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Customary Permits

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Category: Saltwater Fishing
Forum Name: The Captain Morgan Briny Bar
Forum Description: The place for general chat on saltwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=129897
Printed Date: 25 Jun 2019 at 2:19am


Topic: Customary Permits
Posted By: feeder
Subject: Customary Permits
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 10:39am
Up until recently I have had no experience with customary permits.
 
To be honest it has been a them and us scenario until I saw the results of one permit for a very small group of families issued for Xmas Dinner festivities.
There are 50 crays, paua, scollies in the pic
 
And the holy grail
I was under the impression Toheroa were a no take spieces, the permit for these was issued for 300, no I did not see the 300 but those on the plate were part of it.
 
We keep hearing about how these people know how to manage the resource, to my mind that is complete bullsh*t.
I was some what annoyed when one of the gathering party was rubbing it into youse honkies how they can do what they like.
 
What do you think.
 
Cheers
 
 
 
 


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The only bar to frequent is the Kawhia Bar



Replies:
Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 12:02pm
Yep,its a rort In its purist form. Permit was most likely issued by a family member too. And yes,toheroa are a no take item,that's what was said when I saw it on Maori TV about 2wks ago.
Things are going to get worse too,believe that.
This country's equality is a joke.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: Mr Moritz
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 12:07pm
Oh well, when the greedies have taken it all, and there is nothing left for anyone, they better not come around to cry on my shoulder.


Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 12:24pm
[QUOTE=Mr Moritz]Oh well, when the greedies have taken it all, and there is nothing left for anyone, they better not come around to cry on my shoulder.

They won't be crying, they will be demanding compensation.


Posted By: MightyBoosh
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by pompey pompey wrote:

They won't be crying, they will be demanding compensation.

Haha! So true! 

My mate got on a customary permit for scallops. Allowed 400 in a day from Whangarei Harbour. What a joke. 


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World's most boring jetski "pilot".


Posted By: spin king
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 12:57pm
Just like the moa, eat em till they are gone


Posted By: Tonto2
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 1:47pm
How can that be? Thought Maori don't believe in Christmas?

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slowly going where everyone else has already been


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 3:17pm
Does that mean - if something in an area is "closed" by MPI - can maori continue to take under "customary" permit?


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 3:55pm
The regular rules do not apply to Customary take. No size limits either. What is the point of having legal sizes for paua/crays etc, when you can take everything.
You don't have to be brown to get a permit either. I know a guy at our end of town that gets one regular - for family gatherings. Undersize crays/paua no problem. Rest of the yr he has to measure like the rest of us.
Regards
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by feeder feeder wrote:


Up until recently I have had no experience with customary permits.
 
To be honest it has been a them and us scenario until I saw the results of one permit for a very small group of families issued for Xmas Dinner festivities.
There are 50 crays, paua, scollies in the pic
 
And the holy grail
I was under the impression Toheroa were a no take spieces, the permit for these was issued for 300, no I did not see the 300 but those on the plate were part of it.
 
We keep hearing about how these people know how to manage the resource, to my mind that is complete bullsh*t.
I was some what annoyed when one of the gathering party was rubbing it into youse honkies how they can do what they like.
 
What do you think.
 
Cheers
 
 
 
 


Just a thought, perhaps they could not find the permitted 300 Toheroa so took all they could find?
Yep. Customary take is a rort.
Especially so with no size limit.
Does make a mockery of New Zealanders of Maori descent claims that they are guardians and custodians of New Zealands natural resources.
Especially marine resources.
I may be wrong, and stand to be corrected, I believe it was New Zealanders of Maori descent that dessimated the Toheroa population up north.
News items showing tractors towing ploughs spring to mind.
I will put money on it, if there is a no take moritorium on Crayfish in the Gulf, customary permits will circumvent that moritorium.


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Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:


Does that mean - if something in an area is "closed" by MPI - can maori continue to take under "customary" permit?


Yes. Not just Maori. Anybody can apply for a customary permit.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

The regular rules do not apply to Customary take. No size limits either. What is the point of having legal sizes for paua/crays etc, when you can take everything.
You don't have to be brown to get a permit either. I know a guy at our end of town that gets one regular - for family gatherings. Undersize crays/paua no problem. Rest of the yr he has to measure like the rest of us.
Regards
Alan


The minimum size must be noted on the permit. If it isn't, rec size limit applies for the area.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:03pm
" Just a thought, perhaps they could not find the permitted 300 Toheroa, so took all they could find ".

Not allowable.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:03pm
But they can prescribe any size - correct?
In which case preserving the future breeding stock is not a consideration.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

The regular rules do not apply to Customary take. No size limits either. What is the point of having legal sizes for paua/crays etc, when you can take everything.
You don't have to be brown to get a permit either. I know a guy at our end of town that gets one regular - for family gatherings. Undersize crays/paua no problem. Rest of the yr he has to measure like the rest of us.
Regards
Alan


The minimum size must be noted on the permit. If it isn't, rec size limit applies for the area.



Legal Scallop size 100mm.
If 50mm is written on permit then that size is acceptable and legal with a customary permit?
So basically no size limit if an arbitrary one can be written down?
Of course, one would hope common sense would prevail.
Maybe not, if it is true that the above mentioned permit allowed for the taking of 300 Toheroa.


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Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:10pm
If an area is closed - eg MPI shut an area down, Customary take still prevails. The permits are to be used in the Iwi/Hapu area they are issued.
So you can't get a permit in Hawkes Bay for a bunch of Kaimoana and take it on holiday with you and use it to plunder the Ngapuhi stocks.
So if your Customary take area is shut down, you still have rights to take whatever. As long as you have a piece of paper issued by your whanau.
Alan
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

But they can prescribe any size - correct?
In which case preserving the future breeding stock is not a consideration.
Alan


Within reason. Rec size limit can be inforced on the issuer.
Eg, issuing permits for paua at 80mm would not be tolerated if legal size paua are available in the area.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

" Just a thought, perhaps they could not find the permitted 300 Toheroa, so took all they could find ".

Not allowable.



"Not allowable", ?????
The permit says they are allowed to take up to 300.
If they can only find 200, 150, or 100 that is all they will take.
How is that not allowable?
Do I have something wrong?

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Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:18pm
Another rort which you probably have not yet considered , goes like this;
Whanua X does not have a permit - but most/all of his crays are undersize. Whanua Y does have a permit - so he transfers them to Y's boat and Y takes them ashore. As long as Y is not stopped by MPI, all the crays go back to X, and Y continues to fish on his permit.
Seen it with my own eyes.
Jeez, yous boys are slow.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:33pm
When these customary permits are written.. given.. is there a record of them
 Also is there a record of what is actually taken.
 And is the take and documentation above, subject to MPI inspection?
And if so where are the records archived, by who? and open to historial inspection as per most other official documents etc?


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

" Just a thought, perhaps they could not find the permitted 300 Toheroa, so took all they could find ".

Not allowable.



"Not allowable", ?????
The permit says they are allowed to take up to 300.
If they can only find 200, 150, or 100 that is all they will take.
How is that not allowable?
Do I have something wrong?


Sorry, I thought you meant swapping out for a different species.
Same as your limit for snapper (7 snp1) if you only catch six, well you only take six.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

When these customary permits are written.. given.. is there a record of them
 Also is there a record of what is actually taken.
 And is the take and documentation above, subject to MPI inspection?
And if so where are the records archived, by who? and open to historial inspection as per most other official documents etc?


Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Local office I think.
Don't know.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

When these customary permits are written.. given.. is there a record of them
 Also is there a record of what is actually taken.
 And is the take and documentation above, subject to MPI inspection?
And if so where are the records archived, by who? and open to historial inspection as per most other official documents etc?
As far as I know - from what I have observed, there is no record of what is taken. I don't think the permit holder has to fill out anything. Just a record if MPI check. They just need to keep within the permit limitations to comply.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Another rort which you probably have not yet considered , goes like this;
Whanua X does not have a permit - but most/all of his crays are undersize. Whanua Y does have a permit - so he transfers them to Y's boat and Y takes them ashore. As long as Y is not stopped by MPI, all the crays go back to X, and Y continues to fish on his permit.
Seen it with my own eyes.
Jeez, yous boys are slow.
Alan


No, we're not slow. Probably a bit unnecessary that comment.
Same theory can apply to all of us, drop the boat in, catch limit, return the catch home. Repeat all day.
I'm merely trying to answer some of the questions risen here. Not providing an opinion, trying to state facts as best I can.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:14pm
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1998/0434/latest/DLM267987.html


Sustainability measures

Any Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki may provide input to and participate in the process of setting or varying sustainability measures, or developing management measures concerning the whole or any part of the area/rohe moana for which that Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki has been appointed.


Records of authorisations

Every Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki appointed under these regulations must keep accurate records of every authorisation granted, and the records must specify full particulars of that authorisation.


Records of fisheries resources taken

Every Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki appointed under these regulations must keep accurate records of the species and quantities of fisheries resources taken by those persons authorised under these regulations to take fish, aquatic life, or seaweed, as advised by those persons under  http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1998/0434/latest/link.aspx?id=DLM268669#DLM268669" rel="nofollow - regulation 38 .




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water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Another rort which you probably have not yet considered , goes like this;
Whanua X does not have a permit - but most/all of his crays are undersize. Whanua Y does have a permit - so he transfers them to Y's boat and Y takes them ashore. As long as Y is not stopped by MPI, all the crays go back to X, and Y continues to fish on his permit.
Seen it with my own eyes.
Jeez, yous boys are slow.
Alan


No, we're not slow. Probably a bit unnecessary that comment.
Same theory can apply to all of us, drop the boat in, catch limit, return the catch home. Repeat all day.
I'm merely trying to answer some of the questions risen here. Not providing an opinion, trying to state facts as best I can.
You probably could "kitno"take out mates for a morning fish and another bunch out straight away providing you werent fishing,cough cough,you have merely provide a vessel to fish from and as long as no cash payment took place,cough cough,there would be no problem??basic illegal chartering. 

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water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Another rort which you probably have not yet considered , goes like this;
Whanua X does not have a permit - but most/all of his crays are undersize. Whanua Y does have a permit - so he transfers them to Y's boat and Y takes them ashore. As long as Y is not stopped by MPI, all the crays go back to X, and Y continues to fish on his permit.
Seen it with my own eyes.
Jeez, yous boys are slow.
Alan


No, we're not slow. Probably a bit unnecessary that comment.
Same theory can apply to all of us, drop the boat in, catch limit, return the catch home. Repeat all day.
I'm merely trying to answer some of the questions risen here. Not providing an opinion, trying to state facts as best I can.

Not quite the same thing as I see it - altho both illegal, obviously.
One relates to taking too many crays (drop the boat in and repeat).
The other relates to using/abusing the permit system to land otherwise illegal sized crays. 
"Eg, issuing permits for paua at 80mm would not be tolerated if legal size paua are available in the area."
I am not sure I can share your optimism here. There is no impetus in the system to conserve stocks. The prime issue at time of writing a permit is to provide (in abundance) for the upcoming hui/birthday etc. So, where 100 legal size crays may do, write the permit for 200, so the undersize can be utilised too 9in case 100 legal can't be gathered in time). And don't forget the cut for the guy writing the permit - so the 200 goes up to 220. This is the reality. Seen it in action.
Regards
Alan
 


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Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:25pm
But it keeps Maori happy,so that throws white privilege out the window,lol.
So much for looking after the fishery for the future eh. Just go out and smash it bro.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: MightyBoosh
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:


Not just Maori. Anybody can apply for a customary permit.


I didn’t know that. How does one go about it? Serious question.

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World's most boring jetski "pilot".


Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:


Not just Maori. Anybody can apply for a customary permit.


I didn’t know that. How does one go about it? Serious question.


Contact your local MPI office or Iwi/Marae.

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Top 10 finish
2020 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 7:45pm
Good luck with that if you live in kawhia lol ,theres no chance I'd rock up to the local marae and ask to take their seafood sorry.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 8:31pm
The treaty needs to scraped,it had a place in time but we have culturally inter mixed through marriage  etc we are all one,by pushing the treaty we are creating division.

As I have stated several times you cannot beat them so join them,register as a Maori and then we are all one,
Maori is indigenous person of the land and as I was born here that therefore makes me a Maori,not European/pakeha etc but that is another can of worms.

The system is open for abuse but what system is perfect?
How many times did we read about poaching by reccs or under reporting by comms??no real difference except one is legal.


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water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 9:02pm
Nvm

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 9:06am
This is a good discussion. I for one have no experience with customary take. Alan L says he's seen rorts going on and I don't doubt that one little bit. Just like all forms of fishing. There will be those who play it straight and those who break the rules.  don't lump all those who participate in customary take in the same basket.

Just a reminder to keep this discussion on track, this good discussion is about customary take, I don't want to see an anti Maori diatribe.

As for Maori wiping out the moa, in European times we have seen many other species wiped out or brought to the edge of extinction. While I am no greenie there are good people in that group too who have worked long and hard to re-establish some of those almost gone species.

One thing that I am not clear on is the question of toheroa. Is it legal or not for them to be taken on a cutomary permit? I think it isn't - but I'm a bit slow today Big smile . I was talking to someone about toheroa the other day, wondering if there will ever be an open season again.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 9:12am
Thanks Kitno...
 As to the other examples digressing.. Im sure people may TRY and find loop holes to jump thru no matter what the subject.
And so often when comes to investigation they eventually get hammered.

 Back to the subject thu.
 We have rec ppl getting checked.. now on a regular basis.. or more often.. and prosecutions, fines..I would suspect more than what is reported in the media..
 And we have comms also get checked , monitored and hit here and there.
But I do not recall anything , in stats from permit data or even the catch authorised  by permit being checked, let alone bring fined/ prosecuted....

Its not just the permit parameters that concern me but the accountability to the NZ  environment sustainability, and the future generations, and the law of the land.


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 9:49am
Two points -
 
1. I havent seen any reporting in media, of irregularities in taking under customary permits - compared to common reporting of irregularities uncovered in recreational and commercial fishing . I assume that either MPI haven't been active in this area, or have "turned a blind eye" to any problems found. Questions should be asked of MPI, as to what checks carried out.
 
2. Anyone observing possible irregularities should tell MPI. Feeder - could you give your observations and pictures to MPI, and ask for an investigation. Even if the take was actually allowed under the law for customary permits, scrutiny would achieve some measure of control over whats going on. If we don't make a complaint, nothing will change.  


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 10:04am
Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:


Two points -
 
1. I havent seen any reporting in media, of irregularities in taking under customary permits - compared to common reporting of irregularities uncovered in recreational and commercial fishing . I assume that either MPI haven't been active in this area, or have "turned a blind eye" to any problems found. Questions should be asked of MPI, as to what checks carried out.
 
2. Anyone observing possible irregularities should tell MPI. Feeder - could you give your observations and pictures to MPI, and ask for an investigation. Even if the take was actually allowed under the law for customary permits, scrutiny would achieve some measure of control over whats going on. If we don't make a complaint, nothing will change.  


The only time I have seen customary permits raised in the media is when some silly individuals got caught savaging the resource and tried claiming Customary take by either getting a back dated permit or using someone else's. Both examples have been in the news and on the TV program.
What would be the point of abusing the catch limits of a permit, if as suggested, they are granted for more than necessary and have a smaller size limit attached.
Does the issuer of the permit have to investigate the gathering and decide whether it is legitimate and the quantity is necessary, or do they just take peoples word on what is required and for why?

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Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 10:14am
old news article  10/11/2001

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=227636%20" rel="nofollow - www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=227636

Far North Maori are flouting customary fishing rules and fighting over who has authority over different stretches of coastline, leaving Ministry of Fisheries staff almost powerless over who can issue permits under Treaty of Waitangi provisions of fishing law.
Endangered toheroa and high-value species such as paua and crayfish are being caught in excess of legal amateur limits, sometimes undersized and with fishing methods for which other New Zealanders would be prosecuted.
A Maori honorary fishery officer on Ninety Mile Beach (Te One Roa) was told to "f *** off, you work for the Pakeha" when he confronted three men gathering toheroa.


What I can gather is Yes they can take toheroa but must be on permit

fyi.org.nz/request/5498/response/18411/attach/html/3/OIA17%200127%20MPI%20OIA%20

Graham Carters request to Mpi  april 2017


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water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 2:26pm
The letter from MPI in response to a request under the OIA, is very revealing. There were 41 customary permits to take Toheroa in the 2 years to April 2017 - all in places where taking Toheroa is otherwise completely prohibited.
 
What a joke. Laws are set to manage and protect seafood stocks - for all, including Maori - and Parliament passed a law that lets one section of society to ignore it.
Customary permits allow maori to take sea food that is disallowed to others - including things that are otherwise completely prohibited (such as Toheroa). And, in numbers exceeding allowed limits, and less than the minimum size allowed (such as under size crayfish, scallops, snapper, etc). In fact anything at all, without redress, provided it has been written on the permit.
 
Basically, the customary permits allow some Maori to get around the law. I doubt that virtually all New Zealanders realize this.  
 
The Herald has been picking and publishing some in-depth issues. Surely this is one. But, how to convince the media to pick this up.
 
Also, possibly some pressure could be applied to MPs. I would have thought Winstone Peters would have stood up for this, but he now appears to have lost his B...ls. Someone in National perhaps might get behind it.


Posted By: yellafin
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 4:12pm
Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire.

Has anyone heard of permits being issued for double the amount applied for. Example 50 crays required for a function and permit issued for 100 crays.

The idea is that the issuer receives the extra bounty as payment for issuing the permit.


I have heard from reliable sources that this happens regularly.




Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 4:18pm
Lay money on it happening, and no doubt the permit issuer sells off the rest. Way to protect the fisheries,lol.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:


The letter from MPI in response to a request under the OIA, is very revealing. There were 41 customary permits to take Toheroa in the 2 years to April 2017 - all in places where taking Toheroa is otherwise completely prohibited.
 
What a joke. Laws are set to manage and protect seafood stocks - for all, including Maori - and Parliament passed a law that lets one section of society to ignore it.
Customary permits allow maori to take sea food that is disallowed to others - including things that are otherwise completely prohibited (such as Toheroa). And, in numbers exceeding allowed limits, and less than the minimum size allowed (such as under size crayfish, scallops, snapper, etc). In fact anything at all, without redress, provided it has been written on the permit.
 
Basically, the customary permits allow some Maori to get around the law. I doubt that virtually all New Zealanders realize this.  
 
The Herald has been picking and publishing some in-depth issues. Surely this is one. But, how to convince the media to pick this up.
 
Also, possibly some pressure could be applied to MPs. I would have thought Winstone Peters would have stood up for this, but he now appears to have lost his B...ls. Someone in National perhaps might get behind it.




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Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by yellafin yellafin wrote:

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire.

Has anyone heard of permits being issued for double the amount applied for. Example 50 crays required for a function and permit issued for 100 crays.

The idea is that the issuer receives the extra bounty as payment for issuing the permit.


I have heard from reliable sources that this happens regularly.


Read my post about 10 above yours. 
I was chided for posting 'opinion' on the permits. For the record, I have not posted ANY opinion. just the facts. And as to your Q, yes - I have seen it happen. So , not opinion, fact.
If you are the guy who has the power to approve permits, you have the means to a guaranteed supply of kaimoana.
Regards
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 7:01pm
Yep I deleted a post cause I'll be labeled racist again. Facts are facts. I'm not fussed if my account is deleted for.posting facts. It is what it is....and I find it racist for "some" to be allowed a permit cause you have to feed a few families at the detrement of others that are too un-native or intimidated to request one. Bollocks.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 8:46pm
Fish Feeder. Go back and read my post. It was pretty much directed at you. There are plenty of ratbags from Maori, Polynesian, Asian, European and commercial backgrounds.Don't turn this into an anti Maori rant.

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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Snappa Geoff
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 6:53am
Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Fish Feeder. Go back and read my post. It was pretty much directed at you. There are plenty of ratbags from Maori, Polynesian, Asian, European and commercial backgrounds.Don't turn this into an anti Maori rant.
Good call Smudge, my two cents worth on the subject. As i live in a very small community we have one permit issuer who grants just as many permits to Pakeha as To Maori over the years for genuine important functions etc. Sure some might take alot more than required, but overall from wot iv'e seen and heard it works fine for everyone here. One Pekeha wedding i attended here over 100 people everyone had a crayfish! We are lucky here as there are very high numbers of Crays but in areas were they are getting scarce i think there should be a limit in permits so in future years theres still some for all.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:02am
Why is it necessary or legal for someone to take 100 crayfish for a wedding? Is that 'customary' or just a cheap way of feeding the guests at the expense of the wider community?


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:07am
I sit in two worlds. I am married to the Customary Permit system, and at the same time am a Legasea Foundation member. The two don't sit easily with me. An earlier post suggested dobbing the breaches in. Not likely on my part - Whanau. But you can discuss the issue with them. Which I have done. Not an easy discussion either. And I find it difficult at the functions where we are feeding on Permit food. It seems un natural to be eating small crays etc. Nothing (in my experience) is measured to any specification. It is either 'big enough' or 'too small'. I can't enjoy them. And the wastage at times is hard to take. Generally not wasted - all dispersed somewhere. But beyond what the permit intended. Although I have heard stories I won't recount here.
Without filling pages here about the discussions, and voicing opinions on them, the best summary I could give is that we operate in two parallel universes - each believing theirs is equally valid. I can see how we ended up with this system, and not an easy fix.
And I don't see a reconciliation of that any time soon.  
Regards
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: yellafin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:07am
Geoff you won't have a high number of crays if that practice continues.


Smudge, I don't think the topic is aimed at being an anti maori rant. I agree that all areas of society have dodgy buggers. It's just that the Moari are in charge of the issue of permits and need to show some respect for the various fisheries rather than fleecing everything they touch..


Posted By: Snappa Geoff
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:45am
Originally posted by yellafin yellafin wrote:

Geoff you won't have a high number of crays if that practice continues.


Smudge, I don't think the topic is aimed at being an anti maori rant. I agree that all areas of society have dodgy buggers. It's just that the Moari are in charge of the issue of permits and need to show some respect for the various fisheries rather than fleecing everything they touch..
Answer yellafin-NO. We are controlled by the weather and the reefs systems are huge and close in to the cliffs. Most of the time you cannot dive and to dangerous to pot because of conditions. Thats why they are so plentiful. Nature protects them. For instance one tiny rock in a reef system where my mates dive may hold a hundred Crays, he will select his six then we go Snapper Fishing. Been there four times with him and only divable once as to dirty from brown water coming out of the rivers made zero visabity. So that also protects them.


Posted By: Garry 23041
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:10am
I have seen the permit thing abused up here by Europeans who know how to get one, over and over. We are talking hundreds of packhorse crays at a shot to name one abuse.

A guy just purchased a section down the road from me and showed up with his huge boat and trailer and massive coolers and went out every single day and I expect with at least 4 on board was able to kill as much fish as he was able as fast as he was able and all legal.
Hes got tons of money a flash as boat and sounder so how does that make him any different than these other guys?





Posted By: Fissure
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:14am
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why is it necessary or legal for someone to take 100 crayfish for a wedding? Is that 'customary' or just a cheap way of feeding the guests at the expense of the wider community?

boom!Clap


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:32am
If customary permits are getting abused, you have to ask what 'Einstein' couldn't have predicted that when they set up the dodgy trust based system in the first place. Whilst I am sure it is well managed by strong individuals in some places, the opportunity for theft to go unmonitored and unpunished will be far too much for many to resist.

Sometime in the future someone really brave might do a study and decide that the system is getting ripped off, then everyone involved will say how surprised and upset they are that our country lost 1000's of tonnes of illegally poached seafood. But that is all that will happen. Lots of PR spin and no useful actions.

Sounds a lot like our commercial fishing QMS really. Designed to fail, completely foreseeable, and no one in power has ever had the balls to fix it.


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:58am
Yep watever smudge. Delete my account if you want. I'm not really fussed eh.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:41am
We have anti polynesian on life jackets.. astata tend to back that up.
 We have anti asian on property.. stata may or maynot back that up debatable but likely
 we have abuse of a 'customary FISHERIES system that by nature of its structure and auditing is open to abuse..back handers. 
 Thats racist?

 Just a side we have FISHERIES customary rights... yet when it comes all other wildlife , as far as I know there is no customary rights... 
ie weka , kea, tui, kaka, kiwi, dolphins, whales, orca.
 And currently there is a move to include many of these into customary rights..

 Either we have customary rights for threatened species or not.
 We should not have customary rights for one section of animals and not another....from thast situation things progress once get a foot in the door to either opening customary right up to everything or closing down for all unsustainable species, sizes etc.


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:49am
 Some have said there are just as many non-maori ripping off our fishing regulations. I have no doubt that is true, but that does not mean it is ok for "customary permits" to be abused.
 
And, saying there is something wrong with a maori privilege, is not racist or an anti-maori rant!


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:55am
But what I've said is racist as smudge said,even though its fact.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 10:41am
The Customary right has nothing to do with conservation or preservation of stocks - no matter what complexion and PR you want to add to it. It is about a basic RIGHT to take stocks from a particular locality. Which is why it prevails, when a fishery is otherwise closed. The origin is rooted in the 1840s when the wise guys then could not have contemplated the issues 180 yrs later.
Outside of Customary there are no rights - just a privilege or permission to take - commercial and amateur- which is reviewable - fishery can be reduced or closed. But not to Customary.
Unless the Iwi administering it decide to do so. That permission to take is controlled by individuals outside the system that is supposedly aimed at conserving the stocks. Experience would suggest - eg Toheroa take, that such action is unlikely in any great form. Therein lies a problem. We have one system supposedly guarding the sustainability of a resource for all - backed supposedly by good science etc. And another system for the same resource that is controlled by individuals for the benefit of their whanau basically, as of right.
How do you solve that? Rorts aside there is a fundamental problem. But yes, the system like all is open to abuse. But with this system it is even more susceptible to rorting - because so much of the rorting is untraceable. Rorting the MPI system is relatively easy to enforce/prosecute if they so choose to do. We routinely are dealing with MPI over our local paua fishery which gets hammered. They have got better, and take us seriously now and respond to a lot of our calls, and their (MPI) catch rate has improved over the last few yrs - as another bootload of undersize paua heads to town. And they do from time to time turn up on our beach and check the boats landing. You either have your quota or less of crays/paua/fish and they either measure up or don't. Black and white.
But how do you detect undersize kaimoana being passed to a permit holder to land ashore, or taking more than required for the permit to satisfy others further down the line etc. Not to mention the sustainability of being able to take 40-50mm crays because the legal ones are hard to find?
But to tackle that would mean interfering with someones Rights. Which undoubtedly would require compensation. But compensation is not what a Customary fisher would be interested in. They want their rights protected, in perpetuity. And that currently is the state of the law.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 11:54am
I get it to some extent when I see and hear how they operate. This stuff is important to them - it is part of their identity as to how they relate to each other etc. Which I suspect is why the rorting goes on as it does. I don't think they see it in the same terms as we might.
but if you look at management of the fishery as a global objective, I don't think the Customary fishing helps. But it is enshrined by something determined before we had to consider such things.
I see weird outcomes in other countries - that to some extent defines who they are. For example I spend a lot of time in Vanuatu. They have a bunch of 'weird' laws - for instance certain jobs can only be held by ni Vanuatu. I can see what they are trying to do, as discriminatory as it is - but it says something about them and the country.
I do suspect this is something as Kiwis we will just need to learn to live with. I don't see any other result really. 
Regards
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why is it necessary or legal for someone to take 100 crayfish for a wedding? Is that 'customary' or just a cheap way of feeding the guests at the expense of the wider community?

Sounds like most of Mokau attended the wedding,  to me it seems appropriate for a coastal community that rely on seafood to celebrate a wedding  with seafood........ would anyone complain if James Packer had married Mariah  Carey in Mokau and  decided to buy 100 crayfish to feed his  100 guests?



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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 12:08pm
Wow,a post deleted that wasn't off tangent,a rant or racist was deleted real fast,lol. You guys are out of hand. Whichever one of you guys wields the ban hammer is welcome to use it on me,I've had enough of the speech police on this joke of a site.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: Snappa Geoff
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why is it necessary or legal for someone to take 100 crayfish for a wedding? Is that 'customary' or just a cheap way of feeding the guests at the expense of the wider community?

Sounds like most of Mokau attended the wedding,  to me it seems appropriate for a coastal community that rely on seafood to celebrate a wedding  with seafood........ would anyone complain if James Packer had married Mariah  Carey in Mokau and  decided to buy 100 crayfish to feed his  100 guests?

You got the part right about most of Mokau attended the wedding Titahi! Quite a few years ago now i must add. Down here it is common to be given a crayfish if your unable to get them yourself or the elderly by the generous people who do dive and pot. I couldn't care less, i'm not a big fan, to me its wasting fishing time if I'm on there boat gathering Crays!                                                                         Steps I'm pretty sure Certain Iwi in Area's can take or use parts of Whales as i know a Top bone carver who gets his whale teeth, Bones for his carving from Iwi.....


Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 1:11pm
[QUOTE=fish-feeder]Wow,a post deleted that wasn't off tangent,a rant or racist was deleted real fast,lol. You guys are out of hand. Whichever one of you guys wields the ban hammer is welcome to use it on me,I've had enough of the speech police on this joke of a site.

I thought I noticed a very reasonable post deleted by V8Coupe. Crazy judgement by whoever controls the censorship button. 
This site has been dying over the last few years and that is a good example of why.


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 1:22pm
Yep it was v8's post that was deleted, but that's the way this site is heading.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: Garry 23041
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 3:07pm
I think that's just it Tagit.

When they were handing out all that quota willy nilly to all and sundry it probably didn't seem like a big deal to do the customary thing in terms of the resource.

Because, as we know there was no consideration given to the resource or environment at all back when all this stuff kicked off.

Now we are left fighting over the scraps It all changes.

In my mind none of it matters until commercial opperators are brought into line by the owners of the fishery (us) and then we need to sort some of this extraneous b.s very quickly.

I bet the commercial intersts love it when we fight amongst ourselves like we do...Divide and concor.


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 3:22pm
There would be nothing wrong with that - providing the purchased crayfish were caught within the quota system. But the 100 served to this wedding, were not within quota.
 
So theres two things wrong -
- first the number taken is not sustainable
- second, they were taken for a part of society and not all. That's not fair. 


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 3:37pm
  Geoffs assertion is that the conditions in Mokau act to protect the fishery, and Im pretty sure he would be the person to know..... I dont see the issue.

Letsgetem, which part of society attended the wedding a few years ago? 

 Other ares with protected calm weather would get hit harder in summer, 

These crayfish where caught with in the legislation, and although outside the QMS are accounted for 


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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 4:13pm
After 30 years of our 'world leading' QMS rec daily limits have plummeted, fisheries are being found to be 'collapsed' nearly every year to the point where emergency actions like massive catch reductions and closures are required. The system is obviously failing the people of NZ in so many ways. A very small number however do very well out of it and appear to be able to influence government policy more than a million plus rec fisherman. Try and figure out how the government can justify that in any way that makes sense.

As for the customary take, I support that small rural/coastal long established Maori communities can have a few extra traditional rights to gather seafood to fed themselves as they have for centuries. I guess this was the original intention, but like any poorly designed legislation the intention was not enforced in the legislation and of course we end up with another system that gets abused because it wasn't designed right.

I see a real parallel between the QMS and the customary permit system. Both have given small interest groups 'rights', (or as it turns out allowed/encouraged them to thieve), beyond what was intended and we don't have (and probably won't have any time soon) a government who is willing to do anything about it. The difference is that the QMS is just WRONG, whilst the customary take does at least have good intentions.

I think the main point here is that the forming of the relevant legistlations was allowed to be hijacked by the interest groups who stood to directly benefit from it. I hope that we learn something from this, but not holding my breath. 


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 4:17pm
Hi all.
The moderators did not delete my post.
I did.
I thought I had wandered off topic and did not want to turn the thread into a slanging match.
Apologies to the moderators for catching the flack for my decision.
Judging by a couple of comments, maybe I should have left it in place.
Therefore apologies to all.
Cheers
Graham


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 4:22pm
Have to admit Graham that I was wondering who you could possibly have offended as it would not be a typical V8 post.Thanks for doing your own 'moderating' and thanks for clearing that up so those offended by the 'moderation' understand what happened.


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 4:32pm
Well I stand corrected and apologise accordingly saying mods deleted it. I also deleted a post as to not have the thread go off tangent,but I still stand by my comments. The customary allowance is a rort,and the permit system is an open door to 99% of those that use them. Its also an open gate for the horse that's about to bolt and cause this country a whole lot of butt hurt.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

  Geoffs assertion is that the conditions in Mokau act to protect the fishery, and Im pretty sure he would be the person to know..... I dont see the issue.

Letsgetem, which part of society attended the wedding a few years ago? 

 Other ares with protected calm weather would get hit harder in summer, 

These crayfish where caught with in the legislation, and although outside the QMS are accounted for 



Thanks.
So seafood taken under a customary permit is removed from customary quota?
If this is not correct, how is it accounted for if it is outside the QMS and where is it removed from?
How does that work for Toheroa which basically started this thread.
I believe there is no quota for Toheroa or I could not find one.
Toheroa are a no take item for everyone as they were on the edge of extinction?
From the MPI website: -
Taking of Toheroa: - Daily limit "prohibited".
"Toheroa must not be taken, possessed, or disturbed unless an open season is declared by the
Director-General of the Ministry for Primary Industries"
Except for New Zealanders of Maori descent with a customary permit it seems.
These customary permits must supercede and void the law in this situation.
Correct?


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 5:06pm
V8 just o clear up your confusion, you do not need to be of Maori descent to obtain a customary permit. Just pop down to your local Marae, and have a chat with the Rununga, ( committee) to see who holds the permits, if you can show a link to the area and give a valid reason for collection you have a decent chance of obtaining a permit.
The customary take is outside the QMS, however the reason permit issuers have to maintain a record of permits issued and relevant information is so totals can be tallied and if necessary MPI can talk with the Rununga  about managing an area.

Iwi arent interested in decimating a fishery, thats why rahui are placed on areas, and rouge permit issuers are sorted out by iwi, you wont hear bout this, cause its an internal matter, but it does happen.

Statements like "scrap the treaty" are ill informed, its legally binding, and would require both sides to agree, just like any other legally binding contract.



 


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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 5:15pm
Why are rouge permit issuers dealt with "internally" ,shouldn't they have to face up to MPI as anyone else would have to? Two laws for two peoples,which is a "rort" pure and simple.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: Snappa Geoff
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 5:26pm
Think I'll stick with Catch Reports! gone in the to hard basket for me to understand. Here's one for ya though, lets say someone or a few fisho's  gather and freeze 100 Crays legally over a period of time without a permit and when the wedding day is due out they come?


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 5:27pm
No they shouldnt, its an internal matter for the Iwi to address, as they are the prescribed body who dictate the permits, the issuer is an agent of that process, and they have the right to address it as they see fit.

 Fish feeder,You constant *****ing  betrays your agenda, you dont need to beg to be banned from this  " joke of a site" you can always adult up and leave.


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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 5:57pm
Haha yeah OK mate. I'm allowed an opinion,and I don't really give a tutai if you like it or not. Did I hit a soft spot or something mate,lol. What's my agenda? Are you going to call me racist too? If you don't like what I have to say,don't read my posts. The point I made is valid. Permit issuers get sorted out "internally", yeah OK....double standards much?

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 5:58pm
So we are discussing Customary rights,which was part of the treaty,back then who would of thought our fisheries would end up in such a state as to non sustainable.

The big picture is,Maori have not decimated the fisheries but non Maori commercial activities have,so one hand we are moaning(I included)about the taking of a protected shellfish and undersize cras etc Yet on the other hand we(not necessary you and I)have plundered a once thriving fishery through commercial greed.
We cannot have it both ways.


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water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

V8 just o clear up your confusion, you do not need to be of Maori descent to obtain a customary permit. Just pop down to your local Marae, and have a chat with the Rununga, ( committee) to see who holds the permits, if you can show a link to the area and give a valid reason for collection you have a decent chance of obtaining a permit.
The customary take is outside the QMS, however the reason permit issuers have to maintain a record of permits issued and relevant information is so totals can be tallied and if necessary MPI can talk with the Rununga  about managing an area.

Iwi arent interested in decimating a fishery, thats why rahui are placed on areas, and rouge permit issuers are sorted out by iwi, you wont hear bout this, cause its an internal matter, but it does happen.

Statements like "scrap the treaty" are ill informed, its legally binding, and would require both sides to agree, just like any other legally binding contract.



 



Thank you.
Not much chance of me doing this, however I will supply an example.
I rent in Howick, Auckland.
Not much chance of Toheroa around these shores.
However, when I was a nipper in Wellington, we used to head up to Paraparaumu, collect Toheroa and Pipi then drive back down to Paremata and collect a few Cockles.
If I went down for a vist on my birthday, contacted the local Marae, do you think I would succeed in gaining a permit?
Or even if I headed up Dargiville way.
Do you think I would be succesful there?
I think "showing a link to the area" could/would probably rule the majority out.
Thoughts?


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 6:01pm
Well, to be fair, it is the Iwi who would be appointing those to do the permits, so logically they would be the ones to determine if someone is not up to the job?
MPI I think have a list of those appointees.
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 6:19pm
V8 I think you would have every chance of success with Ngati Toa, especially as you can explain you did this as a child in their Rohe ( area).

Chances are they would give you a permit for pippi's and Cockles,Taheroa might be a different matter given the fishery on the coast is non existent. They where wiped out by the  commercial cannery that operated out of Levin.

Dargaville you would need to see the local Iwi and I suspect show a link to the area. bear in mind that they may well hold different  views on gathering Taheroa.......

 The key point is "Customary" 

I have obtained a few permits over the years, and am European with no Maori lineage, I gathered seafood for a funeral of elderly Maori man who had lived in the area for 80 years and commercially fished since the age of 14, The permit was issued on the basis that I was supplying seafood to a gathering that was appropriate to customary practices, the permit dictated the area sea food is to be gathered from, the sizes, species and quantities and the location and time of the function. 


Fishfinder just cause you say your point is  valid doesn't make it so, and no soft spot touched, I am just intolerant of idiots.





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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 6:32pm
Load of **** titahi,I've been threatened at baylys beach for taking tuatua,had my shellfish taken from me and told not to be seen on the beach again,fact. That gives me incentive to roll up and ask for a permit eh,I don't think so,only an idiot would do that.
Your name calling shows your underlying mentality to be honest. Why don't you adult up a bit yourself ;)

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by fish-feeder fish-feeder wrote:

Wow,a post deleted that wasn't off tangent,a rant or racist was deleted real fast,lol. You guys are out of hand. Whichever one of you guys wields the ban hammer is welcome to use it on me,I've had enough of the speech police on this joke of a site.

Well it wasn't me but your wish is my command. See you around in a couple of weeks. Go cool your heels.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

V8 I think you would have every chance of success with Ngati Toa, especially as you can explain you did this as a child in their Rohe ( area).

Chances are they would give you a permit for pippi's and Cockles,Taheroa might be a different matter given the fishery on the coast is non existent. They where wiped out by the  commercial cannery that operated out of Levin.

Dargaville you would need to see the local Iwi and I suspect show a link to the area. bear in mind that they may well hold different  views on gathering Taheroa.......

 The key point is "Customary" 

I have obtained a few permits over the years, and am European with no Maori lineage, I gathered seafood for a funeral of elderly Maori man who had lived in the area for 80 years and commercially fished since the age of 14, The permit was issued on the basis that I was supplying seafood to a gathering that was appropriate to customary practices, the permit dictated the area sea food is to be gathered from, the sizes, species and quantities and the location and time of the function. 


Fishfinder just cause you say your point is  valid doesn't make it so, and no soft spot touched, I am just intolerant of idiots.





Cheers.
Ahhh, Ngati Toa.
Used to play Softball against them.
May have a chance of a permit as some of the players may be considered elders now.

take care.


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:

 Some have said there are just as many non-maori ripping off our fishing regulations. I have no doubt that is true, but that does not mean it is ok for "customary permits" to be abused.
 
And, saying there is something wrong with a maori privilege, is not racist or an anti-maori rant!

I agree entirely LGE. Nothing wrong with challenging the law and I have bucket loads of time for people on this site and appreciate their views.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Grasshoppa
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:32pm
This has been highly entertaining to follow, 

Who's laffing now bottom feeder/chuckyLOL


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by Grasshoppa Grasshoppa wrote:

This has been highly entertaining to follow, 

Who's laffing now bottom feeder/chuckyLOL

Thanks! Big smile


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: ChuckyD
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:38pm
I have apologised for my ****ty comments to smudge and will also to titahi. I was out of line and am happy to wear the shet thrown at me. Sorry boys.
On that note, see you guys later.


Posted By: White snake
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:41pm
Interesting thread.one of my mates who happens to live on a dead end road on one of the busiest paua gathering areas of our coastline went along to a meeting at the local marae.After expressing his concerns regarding the absolute desamation of the paua stocks by people with and without customary permits, he was granted the right to give out permits to those that requested one if he thought their reasons were genuine.This guy is white as it gets but I think the elders at the local marae thought someone who wasint related to most of the permit applicants would make a more informed decision
Just thought i would share as this would be a very rare case i would think


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by ChuckyD ChuckyD wrote:

I have apologised for my ****ty comments to smudge and will also to titahi. I was out of line and am happy to wear the shet thrown at me. Sorry boys.
On that note, see you guys later.

all good FF but 2 weeks in the cooler anyways. Thanks for the apology


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by White snake White snake wrote:

Interesting thread.one of my mates who happens to live on a dead end road on one of the busiest paua gathering areas of our coastline went along to a meeting at the local marae.After expressing his concerns regarding the absolute desamation of the paua stocks by people with and without customary permits, he was granted the right to give out permits to those that requested one if he thought their reasons were genuine.This guy is white as it gets but I think the elders at the local marae thought someone who wasint related to most of the permit applicants would make a more informed decision
Just thought i would share as this would be a very rare case i would think

Thats very cool WS, thanks for that


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 2:48am
Hey fish finder, thanks for the apology, as for your PM, I never stated your racist, stirring perhaps.......  

 Anywho see you on the flip side


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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 7:49am
Originally posted by White snake White snake wrote:

Interesting thread.one of my mates who happens to live on a dead end road on one of the busiest paua gathering areas of our coastline went along to a meeting at the local marae.After expressing his concerns regarding the absolute desamation of the paua stocks by people with and without customary permits, he was granted the right to give out permits to those that requested one if he thought their reasons were genuine.This guy is white as it gets but I think the elders at the local marae thought someone who wasint related to most of the permit applicants would make a more informed decision
Just thought i would share as this would be a very rare case i would think
Well congrats to both of them - Pakeha and Iwi. You can just hope it works out OK for both of them. A Pakeha administering traditional Maori fishing rights - I do see problems ahead.
We have a member of the local Constabulary who camps at our beach for several weeks over Xmas every yr. here now. He refuses to intervene when the bags of paua get dragged across the beach in front of his caravan. Doesn't want his caravan burnt down.
Regards
Alan


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 9:36am
From the awful stories recounted about abuse of fisheries, it appears to me, that many, if not all, mataitai (customary food gathering areas), will be seriously depleted - so that permit holders wont be able to get the same numbers of seafood.
 
Then what will they do? Unfortunately, some will turn their attention to areas outside, and continue the pillaging illegally with or without customary permit.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 10:49am
Ive been researching these Mataitais -
 
1 they are established under the Fisheries (Kaimoana Customary Fishing) Act 1998
shown here http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1998/0434/latest/whole.html" rel="nofollow -
2. current Mataitais are shown on maps at
http://www.nabis.govt.nz/Map.aspx?Layer=Rohe%20Moana%20Boundaries" rel="nofollow - http://www.nabis.govt.nz/Map.aspx?Layer=Rohe%20Moana%20Boundaries
 
Appears roughly to be about 40% of the NI coast is Mataitai. Many (not all) go right out to the 12nm territorial limit.
 
There are none in the South island - that's odd, I am not aware of why this is. Anyone know? Not as greedy down there? 
 
3. a Mataitai can be applied for by a maori iwi. The minister (of Fisheries), must consult the local community, and can decide to grant or not the application. One ground for declining a Mataitai is -

unreasonably prevent persons taking fish, aquatic life, or seaweed for non-commercial purposes within the fisheries management area or quota management area to which the mātaitai reserve relates.

3. the iwi can set its own bylaws about what can be taken (numbers, size etc). Bylaws are subject to approval by the Minister.

4. bylaws apply to all persons - ie members of the iwi must be treated the same as others. So - the Mataitai can not be used to prevent others from fishing there.
 
BUT - there is big loophole, as the iwi  
"may authorise the taking of fisheries resources to continue for the purpose of sustaining the functions of a marae, despite any bylaws. So, for example, a bylaw could prohibit taking, but the local iwi could still take for the marae.

5. "A person commits an offence against these regulations if the person takes fish, aquatic life, or seaweed in circumstances to which these regulations apply, whether from a New Zealand fishing vessel or otherwise, unless— (a) either—

(i)that person has been authorised, and is in possession of an authorisation, to take fish, aquatic life, or seaweed, which authorisation has been granted by a Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki under http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1998/0434/latest/whole.html#DLM268637" rel="nofollow -

6. Phew! Im left with one huge question - is it legal to take in a Mataitai without a customary permit?? It says, "circumstances to which these regulations apply", but that's not defined. And, customary oermits are described    'for customary food gathering purposes" On the face of it, it appears that if one is fishing NOT for customary food gathering purposes, its legal. But I may be wrong - - I will ask MPi for clarification.

Its a huge can of worms.



Posted By: Titahi
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 12:23pm
Yes it is illegal , a permit cannot be isued retrospectively.
I recall a case where the gathers  where caught and tried to say they had a permit, then tried to have one writteen retrospectively, but where told they had broken the law and the permit issuer would not be a party to their scheme.



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"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"


Posted By: MightyBoosh
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 12:26pm
One country, two systems (in practice at least, if not in theory). It's not going to end well.

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World's most boring jetski "pilot".


Posted By: corosanta
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 3:48pm
Am I correct in assuming that the Comm. fishers are prevented from, and indeed could not be bothered to, apply for Customary Rights?

So now while every man moans about the Comm take, we have a massive hole that allows the Rec. guys to wipe-out entire fisheries.

Brilliant!


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Sitndrinkntalknbullman


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 3:59pm
Yes it is a hole, but not yet one that is proven to wipe out fisheries unless it is abused. If it is used as intended the fishery should be sustainably harvested. That is part of the whole idea. So really the abusers are in the same camp as the comms that illegally dump fish or the rec guys that take more than their limit etc. They all need to get caught and punished. 

The current issue seems to be that the monitoring of the customary take might be much 'lighter' than the monitoring of rec catches and lighter than even the very small monitoring that goes into our inshore commercial fleet.There also seems to be areas where 'intimidation' is affecting the control of illegal fishing and not a lot seems to be getting done about it.

Customary take is allowed for under the setting of the TAC and TACC so it is not a hole unless catch goes unreported. A bit like the Hawkes Bay Fisheries guys maybe who 'forgot' to report 1000's of tonnes of catch and weren't quite sure how to differentiate one type of fish from another. In other words, we need better enforcement and monitoring in many places.


Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 4:22pm
Interesting thread, but what it boils down to is that some people administer customary permits well while some abuse the system.

Like many things, it seems like a good idea in principal but doesn't always work in practice.  It would be an unbelievably brave politician who thought they could improve the current system though.  Political suicide I should think.



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