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Sharpening Filleting Knives

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Category: Saltwater Fishing
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URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128810
Printed Date: 21 Oct 2019 at 4:41pm


Topic: Sharpening Filleting Knives
Posted By: Boyo
Subject: Sharpening Filleting Knives
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 10:44pm
Does anyone know of a business in Hamilton, or close by, that provides a knife sharpening service.



Replies:
Posted By: Metal Float
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 9:58am
Sorry can't help with Hamilton - but have to add that I've experienced quite a lot of poor `professional' knife sharping so suggest you look to verify any recommendation. I picked up a range of `throw-way' knives and practised and practised so now do my own on a stone.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 10:32am
Go back thru older threads..
 There are instuction on what sort of steel need application.. very critical to maintaining edges.
 And handling.. drawing a blade across a bone kills an edge
 And how to sharpen, including convex edges.  
 Also certain applications.. eg fish, may require a steep (30/35 deg edge closer to the handle  for cutting pin bones, breast plates, and 22 deg for tip, filleting , peeling meat from bones.

 Basic secret is form the burr one side , then the other from the coarse stone right thru to final stroping .. if going that far

Is not rocket science, dont need a phd.. 

 my personal preference is convex edges on all our knives.. kitchen, boat, hunting , matcettes... even the old German NCO  dress bayonet.. which is the same edge as a old cut throat razor.

If converting say a high carbon steel or SS, green river or victory fillet knife or kitchen knife to convex.. like all sharpening  will be around 1000 to 1200 strokes starting with 400 grit to 1200 grit.

 Burr and Patience...no short cuts is the secret to the edge
 Correct use, and storage to maintaining.
NEVER / NEVER put a good knife in a draw dish washer or laid alongside other knives.. wood block, magnetic wall strip, sheath..a must. and alway oiled..kitchen non stick aerosolcooking oil simplest way to go.
 


Posted By: waynorth
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 11:06am
You can buy a Lansky sharpening system for about a hundred bucks & get consistent good results yourself. Same cost would probably only get you a few knives professionally sharpened.

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treat fish like fish


Posted By: Polar_Kiwis
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 11:41am
I imported some diamond sharpeners for woodworking. And then just watched all the youtube's on sharpening. 
Between that and a steel between every snapper doing alright.


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Here fishy, fishy fishy.... Nom, nom, nom


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by waynorth waynorth wrote:

You can buy a Lansky sharpening system for about a hundred bucks & get consistent good results yourself. Same cost would probably only get you a few knives professionally sharpened.

Ditto, re Spyderco. Great for all except the convex edges Steps mentioned. 
Two or three sharpenings at a farmer's market knife guy and you've paid the cost of a new Victory!

Sadly, I've given up on my Svord filleting knife which has a convex edge. It wasn't the top of the range wooden handle one, but my skills with sandpaper on mouse pads and all the rest of the convex sharpening techniques that look so easy on YouTube just don't seem up to it.

When I fillet I don't go through any bones, just pare alongside the skeleton. Chopping through backbones before cooking up frames is done with a big machete style old carbon steel knife, not my filleting one.





Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 5:07pm
 but my skills with sandpaper on mouse pads
 That could be you your problem..
 The is a lot of stuff on U tube that  will work once then doesn't hold the edge, cant get the initial results back...
 The mouse pad is waaay to small.. a full sheet of QWUAITY wet n cry paper.. clamped to a large sheet of that stuff u see at the red shed sold as yoga pads...
 And do it on a flat stable surface..a thick chopping block or the edge of the table.. and nothing slips.

 I have been looking around for quite a while, a suitable light weight linisher that can take fine grit papers and can be use wet... rather than by hand.. may have to end up making one .. have been thinking out of an old light weight bandsaw.

Dont get trapped into the show off BS "look can shave the hairs on my arm"
 To do that and hold the edge.. that is specialist steel scaped a special way, and fine thickness... its called a cut throat razor.. not a filleting or carving knife.
 The later due to blade edge shape will not stay sharp or even hold the edge long.. and will blint quick as the burr snaps off.
Sharp?
 General use knives, check the sameway as you check your fish hooks... rest the blade on your thumb nail and gentle sideway movement.. if it slides its blunt.. if it doesnt slide its sharp.
 And Julia Child.. the cook.. classic description.. lay the knife with its own weight on a tomato, and drag it back with 2 fingers.. it should cut at least 1/2 way thru a good sized tomato..

 The slice the paper...get your knife sharp then try different papers/ cardboard.. can get impressive results with  only near sharp edges...that will side on a thumb nail.

 Again lot what u see on u tube is misleading.


Posted By: Boyo
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 9:13pm
Hi Steps
 
Thanks for your response. Currently I have a 1000/3000 water stone and I think one of my problems is failing to maintain a constant angle. I like the look of the Lansky system and might investigate that more.


Posted By: Boyo
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 9:20pm
Thanks for your response Waynorth. I think I will follow up on this.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 9:23pm
A lot depends on brand of knife as well,some will hold shape and stay sharp for a few fillets others will do a fillet and never get the edge back,spend time researching knives. 



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water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 8:32am
 I think one of my problems is failing to maintain a constant angle. I like the look of the Lansky system and might investigate that more.

That is about muscle memory.. like when riding a bike or learning to drive a manual car, you have to think about pedaling or clutch/ change gear...after a while you can do a whole trip then at the end realise that you cant rem actually changing the gear..
To get angle.. vertical is 90 deg  1/2 is 45 deg, 1/2 that is 33 deg... then wipe the blade on the stone.. one side till get that burr.
 The lanskeys are excellent...down side, when you dont have it around, and need it ..
Once upon a time  knife/ chisel/ scissors/axe/ chainsaws.. types of steel, application, angle and how to was part of an apprentice trade.
 Butcher , barber, chef, carpenter, cabinet maker, seamstress, forestry...

Brands.. that's about type of steel, and the metalology that goes into that steel mentioned above.

NEVER... NEVER put a knife on a grinder, even light.. the heat generated on the edge takes about all the annealing.. leaves soft steel.


Posted By: Billfish2
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 9:29am
Hi There is a company called courier sharpening, they could help you out.

I am a qualified butcher, I can’t emphasise the importance of using a good Stone / and a good steel. Use the steel every 10 cuts or so. It is critical to steel the knife the exact same angle you stone the knife. (Otherwise you will get a shoulder on the knife)

I stone and steel my knife on a 15 degree angle.

Very important to keep stone clean and clean steel after use.


The steel takes the very small burs off the knife.

Some good brand of steel is Dick, and knifes Victroniox, Dick.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 9:32am
PS 
If want to play.. be it stone or convex..
 Get a $5  Pams paring knife from new world/ pak n Save.
These come up with a good edge... go for the steeper 30 deg angle.. stone or stroping.
 And use a heavy grit/ stone.. a 400 wet n dry paper
 You pull more off and can see your angles etc, and being a short blade adds to that also.
 Get both sides , the area you are working even.
 The tip is the hardest, sort of lift the handle as you go around the curve of the tip.

You will not get that burr even at 30 deg at 1st.. those knives er more high 30s..what you will be doing is working down the shoulder (bit between the main blade and working surface.. not the edge down.
 When that shoulder has been worked down you will feel the burr forming.. 
Then the other side..
 If you find you have the burr.. then next time althu you think have angle right, no burr.. its because your angle has changed and working the shoulder.
Once the intial burr is forming each side, then 10 light strokes each side.. fineburr, and go to lighter grit.
 600... 10 strokes each side then 5 strokes
 Then lighter grit.. 800 or even 1200... 
 10 strokes then 5  then 3 then 5 to 10 swapping each time.
Stone..you push into the stone..
 Stropping you drag away.

A steel doesnt sharpen a dull blade...it simply straightens out the burr.. once that burr has broken away , the steel will not re form it, its back to the stone/ stroping.
Someone mentioned wisely above about a quick run on the steel after each fish.. which is what that is doing.. a butcher does the same thing.
 After a while you will feel when a burr has bent...never push , do the next fish if burr has bent.. you will break it off.

And it is here lot people believe they cant create a edge that stays sharp...its not the edge its maintenance of that edge.
 


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Billfish2 Billfish2 wrote:

Hi There is a company called courier sharpening, they could help you out.

I am a qualified butcher, I can’t emphasise the importance of using a good Stone / and a good steel. Use the steel every 10 cuts or so. It is critical to steel the knife the exact same angle you stone the knife. (Otherwise you will get a shoulder on the knife)

I stone and steel my knife on a 15 degree angle.

Very important to keep stone clean and clean steel after use.


The steel takes the very small burs off the knife.

Some good brand of steel is Dick, and knifes Victroniox, Dick.
15 dregree angle that would closer filleting to bone less waste?



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water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?


Posted By: Kiwi Koro
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2019 at 3:25pm
Believe it or not my best filleting knife is a $20 Thin blade Wiltshire Stayshrp knife, sharpens itself every time I pull it out of the scabbard,the occasional steel whilst filleting and skinning,always razor sharp.
I also buy the older ones in the orange sharpener scabbard from markets and Op shops as they make mean bait knives,always sharp as.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2019 at 5:17pm
Just over a week ago we came back over the bar with a good 25/ 30 nice  sized snapper, KY.
 A well known local fisherman, from a well know fishing family, used my filleting knife while I washed down the boat etc.

He could not believe how the knife stayed sharp right to the end, even when chopping thru rib and pin bones...
 And at the end of it.. the blade still dug in when tested on his thumb nail.. like a fish hook.
Not once was a steel or anything used.
 And being a convex edge, no way do you put a steel on such an edge...

 Stay sharp knives are not 'sharp'
 The carbon crystals do not dissolve in the lower grade steels. As the knife is used, or drawn thru the 'sharpener' the crystals break out and off on the edge leaving a microscopic saw edge with broken glass sharp edges...
 These edges very quickly blunted requiring constant attention....ideal situation for constant sharpening demos at boat and home shows..



Posted By: smelli
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2019 at 7:34pm
Steps what is your brand of knife ?

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http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=717361


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2019 at 8:56am
All our knives.. kitchen  and filleting are Green River.. now an obsolete brand  superseded by the Victory brand made by Goddards in East Tamaki

The older skinning carving knives I brought back in late 60s early 70s are non stainless green river
The later knives 21 st century are both victory and green river...
Boning / filleting etc

My bait knives are $5 pams  New World pairing knives.
 The kitchen cleaver is a $10 non stainless  iron brought at flea market.
 
The fish splitter is a small matchette...

They have in recent yrs all been converted from stone honed to convex edges, and stropped (like a cut throat razor).
 
If you look close at the edges of top of the line exotic hand made brands you will see they also have convex edges.
There is a lot of time and work forming up a good convex edge on a hardened steel of a good knife...ie there is around 1500 to 2000 strokes on something like a std victory carving or filleting knife. on 800 to 1200 grit wet and dry.

Is the effort worth it? yes
 Once one starts to use knives , kitchen, bait board, breaking down fish beasts etc one will keep those knives with a good edge.
 And doing so once have the edge built up takes far less time and effort than rebuilding burrs on stones.

I grew up in a old school barber shop days of cut throats, leather stropes etc...For decades used stones , converted 1 knife a while back, now all are...
 Be it good steel or elcheapo Pams pairing knives , the edge goes thru far more , stays sharp longer and needs far less maintenance.

Al you need is a bit of the sponge stuff  the thinner yoga mats are made of and a few wet. dry sheets of 800 grit (for initial shaping) and  1200
 The sponge takes care of the convex shaped edge.

 Edit: added pic  had trouble doing so before
left to right
Steel  GR carving   Steel GR skinning GR SS carving, 2X pams bait, iron cleaver, fish splitter, GR SS carving, Victory SS Fish Fillet, GR SS boning /fillet

 


Posted By: John_Ra
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2019 at 9:50am
Just finished reading thru these posts... interesting...

my 2 bobs worth :-)
Used an oil stone for years, now use 1000/3000 whetstone
brilliant I reckon. Yes watched youtube...
I can maintain a pretty good angle when sharpening. Can get the
piece to put on your knife to help maintain that angle.
whetstone & steel, knife is good to go. Got my knives from Save Barn on saleyards road Otahuhu...
Some on here go a bit overboard on their knives & keeping them sharp & that's ok for them.

Me: I tell myself your only filleting "Fish!!" not doing surgery!!
In the end it is upto you on what you want.....




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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2019 at 10:51am
Me: I tell myself your only filleting "Fish!!" not doing surgery!!
In the end it is upto you on what you want.....

And yes that is the general consensus...
 Till one starts to use good steel and good edges.. regardless how formed... that dont need a steel after filleting 25 plus good sized snaps/ KY
 And filleting is a tiny part.. carving a roast, the Xmas ham..slicing a tomato..
Then they , have a go at their knives.. general that doesnt last because they dont have the patience to complete the exercise.
Not much different to the new lawn mower cutting the lawn so nice.. and never bother to maintain the blade edge.

 But once you get the hang of stropping or wet stone on basic knives.. then take those skills to a quality steel knife and know not to draw over a bone, espec the tip, and how to store etc...that session filleting a full bin, and when getting tried of the pile still in front of you... and the knife is peeling back meat as it did on the 1st fish...or beast

 Something most people never see let alone experience...unless happen to use someones well prepared knife....and the example I gave above of person using mine...that is the 1st time EVER I have allowed someone to use my knife..




Posted By: Fish 4T
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 7:47am
Any of you use or experience with Chef or Wuhstof Electric Knife Sharperner?
Are they any good for mixed set knives or filleting knives,
or better learn how to use Lansky properly.
reason I don't like Lansky its I don't have the patient & time to do them.








Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:53am
The electric knife sharpeners are a quick soln to keep cheap std  high carbon crystral (microscopic saws described ) dispoable blades keep an edge.
 Quick simple and wear the blade down quick..if used when blunt ...but in most cases those who have suck knives or use these very soon dont bother to keep an edge anyway.

 Also to add to that.. electric sharpeners tend to heat the very tip of the edge, this removes the the hardening of the steel and will not keep an edge.
A knife blade blank is ordinary carbon steel.. it is filed and shaped and initial edge formed easy cause it has not yet been hardened.
 It is then heated to critcal temp.. basically red hot, then cooled very fast, in water or oil or even liquid nitrogen.
It now becomes to hard to file or saw, mill  and needs to be ground.  I also becomes very brittle, use it to lever something and the blade will snap...if too brittle it is them tempered.. heated to a low temp and cooled to relieve some of the bittlenes.
 putting a good steel be it a spade or knife on a grinder, linisher (as some.. a lot of knife sharpening professionals do!!)  heats that edge and destroys the steel crystal structures and therefore its ability to keep an edge.

As far as I know, the only application for roller or blade self sharpening on good steel is for military bayonet type applications.

reason I don't like Lansky its I don't have the patient & time to do them. 

 Time patience 
It takes me 15 to 20 strokes on the paper to touch up the edges after fillting around 25/ 30 fish...
10 to 15 to touch up the kitchen kniveas once a week.

Others will take far more.. and the reason is the knives arwe not stored, or used correctly..
Rec filleting a fish, when peeling back the top meat from the side, most ppl will draw the end edge of the knife down the side of the spine...This is the part of the knife that does the fine peeling back like a scalple. 
edge gone
 Run the very tip down...not the edge.

In the kitchen, same thing, draw the blade over a bone...or using a knife to cut a sandwich in 1/2 on a plate...the the blade edge at the end, edge gone..
 IF going to cut on a plate , like going down the side of the spine on a fish, use the very tip against the bone, not the edge at the tip.

And it is this sort of use of a knife that then makes having to form a NEW EDGE every time you sharpen.

 And that takes time and patience.
 Correct storage and knife skills removes both of the above.




Posted By: Fish 4T
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 9:56am
Thank you Steps for explanation, very helpful. Thumbs Up




Posted By: Fish 4T
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 10:21am
After few youtube videos about knives sharpening and
exactly like Steps said "Is not rocket science".
Managed to sharpen my fillet & boning knives to very low angle after few trials,
you should give it ago Boyo rather than paying someone for it.

Here my setup with idea from youtube,
Whetstone on offcuts wood on the sink under dripping tap,
DIY brackets works a treat and I made some iki knives while at it to.

Now, I'm thinking should I spend more $ for ceramic whetstone.
it just never end, is it. :)



Posted By: 700 LTR
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 10:47am
I have a couple of filleting knives I use a victory and a Rhineland I picked up at the Miami boat show last year. 

I haven't stoned them for over a year now I run them over the steel before a filleting session, they are both sharp enough to shave the hairs off your arm 

Works for me and well and truly sharp enough for me! 


Posted By: Kandrew
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 12:14pm
Yep I suppose it’s how far you want to take, I brought a rapala filleting knife from burnsco and one of their red electric shapeners. I just give the knife a tickle up before I start, cut all the way down the back bone through the rib cage and pin bones. Works for me.

Best thing then flour and batter and into the deep fryer


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:36pm
I haven't stoned them for over a year now I run them over the steel before a filleting session

 The steel doent sharpen a edge.. it staighens out the burr.. you will find when the burr has broken off you will need to re hone.. be it a stone or strop..
Work the edge one way, form the burr, then the other, getting ligher pressure and finer grits as you go..

 I work the main edge around 30 deg.. that chops (dont draw it across the bones.) thru ribs , pin bones etc.. the steep edge keeps the edge longer
The tip curve around 20/22 deg.. that is where the filleting, peeling meat back from bones happens.. use the very tip no edge against splines etc

Same principle applies to lotas things.. a chainsaw.. cut pine.. 22 deg.. cut manuka or puriri 30/35 deg.. a 22 deg blade will dull very quick on hard wood.

Its not just the quaity of the steel, or the angle, but the skills of the person using the knife that determines how a blade stands up...
 A knowledgable and skilled knife person even with a crap soft very flexable steel knife will keep that edge far longer than a unskilled person with the best steel and edge in the world.


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

All our knives.. kitchen  and filleting are Green River.. now an obsolete brand  superseded by the Victory brand made by Goddards in East Tamaki


Hi Steps,

I salute your knowledge of all things sharpening, particularly the old school stuff.
However, I don't think you're correct that the Green River brand is obsolete or was superseded by Victory.
Green River skinning and boning knives (made by E Goddard - maker of Victory) are still available at farmer-oriented shops.

eg, Farm Source
https://store.nzfarmsource.co.nz/catalog/green-river-skinning-knife-14cm/220736" rel="nofollow - https://store.nzfarmsource.co.nz/catalog/green-river-skinning-knife-14cm/220736


Interestingly, there's a US 'Green River' brand as well, made by Dexter Russell these days. Mostly carbon steel. i wonder if the NZ knives were made here by E Goddard under licence??



Posted By: Ho Dee
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 9:13pm
For anyone going  to Vietnam I got a guy who makes knives to make me a couple a filleting, a carving which they don't really have and one of those small about 8inch cleavers(I use this heaps).Dont know what sort of steel they are but it sort of rings when you flick it , got some numbers on them and stayed sharp as. Cheap as chips and wish I had bought  few more. You see workshops with guys making them all over. No problems with customs bringing them home.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 9:00am
8inch cleavers(I use this heaps).
 and machetes
 2 so super handy yet in NZ so under utilised. 
Use of a solid cast cleaver, didnt get into those till about 10yrs back at Chinese friends place watching asking questions in the kitchen...
 Machete, Son came back after spending a few months working on very remote islands in the Solamins..I was pruning the plum trees and he pulled out the working machete he brought back out of the back of the truck...
 These to get right you form the edge.. like a axe, if you are left or right handed

People think the steel is the be all to end all.. it is not.. you can have the best steel in the world for your use, but if has not been hardened and annealed correctly for that use, you will be wasting your time.


Posted By: braveintranets
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2019 at 9:31pm
Timely thread. Read couple of https://eatrbox.com/best-fish-fillet-knife/" rel="nofollow - articles ,I decided to buy the Victorinox Fillet Knife, but it didn't come super sharp and after using it several times, it seems like the knife doesn't hold its edge all that great.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2019 at 9:56am
Couple things
 Why Victorinox and not a NZ made victory?
Even so should keep an end.. most knives looese their edge very quickly due to how the knife is being used... Knives, filleting , carving meat, using an axe, macteete  etc is not just a matter of picking up and using...ther is a lot in how the knife is used.. skills
 eg most ppl will slide the end part of the blade down the back bone... and same cutting a sandwich on a plate..

And why ppl seem to want very flexable knives and except them to keep a good edge?
Regardless of carbon or SS, or what ever steel, a knife is heated up the blade hardened.. Very Brittle.. open a can and it will snap like a twig.  It is then  reheated to a lower temp depending on the characteristics required, which then makes the blade more flexible , and softer steel..on the edge.

Dont know much about that web site, but once upon a time chefs, carpenter, butchers, barbars 5/ 7 yr apprentice courses used to go right into blades, steels how , why.. now at best its just how to sharpen clean and store a knife.. and that very limited as well... A trade dosent make a craftsman.

And to even consider, let alone try and use a boning knife as per that web page to fillet fish... realy?

 Also note the 'fine print'
It is important to also note that EatrBox.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program.......

Had a bit of a read on that site.. including growing tomatoes and a few other bits... I will lay odds she has NEVER grown tomatoes..just take a lot of in depth stuff wrote an article that basically says tomatoes need very special attention...yeah right.... And I get the same impression on her knives.. not a mention of edges, types, angles, or how to use. or a simple way to check if sharp.. rem how sharp is dependant on the end use.

 ie 'A shave the hairs off' is a fine, 18 or 22 deg angle, .. very thing edge, not designed to fillet a fish or carve a roast...a Blade if check same as a fish hook on a thumb nail.. bits in will not slide at all is a good working sharp and either around 22 or 30 deg.

I suggest that you go to Bunsco .. marine deals   .dont think smart marine has them... and get a NZ made, with a world wide reputation of near on 100yrs victory knife.. and for filleting the white handle on the far right of the pic I posted... or if possible locate the same knife under the Green river name , now obsoleted.. both 
 And when use it NEVER... NEVER run the tip edge down a bone...


Posted By: Boyo
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 11:35pm
This has been an interesting thread and I have read all responses to my original question with interest. Steps you obviously have a keen interest and a lot of knowledge in knife sharpening.
I was driving through Kuaotunu today, while on holiday in the Coromandel, area and passed a business sign on the side of the road about hand forged knives so I turned around and called in see what it was all about. I got talking to a gentleman called Lloyd who makes hand forged knives out of car spring steel. A really interesting guy and he turnes out beautifully crafted knives. As it happened he also sharpens knives and I happened to have two of my filleting knives with me so I got him to sharpen them while I observed. First thing he did was run them over a slow moving, worn out 240 grit linishing belt to get the edge, then on to a 100 year old oil stone passed down from his grand father then onto a waxed polishing wheel to strop them. I noticed the angle he was working it at was higher than I have been using on my water stone. When finished they shaved the hair on his arm....all for a cost of $5 each


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2019 at 9:37am
First thing he did was run them over a slow moving, worn out 240 grit linishing belt 

With such a coarse grit he would be making a new edge from scratch, as the old edge most bproberly out /chipped/ etc
 Slow.. no heat at all on the very edge.. heat knives instant kill the blade/ edge.
 linishing belt.. with a little pressure that give a convex edge... just the same as doing by hand on we and dry on a a firm foam pad.. as I describe above.

100 year old oil stone
 Not sure why then gone to the stone.. maybe because you use a stone ..  quality old stones well cared for/ re ground are far superior to el cheapo modern stones

then onto a waxed polishing wheel to strop them. 
Bit over kill for the end use of the knife, basically the same as stropping up a cut throat razor on a leather barber strop.. these are also impregnated with a oil/ wax that has very fine rouge (polishing grit) in it
  10 stroke either side on a fine well worn 1200 grit wet dry paper/ soft backing, then another 20 alternating sides will do damn near the same thing...

angle he was working it at was higher than I have been using on my water stone
 Would be because of the type/quality of steel and knowing what the end use of the knife

Got limit 20 good sized snaps couple days ago off the west coast.. m8 (member here) brought his well cared for chef knives...stone ground...
 He had to put his edge on the steel a few times.. my green river/ victory knife start to finish including cutting up 50 cm plus pin bones, skinning etc.. at the end still dug in on the thumb nail test, the full length of the blade.
 worn 1200 wet and dry on foam. 10 stokes each side alternatively put the working edge back on for the next lot fish.

Now you have your knives with good edge.. I mention this above.. when slicing down towards the back bone, use the very tip against the bone, not the edge at the tip..it is this edge at the  tip that that slices into skin, does the fine pell meat back off the bone, the fine edge that with very little incorrect effort will round over, break off the fine edge and become a mission to re form..

hand forged knives out of car spring steel.
 Not any car springs.. old pre late '50s and preferably out of old light weight cars..they have not been worked hard and the steel is high carbon and very little if any chromium in it.
 I have a couple sets of old bradford and ford prefect sets put away here.



Posted By: Uncle
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2019 at 2:37pm
 Got tired of blunt knives & the dialogue above inspired me to buy a Lansky diamond system.

I just tickled up my bait knife & found I can cut paper holding the knife lightly with two fingers!
Yep, & that'll do me Big smile
Got Aunty to wield the phone camera for a photo opportunity but sadly, I can't load the magnificent result on here.
Is just too bloody difficult.



Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 3:22pm
Expensive knives.. Knives I can't afford or need.
Now laid up a bit neighbour comes over with a svord general bush skiing knife.. I'd don't know the history other than was asked" can you sharpen this? " neighbour" I know the guy who can"

Sort of came about because son has been gifted a goudter knife from James goudter. His m8.. Party last night blah blah

Anyway I picked it and sheathe up.. Original sheath.. Don't know but a bit of folded conveyer belt riveted doesn't make the cut for me for a high end.. Well expensive knife
Next inspect the knife handle.. Wil come to that later
The blade.. Still has grinding marks in blade and at the tip they go down into the cutting edge..
I ask "has this knife Ben on a coarse linisher or grinder.. If so the edge could be stuffed.." let's assume the best and hasn't as the other side and rest of the edge looks OK.

Now start to strop up on 800 then 1200 then 1600.. A good hrs work and those bring marks not coming out of the tip edge fully.. But hey this is nice steel to work with.
The edge sticks on thumb nail one end to the other.

It shaves well also.. Very easy
Now the handle.. Basically a ms produced well designed handle with sharp edges.. A expensive knife should be able to be used for long periods and fit like a clove into the hand. Very dispainting.. My late 1960s green river chunky old school carbon steel knife if far more clove like.. And fits to the knife its self far better.

Anyway decide to put up on the leather strop. Load up the rouge.. This takes the edge.. Already a great working edge to the next level.. Just on 200 strokes..
The couple grinding marks that extend to the edge on one side cler of the edge by less than a hir diameter.

Was told this was about a $180 knife.. Sry the finish workmanship in my books doesn't Warrent that sort of money.. Even if I was to finish it off myself.
Nice steel Thu well anealed

Compared to the gouger knife of my sons
The sheath is nice leather simple practical hand made for that knife and very well well finished.. The pride in the workmanship just stands out.
The knive.. Handle a combo of leather and hard wood.. Wood can get a litle slippery in certain circumstance. It fits into the rest of the knife seemlessly to perfection.
And the finish.. I looked real hard. Not a fault.
The blade again the perfection of the the finish can't be faulted.
The edge. Wait for it honed to perfection.. And if was to hazard a guess by a land's key or similar setup. Faultless.
I have no idea what a knife of this stand stel annealing and finish would cost.. Damn I think I would be to scared to ever use it

It was open beside the BBQ last night.. Quite save.. And neighbour who jokingly said earlier he and knives don't have a god relationship. Brushed a finger along the edge. Don't feel a thing. Blood going everywhere.. A serious slice that took a lot of binding to slow down..
The knife had already seen 4 days up in the kimunuas in serious general use.

To qualify
Svorde back in 80s maybe 90s called in had a look very impressed.. Like any other "tourest"
Goulder.. Think may have met him once for a couple minutes a few yrs back at a party at my sons as he and his wife? Where leaving.. Would not recognise him in the street.
Apparently can be found on Facebook.. Went had a look back then. I just don't go to Facebook twtter places. Never have



Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 7:26pm
Here's a little I know about knives.

1:  It is a polarising subject

2:  Many knife makers build knives for the art rather than for function. They really are works of art to be admired and I am not knocking that

3: Carbon steel knives are great but don't meet modern hygiene standards for professional meat processors. I like carbon steel knives.

4: Knives need to be sharp

5: There is no 'one size fits all

6:  A diamond sharpener is an invaluable tool to have on board, even bait knives must be sharp

7: A filleting knife is just that, it's not for cutting bait, bones or other stuff.

Here are some things I think I know about knives:

1: a filleting knife doesn't really need to be flexible

2: A knife for filleting a marlin or kingfish is going to be a different knife for a snapper or gurnard

3: Your favourite knife is the best knife

4: Keep an open mind. My view on knives has changed so much over the years

5:  A $10 Wasabi or Black Magic knife is a great bait knife.





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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: MightyBoosh
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 7:42pm
My fishing buddy uses a $2 bait knife for most of his filleting. The fact that it cost $2 indicates how old it is. The blade is about 3 inches long and stiff. There is not a scrap of meat left on a fish frame when he is done with it and he's damn fast! I've just seen him fillet a marlin with the same knife. Skills over equipment! 


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

My fishing buddy uses a $2 bait knife for most of his filleting. The fact that it cost $2 indicates how old it is. The blade is about 3 inches long and stiff. There is not a scrap of meat left on a fish frame when he is done with it and he's damn fast! I've just seen him fillet a marlin with the same knife. Skills over equipment! 
Here's a little I know about knives.

1:  It is a polarising subject

There you go, proof! Big smile


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 11:32pm
Skills over equipment..
Well put..

One end is good knives and no fingers.

The other is a quick sharpen of a $4 pams new world pairing.. Know how to use it.. Not hit bones and stuff and fillet a fish or

Or a cheaper well honed bush knife.. break down a goat or fallow real quick.
Put the skills and equipment together and one has artistry to watch.
I really wish my knife skills where as good as my edges.. I do know with my edges my knife skills look better than what they really are To the unintiated

I just felt rather disappointed in the finish of the edge and the handle.. Comfort of the svorde compare to what has used couple decades ago..
Put a $40 victory /Goddard's and a svorde in front of me I would grab the victory..
The goulder way out of price range..but if someone wanted a custom high end crafted knife with a blade and working edge to match..




Posted By: MightyBoosh
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 7:27am
Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

My fishing buddy uses a $2 bait knife for most of his filleting. The fact that it cost $2 indicates how old it is. The blade is about 3 inches long and stiff. There is not a scrap of meat left on a fish frame when he is done with it and he's damn fast! I've just seen him fillet a marlin with the same knife. Skills over equipment! 
Here's a little I know about knives.

1:  It is a polarising subject

There you go, proof! Big smile


I'm not polarised, I don't have those skills. Still looking for the holy grail and I've been through a pull-through knife sharpener, an electric knife sharpener, a Lansky system and now a whetstone and still not really satisfied. 


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 10:41am
I have attempted to do a video but totally useless at it.. And throw bad skills and at best a cell phone.. Bad equipment together..
Don't work
Now if someone like coxie or you other guys could do that for here and you channels...



Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

My fishing buddy uses a $2 bait knife for most of his filleting. The fact that it cost $2 indicates how old it is. The blade is about 3 inches long and stiff. There is not a scrap of meat left on a fish frame when he is done with it and he's damn fast! I've just seen him fillet a marlin with the same knife. Skills over equipment! 
Here's a little I know about knives.

1:  It is a polarising subject

There you go, proof! Big smile


I'm not polarised, I don't have those skills. Still looking for the holy grail and I've been through a pull-through knife sharpener, an electric knife sharpener, a Lansky system and now a whetstone and still not really satisfied. 
 
I feel your pain, I've got a similar thing to a Lansky and it's good but I still can't get a perfect edge. Back to the oilstone I guess.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 5:30pm
Drop one of your knives off here Smudge.. I will put and edge on it and go from there.
Neighbour just picked up the svorde.. Thought the edge was "scarry sharp"..
Basic convex edge
2 sheets wet in dry on a foam backing.
Skill level 2% of a stone

MB Iives a little further away to be practical


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 8:38pm
I agree with MB and Smudge, it's a bit demoralising when you can't get a sharp knife. I've tried and tried with my Svord on sandpaper pinned to soft foam etc. But that convex edge defeats me, so I've given up on the Svord.

But for my standard edged knives I get a really sharp edge on my Spyderco rig which is something like a Lansky - my Victory carbon steel, Victory stainless etc. 

I definitely only cut using the tip and first part of the knife, and get a really nice clean fillet on a whole bin of fish before cleaning the knife, sharpening again, and wiping oil on it.


Posted By: Big -Dave
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:38pm
I admit, I don't have the drive or passion to be anywhere near a perfectionist with my knives.
I get them to a usable point, and hack away.
I doubt I will starve.

-------------
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by Big -Dave Big -Dave wrote:

I admit, I don't have the drive or passion to be anywhere near a perfectionist with my knives.
I get them to a usable point, and hack away.
I doubt I will starve.

Big smile


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

Drop one of your knives off here Smudge.. I will put and edge on it and go from there.
Neighbour just picked up the svorde.. Thought the edge was "scarry sharp"..
Basic convex edge
2 sheets wet in dry on a foam backing.
Skill level 2% of a stone

MB Iives a little further away to be practical

Thanks for the offer Steps, I do a reasonable job but just not 100%. Besides my son works at the local butchers as an apprentice and he can do them real sharp. I just wish I could.


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Best gurnard fisherman in my street


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2019 at 12:14pm
This op recover is going to be around 12 weeks before can think about getting back into the boat fishing..
Dave.. drop in again when passing next TK
head down this way for a cuppa,

Bring the knives I will show you how and get them up where you want.
 My victory/ green river used to be on a stone, one by one converted all to convex...because they keep the edge far longer and if got a big pile fish. only takes a couple seconds to get that edge back.

Where as on a honed edge once the burr has gone..steel only re shapes the burr, not sharpens, one has to re stone to re form the edge from the break off of the burr, then reform the burr.


Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2019 at 3:50pm
It would be awesome to watch you sharpen a convex, Steps. 

I'd be interested to know what you think of the wet & dry and mouse pad sharpening technique in this YouTube video. The guy rambles a bit at the start, but shares your view that convex edges stay sharper longer and once he gets around to actually sharpening, it looks fairly simple.
One thing he doesn't mention is the angle between the sandpaper and the knife. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQJKT4a9yLo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQJKT4a9yLo



Posted By: feeder
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 9:30am
Electric for me, one pass on the coarse stone and one on the fine stone, that's good enough for 20 snaps, pin bones and all skinning, Victorinox knives (the best).
 
By the time the purists have got their knives sharpened my fish will be finishedLOL.
 
Cheers


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The only bar to frequent is the Kawhia Bar


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 4:28pm
Ask any butcher or profeassional knife hand, chef or even a home cook, as to the diference in the quailty of the finished product between sharp knives and a rough edge that cuts because it is no more than a fine saw edge.

Once one starts to use a well edged knife to fillet fish , carve a roast , slice a tomato, one will never forget that experience.

Its not a "purist" thing at all.

 Classic example given above, my neighbour, a well know personality and fisherman, far far more experienced than my self, who his m8s have given their knives to him to put and edge on for many yrs...then he uses my victory fillet knife going thru a pile of good sized snaps an KY..


Posted By: Catchelot
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

My fishing buddy uses a $2 bait knife for most of his filleting. The fact that it cost $2 indicates how old it is. The blade is about 3 inches long and stiff. There is not a scrap of meat left on a fish frame when he is done with it and he's damn fast! I've just seen him fillet a marlin with the same knife. Skills over equipment! 
Here's a little I know about knives.

1:  It is a polarising subject

There you go, proof! Big smile


I'm not polarised, I don't have those skills. Still looking for the holy grail and I've been through a pull-through knife sharpener, an electric knife sharpener, a Lansky system and now a whetstone and still not really satisfied. 

Andy have you been shown or taught how to do it or reading/videos and DIY perhaps?




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"The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever." - Jacques Cousteau


Posted By: MightyBoosh
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 9:55pm
I'm using a whetstone at the moment. Learnt from the University of YouTube. Don't get me wrong, I can sharpen a carbon steel blade so that it can knock a snapper fillet off without difficulty (and I guess that's all that matters), but I wouldn't describe it as scary sharp.


Posted By: Joker
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 11:26am

 I got one of these off Aliexpress for under $40nz - brilliant


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 12:17pm
Does that have the option to sharpen sissors?
 I ask because it is very similar , thu not as robust built, and the scissor sharpener my Dad had.. an old tradesman barber 
 I still have the stone rod part but missing the lower clamp part.


Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 1:11pm
Here is what I use to convex/ strop our knives
 
 Bit of high density sponge.. cnr of a red shed yoga mat or free sponge packaging. if got to buy the yoga mat about $9
 A  clipboard clip from $2 shop to hold the papers to the foam.
 Couple sheets of wet in dry paper.
 If starting from scratch on a knife a 600 grit
 Then 800
 Then 1200
 For maintenance just 1200
 About $1:50 each..
 A glass of water  free ish
 Maintenance 1 to 2 week intervals a sheet of 1200 will last for 4 kitchen knives, 3 filleting knives 2 bait knives around 3 to 4 months.
 About  1 to 2 mins per knife, even after 20 odd snapper.
 This is pretty much start of scary sharp, shave hairs on arm cleanly.
 Sry it just goes that sharp  cant do much so it doesnt.

And to take next stage.. scarry scarry sharp

leather barbers strop 
no idea what these cost today, would not be hard to make out of a couple scrap strips thick leather 
Rouge.. maybe $5 or $!0 for a block that will last more than a life time. 
couple teaspoons of paraffin/ kero near to free (not in pic)
 This finish take 2 to 3 minutes if so wish.




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