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Foreshore and Seabed - first deal?

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Category: Saltwater Fishing
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Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 3:12pm


Topic: Foreshore and Seabed - first deal?
Posted By: Tagit
Subject: Foreshore and Seabed - first deal?
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2018 at 4:01pm
http://gisborneherald.co.nz/localnews/3486798-135/next-stage-in-ngati-porous-foreshore" rel="nofollow - http://gisborneherald.co.nz/localnews/3486798-135/next-stage-in-ngati-porous-foreshore

Anyone know what sort of 'rights' are being transferred as part of this deal. Didn't even know this was happening until I stumbled across an article about it today.



Replies:
Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 10:00am
I understand this is the only Maori claim to special rights over the shore and sea, that was agreed to under the old Labour government foreshore and seabed Act. It had not been ratified by parliament, when Labour got turfed by National and the Maori party. It was progressed by National, but not finally (probably because they thought they might get more under nationals new Marine and Coastal Act ; and then (9 years later), Labour got back in again, and they have progressed the bill that (a) offers Ngati Porou rights to the coast, and (b) also lets them apply for anything they might like under the new MACA. Phew!
I have looked at this Act (since repealed), and it would take a super-human to make any sense of it! I can not find any right to propose or enforce any regulations over taking of sea life. It does not provide power to veto resource consent applications. It does allow charging for customary activities (eg selling sea life). It does provide power to exclude anyone from areas designated "Wahi Tapu" (sacred).
 
The later MACA, provides additionally the power to veto resource consents; but still does not allow regulating taking of sea-life (except in Wahi Tapu sacred areas). 
 
There is another Act "Fisheries (Kaimoana Customary Fishing) Regulations 1998
that provides power to set regulations over taking of sea life (subject to approval by a Minister). There are a few "mataitai" areas established under this Act, called Rohe Moana - they are shown at

http://www.nabis.govt.nz/Map.aspx?Layer=Rohe%20Moana%20Boundaries" rel="nofollow -

Its a huge mess. I challenge anyone to understand what is happening and what it actually means in practice.
 
Even though it appears this Ngati Porou application does not actually give them much power over others - remember that they can push for more power in future. I believe that is the major threat - once getting recognition to a "title" to the area, there will be an on-going political push for greater power, until eventually you will not be allowed to go in there, full stop! How did that happen? we will say - because we did not stand up and object at the start.
 
Reflect on one thing - this Labour government (with collusion from NZ First and Greens), has allowed the Ngati Porou application to be considered by their maori affairs select committee. What a rort, that's like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse! obviously they will rubber stamp it, ignoring objections.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 12:29pm
It seemed strange when I tried to understand the article. Lots of backwards and forwards about F&S vs MACA etc. One thing you can be sure of is that if this group get any 'desirable' special rights under this deal there will be a whole lot of other groups wanting to go to court to prove that they should get the same deal. Like a first wee leak in the dam wall if this government doesn't manage it properly. 

I would love to think that all of this would lead to be better managed fisheries and better eco-systems etc but a 14 year old boy getting shot at while surfing last week tends to suggest that we should expect otherwise once any sense of 'ownership' applies. This is likely going to become a very divisive part of NZ's future instead of the 'healing process' that the government is trying to portray. Helen Clark recognised that, so why can't the current generation of political leaders.


Posted By: Clifftastic
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 3:06pm
Tagit, I think the door has closed and the MACA are only considering the applications filed in time - prior to April 2017. 

Although the process might be long - 385 applications received to the Crown and 202 to the High Court - no further groups can get in for the same deal as it is all about proving you have exclusive and historically used the area since 1840. 


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 4:11pm
Nearly 600 applications, Can you imagine how many $100's of millions that is going to cost the country to process. Every man & his dog filing for everything they can think of. Just trying to sort these down to the few cases that should be properly considered under the stupid laws that were written will takes years, cause massive social issues, and cost a ridiculous amount of money that could be going into social support that actually might improve a few lives. All that before you even start dealing with the potentially real cases.

Imagine how many groups will have already convinced themselves of the rightness of their cause and that they already own the areas they are trying to claim. Whole thing is just very scary.


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 6:44pm
Simple fact is....wait for it...




Two laws for us and them.
So much for "we are one people" treaty tripe talk.
Its a sad reality but its fact,its happening and its going to get a lot worse. Glad it wasn't my son that was shot at...and the gutless sods that shot at the boy would be even happier it wasnt my son. We should have a different law system for those that think NZ law doesn't apply cause they don't recognise the current rules of law.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: CrayZfish
Date Posted: 10 May 2021 at 12:35pm
Its started, wait now for the flood of court cases giving more rights to some than others to our coastline. The fact there were 12 other claims to the same area should have made all claims of exclusive and continuous use since 1840 Null and Void. But nope.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/whakatohea-hapu-win-customary-marine-title-case/RDOSSVK3OATD6APOOLKSVIXRYI/" rel="nofollow - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/whakatohea-hapu-win-customary-marine-title-case/RDOSSVK3OATD6APOOLKSVIXRYI/

"The court has found that territorial local authorities providing resource consents to people to use foreshore and seabed doesn't extinguish Māori ownership and rights to the same foreshore and seabed subject of that resource consent," she said.

Who's area is next...

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Why choose either diving or fishing when you can do both. Besides crayfish tail is very good bait!!


Posted By: kaveman
Date Posted: 10 May 2021 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by fish-feeder fish-feeder wrote:

Simple fact is....wait for it...




Two laws for us and them.
So much for "we are one people" treaty tripe talk.
Its a sad reality but its fact,its happening and its going to get a lot worse. Glad it wasn't my son that was shot at...and the gutless sods that shot at the boy would be even happier it wasnt my son. We should have a different law system for those that think NZ law doesn't apply cause they don't recognise the current rules of law.


I see you said this in 2018 fish feeder
How correct you seem to have been


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www.kavemantackle.co.nz


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 10 May 2021 at 4:08pm
They have to allow public access but for how long??They will work with commercial fishers,you catch we will take koha,This is only a start.As said now Labour is Governing alone whats next??
Give it 10/20 yrs we will have reverse apartied.

Wait already starting with a seperate health board.


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 10 May 2021 at 4:43pm
10-20 years is a bit optimistic.


Posted By: Big -Dave
Date Posted: 10 May 2021 at 4:48pm
It's not "if", it's "when".
I am so heartily sick of seeing special privelige being given to a small group here, who are apparently disadvantaged.
The disadvantage they have comes from the way of life their families have adopted. The lack of appreciation of the values of education and hard work.
Now in my mind, the biggest disadvantaged group is European men. There is virtually no support systems in place for them, no special grants if they don't achieve at school, no reserved places just for euro men on courses, literally no recognition of the statistics of men being the victims of domestic abuse, nobattered men's shelters..and the suicide stats speak for much of this, yet apparently they are "priveliged"

Back on topic, how long until 95%are working for the benefit of this minority group, who won't step up and own their own issues and history, and stump up money to fix them.

Rant over.

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you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 10 May 2021 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

They have to allow public access but for how long??They will work with commercial fishers,you catch we will take koha,This is only a start.As said now Labour is Governing alone whats next??
Give it 10/20 yrs we will have reverse apartied.

Wait already starting with a seperate health board.

We have all accepted separatism and apartheid under the guise of positive discrimination for decades now. 
There are many old and irrelevant Maori spiritual values and practices which have been inserted into and have an effect on every ones daily lives.
Usually with a financial tithe attached.
Why are you surprised at this latest move?
We already have separate educational systems, separate sports systems/teams, separate TV channels, separate radio stations, different qualification marks for university complete with designated seats available, different tax regimes for Treaty settlements, a raced based Tribunal financed by the taxpayer, a minister for Maori affairs and a racially based political party et al.
They have also just added compulsory Maori tikanga to all core legal courses which is already in teaching and medicine.
This Labour Government is hatching a plan for separatism in all aspects of Government with New Zealanders of Maori descent having the power of veto over everything.
They would like to have this plan implemented by 2040.
That is approx. 15% of the population having at least 50% say and demands on resources with the power of a final veto over the rest.
Does that sound like a partnership?
This is the result of misrepresenting the Treaty as a partnership and no one having the cajones to stand up and say enough is enough.
Apparently Labour are just carrying on with what National signed us up to with the UN and it indigenous peoples policy.
Ironic considering early Maori were colonizers and had to lobby the UN to achieve the title of indigenous.
Almost forgot, we are also going to have to put up with a very heavily biased history curriculum.
The fun is just beginning.


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Legasea Legend Member


Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 8:09am
I'm not even going to say what I think the end game is....it's pretty self evident if you look at the basics. All the "be less white" agenda based media that's happening in different countries,does it sound familiar now?.

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dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.


Posted By: CrayZfish
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 12:38pm
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/consents-flood-in-iwi-want-money-and-standing-from-taranaki-regional-council/A3ZCC5S5CJQIQ5ZABBGUBOAQTQ/" rel="nofollow - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/consents-flood-in-iwi-want-money-and-standing-from-taranaki-regional-council/A3ZCC5S5CJQIQ5ZABBGUBOAQTQ/
 
More from our no1 newspaper. Soon to be Iwi partnership in every authority, and then the money trail will follow.
 
"No disrespect to the relationship of existing iwi and hapū with some specific Taranaki Regional Council officers, however at a strategic and at a governance level this relationship is lacking."
 
"Tuuta said Te Ātiawa would prefer the council to see the iwi and its hapū and marae as partners to achieve better outcomes, rather than just a group it has to consult."
 


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Why choose either diving or fishing when you can do both. Besides crayfish tail is very good bait!!


Posted By: Derek F
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 5:02pm
Frantically searching for a black sheep in my family history somewhereSmile

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And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more...Erica Jong


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Derek F Derek F wrote:

Frantically searching for a black sheep in my family history somewhereSmile

I have mates who done that to their kid's advantage. Financially comfortable hospital doctors who have zero interest in all things Maori apart from distant family history. It highlights how ridiculous race-based laws are more worryingly, the advantage isn't going where it is really needed. I don't blame the individuals, I blame the system.


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Originally posted by Derek F Derek F wrote:

Frantically searching for a black sheep in my family history somewhereSmile

I have mates who done that to their kid's advantage. Financially comfortable hospital doctors who have zero interest in all things Maori apart from distant family history. It highlights how ridiculous race-based laws are more worryingly, the advantage isn't going where it is really needed. I don't blame the individuals, I blame the system.
Correct.
That is why those New Zealanders of Maori descent who have taken advantage of all New Zealand as to offer and done well are staying silent as they will now have double the options for advancement/help than the other approx 85% of the country. 


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Legasea Legend Member


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 5:51pm
If we all identify as Maori can they object?
And if they do so well they look like hypocrites.
It is well worth considering....


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

If we all identify as Maori can they object?
And if they do so well they look like hypocrites.
It is well worth considering....

I already consider myself Tangata Whenua as I am a 5th generation New Zealander with access to no other passport apart for the New Zealand one. Unlike many New Zealanders of Maori descent who travel on foreign passports. Usually British. Ironic aye?



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Legasea Legend Member


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Derek F Derek F wrote:

Frantically searching for a black sheep in my family history somewhereSmile
dead easy.vusit tuhono site.fill form in and presto.i am Tainui and on Hauraki Electrol roll.cannot beat them so join them.oh you are helping to pay for my boys uni at Auckland in the medical field. And they send you a card with a number All good bro


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 7:39pm
Ironic yeah but I say good on them 😂


Posted By: Big -Dave
Date Posted: 11 May 2021 at 9:53pm
I'm struggling with how 1/64th of you can be Maori , and the rest dosent matter?
But I guess it goes with how 5% of the population gets so much priveligeat the expense of the rest.

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you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 14 May 2021 at 9:38am
The High Court Judge (Churchman), took no notice of the Acts requirements; but came up with his own ideas that obviously were biased. NOt surprising, as he had been acting for Maori interests previously.
This will set a precedent that Judges usually follow (like sheep).  It must be appealed. 

Please make a donation towards legal costs (being organised by NZ Centre for Political Research)- 

credit ASB Bank NZCPR account: 12-3099-0833814-00


Posted By: CrayZfish
Date Posted: 19 May 2021 at 2:49pm
Scary stuff people. Tribal ownership coming to a beach near you...If you cannot support this cause via donation, but believe in it, the least you can do is share the pants off this.


Here is an update on the coastal claims process including the bombshell ruling on the first of the 200 claims lodged in the High Court under the Marine and Coastal Area Act.

As you are probably aware, Justice Churchman has now released his decision on the Edwards case, which centred on a 44 km stretch of Bay of Plenty coastline around Opotiki and involved fifteen different tribal groups.

As you may recall, the section 58 test for a Customary Marine Title had two main parts – it firstly required claimants to “hold the specified area in accordance with tikanga” and, it specified that they must also “have exclusively used and occupied the area without substantial interruption from 1840 to the present day”.

In other words, Parliament clearly intended that to qualify for title to the coast any tribal groups with a customary interest in a coastal area that dated back to 1840 had to prove they had retained ‘exclusive’ (not ‘shared’) control of their area right up to the present day - without substantial interruption. It was expected that few claimants would satisfy such a stringent requirement, and as a result, only pockets of the coast would be awarded to tribal interests.

Justice Churchman’s decision, however, has overturned these expectations by elevating ‘tikanga’ - Maori custom – above common law and western property right considerations. Essentially he maintains that if tribal applicants can show they have had held their claimed area according to their own customary values, then the requirements associated with the second leg of the section 58 tests of exclusive use and occupation, don’t really apply.

Tikanga, he claims, is a ‘sharing’ culture, and so by custom, neighbouring tribal groups and third parties would not have been ‘excluded’ from tribal areas but ‘welcomed’.

Using this approach, Justice Churchman justifies the adoption of the Canadian concept of “shared exclusivity” to enable the awarding of “joint” orders to deal with the problem of overlapping claims. He has further ruled that if anything represents a substantial interruption in a claimed area, like wharves, mussel farms, or other significant third party use, this would not prevent the awarding of customary title – instead, the source of the ‘interruption’ would simply need to be excluded from the title.

If this approach is applied to the 200 other claims in the High Court pipeline – and the 300 waiting for Crown Engagement, it is difficult to think of any area of New Zealand where tribal groups would not succeed in gaining customary title – including popular beaches.

In the Edwards case, the Judge awarded three Customary Marine Titles covering the whole claimed area out to the edge of the Territorial Sea, two of which are ‘joint’ titles to be shared between multiple claimants with the spoils divvied up between them.

Without a doubt, if this judgement is not appealed, the whole of New Zealand’s coastline and Territorial Sea will end up under tribal control.

It must be appealed.

So, what are the options?

Under ‘normal’ circumstances, since the Judge rejected almost all of the Attorney General’s arguments, and the whole coast is now at risk of a tribal takeover, the Office of the Attorney General would almost certainly appeal Justice Churchman’s ruling to the Court of Appeal.

However, in this current climate where the Government appears to be advancing a separatist agenda, they may not appeal, or if they do, it may only be a token gesture.

As you know, we supported a community group, the Landowners Coalition, to oppose the claims in the public interest. They and the Attorney General were the only voices in opposition.

The Landowners Coalition is the only other potential appellant, but their involvement has to be contingent on significant fundraising, not only to cover the costs of litigation, but also, and most importantly, any adverse costs award.

Having talked with the Coalition’s legal team, our favoured approach is as follows - if the Attorney General doesn’t appeal the case, the Landowners Coalition will do so in the public interest. If the Attorney General does appeal the case, the Landowners Coalition will apply to join and strengthen the appeal.

However, once again, it all depends on whether there is sufficient financial backing.

Given that there are only twenty working days in which to lodge an appeal, we have now launched a fundraiser.

If you, or anyone you know who is concerned about this matter, would like to help, the donation page link is here: http://www.nzcpr.com/fundraiser-donation-page" rel="nofollow - www.nzcpr.com/fundraiser-donation-page - and the internet banking account details are ASB Bank NZCPR claims fundraiser account: 12-3099-0833814-52

I have attached the Judgement and a copy of Muriel’s latest newsletter which explains the background and details of this dreadful development, for your interest.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you have any queries or suggestions.

Thank you for your interest and support.

Katrina Jensen
Coastal Claims Project Manager
[email protected]
http://www.nzcpr.com" rel="nofollow - www.nzcpr.com


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Why choose either diving or fishing when you can do both. Besides crayfish tail is very good bait!!


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 19 May 2021 at 5:11pm
This is what happens when judges become activists and want to be part of “social justice” causes. Instead of just applying the laws that exist.


Posted By: CrayZfish
Date Posted: 24 May 2021 at 10:05am
Minister of the treaty of Waitangi, Andrew Little stated this morning on Newstalk ZB the crown would not be placing an appeal on Justice Churchman’s decision. Citing there was nothing leftfield in the case and everything that he expected to happen, happened.

O well, thats it then the next 348 or so cases before court will now roll through without restriction seeing as the precedent has been set.


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Why choose either diving or fishing when you can do both. Besides crayfish tail is very good bait!!


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 24 May 2021 at 5:05pm
No surprises there.


Posted By: CrayZfish
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 3:33pm
Deadline for submissions is at 5pm today.

I have submitted the below, please if you can copy and paste or write your own blurb, send to email address of the Attorney General the Hon David Parker is [email protected]



Good afternoon.

I am writing in support of a majority of New Zealanders who wish for the NZ coastline to remain in public hands, and believe Justice Churchman has not ruled in line with the law set out in the marine and Coastal act.
There has been minimal media hype, about this but please be assured there is a high degree of public interest in the case and widespread concern about the implications of the judgement.
Since the Churchman decision is not based on the law that Parliament intended, the legal principles should be challenged in the Court of Appeal.

We believe this must happen, and if not challenged by yourself along with the privately funded landowners Coalition Inc, it will have set a dangerous precedent which will be almost impossible to stop.

Please, challenge the ruling by way of an appeal, to ensure public not private ownership of our amazing coastline.

Regards



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Why choose either diving or fishing when you can do both. Besides crayfish tail is very good bait!!


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 4:01pm
With regard to Iwi taking over ownership.While I may not totally agere to the terms and conditions.But would have to admit the we non maori have not done a very good job of maintaining what was once there.
Before Europen settlers Maori placed Rahui on places,where it was to give a chance for kaimoana to recover.They had winter/summer grounds,knew when to take and when to leave alone but unfortunatley us Europeans/westerners in majority cases disregarded  Iwi and culture and railroaded our way.
This will up set a few but tough.Thats why it was and thats the way we have treated it.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 5:07pm
Apartheid by Stealth
The Labour government is using its Covid windfall election majority in Parliament to implement a legislative programme to permanently divide New Zealanders on racial grounds.  So as not to frighten the public this policy is served up under such deceptive terms as partnership, co-governance, treaty obligations, social justice, UN Charter, correcting inequities, de-naming/re-naming with the government adding new te reo terms almost daily to feed the confusion.  However, looking more closely this plan contains many of the racial elements of Apartheid: such as creating separate race based government agencies , allocating resources, social services, land, water, houses and property by race, giving one racial group Veto powers over others, all this is being implemented with no Labour Party  election manifesto .   Question to Labour voters:  Did you guys vote for this???? Here is classic example of how to shift the goal posts.   First you add a te reo name to a government department.  Next you put the te reo name in front.  And finally you drop the English name.  This is happening all over the place.  Just watch the weather forecasts.   The girls are practically falling over themselves to out te reo one another.      Where is the public discussion let alone a consensus??? 

 The programme, which has already started in small steps is to be fully implemented by 2040.  This purposely drawn out gestation replicates the experiment of how to boil a frog.  The frog is put in a pot of cold water, which is slowly heated.  Quite surprisingly the frog remains unaware that the water is slowly getting hotter until it is too late and the frog has died.  And so will democracy slowly die if this separatist plan is allowed to progress.  Racial mixing has gone on in these islands for over 200 years and this mixing is constantly accelerating the racial dilution.  In a few more generations the only way a government will be able to continue with this racial separation stupidity is with DNA tests.  Whatever happened to the term” We are one people”? 

Cheers 

Rainbow

PS  Note to all John Key fans .     Thank this genius for the Foreshore and seabed mess and for  signing us up to the Un Charter for indigenous people.



Posted By: Hook-it
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

With regard to Iwi taking over ownership.While I may not totally agere to the terms and conditions.But would have to admit the we non maori have not done a very good job of maintaining what was once there.
Before Europen settlers Maori placed Rahui on places,where it was to give a chance for kaimoana to recover.They had winter/summer grounds,knew when to take and when to leave alone but unfortunatley us Europeans/westerners in majority cases disregarded  Iwi and culture and railroaded our way.
This will up set a few but tough.Thats why it was and thats the way we have treated it.

Absolute rubbish. And tough to you !


Posted By: Hook-it
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:

Apartheid by Stealth
The Labour government is using its Covid windfall election majority in Parliament to implement a legislative programme to permanently divide New Zealanders on racial grounds.  So as not to frighten the public this policy is served up under such deceptive terms as partnership, co-governance, treaty obligations, social justice, UN Charter, correcting inequities, de-naming/re-naming with the government adding new te reo terms almost daily to feed the confusion.  However, looking more closely this plan contains many of the racial elements of Apartheid: such as creating separate race based government agencies , allocating resources, social services, land, water, houses and property by race, giving one racial group Veto powers over others, all this is being implemented with no Labour Party  election manifesto .   Question to Labour voters:  Did you guys vote for this???? Here is classic example of how to shift the goal posts.   First you add a te reo name to a government department.  Next you put the te reo name in front.  And finally you drop the English name.  This is happening all over the place.  Just watch the weather forecasts.   The girls are practically falling over themselves to out te reo one another.      Where is the public discussion let alone a consensus??? 

 The programme, which has already started in small steps is to be fully implemented by 2040.  This purposely drawn out gestation replicates the experiment of how to boil a frog.  The frog is put in a pot of cold water, which is slowly heated.  Quite surprisingly the frog remains unaware that the water is slowly getting hotter until it is too late and the frog has died.  And so will democracy slowly die if this separatist plan is allowed to progress.  Racial mixing has gone on in these islands for over 200 years and this mixing is constantly accelerating the racial dilution.  In a few more generations the only way a government will be able to continue with this racial separation stupidity is with DNA tests.  Whatever happened to the term” We are one people”? 

Cheers 

Rainbow

PS  Note to all John Key fans .     Thank this genius for the Foreshore and seabed mess and for  signing us up to the Un Charter for indigenous people.

Well said Herb.


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 5:52pm
I tip my hat to you Herb. Very well said, the voice of reason.


Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 6:46pm
Dont forget, to appeal the High Court decision, requires money. 
Donate at
  http://www.nzcpr.com/fundraiser-donation-page" rel="nofollow - www.nzcpr.com/fundraiser-donation-page


and the internet banking account details are ASB Bank NZCPR claims fundraiser account: 12-3099-0833814-52 


Posted By: Pcj
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Hook-it Hook-it wrote:

Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

With regard to Iwi taking over ownership.While I may not totally agere to the terms and conditions.But would have to admit the we non maori have not done a very good job of maintaining what was once there.
Before Europen settlers Maori placed Rahui on places,where it was to give a chance for kaimoana to recover.They had winter/summer grounds,knew when to take and when to leave alone but unfortunatley us Europeans/westerners in majority cases disregarded  Iwi and culture and railroaded our way.
This will up set a few but tough.Thats why it was and thats the way we have treated it.

Absolute rubbish. And tough to you !
Myopion and i am allowed an opion even if it goes against the majority. Glad I sent my email in support of Iwi.


Posted By: MB
Date Posted: 31 May 2021 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

Myopion and i am allowed an opion even if it goes against the majority. Glad I sent my email in support of Iwi.

You are indeed and don't worry about the majority viewpoint, that will cease to matter soon. 


Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 8:08am
Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

Myopion and i am allowed an opion even if it goes against the majority. Glad I sent my email in support of Iwi.

You are indeed and don't worry about the majority viewpoint, that will cease to matter soon. 

It already has and not just with matters relating to New Zealanders of Maori descent. Although this drive for separatism/apartheid is being driven at a frenetic pace. Both local and central Government regularly ignore the will of the majority and have been doing so for years. All preceded by faux consultation and manipulated surveys/statistics.


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Legasea Legend Member


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 8:22am
But would have to admit the we non Maori have not done a very good job of maintaining what was once there.
Before Europen settlers Maori placed Rahui on places,where it was to give a chance for kaimoana to recover.They had winter/summer grounds,knew when to take and when to leave alone but unfortunatley us Europeans/westerners in majority cases disregarded  Iwi and culture and railroaded our way.

Sry but historical evidence says very different.
1/ Maori had not smelted metal, not built stone buildings.. pre much in a stone age level of technology.
2/They like all societies , including far more advanced in 1000s of yrs, and still do today.. simply moved on to the next bit of land when exhausted the 1st.
3/Massive burnoffs where a stand of hunting. This resulted if huge areas, eg Canterbury plans, going from huge sub tropical rain forest to barren land.  Far greater areas in total than has been cleared since arrival of Europeans.
4/Due 2/ and 3/ far greater numbers of indigniuos wildlife was made extinct before Europeans arrived.

The concept of caring for the land, being care takers for future generations is a very modern 20th century concept that started with farmers as 'unlimited burn move on ' land become in short supply.

5/ And it is now racist, loose ones job etc etc, to openly discuss actual historical facts , rather than simply bury them to go alone with current PC BS

One could even make the comparison of the situation Dawn went thru, and even attitudes decades after the acceptance of evolution.

Its also along the same lines where Europeans cant accept that the Chinese and Middle Eastern civilizations, technology, universities, society structure, all all far more advanced over the last 5000 yrs.


Posted By: corosanta
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 9:25am
Thank you STEPS.

I was going to write along those lines but I am happy to say you've done a better job than I could have come up with..


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Sitndrinkntalknbullman


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 10:49am
The thing about culture is it is fluid. You use what is useful and makes sense and it very often displaces or makes old ways of doing thing defunct.



Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 10:56am
This current government reminds me of a Pantera album "Vulgar Display of Power "

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Top 10 finish
2024 Grunter Hunter.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 12:59pm
Like so many of us I gave Jacinda my vote as a way of thanks for her acceptance of science to deal with the Covid pandemic in NZ.     Turns out this generosity was grossly misplaced and now  many of us who did likewise must feel cheated to find out that the  Labour Party had a  racist plan they kept hidden before the election and is now forcing this ugly racist agenda on the unsuspecting public.    I have made many mistakes in my life but been smart enough never to make the same mistake twice, which in the above case means I will never again cast my vote for Labour.   This betrayal should be a cautionary tale for the naïve enthusiasts who want to increase the parliamentary term to four years.    A good government will be re-elected while even three years is too long for a bad one.    Our vote is our only chance to control them.    Don't throw it away!!!

Cheers 

Rainbow

Oh one more.     Apparently Justice Churchman had a history as a lawyer working on Maori claims before he became a judge.    This reminds me of Judge Beecroft's judgement that Maori do not need  a Fish and Game license because trout are a substitute for native fish Maori tribes used to catch for food.   This decision was successfully appealed costing many thousands of scarce license holders money. Turns out Judge Beecroft also worked on Maori claims before he became a judge.    

This brings up the important question as to why we allow judges with such a background decide such important test cases?




Posted By: Alan L
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 5:37pm
"This brings up the important question as to why we allow judges with such a background decide such important test cases?"

Probably complete coincidence.
Nothing to do with getting the result you want. Wash my mouth out.
Alan 


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Legasea Legend member


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 5:51pm
Herb the very fact Jacinda labelled it the Covid election and actually won a majority with no new policy announcements was astounding.


Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Herb the very fact Jacinda labelled it the Covid election and actually won a majority with no new policy announcements was astounding.

Not really, there was no credible oposition.


Posted By: Reel Deal
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 7:26pm
Ranbow just because Jacinda promotes racist agendas and is putting in place without asking the people who employee her doesn’t mean you can’t vote for Labour again. National put in anti environment policies like to meet its clean water goals lifting the bad water level and doing little else then promoting heavy polluting industries... all political parties sell out and do the wrong thing. What democracy offers is people voting out what they don’t like...we don’t want to be like America where people are republicans  or democrates and you have to vote what your party says even if you know it’s BS. Every party has good and bad policies just vote for what has the most good ones for you. 

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The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb


Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 7:33pm
I ain’t voting for racist socialists under any circumstance,
Especially when there was credible people to vote for.

In fact I take on your point Kevin and will go as far to say only Seymour is offering any kind of challenge to Jacinda. And he represents some kind of hope of wrestling some votes from her.


Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 8:45pm
It is a dream to think that all judges are above bias.    Just watch how the various presidents stacking  the US Supreme Court to get the judgements they want.   

Cheers 

Rainbow 

   



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