuck in Christchurch using a variety of firearms. His manifesto said that he chose guns as his weapon only because it would give the most media attention.

Within hours of this horror the Prime Minister announced changes to our gun laws.

The Police Union told shooters to stay out of it. The Prime Minister immediately seconded this thought and the media ran with the narrative that the 'Gun lobby' must not get a chance to 'dilute' the proposed changes. Whatever they may be.

The interviewer from the 'AM Show' can even be heard cooing "Excellent" in a quiet voice when a National MP gave her the answer that she wanted here.

The propaganda was total. The grieving public were sold a lie. The gun laws had to change NOW. There was simply no reason for having such rifles.

Then came the stunts.

A hero handed in the rifle that he now deemed too dangerous. The media left out the part where he was a Green Party candidate who hates guns. The Prime Minister immediately congratulated "All the shooters handing in guns".

"All" being just him.

Then - only days after the tragedy - Jacinda Adern announces the first law change with zero notice.

An order in council commanded the following:

No photo description available.

No consultation. Just a dirty back room deal with God knows who getting their way.

As this was announced so was a total ban on semi auto rifles and shotguns in New Zealand.

Parliament was to meet under urgency and formalize this in a matter of just days. With the bill enacted by April the 11th.

When asked if submissions could be made she laughed and said "Hurry".

A third round of additional gun restrictions is to follow after that.

All this before any investigation into how the horror happened. Even as each day revealed another failing by Police to properly vet the killer or to follow up on warning about him.

We did our best to open the conversation up:

https://shooterslottery.us17.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e4a4998523c665167b7a377cd&id=6e3b35308f&e=a337e56a77" rel="nofollow - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214145

and

https://shooterslottery.us17.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e4a4998523c665167b7a377cd&id=f10fc93602&e=a337e56a77" rel="nofollow - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111100032/firearms-registration-would-be-an-expensive-and-worthless-exercise

and to warn that the proposed laws could not only fail to make us safer but in fact make things worse:

https://shooterslottery.us17.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e4a4998523c665167b7a377cd&id=22c373a61c&e=a337e56a77" rel="nofollow - https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2019/03/the-danger-of-jacindas-new-gun-laws/

As we have done in the recent past:

https://shooterslottery.us17.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e4a4998523c665167b7a377cd&id=8e1b3e79c7&e=a337e56a77" rel="nofollow - https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/criminals-use-guns-relative-impunity

But the fix was in.

There are five things that YOU need to do RIGHT NOW.

The first is to sign this petition.

https://shooterslottery.us17.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e4a4998523c665167b7a377cd&id=a423ccfe90&e=a337e56a77" rel="nofollow - https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_86334/petition-of-hayden-livingstone-kiwis-request-reasonable

It calls for Parliament to actually hear the nation's concerns before acting and only takes a minute.

The last petition had several thousand signatures but was removed by the host site simply because they hate guns. This petition can not be interfered with.

The second thing to do is to make a submission to the committee 'considering' the formal law change in a matter of days.

Just email here:

mailto:[email protected]" rel="nofollow - [email protected].nz

Don't be intimidated. Just say what you feel. Will a ban on semi automatic firearms stop a future horror?

Keeping in mind that the Christchurch terrorist killed 50 innocent humans with a gun - in specific revenge for another madman killing 87 with a truck?

Do you think the laws could push guns underground and make the situation worse?

Have your say.

The third thing to do is to contact your local MP.

Call or email or visit them. Be respectful but make clear that you expect them to do the RIGHT thing here. Not to just virtue signal.

A list of MPs is available here:

https://shooterslottery.us17.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e4a4998523c665167b7a377cd&id=9ddd36341d&e=a337e56a77" rel="nofollow - https://www.parliament.nz/en/mps-and-electorates/members-of-parliament/

The forth thing to do is write to the Prime Minister about your concerns.

Her address is:

mailto:[email protected]" rel="nofollow - jacinda.ardern@parliament.govt.nz

Copy in the following 4 people:

  mailto:[email protected]" rel="nofollow - David.Seymour@parliament.govt.nz

mailto:[email protected]" rel="nofollow - Christopher.Bishop@parliament.govt.nz

mailto:[email protected]" rel="nofollow - [email protected]

mailto:ro[email protected]" rel="nofollow - [email protected]

The last thing to do is check that your mates are OK.

Some people are having a hard time coming to terms with losing their sport and the amazing people that they know because of it. Lets make sure that we are all OK in the face of some pretty horrific online abuse.

Act now team.

The last week has been insanity on fast forward.

Lets insist that reasoned discourse returns to the conversation. Or there will not be a conversation at all.

Share this email with your shooting friends. Sign them up to the lottery.

Now is not the time to dwell on which politicians chose to virtue signal in the media or which shooters sold out their brothers and sisters.

Act NOW to preserve your shooting heritage.

Stay positive!

The Shooters Lottery




Replies:
Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 9:37pm
Hey all if anyone would like this email sent to them direct, please let me know. The petition already has over 10,000 signatures to slow down these knee-jerk reforms and look at the bigger picture before punishing us law abiding citizens. 

If you dont do anything else, please at least sign the petition it only takes minutes. 

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_86334/petition-of-hayden-livingstone-kiwis-request-reasonable?fbclid=IwAR1rNYcPUw5x6V1fLlxPp5USA3VMIiGjX3jCCy1wO9NqdcL8iXNnKVhuFJs" rel="nofollow - https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_86334/petition-of-hayden-livingstone-kiwis-request-reasonable?fbclid=IwAR1rNYcPUw5x6V1fLlxPp5USA3VMIiGjX3jCCy1wO9NqdcL8iXNnKVhuFJs


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 6:21am
INNOCENT FIREARM HANDOVER:

The innocent handing in their firearms to stop extremist terror crime of the ONE MAN
Is like a like Every Man chopping of his Penis to stop Rape Crime 



-------------
Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 10:47am
While I like my guns, hunted all my life, why does anyone need 'easy'access to MSSA's carrying more than 5 rounds?Yes there are a few specific taks that might need them, so if I undertand correctly you can get a permit for that. So no one loses there MSSA if they have a valid need for it and pass the security requirments.

I don't like these fast tracked govt processes, but lets face it - the vast (VAST) majority of NZer's will support the new MSSA rules, mainly becasue they make good sense. So slowing down the process is not because the majority of Kiwis will change their view, it is about giving the gun lobbiests time to try and get a decision that opposes the majority view. I hate lobbiests more than I hate fast tracked govt decisions.


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 4:13pm
Hi Tagit, there seems to have been many errors in the assessment of that individual to get his A Cat firearms licence, as stated by Joe Green (retired) Police Inspector, here are some articles by him. The perpetrator in Christchurch, in my view should not have received his licence in the first place, and secondly illegally fitted a large capacity magazine to the rifle, thereby making it E Cat. Unfortunately, E Cat licence holders who have jumped through hoops (willingly) to obtain this endorsement will be stripped of their rifles and no longer be able to do things such as shoot Service Rifle competitions, nationally and internationally and it will also affect pest control etc. more 1080 reqd. 

p.s Tagit this post is just meant as food for thought, not saying I am right and you are wrong just sharing a different viewpoint. 

From Inspector Joe Green (Ret):NZ Police national arms control section manager from 1998 to 2013.

Was the integrity of the firearms licensing process compromised?

In my opinion piece published in the DomPost on 20 March 2019 I said that “Legislators would do well to begin with a close review of the firearms licensing process as it was applied to Friday’s offender. It is after all the mechanism by which he gained lawful access to firearms”.

I now understand that the firearms licensing process as it was applied to the offender in the Christchurch shootings was compromised in that:

• The offender applied for his firearms licence in a Police District in which he might have an increased chance of getting it approved.

• It seems that there was no interview of the offender’s spouse, partner or next of kin (the person who knows them best).

• The process requires the interview of an unrelated referee. I understand that two people were interviewed. They knew the offender primarily through an on-line chat room. Both referees are recorded as saying the same.

• The offender declined to be interviewed at his home. He was interviewed at his place of work.

• There is doubt as to if a home visit and security inspection took place.

• It is apparent in the vetting process that the offender has no friends as such.

This outlines a classic scenario for someone setting up to obtain a firearms licence for nefarious purposes, and because due process was not followed, he succeeded.

Having obtained a firearms licence it is but a short step to obtaining firearms. A step he took.

Changing the law in terms of the possession and use of firearms by law abiding people will have little effect on safety unless the integrity of the licensing process is maintained. 


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 5:40pm
Whatever happened re his licence issue is z eed herring. The issue is bsning of miltsry style mssa as they currently stand.
Talking around here most of the guts tend agree.. Be arms holders or not.
Then there is a small number who eed a bigger voice.. Ie farmers who have serious goat /larger pest issues.
I do see in these cases where a special licence to be able to hold these guns.. With limitation on mag size..
The little 2 is not coming under scrutiny as I understand it.

I have never understood with the big shake up.. Back in the 80s from memory.. Removing the registration of each gun to a licence holder.
This enables to know where guns are who owns what.. Including who owns mssa guns currently
Think about it.. If this info was known back in aromamana. Or even now.. A full investigation could be carried out if each owner has turned into a possible nutta
Or even just a periodic follow up of the owners

I had to re sit my licence a couple yrs back after letting it expire for a few decades..
The interview of sponsers, family, my background was real though to say the least. Then sit the test.
I got one wrong due to misunderstanding of 1 question.
I finished the test, went over the paper again when most of the others where still turning the 1st and 2nd pages.
I'm think what the hell no time limit.. If one Is going for a gun licence surely there should be no hesitation in being able to answer any of them???

Quite frankly I looked around that room and wondered why in the hell at least 3/4 of them would need a licence to hold a gun....
I have no idea how many finally qualified.

I mentioned this to my son who got his licence a few yrs before.. And his experience was the same..

A gun licence is no different to a driver's licence.. Its a privilege not a right.


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 5:49pm
Thanks Steps on your thoughts, no-one including myself does not think 'something' has to be done, but as you will see here again by Joe Green is legislation was rushed through back in 1992 which has led in part due to the loop-hole with A and E Cat licences. All licence holders and non-licence holders share the countries shock and horror at the sick individual who took those lives and don't want to see it repeated, be it by firearm or other means. 

JOE GREEN
Firearms Safety Council chairman, and former police national arms control officer

Hastily implemented changes to legislation have the potential to work against the safe use and control of firearms. Right here in New Zealand we have an excellent previous example that is very much relevant to Friday's tragic events.

After the Aramoana shootings in 1992, the government acted quickly to address the issue of semi-automatic firearms. Among much political rhetoric, the features that were thought to constitute a military-style firearm entered into law as what we now know as a military-style semi-automatic, known commonly as an MSSA.

Ever since, this legal construct has provided difficulties for both law enforcement and users.

While those wishing to use MSSAs have to apply for an endorsement on their firearms licence, undergo a higher level of police vetting and have in place a higher level of security, few controls – other than those regarding importation –  were placed on the constituent parts that make a semi-automatic firearm an MSSA.

Judge Thorp, in his 1997 Review of Firearms Control in New Zealand, considered that this created a "potential for evasion of the law". An opportunity that Friday's offender took advantage of – he fitted large-capacity magazines to his sporting firearms, placing himself outside the law.

Little attention has been paid to the ability to obtain large-capacity magazines without having to demonstrate that one could lawfully possess a MSSA.

Former chief justice Dame Sian Elias said "legislation should be based on solid facts, not pious hopes". This sounds a warning to legislators. New Zealand already has an enviable record in terms of numbers of deaths in which firearms were the cause.

The possession of firearms in this country is controlled by a licensing regime that has possibly the most intrusive vetting in the world. The firearms community would be concerned at any move to change this process.

Legislators would do well to begin with a close review of the firearms licensing process as it was applied to Friday's offender. It is, after all, the mechanism by which he gained lawful access to firearms.

Finally, close consultation with firearms users is going to be essential if we are not to repeat the difficulties of the hastily made changes to the Arms Act in 1992. It is within this community that the expertise resides. They, too, are reeling from Friday's events and looking for answers.




Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 5:56pm
I have followed that up with an article by Paul Buchanan former intelligence, and defense policy analyst and consultant for the US state Govt.(Living in NZ for quite a number of years now). These guys I have quoted are not light weight guys, they are qualified to speak on these issues and carry more weight than self appointed 'media' experts from TV1 and TV3. (Article below published on Stuff)

by Paul Buchanan 15/3/19

Security analyst Paul Buchanan said he had seen the manifesto of the alleged Christchurch shooter and his presence on right-wing platforms online.

"He is a very clear white supremacist who has been planning this for two years," he said.

Mr Buchanan called the Christchurch shooting a watershed moment in New Zealand history.

He told Checkpoint it was worse that the Rainbow Warrior attack and the Trades Hall bombing.

"This is about as bad as it can get because it shows we don't live in a benign environment ... we've been affected with the virus of extremism.

"The thing is it came from white supremacists and not the Islamic community, [they were] the target today."

"Why wasn't he flagged earlier and this whole episode prevented?" - Security analyst Paul Buchanan (6 min 39 sec)

Mr Buchanan said the mosque attack would raise a lot of questions within the security services because the "bulk of intelligence-gathering and efforts at prevention when it comes to terrorism have been directed at the Islamic community of New Zealand".

That meant that resources were not directed towards right-wing extremists.

"The intelligence services were looking the wrong way."

New Zealand succumbs to US 'homicidal politics of confrontation'

 

he shooter might have been part of a small cell who had some support in the Christchurch area, rather than a lone wolf, Mr Buchanan said.

He said this was because automatic or semi-automatic weapons weren't easily available in New Zealand without a licence.

"The weapon, from what I can tell, may have been modified. It takes some technical skills to modify a hunting weapon into something that's semi-automatic.

"He had high capacity magazines, he may have used a bump stock which was used by the Las Vegas shooter. These guys learn from each other."

The alleged shooter appeared to be on Twitter until a few hours ago.

"He was on right-wing platforms, including the platform that was used by the synagogue shooter in Pittsburgh last year. So, he's been out there with his views for a while.

"Why wasn't he flagged earlier and this whole episode prevented?"

He said this was a time to do some soul searching about how New Zealand had succumbed to "the homicidal politics of confrontation that we see in the US and Europe".

The first order of business would be to apprehend the subject and then his associates who helped him in his venture, he said. Thereafter it would pay to work back towards the planning and motivation.

Mr Buchanan said the shooter's skill set indicated he was either ex-military or had learned at the hands of someone else, who might be ex-military.

"Let's be very clear, Christchurch has a very active white supremacist community. A community that has attacked refugees and people of colour on multiple occasions over the last 20 years. This is the worst of them."

 




Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 6:26pm
Firearms vetting maybe the most intrusive in the world.
Yeh when I was interviewed he had stuff there even I had long forgotten about.. Decades ago last century..
Did I mind. No.. Could it have prevented me getti g my licence again.. Maybe if one of my sponsors had questioned my sanity or something..
They did not
I have no issue with the depth of vetting, or adding a few other things to that vetting.. Like certain associations to certain sectors of society.
Generally governments when do a knee jerk they screw up bad.. In particular this government.
In this case the knee jerk is very mildly questionable going ever so slightly too far.. That an minor adjustment to regs would fix later
But essentualy not going anywhere as far in other area
Over all for now.. I'm OK with it... And a few goats will live another day for awhile

With all due respect the fload of information judtifsction o me is way overboard propaganda NSA type lobbing that at this point in time will do far more damage to attitudes and any future adjustments for legitimate use of firearms


Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

While I like my guns, hunted all my life, why does anyone need 'easy'access to MSSA's carrying more than 5 rounds?Yes there are a few specific taks that might need them, so if I undertand correctly you can get a permit for that. So no one loses there MSSA if they have a valid need for it and pass the security requirments.

I don't like these fast tracked govt processes, but lets face it - the vast (VAST) majority of NZer's will support the new MSSA rules, mainly becasue they make good sense. So slowing down the process is not because the majority of Kiwis will change their view, it is about giving the gun lobbiests time to try and get a decision that opposes the majority view. I hate lobbiests more than I hate fast tracked govt decisions.
agree with Tagit 100% - I have a firearms license and was vetted when applied for and a retired cop came and visited my house and interviewed wife in a separate room - as Tagit notes support for change here in NZ is VAST so its going to happen.
Have seen it at work and in society someone abuses a privilege and the rules change -  may not like it but this is what happens and I think the gun lobby has had its day after 49 people died!
Just be thankful that all guns were not banned - that would have been a knee jerk reaction.


-------------
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 7:54am
Stuart Nash spoke about a gun register and nothing is going to happen till maybe end of April. They want to get it right,but they certainly rushed to ban semis. A good shooter with a bolt action 5 shot mag could load and fire and do as much damage,at this stage no mention of how mags one can own.




-------------
Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 9:02am
Notice they banned semis.. Well current sales.. The legislation for buy back etc is still in the works.. Along with register as PJC mentions.
So currently the knee jerk ownership bs is not true.
And no doubt when the legiststion is reveiwd soon.. The issue of who owns /requires for pest control.. Ie professional pest control people. Will also be considered.
The new reg then doesn't seem quite as knee jerk as it 1st seems.

I have seen professional shooters (pre chopper pre mssa days} drop several deer and goats before the heard disappeared.. Meaning days /weeks relocating set up and repeat.
With advent of mssa guns it's not 3 or 4 dropped.. And that's only with a hand ful highly skilled cullers.. A farmer with a little ptactice can do the same with every shot being a drop. Effective culling these days is a very time consuming job with heards far more skiterish and fewer than 40 or 50yrs ago.

There are some tools and practices that are only permitted to certain trades and occupations and ppl within those trades. Doctors Dentists electrical and plumbing gas fitting.. I see no reason why mssa are not restricted in the same way....


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 10:11am
Why did we even have the MSSA loophole that the shooter used? I suspect that falls directly st the feet of our gun lobby after Aramoana. I would love to be able to dig up the truth on that. Maybe those responsible could volunteer to pay the costs of supporting families that lost parents. Probably not going to happen though.

MSSA's, like handguns, have very limited useful purposes other than killing people. If you have a genuine purpose then going through the extra checks etc shouldn't be an issue. If it's just your favourite toy then that's not worth people getting killed for IMO.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 10:22am
Originally posted by jackel jackel wrote:

Hi Tagit, there seems to have been many errors in the assessment of that individual to get his A Cat firearms licence, as stated by Joe Green (retired) Police Inspector, here are some articles by him. The perpetrator in Christchurch, in my view should not have received his licence in the first place, and secondly illegally fitted a large capacity magazine to the rifle, thereby making it E Cat. Unfortunately, E Cat licence holders who have jumped through hoops (willingly) to obtain this endorsement will be stripped of their rifles and no longer be able to do things such as shoot Service Rifle competitions, nationally and internationally and it will also affect pest control etc. more 1080


And the scaremongering from the lobbiests starts. We dont drop 1080 to kill pests that you shoot with MSSA'S. I assume they use them for goats and maybe Thar. But what other pests herd in the open today where you get to shoot off lots of rounds? What is the real, actual impact of only having 7 (or 5) rounds instead of 30? I am sure there might be some, but enough to see more people get killed?
I hadn't heard that MSSA's were going to completely banned. I thought they were just going to be limited to class E licences with I assume an upgraded checking procedure etc? What has been announced so far?


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 11:31am
I have read a few reports from crusher Colin's Banks and couple other ministers and chair persons of review committees over that last few decades..
A lot of it seems bit of po, itical statement told you so stuff.
Then sort of read between the lines common theme is that those on the committees had been inundated with and over whelming amount of information that in retro spec was designed to confuse and run red herrings.
This then lead to the refuse committittes making, in retrospect decisions not originally intended with open loopholes.
A tactic widely imployed by the all powerful American arms organisation, and seems financed this in nz.

This time round Crusher, Banks and others are basically openly saying for these, most likely sponsored American based lobbyist to.. Quote "pi55 off".
Let's get back to making rules for us by us.
We told them to P off over no nukes.. And they put on sanctions which to this day many still exist...
Trump Said to our Pm sorry it happened to our country, was there anything he could do to help us. Yeah remove the alluimium and steel restrictions, open up free trade to us..
We need trade with major markets or die economically.. The use is Damn near closed openly or Suttle beurocratic which leaves.. Who?
So I have no compunction that a ban put on American lobbyists like NRA


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 1:48pm
Lobbiests ste employed to get governments to make decisions they know dont follow the majority will. They are a stain on democratic processes. He who has the most money wins.


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why did we even have the MSSA loophole that the shooter used? I suspect that falls directly st the feet of our gun lobby after Aramoana. I would love to be able to dig up the truth on that. Maybe those responsible could volunteer to pay the costs of supporting families that lost parents. Probably not going to happen though.

MSSA's, like handguns, have very limited useful purposes other than killing people. If you have a genuine purpose then going through the extra checks etc shouldn't be an issue. If it's just your favourite toy then that's not worth people getting killed for IMO.

Hey Tagit, have a re-read of the post above regarding Joe Green-he was in charge of the Police firearms National Arms control section manager from 1998-2013 surely he must carry some weight in your eyes? The govt created the loophole by rushing through legislation. Here is the excerpt to see for yourself. 

After the Aramoana shootings in 1992, the government acted quickly to address the issue of semi-automatic firearms. Among much political rhetoric, the features that were thought to constitute a military-style firearm entered into law as what we now know as a military-style semi-automatic, known commonly as an MSSA.

Ever since, this legal construct has provided difficulties for both law enforcement and users.

All the firearms holders want is reasoned and well thought out consultation with those in the know, not those who think they are, there is a difference. 

To put it another way, there was talk a while ago about creating more marine reserves in NZ. Imagine if the govt just said we are doing it anyway and we arnt going to consult those affected. We are going to ring-fence all islands in the hauraki gulf. Imagine the backlash. We both know that there is a lot more that needs to be discussed in my example, such as is it going to achieve the goal we desire? Who are the affected parties? Are there going to be un-intended consequences? (as there should be). 

I read 29 gang members received the firearms licence in 2016, surely this would be an area to address wouldnt you think? How did they pass the requirement of being a 'fit and proper person'? 

At the end of the day we all want to be safer but regrettably the 'easy' targets (law abiding gun owners) are going to be hit rather than those who never will hand in any firearms. More scrutiny is fine, but Jacinda has got her political future to take into account so I think its too late. 


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 11:26am
Jacinda has got her political future to take into account so I think its too late. 

Why?
note my post above.
She has been listening to ppl like fed farmers..

What ever happens the law will tighten up..mssa may or may not be completely banned...  
Maybe extending registration to owners making owners responsible for their guns and police knowing who has what..
Vetting is already strict..come down to who vetts , not the system.. thu maybe some areas here tightened up a little.
The rules as to not being in charge of a gun on and drugs/ alcohol.. even prescribed heart drugs etc,  carrying and transport currently all good in my books.
 purchase of ammo all good.. maybe also include certain or all gun parts.
And notification when move house..even if have a license and no guns, you must still have secure storage...and they are quick on that too.

Our guns where moved to another licence holder while open homes, and during the move.. even thu had not picked them up was still inspected and had to have the safe storage.

Something here , had a cuppa with the police inspector person.. she mentioned how easy our inspection was.. and other  the ppl are not available, put off for many reasons time and again over months.. I queering why there was no time limit after the move, and why cant she just say to them
" right inspection will be X day, and if not we then immediately revoke the license and take the guns.. end of story "
The hassle then is " I dont have any guns.."
And since there is not registration they get to keep their guns and no licence and no correct storage.

Far too much in this country there is  bureaucratic policy of re education ...rather than enforcement..
Classic example the enquiry into LTSA boils down to "re education" and no enforcement till ppl die.



Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by jackel jackel wrote:

Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why did we even have the MSSA loophole that the shooter used? I suspect that falls directly st the feet of our gun lobby after Aramoana. I would love to be able to dig up the truth on that. Maybe those responsible could volunteer to pay the costs of supporting families that lost parents. Probably not going to happen though.

MSSA's, like handguns, have very limited useful purposes other than killing people. If you have a genuine purpose then going through the extra checks etc shouldn't be an issue. If it's just your favourite toy then that's not worth people getting killed for IMO.


Hey Tagit, have a re-read of the post above regarding Joe Green-he was in charge of the Police firearms National Arms control section manager from 1998-2013 surely he must carry some weight in your eyes? The govt created the loophole by rushing through legislation. Here is the excerpt to see for yourself. 

After the Aramoana shootings in 1992, the government acted quickly to address the issue of semi-automatic firearms. Among much political rhetoric, the features that were thought to constitute a military-style firearm entered into law as what we now know as a military-style semi-automatic, known commonly as an MSSA.

Ever since, this legal construct has provided difficulties for both law enforcement and users.

All the firearms holders want is reasoned and well thought out consultation with those in the know, not those who think they are, there is a difference. 

To put it another way, there was talk a while ago about creating more marine reserves in NZ. Imagine if the govt just said we are doing it anyway and we arnt going to consult those affected. We are going to ring-fence all islands in the hauraki gulf. Imagine the backlash. We both know that there is a lot more that needs to be discussed in my example, such as is it going to achieve the goal we desire? Who are the affected parties? Are there going to be un-intended consequences? (as there should be). 

I read 29 gang members received the firearms licence in 2016, surely this would be an area to address wouldnt you think? How did they pass the requirement of being a 'fit and proper person'? 
At the end of the day we all want to be safer but the 'easy' targets (law abiding gun owners) are going to be hit rather than those who never will hand in any firearms. More scrutiny is fine, but Jacinda has got her political future to take into account so I think its too late.
I like my guns. Not antigun at all. In this case though the scales balance heavily in favour of restricting easy access to MSSA's. The other changes being discussed are going through the normal consultation process, So here we are only talking about whether you can have a semi auto with more than 5 round capacity if I understood properly??
If that is all it is at this stage I think the worlds impression of how we act is probably more important than talking about things for a couple of months and then doing it anyway. I wouldn't normally say that, but this just seems too obvious and too important. Best guess maybe just over 0.1% of the population own MSSA's so it is a super minority being affected.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 9:25am
Exactly..
Let's put it this way.. There are one hell of a lot of licence holders and gun owners here..
I don't see any getting up and being vocal re the rush of legislation or the very publicly intended proposal in this thread.
Responsible hunters, skeet shooters, farmers, collectors(most of who I know are rare vintage type guns) , competition gun owners rely have no issue with mssa and the fat track legislation.
I have meet 1 person, not anti the legislation, more disappointed... A regular hunter who after shooting a mssa on several occasions, was going to buy one shortly before terror-able friday.. Only cause he has now access to friends with farms with ferrel goat issues.
Is rather p155ed that because of a very tiny minority once again limits out freedoms... Note angry at the minority not the legislation.

So as I see it.. Concerns of rushed legislation, restrictions etc the over kill of red herring gobblygoo info has resulted in a handful of forum members all being understanding to being in favour of the government actions

Simply put.. This thread is a non event.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 12:55pm
Just following Australia after the port Albert massacre.   Living in the snowy mountains oz.about 1982 to 1984. Went down to local cop shop paid $10 for a shooters licence brought a .22 off a farmer in the Woolpack $150 sold it back to him 2 yrs later.no registration only needed ID to buy rounds. So guess the rules really did need tightening up.Only time a weapon was registered was if you brought off a retailer but didn't have to do anything if sold privately.

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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 1:51pm
Anyone know if this new law now includes all semiauto centre fires or just the MSSA's? Latest news is suggesting all semis other than 22's and shotguns. Not as happy with that if true. Will there still be some form of E licence?


Posted By: CrayZfish
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 3:06pm
From Stuff Tagit:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111709387/guns-handed-in-by-end-of-september" rel="nofollow - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111709387/guns-handed-in-by-end-of-september
 
The ban essentially covers all semi-automatics except for .22 rimfire firearms that cannot hold more than 10 rounds and semi-automatic shotguns that cannot hold more than five rounds. All MSSAs and other semi-automatics will be banned, along with any magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds, and any modification that can make a weapon semi-automatic or fully automatic.

The exemptions for .22s and shotguns are intended to allow for the legitimate use of firearms for pest-control.

I know plenty of duckshooter's that have more than 5 shot capacity mags and there must be a heap of (non MSSA) rifles out there that sit within the banned guns??
 
 


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Why choose either diving or fishing when you can do both. Besides crayfish tail is very good bait!!


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 8:21pm
Well here you go,what are our gutless police force going to do??

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217785&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nzh_fb&fbclid=IwAR2TdWA1RSglkGPLJNHXSqUE4Q-7f1DA2ZeTaqf4yWgUswcTooRpoBelJC8%20" rel="nofollow - www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217785&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nzh_fb&fbclid=IwAR2TdWA1RSglkGPLJNHXSqUE4Q-7f1DA2ZeTaqf4yWgUswcTooRpoBelJC8



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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Grasshoppa
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 8:42pm
Anyone still think this post is a non event?

The Arms Amendment Bill is the first real step to really locking down/restricting all firearms
Is this a bad thing? Probably not if managed well
Is it an over reaction? Maybe not if it stopped at MSSA's

Its already advanced from proposing to ban MSSA's to looking like any centre fire semi auto, nearly all magazine fed semi auto centre fire's have aftermarket 5+ shot mag's available (in catalogs at least) that makes them "modified" by the Bills interpretation

There's been not so quiet whispers that suppressors will be in line not far down the track also
If you think it ends here you're as naive as some of the early comments on this post suggest

I would also suggest the lack of voice from most on this is more about not wanting to attract any unwanted attention than compliance, hence Jackel trying to motivate responsible firearm owners to be heard while they still can

Could be off the mark but thats my 2cents



Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 8:56pm
[QUOTE=CrayZfish]
From Stuff Tagit:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111709387/guns-handed-in-by-end-of-september" rel="nofollow - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111709387/guns-handed-in-by-end-of-september
 
The ban essentially covers all semi-automatics except for .22 rimfire firearms that cannot hold more than 10 rounds and semi-automatic shotguns that cannot hold more than five rounds. All MSSAs and other semi-automatics will be banned, along with any magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds, and any modification that can make a weapon semi-automatic or fully automatic.<p ="sics-component__-injector sics-component__story__paragraph"> The exemptions for .22s and shotguns are intended to allow for the legitimate use of firearms for pest-control.

I know plenty of duckshooter's that have more than 5 shot capacity mags and there must be a heap of (non MSSA) rifles out there that sit within the banned guns??
 
 
[/QUOTE

I read that and it didn't look like I thought we were expecting to get. Have no issue with limiting semi auto hunting weapons to 5 shots, and even putting them on an E licence, but not comvinced about banning them all. That wasn't how this was announced.


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:23pm
Hey guys, some interesting discussion here which is great. Yes it is correct its not just MSSA's it also includes older historic stuff like M1 Garands and firearms that were used to fight for freedom in wars gone by. Also, if you have rifle that has been passed down by older generations, has sentimental value having been passed down by a deceased relative sorry but that's going in the furnace too. 


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by Grasshoppa Grasshoppa wrote:

Anyone still think this post is a non event?

The Arms Amendment Bill is the first real step to really locking down/restricting all firearms
Is this a bad thing? Probably not if managed well
Is it an over reaction? Maybe not if it stopped at MSSA's

Its already advanced from proposing to ban MSSA's to looking like any centre fire semi auto, nearly all magazine fed semi auto centre fire's have aftermarket 5+ shot mag's available (in catalogs at least) that makes them "modified" by the Bills interpretation

There's been not so quiet whispers that suppressors will be in line not far down the track also
If you think it ends here you're as naive as some of the early comments on this post suggest

I would also suggest the lack of voice from most on this is more about not wanting to attract any unwanted attention than compliance, hence Jackel trying to motivate responsible firearm owners to be heard while they still can

Could be off the mark but thats my 2cents


Thanks Grasshoppa, that's exactly what I'm trying to do-raise awareness before its too late. 


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 6:26pm
BAN TRUCKS and CARS 26 dead in a week

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111813390/tragic-seven-days-on-new-zealand-roads-with-26-deaths-and-many-injured%20" rel="nofollow - www.stuff.co.nz/national/111813390/tragic-seven-days-on-new-zealand-roads-with-26-deaths-and-many-injured


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 7:28pm
I know so many people that now have illegal firearms. Some of those firearms are so far removed from MSSA's it's not funny, but they still lose them.No word on pistols yet? The people they are taking firearms from are not the problem. I'm pretty sure all the gangs, white supremists and other bad guys will hand their stuff in.I'm really sure about that Disapprove

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 7:33pm
All for a register,But why was there not one in place already?? Correct Smudge if the police dont know you have it why would you hand it in??

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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

I know so many people that now have illegal firearms. Some of those firearms are so far removed from MSSA's it's not funny, but they still lose them.No word on pistols yet? The people they are taking firearms from are not the problem. I'm pretty sure all the gangs, white supremists and other bad guys will hand their stuff in.I'm really sure about that Disapprove

Yeah I hear you Smudge, thats what Joe public dont realize (or even care about). I feel sorry for people who dont fish-shooting is their only pastime. And this is only phase one of the government changes. No clear information on compensation for rifles and parts either. 
 


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 7:59pm
PJC a register was in place years ago but it was abandoned, to be fair probably because it was paperbased I think and totally un-reliable. The law decided to register the people rather than the rifles. (Not sure exactly when the change over was, cant remember) The current E cat system requires recording of rifles serial number to a registered E cat rifle owner.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 8:48pm
Jackel, a workmate I went as referee for his E-Cat now has to hand in his unused AR15, possibly his CZ 9mm pistol and he has 500 rounds of .223 ammo. He took me to his pistol club and I saw a new side to him. Super responsible,  super happy with his place in the world and totally at peace. all he wants to do is competition and sports shooting. He is relatively new to NZ and the hobby he is so grateful for has been taken away. He is security plus oriented and I wouldn't have vouched for him otherwise. I feel real sorry for him and those in a similar situation.

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: feeder
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2019 at 7:37am
The paper based register was abandoned by the police as it was very time consuming and they decided that staff were better employed elsewhere, so they took the easy way out and it was a backward step.
 
Smudge is right on the button, the gangs have made it clear they will not conform to the new law and there are plenty of normally law abiding citizens who will take the same course as the gangs.
 
I personally have no mssa firearms, and see no need for them as a hunting piece, others like them, do law abiding citizens have no rights ?
 
Cheers
 
 


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The only bar to frequent is the Kawhia Bar


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2019 at 8:23am
Gangs make clear not conform to the law.. Really?
Withball due respect considering their track record in violence drugs fraud and to 100 others things, why would fire arms be any different?
And it has been the case anyway.

Registration that got dumped around the early mid 80s about the time my licence was to expire.. From memory it wasn't police but the budget required/treasury and NZ near bsnkrupt.. But more the political ideaolgy of the time user pays/market pressues/ and general deregulation of everything, and throw in the American lobbying of the time

The rushed legislation looks like it's doing OK..
High caliber semis for approved regist cullers
Consessions onhistoric collected guns without butchering them.
Consideration for completions.. Recognising the possible loop hole where gun club membership would allow any tom dick or Harry to own.
Note the gun man was a club member.

Most of the submissions and consideration where just re submissions of previous gun laws on record.

Still got reading and final vote to go.. Not doubt will still see some modification.
Mybe rushed but the core information has been on the books for yrs anyway and been thru readings before.
Where balls ups happen with rushed ledgistarion is new ledgistion that has not been thru the ringer the past and not had PM's on the same page due to political ambition
.


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 6:30pm
Quote Steps-Consideration for completions.. Recognising the possible loop hole where gun club membership would allow any tom dick or Harry to own. 
Note the gun man was a club member. 

No, no sporting shooter consideration-Service Rifle-gone. 3 gun-all but gone. Farmers needing to hire in pest control contractors. 

So what if he was a club member, the onus isnt on the clubs to vet the individuals other than from a firearms safety point of view (on the range). It is the role of the government-to make law and it is the role of the police to enforce, not make those laws. 

The B Cat licencing is working well, because the pistols are registered like E Cat but B Cat holders are required to be present for a set number of shoots per annum. Surely, E Cat could have been retained but with these upgraded prerequisites? 

Clearly, multiple rounds of buy-backs hasnt worked in Australia!!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12222272" rel="nofollow - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12222272

Watch this space Steps, its a balls up!! 


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 8:54pm
Yes Jackel you are right. Unfortunately 2.7 million fan boys beat 273000 responsible gun owners. Yes Australia nailed it alright, no shooting there especially last weekend.

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: mike_e
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2019 at 8:32pm
After reading all the replies I think that all trailer boats over 5m should be now prohibited as it makes wholesale fish slaughter too easy not to mention they are unsafe as they go further. Govt will buy back said Items at a yet to be decided value but for now you can no longer use it...................................................................coming soon to a country near you.





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If you can go home and pull a $100 bill out , and flush it down the toilet, and if that doesn't bother you, then go ahead and buy a boat


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 6:38pm
HaHa hand your weapons in and we will look after them,Yeah right.

www.nzherald.co.nz//nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12225566&ref=clavis


Police Minister Stuart Nash is demanding an explanation from police after 11 guns were stolen from a police station.

Police said Alan James Harris, 38, allegedly stole the firearms from the Palmerston North Police Station yesterday morning.

The guns were not police firearms but were being held as exhibits or had been handed in for destruction.

The embarrassing blunder occurred as gun owners are surrendering military-style semi-automatics (MSSAs) and assault rifles around the country as part of a  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12220658" rel="nofollow - Government buyback scheme  which followed the Christchurch mosque shootings.



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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 7:07pm
Hey all, just thought I would post this hoping we can all reach into our wallets and donate to have representation against the unfair process that has taken place, treating lawful firearms owners like criminals, firearm compensation etc. 

https://www.fairandreasonable.co.nz/" rel="nofollow - https://www.fairandreasonable.co.nz/

This has been setup by  https://www.colfo.org.nz/" rel="nofollow - https://www.colfo.org.nz/  

Council of Licenced Firearms Owners. 

I understand the team includes a QC plus:
  • Rachael Dean MNZM – COLFO Council Member, Certified Internal Auditor and Certified Fraud Examiner;

  • Bill O’Leary - Immediate Past President NZDA, Retired Board Member Game Animal Council;

  • David Tipple – Firearms Dealer and Importer


Thanks




Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 7:53am
I am a firearms owner and have a few bolt action rifles, and unfortunately chch changed everything politically its going to be tough now - good idea and good luck!
 
 


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Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 4:05pm
Yeah Mac Skipper the ship has sailed in terms of stopping the buy back, but fair compensation is first on the agenda. An honest representation and a single voice are other aims that they hope to achieve so the public wise up to the fact that taxpayers are buying antiques and historical firearms caught up in the legislation, some of which you cant even buy ammo for. The way things are going bolt actions could be next.....oh and you may be driving to your local hunting area in an electric car!! 


Posted By: jackel
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 4:09pm


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 5:22pm
The big question is.When are the police going to grow some kahunas and tackle the gangs for illegal weapons,why pick on the innocent.

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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 10:12am
Just take a look at the stats.. numbers of arrests, guns, money, assets confiscated, guns confiscated over the last few yrs.

Its not just Hollywood style bust in.. get noting that way.. its longer investigations...when these go down a wide net is pulled in..far more effective the rush and bust.
We dont see all of these hit the papers now, and what we do see are spread out. So the perception is not as high as what really is.

What I never understood is why the amistey did not include non licensed and illegal holders of firearms???
Its the law makers , not the police responsible for that.



Posted By: ET487
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 11:04am


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 9:45am
The difference between the USA and that reference, and NZ has no direct relievence

NZ licenced gun owners don't get guns because of criminals..
The get them as hobby, hunting, recreation and collecting.
This is reflected in only 2 licenced owners using their gun against another in something like 20yrs..and not ms style. Except for march 15.
It is also noticeable that in NZ, those shot by guns laying around (children picking up) have been un licenced..

A far more appropriate 'comparason' would be along the lines of.

Participating in a gun buy back program would be handing in your Lamborghini because some drunk boy racers decide to run from the police because of expired licence killing an inconcent family and by standers

The guns being used, the people using them illegally in NZ are unlicieced, not the targeted banned guns...

Same I'll thought thru legistation as kiwi build, the proposed speed limits around Auckland rural roads..
The latter look at the serious accidents deaths.. They are causes by those driving in a manner.. Drunk/stressed/running from police type of stuff by ppl who are not going to take any notice of a speed sign.
Same sort of populist, not thought thru, stuff trump puts forward.


Posted By: Grasshoppa
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 8:53am
Nah your over reading things again Steps, 

Its relevant enough, short and sharp with a touch of humour to make it interesting, while by comparison it took 3 attempts to finish reading your comparison/post as i kept getting distracted by what the weathers doing outside

Just my opinion tho


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 10:28am
Yeah maybe.. my thought was more someone cruising a NZ outdoors site then jumping on a band wagon taking that comparison and running with it on the basis of guns being protection from criminals..Wink


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 6:07pm


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2019 at 7:29pm


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 9:01am
Hes not going to held accountable cause our PM doesn't hold anyone accountable for anything.....

The issue ... again ...is bloody stupid IT ppl...
Some minion in the contracting company makes
1st idiot mistake... some unauthorized changes to access rules....
2nd idiot mistake...keeps the web site on line while doing so, arrogant enough to think they are good enough to get the coding right
3rd mistake.. doesnt check remotely security etc is correct.. before re publishing.
And this is basically the same issue with the budget screw up
Like I have said several times before.. after 25yrs in the industry...used sales men, politicians.. and 5 steps below IT ppl

The  personal mistake by the minister is not have a multi million dollar penitally clause in the IT companies contract..






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