Seachange - take note!
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Category: Saltwater Fishing
Forum Name: The Briny Bar
Forum Description: The place for general chat on saltwater fishing!
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122521
Printed Date: 08 Jun 2026 at 6:40pm
Topic: Seachange - take note!
Posted By: letsgetem
Subject: Seachange - take note!
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 12:15pm
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All recreational fishers should look at this, and make views known. If you don't your rights will be trampled over! This has been raised before; but it wont do any harm to raise it again. Sorry its so voluminous - Ive tried to keep it down, but the info is much harder to find in the report, so it will be handy for people to see whats proposed without having to plough thru it all. To see the plan, go to http://www.seachange.org.nz/" rel="nofollow - There are proposals that appear to be beneficial to recreational fishing; specifically proposals to remove bulk netting commercial fishing from the gulf. Also, there is something that will adversely affect recreational fishing - more Marine Reserves (as Marine Protected Areas). First - I am shocked at how pitiful the treatment of recreational fishing is. Because –
there are very long and complicated deliberations about everything, except recreational
fishing. The only significant description of recreational fishings interest
appears to be on Page 63, as follows – Fishing
is a popular recreational activity in the Hauraki Gulf
Marine Park, with around 220,000 active fishers in the
Park. Numbers are likely to continue increasing with
projected population growth. Recreational fishers gain a
range of values from fishing, in addition to the provision
of food. They value being able to catch a wide
range of fish and sizes in accessible localities and
therefore benefit from high stock levels and suffer disproportionately
from localised depletion. The ability to pass on
fishing knowledge to the next generation is also critical
in this age of digital escape. As well as providing many
social benefits, recreational fishing supports a large
industry consisting of firms who support fishers including
boat builders, service providers, tackle and bait suppliers,
charter operators and attendant hospitality and accommodation
providers. Recreational fishing in the Hauraki
Gulf Marine Park supports a growing high value international
and domestic tourism economy. Artisanal
fishermen and women live in many of the Park’s communities.
Smale-scale local businesses, often leasing catch
entitlement off the large fishing companies, they provide
much needed jobs, and rely on abundant fish stocks
for a living. They too want the opportunity to pass on their knowledge (and
their boats) to their children The above
description of recreational fishing, is approximately 200 words – ie about half
a page. The rest of the Plan consists of hundreds of thousands of words
describing other aspects. 200 words can not possibly begin to cover the
importance of recreational fishing; particularly considering the huge number of
people, estimated at 220,000 in Auckland, who want to take part in recreational
fishing. Proposed are, new Marine Protected Areas, that exclude recreational fishing. I show below those that will affect me - new MPAs in the vicinity of Tiritiri Matangi Island.  This shows
what appears to be two options. …” a decision was not reached on a single size,
location or shape for these areas” and ……..”members arrived at two options for
each of these areas”. The first
option, is for MPA Type 1 encompassing
the whole of the waters around Tiri island – the second , is for a far smaller
area. The first large option covers approximately 30 square kilometres, ie
3,000ha., including all the coast of Tiritiri Matangi and nearby waters,
including about half the Tiri channel, and as far as Shearers Rock. By
comparison, the biggest Marine Reserve at present is Long Bay at 962ha, ie the
proposed option is 3 times as big. Second Option:
MPA type 1 It is not a
goer. It is an unacceptable removal of rights from recreational fishers. This would remove a valuable section of coast
from recreational fishing. In an area that has little structure, any reduction
is significant. It will be vigorously resisted. The green area
MPA Type 2, covers a large area around the end of Whangaparaoa, including all
of Triri channel and seaward of Tiri to the existing cable zone. I understand
that it proposes to disallow dredging for scallops. If so, I am in favour, as I
believe that this method of gathering scallops is far to damaging on the
seabed, and should be banned.
The light blue area is called Ahumoana Management Area. It covers all the coastline, out to 1km. What it actually means in practice is totally unclear, so I cant comment. If it allows restrictions to be introduced by local maori, then I believe it is unacceptable; as one part of society should not have greater rights than any other part Kawau Bay 
this also affects my fishing, and I can see it would adversely affect many others living in that area. Two options are proposed. First is for an enormous area approx 3,000ha, that would ruin recreational fishing in the area south and inshore from Kawau. Even worse, residents of Snells Beach and Martins Bay would lose all the fishing near the coast and have to travel out into exposed waters to fish. It is unbelievable. It is apparent, that the proponents have simply drawn an area on their map, without giving the slightest thought to how it would adversely affect recreational fishing.
Second option – is for a far smaller area. Again, this will be unacceptable, as any reduction in fishing area will simply exacerbate the continuing erosion of recreational fishing rights. Small changes need to be fought - as that's the way the anti-fishing brigade try and make big ones eventually.
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Replies:
Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 12:30pm
| This is BS. Basically that would be all in close sheltered spots closed down and extreme pressure coming on others. |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 1:25pm
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Just had a browse through parts of the plan. Lots of bits I don't like because I think they lose focus of what the plan should be really trying to achieve in the name of political correctness. One part though really bugs me if I have understood it correctly. Ahu Moana. There appears to be what is effectively a proposal in there to hand over management of much of the coastal area to local Maori. The argument is that they will manage it better because of ancestral links etc. Well I have lived and fished in the HG for most of my fifty something years and my father did that for another 30 years or so before me. I don't see why someone is just assumed to have better understanding of the place because they are from a different race. If we are going to have community managed coastal areas then the management group should properly reflect the current population of users, not make some horribly PC assumptions about peoples current understanding because their great great grandfather used to fish there. I have no issue with trying to return the HG to a better state, but too much of what I read isn't about achieving a better result for the majority of the people. Looks like the process has been hijacks by the bureaucratic mess that we have in this country today. Another favourite is that the plan says that charter boats are to report all their catch by 2017. My question is WHY? What is the benefit gained from putting additional costs on the charter fleet. Anyone with any knowledge of the charter industry in the HG, or any interest in even doing the most basic research can work out that the charter industry take maybe 3% - 5% of the HG snapper catch. Could even be less. So what is it that we think we will learn from this data? I would love to see what the justification is for imposing yet more costs on an industry that has been mercilessly raped by this government over the past few years. All I can think of is that it is just a case of the recreational representatives in this process throwing an unresearched bone to the commercial sector who have been going to great lengths to try and deflect blame for the depletion of the snapper stocks. Yes lets fix the problems, but lets do it in a business like way rather than create some inefficient, expensive, and cumbersome bureaucracy that becomes badly divorced from the end goals.
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Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 1:52pm
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I am going to cop some flak right here but I do not give a stuff the wool is being pulled over eyes. The "seachange " steering committee has come up with these proposals and from what Mr Scott Macindoe from"legacy"told me at his residence,nothing can go ahead without the full backing of the committee. So has "legasea had a change in mind set agreeing to locked off areas(in effect marine reserves) Mr Simon Yates who is part of "legasea' stood there at a meeting and said I Quote " Marine reserves do nothing to increase stock levels they are a feel good society thing,for a reserve to work they need to be triple the size" So what is there (legasea) thinking by allowing or agreeing to these proposals? Is this a case of lets go for the ride suck in more public funds? When one looks at John H post and you question him on such articles does a u turn and try to justify his existence/funding |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 1:55pm
| I will invite John H ,Bitetime "Richard Baker" to try and defend themselves |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:20pm
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I wouldn't underestimate how much pressure these guys are under to find an agreeable solution pjc. The real question for me is whether the end result full reflects the requirements of the biggest stakeholder group which is the recreational fishing public. What I read (maybe wrongly) into the report is that it mostly represents the interests of minority stake holders who might be over-represented in the working group, with the blanket assumption supported by some selected survey quotes that the majority stakeholders will be happy with anything that reduces the commercial rape, or that they are too disorganized to make a serious protest. It is election year next year. we need to be even more vocal than during the last election, and you need to start that process months before the election. Unless the government is forced to recognise the voice of the recreational fishing community we will continue to marginalised in favour of other groups.
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Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:27pm
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I dont really care about all the other stuff, MPAs etc....what I think the most important thing is, if adopted, that by 2025 there will be no commercial netting over reefs or seafloor damaging types of fishing activitues, trawling, gill netting danish seining etc, from bream head to the mokes,to outside gt Barrier, to Cuvier, red merc, aldies down to between waihi and whangamata. AND...12 miles out from there, ie; territorial limits. With comms apart from long liners banned from all these areas, inc the HG, things can only get better. It may not be the purists Rec Fishing agenda put in place, but in a sane world that is never gunna happen. Are there reserves. Yes. Are there the statutory kowtowing to maori, yes, is it anti commercial, no, longliners and aquaculture are being promoted, . Of any chances to make positive changes to our marine environment, this is, I think, the best you could likely ever get. Now, to make funding secure for rec fishing lobbying etc...., licences. Gotta do it. ------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection. Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer. |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:41pm
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Capt Asapragrus Ban Seining /trawling netting in general by 2025?there lies my problem,if the powers to be are serious it would banned on the 1st January 2017. We are not serious about rebuilding stocks?how more damage will be done by 2025? Oh you silly people keep forgetting the import issue.Mpi wants fish exports doubled by 2018! So by 2025 it will be stuffed and yes you and I will then be paying the price. 1 snapper min size 500 to max size 650mm You can laugh but I reckon I will not be to far off the mark No time to be nice,nows the time time to take onboard work out how to tackle 2017 election and get whats right for the people of NZ. Where is the Tane o te Whenua voice on "Seachange"?? bet this is being well hidden from iwi?
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Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:49pm
My main point being Stu - what good is all this if you aren't allowed to access all that new abundance? Where are the forecasts and guarantees that should the rec community go along with this plan that they will be allowed to reap the rewards. All the history says that we won't, and to think that things will somehow miraculously change based on this report is in my opinion a bit silly.
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Capt Asparagus wrote:Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:50pm
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Correct "Tagit" we should be the major stakeholder but we are being treated a minor holder There may be a opportunity for your business in the future though,fishing outside these reserves with fly rods and tourist,releasing fish and making $$ Name of the game?Auckland would/could benefit in that case hotels/charters etc
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Posted By: John H
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:58pm
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I don't need to defend myself or anyone else. I can try and explain a few things. Sea Change was an appalling process right from the start. It was promoted by the Environmental Defense Society and sponsored by Auckland Council and Waikato Regional Council. The consultation and Round Table meetings generated little of real value. The Stakeholder Working Group developed a draft plan which was eventually rejected nearly 2 years ago. A new Chairman and a new Stakeholder Working Group picked up the pieces. The different groups represented all had vastly different views on what the HG Marine Park should look like and all groups got some of what they wanted in the final plan. There was also a lot of debate about what should not be in the plan, time and resources ran out. There was a time when the second plan looked like it would be rejected but I think it was decided that the process had run its course, lay all the cards down and see which parts of the plan get implemented. The Councils can act on the water quality and reducing sedimentation but any of the Fisheries changes need to come from MPI and the Minister. Any of the Marine Protected Areas have to come from DOC and the MPA Act which has not be written yet. Yes there will be change in the HG. Some of this will be good for recreational fishers some will be not so good. LegaSea will be focused on rebuild fish stocks in the HG, shifting trawling and Danish seine out of the Gulf and having a separate quota management area for the HG Marine Park so that commercial catch can be managed. All of which are in the plan. |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 3:03pm
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We were all warned about this process and the people, one person in particular who were involved. A few people attacked the messenger. I hope under the fullness of time, when the real beneficiaries of/behind this agreemement are made public that those same people have the courage and fortitude to apologise. I have scanned the document and it does not actually ban rec fishers. However the expression "death by a thousand cuts" comes to mind because the more they cut out the less inclined people will be to go fishing. Especially if they have to travel large distances by sea/land to do so. The guano Ahu Moana clause if brought to fruition could spell the end for most of the rec fishing in the Gulf and is just another example of the ingrained racism/separatism sweeping the country. Agree with Tagit. I have been fishing nearly all of my fifty odd years. All over NZ. From my first plastic rod fishing for Spotties off Wellington wharves at the age of three to fishing the Gulf yesterday. I am a fifth generation New Zealander. Why are my views/needs subserviant to someone with sometimes dubious and very little ethnic ancestry? ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 3:13pm
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There are a heap of opportunities to derive 'export value' from tourism fishing. There isn't many days now where there aren't multiple groups of tourists heading for a fish just from where we are at Z pier. I doubt that many are here just to fish, but I do know that at least a small % have that as a primary goal. Say 10 of them go out and they catch 3 fish each. Allowing for taxis, food, etc that is probably a $2000 day and they take 30 fish. Export value of each fish is around $65 into out economy, and that is disregarding any share of the associated accommodation and service spending. If we had world class fishing and actively promoted it we could probably work out that every snapper caught by a tourist is worth well over $100 in export earnings. Probably worth less than $5 when trawl caught and shipped at a guess. You wouldn't need that many fishing tourists to completely replace the export value of snapper caught in the HG. Trouble is that the charter industry, some of who are actively trying to promote this 'export' don't have friends in government and hence have no real voice to say that there is an export business case for this country that makes much more sense than shipping unprocessed fish as a cheap commodity. Not only that, but it would support the initiative to improve the HG. How about a tourist fishing licence to do nothing but fund improvements in the HG?
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Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 3:58pm
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Another group of small confederations trying to carve up the gulf to fit with their own future agendas. For a long time there has been a subtle move to make recreational feel guilty that they even fish. Looking at the maps there go all my fishing spots. When will they ever confront the real issues facing the gulf. They know what they are but avoid dealing with them. No marine reserve will ever contain the very mobile fish we fish for. The snapper ,Kahawai ,kingfish ,trevelly ,J.D etc are mobile and travel with the seasons. No reserve net work will ever contain them. These suggested exclusion zones constitute a lockout of recreational. Nothing less. So how long before you are out there scrounging your next meal. (will be their words),and someone comes along and says "You are in the wrong place my friend,you better leave." How about looking at the well known migration routes into the gulf. Out the back of Kawau,Colville channel and all the way to Tiri. Ever year fish and snapper in particular are hammered in these areas as they seek to enter the gulf spawning grounds in tight schools . Trawl nets , danish seine ,and tens of thousands of longline hooks take their toll on schools of mature fish. No wonder the fishery has changed. How about making these areas exclusion zones between October and december. But they would not do that would they. Too close to a solution,would effect the wrong people. And what about the quoted 1 million plus fish ,mainly small snapper in sn1,crushed in trawl nets and tossed back to rot. They dont seem to want to look at that either. Ironic when they release 40 000 small snapper into Tasman bay,yet in the H.G management gives little or no regard to waste. The exclusion zones are where individuals and families seek rest and meaningful time out. Places where a five year old will catch their first fish,among the rolling dolphins,diving birds ,or some quiet bay. The best natural history class room on earth.They take the catch home,share in a family caught meal. So important in a increasingly fragmented society. That will all be gone. First they take away some of our fish,and now they want to take away the places we fish for them. Dont let them make you feel guilty for catching a few fish.It is your right. Just a couple of years back the infamous snapper cuts were upon us. People got into their cars and drove across their cities and towns to attend the nearest meetings. Others got into their utes and drove down the country roads to attend theirs. They believed they had something to offer. They believed in democracy, fairness ,and a shared fishery. After all they had been told about our shared fishery so many times before. The MPI reps were welcoming ,pleasant and shared what they knew. Not long after the meetings the decision came out. We took a cut in both our allowable take and another cut in increased size limit. Commercial had no cuts. Their faith in the shared fishery was gone, their faith in democracy a little bit less. The great grinding wheel of commerce ,and the parasitic elite had ground them down just that bit more. The towering but but fragile wall got a little bit higher. They went away. They said nothing ,did not act . But they remember. And now we see yet another attempt to blame us for the ills of the fishery. Dont believe it is your fault ,it is not. Consider how little recreational get out there during the snapper spawn.With the prevailing westerly winds october through to Jan,very few recreational get out there. Not enough to make any difference. And when we do in the few weather windows we pluck the odd fish out on our rod and line.We dont take the whole school. Be very aware of what is going on. Another attempt to grind you down. Dont let them walk over you. Not this time. |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 4:12pm
| You tell them " cirrus' they are not listening to you and I ,they know best,yeah right,tui award. |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 4:49pm
+ 100  . You are bang on and "there" are hidden agendas. As John Key used to say. "Implement them slowly and in small stages/steps". This way the majority will not care or notice and by the time they wake up it will be too late.------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 5:40pm
| One of the scary things about all this is that the government, council etc are going to claim that this plan represents the agreed view of all the stakeholder groups. Really there are probably complete 'no way' scenarios in this plan from the point of view of most rec fishers, but the process used will give the government the ability to claim that this has all been agreed between the stakeholders. When they then implement the changes that we don't want, but delay or fail to implement the changes that we do want, they will just say that it was all in the well researched, heavily consulted, and agreed plan. To me this plan is pretty scary as it is a lot like National's promise at he last election about reducing commercial fishing pressure. a whole lot of spin to confuse the public into thinking they are getting something, whilst in reality they are just getting robbed some more. |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 6:14pm
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Fair enough John H,no need to defend your self, At this stage the whole seachange has gone against what is good for the public and our rights, mpi ask for submissions and go against what the public submits,in the later case we would be our own worst enemy. out of 1000 fisherman 1 might be bothered to place a submission,1000 comms bet 500 would of submitted due to active lobbying and being properly informed on the issues not what one group thinks is best for all.
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Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 6:21pm
| John H - I can imagine the position you guys were in given the setup of this process. What I find really scary though is that the more you delve into the detail (reading it this avo) and try to interpret what it really means based on this governments history in relation to rec fishing, the scarier and scarier the report becomes. Whilst there is talk of good things like the shifting out of trawling etc (if I live long enough to ever see it), there is a whole lot of scary detail that based on our historic 'abuse' by the government would tends to suggest that rec fishing is in for a whole lot of bad news. Is that being overly pessimistic? |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 7:16pm
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3 years ago you were all warned about what was going to happen..Now I can sit back and watch all the knee jerk reactions..1 winner here...Commercial.fish farms...sorry and of course those reserves which will be dotted around all over the place...nek minute fishing license..don't say I didn't tell u so... my crystal ball was clear ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: marlinmarty
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 7:17pm
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Legasea legends may need to be supplemented by legasea warriors for the more actively inclined fishos. But I seriously advocate we do not derail legasea it's the only unified and organised voice we have available love it or hate it. It is seriously organised any new startup will just be a disaster. If we do not agree with some of the suggestions we sure a hell need to get vocal in 2017. In my own opinion MPAa. Are too permenant that is something I will want to debate pretty hard. ------------- http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 7:25pm
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To late to jump up and down...you guys should of been doing that long before the barn door was left open...How many times was I rubbished..these guys including Legasea have all jumped into bed with each other ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 7:44pm
public funding to keep flogging a dead horse if "legasea' were serious and you know this"marlinmarty" they would of followed through with tools they given back in April but instead,nothing,and the biggest problem is the Ex commercial fisherman Barry,i would not cannot trust him.Where is the maori voice?? silenced why?? It will come out shortly trust me time is running out.the old boys can only hide for so long. wolf in a sheep cloak springs to mind.
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 7:50pm
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Mooks Honeck..Scott Macindoe.Moana Fishieries.Fish Farms... ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 9:25pm
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Hi Guys What has taken you folk to wake up - this spatial plan for the Hauraki Gulf was raised as a topic on the Fisheries Management page back on 6th Dec. I will move the discussion to look at the other side of the argument. The Hauraki Gulf marine park should be retained for all users, no disagreement there. That includes divers, fisherman, sea bird watchers, yachties, power boaties, cruisers etc. Fisherman are only one part of the puzzle. Now coinciding with Sea Change's spatial plan release is two projects by MPI. 1) Fisheries sustainability for the future project http://www.mpi.govt.nz/news-and-resources/consultations/future-of-our-fisheries#background Have all you folk written your submission? It is due in on 21st Dec. Do not complain if you have done nothing. 2) MPI planning for Snapper Management in SNA 1, the goal to double the bio mass of snapper, great news - http://mpi.govt.nz/law-and-policy/legal-overviews/fisheries/snapper-1-management-plan/ Have you participated in this process yet? Nothing I see in the MPI consultation to date gives me confidence that they will make any decisions that will see a sustainable fishery in the Hauraki Gulf for my grand children. Now the Sea Change group have had a head start - they have a plan and a very detailed methodology to help MPI, The Hauraki Gulf Park leadership, plus have already surveyed the public etc. They have consulted with the Tangata Whenua. They are three steps ahead of MPI, because at Westhaven meeting with MPI, those folk would not discuss any of the options. I support much of Sea Change's plan. I would like to see more MPA's, a ban on set netting, a ban on dredging (develop a diver based scallop fishery), a ban on bottom trawling and netting so the benthic zone recovers. I see all that being for the betterment of the fishery and improving its sustainability. What is really wrong with a nature reserve on land having it surrounded with an MPA? Tiritiri Matangi and Rotoroa Island would make excellent combined reserve areas. And either will cater for the diver wanting to swim with snapper as per the Knights. I could be selfish and look at it solely for my interests, but I would like my grandchildren to enjoy the fishing, diving, marine live and boating. So look at the Sea Change plan as an option. There are going to be some hard decisions made, so do not moan start looking at what constructive options we have to improve the sustainability of our fishery. I would like to see Legasea's plan for the region and submission on MPI's Future Sustainability of the Fishery. Take part in the exercise and do not snipe from the sidelines and above all think above self interest. |
Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 9:55pm
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For a start Don I will moan I have download heaps of BS forms to fill out when a simple no way vote will do me. We went through all this with the snapper quota a few years back how they were going to look after the fishery with tidying up the comms, camera's onboard, GPS locators, etc but still we have dumpings happening. Oh yeah they also took two snapper off our daily limit. I think you are missing the point others are raising the fact is once all these areas are gone they are gone for good. Our most treasured and safest fishing spots are gone forever I won't agree to letting Tiri or any more of Kawau Bay being locked off. Shocking to even think that way. I am doing the form it feels like I have done this already
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Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 10:16pm
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Don - I think that there is a problem with a couple of your thoughts. The major one is that if the rec fishing community thinks outside it's own self interests they will be the only stakeholder doing so. Comms want $millions in compensation for any changes to their 'rights'. Maori want to take more control over the HG for their own 'cultural reasons'. The government want to generate more money from our fisheries by tying vast areas in fish farms, and the council are just itching to set up another bloated bureaucratic process to justify their existence and increase the funds they collect from the public. Unless there is a hard and fast direct link made to how my children will absolutely benefit from everything we will be asked to give up today, I don't support giving up any more than we have already had stolen from us. We are being taken for mugs by better organised and better politically connected groups aided by a government who thinks rec fisherman are just an annoying pest that should be swatted aside. As for Poor Knights style diving reserves around Tiri and Rotorua - currents and visibility. Too much of one and not enough of the other, plus too much boat traffic for proper safety. Have you been diving at Long Bay, or the marine reserve at the bottom of Waiheke? How about the marine reserve around the back of Gt Barrier? No one bothers because after years of being reserves they haven't achieved any significant change in local fish population. We have one of the biggest marine reserves in NZ running right through the middle of the HG (called the cable zone), but what has that achieved? No mass concentrations of fish or massive sources of food in that untouched sea bottom. You don't create a Poor Knights or a Goat Island just by tying up arbitrary bits of coastline, and you don't create abundance in fish that school over the open bottom by tying up pieces of rocky coastline. Might end up with a few extra crays and some reef species, but the occasional big snapper swimming in a reserve isn't creating mass abundance. You want mass snapper abundance you need to stop mass harvesting, clean up the environment, rebuild the sea bottom food sources, stop mass harvesting of the bait fish, and take care of the nursery areas up the harbours and estuaries. You want great diving spots you need to start by finding clean water. Why is there no proposal to create a reserve somewhere around Little Barrier? Good terrain, clean water, manageable currents, and only relatively minor importance to the rec fishing fleet. Hold on though, very important to commercial cray boats and maybe comm scallop boats (still?). Better not add that to the MPA list. There are some interesting options in the SeaChange report, and many that should be implemented. But here is a forecast for what happens - the only proposals that will get rapidly implemented are the ones that mainly affect the rec fishing community. The ones affecting comms will be tied up in 'negotiations' and legal battles. The ones giving significant control of the HG to Maori will be pushed through, and the MPA's to destroy the fishing pleasure of 1000's of rec anglers will be pushed through, as will a bunch of extra bureaucratic red tape to tie up the charter fleet and quite possibly fishing licences to fund all that extra bureaucracy. Of all the times ever for the rec community to jealously guard what little rights they have left, I reckon now is the time before it is too late. |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 10:29pm
The other thing to remember is that all the forms/surveys commissioned and paid for by these people will be slanted to achieve the desired answers. You may think you have disagreed and said so. However the way the questions are formulated allows the collaters to manipulate the results in favour of their clients. They will throw percentages around like confetti to confuse/defuse any contentious issues. I too have filled out the forms, lobbied my local politician, emailed the media and anyone I thought would be interested in Parliament, attended as many meetings as I could and I donate a small amount monthly to Legasea. Saving the Gulf and its diversity is an admirable goal. However this "we ALL must make sacrifices" rhetoric is a crock of guano. There is only one sector that will pay the price. As for the others. Some will get compensation and some, control/power over revenue generating assets/areas. As one poster mentioned before. There is probably only about 200 odd words with regard to the rec sector in the Seachange documents. Thousands of words on commercial and aquaculture et all. That about sums the rec sectors position up. As Don18025 says. They are all ready three steps ahead in the game and their lobbyists probably have their own swipe cards for access to the relevant Ministers and departments. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 7:06am
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All those comments are appropriate but none address the issues all Gulf users, just fishers. The important thing is that Tagit, Muppet, V8 and myself are taking part in the discussion, without which we will have a decision imposed on us. Where is the rest? Farmers (the largest land owners) in the Waikato have just woken up to the realisation that they are in the minority when it comes to protecting the Waikato River catchment from agriculture pollution. The Councillors know who votes for them (townies) and can push through change. The Sea Change folk are doing a better job presenting a future vision for the Gulf than MPI and Recreational Fishers and I expect they will have significant influence on the final model for managing the gulf. Their Chair Paul Majurey is a smart guy. They will gather the green, non fishing public, the yachties, the scuba divers all voters. At the moment the discussion here is about going fishing yesterday and I will be going out again tomorrow, which is the status quo - and many including MPI, Sea Change and lots of urban voters know that is not sustainable.
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Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 7:37am
| I think the motivation of Paul Majurey as Chairman of Sea Change is for maori to control the HC. It will be a template for the rest of NZ if he succeeds. |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 7:42am
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http://www.nzcpr.com/maori-fishery-reserves/
The Ministry’s smooth assurances encourage recreational fishers to support mataitai applications. The opportunity to trump the commercial fishing sector must seem heaven sent. What recreational fishers are not told is that they give up their precious common law rights. All recreational fishing in a mataitai is by way of privilege granted by the Maori owners. The very nature of privileges means they can be revoked at will. The Tangata Tiaki / Kaitiaki can make by-laws that determine the what, how, when, and where of fishing. Recreational can be excluded either by species or through a general closure. Iwi, hapu and whanau are exempt: mataitai by-laws don’t apply to fishing under customary rules. It’s one thing for recreational fishers to give up common law rights over particular shell beds and reefs. However it’s a very different story when it comes to giving up common law rights over thousands of hectares of prime recreational fishing area and tens of kilometers of coastline. Parliament never envisaged this sort of madness. Privileges are no substitute for rights. Only a fool would trade away common law rights to fish recreationally over huge areas of coastal water in return being granted a privilege based on someone else’s preferences. The important point here is that mataitai are no longer what Parliament intended. And no one is accountable. Politicians of the day, like Sir Douglas Graham, gave assurances that mataitai would be small and discrete areas. Now they don’t want to know and don’t care. ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 11:25am
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The "gloves need to come off" - otherwise non-maori recreational fishing, is going to be shafted. I had hoped that maori and recreational fishing interests would be aligned, but the cracks in that idea, are already showing. Mataitai areas are already in place, that give exclusive rights to local coastal communities (not only maori but in practise, they are). Now, proposed are MPAs that allow maori cultural take, plus the whole coastline out to km offshore, being controlled by maori. The Gulf "Spatial Plan:..... "was promoted by the Environmental Defense Society and sponsored by Auckland Council and Waikato Regional Council". That means, it was set up to further the desires of environmentalists, and then combined with local authorities, mainly maori interests. To make it look more wide ranging, token involvement was arranged from recreational fishing and commercial fishing. Obviously the power was carefully kept in environmental and maori. The result clearly is heavily favouring these two groups. Government, via MPI, does not appear to be seen in this initiative. This is very strange. They must be looking on with amusement (bemusement?). It is past time for government to take leadership. I have to say, that Legasea seems to have let recreational fishing down. They should have - - insisted on far more research and consideration in the plan for recreational fishing. There is huge detail about things that benefit Maori and aquaculture; but virtually nothing about how recreational fishing will be affected. - refused to agree to a draft plan, that does not protect recreational fishing. If Legasea is not going to stand up and fight on behalf of recreational fishing, its relevance is in question.
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Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 12:19pm
Just looked at this guys CV. You could be correct. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 12:28pm
"There are some interesting options in the SeaChange report, and many that should be implemented. But here is a forecast for what happens - the only proposals that will get rapidly implemented are the ones that mainly affect the rec fishing community. The ones affecting comms will be tied up in 'negotiations' and legal battles. The ones giving significant control of the HG to Maori will be pushed through, and the MPA's to destroy the fishing pleasure of 1000's of rec anglers will be pushed through, as will a bunch of extra bureaucratic red tape to tie up the charter fleet and quite possibly fishing licences to fund all that extra bureaucracy. Of all the times ever for the rec community to jealously guard what little rights they have left, I reckon now is the time before it is too late" As usual. Succinct and to the point. Cheers Dave. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 12:38pm
From the article: - "What to do. The strategy is simple. Take a lesson from Maori. When Maori want results they resort to direct action". Perhaps people will now listen, wake up and realize the state of enshrined Government, local and centrally legislated/mandated racism/separatism that now abounds over NZ. Not just the Hauraki Gulf fight that is coming. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 1:10pm
"All those comments are appropriate but none address the issues all Gulf users, just fishers". Perhaps. However could this be because in the document the rec sector has been relegated to the position of poor second cousin twice removed and treated as a non entity. As someone else said, approximately 200 odd words related to the rec sector yet thousand of words and many pages dedicated to the comms and aquaculture et al. About sums it up really. The rec sector is seen as a nuisance, not an equal or larger stake holder. Ironic given the numbers and money generated for the local economy. There are vested interests at play here. The rec sector is about to get shafted big time in favour of business and outdated cultural b/s. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 1:22pm
I no I am correct. I have met him in business in his capacity as leader of his iwi, at Russell McVeagh where he was a partner, maybe still is. You wouldn't believe it if I told you what was said by him. Ask Hoppers what they think?
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Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 3:59pm
"Sponsored by Auckland council and Waikato regional council" Sponsored really means funded. And considering councils actually dont have any money,it means we ,ratepayers are doing the sponsoring. Meaning we are actually paying for our own demise. |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 4:10pm
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Isnt this all going to get exciting,lol ..its taken the majority of you 3 years to smell the coffee..Fishing Licences , trip reports , register of boats ...get ready ....plus of course IWI control of the Gulf ,that will enable them to do anything they like .. Only one winner,commercial who will be moved out of the Gulf and suck up all the fish ,meanwhile we get the dregs and reserves all over the place ,fish farms will genetically alter Snapper as well .. Its taken 100 years for the Gulf to get to the state it is in, 95% of the decrease has been caused by Commercial ( thats in fish stocks of all species ) . Meanwhile pollution is now a major issue with rapid increase in Population and all is contaminants as result of .. I personally think the entire H/G should be commercial free except for local markets and a ban on all netting within for Coms and recs ,with a complete ban on all shell fish. Scallops should no longer be Dredged by Coms or Recs Crayfish need to be shut down to enable a rebuild which has been cleaned out over the past 5 years . Mussels be reseeded on mass As for MPA all over the place ? Its not going to work with commercial just sitting out side.. Except for resident fish ? The rest move around That includes crayfish.
------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 5:06pm
| If I remeber correctly the original plan was no take zones 1 mile offshore from any doc island,they were also no take from rakino to top of waiheke to musik pt,in effect closing off the inner harbour.This proposal has gone futher,apart from locking off areas for mpa,also includes comm only zones which I would take being the inner gulf,so reccreational will have no rights in the gulf. A few years ago the fisheries department looked at a chart and wanted to mussel farm the entire bon accord harbour at Kawau also Te Kouma, any where that was safe anchorage was to be taken for farming and I think it was the clubs of Auckland that got it stopped. |
Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 5:59pm
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Hi Mowerman I believe I am on the same page as you. I would support your suggestions on commercial fishing, netting and dredging and crayfish conservation. I am a keen diver of 40 years + and I have seen the depletion of the scallop and crayfish fishery. Planning a dive trip in my own boat to the Knights late January and early May for 2017. PJC, you are correct it was yachties who made sure many of the best anchorages did not go 100% mussel farming.....special thanks to them. The major yacht clubs have some folk with legal clout and influence and they did not want their anchorages taken over. They are still working on a watching brief of expansion plans for marine farms and ensuring the sustainability of the Gulf as a sailing playground. |
Posted By: Clutch
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 6:32pm
| Obviously the Hauraki Gulf should be commercial free. Charters only. |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 6:34pm
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Some where in the middle of all of this middle ground has to be found.. Yes Im against MPA all over the place as it will concentrate the pressure into small areas, result no fish ,these areas get thrashed then to death and of course the resulting problems of accidents . Something could be said for a ban on anchoring which must play its part on on environment damage.. But the trawlers have to go outside the Barrier in a line to Whangarei Heads ,that frees up and takes a hell of alot of pressure off fish stocks and the environment.. Commercial have more than enough fish outside to keep them happy ..they cant have it all ,this is where the current proposals are taking us all.. Remember the Government or Commercial dont own the fish ,it is a shared resource ...Commercial should not be in the breeding grounds .. At the end of the day folks its up to you to let this all be taken away from you or unity and a hell of a lot of noise. So far none of you have shown any signs of standing up for your rights,are you all going to sit back now and be dictated to by these idiots who only really support commercial...End of the day you will have ZILCH ...your choice !! Iwi control of the Gulf ,you were all fore warned this was going to happen ,they will set and dictate their agenda to us all ,anything that we were against MPI over will be like a walk in the park in the past ... They will manage and have gestapo around all over the place on the water,we will pay for all of this , Licences .. A revenue grab by Iwi who will hand it down the line with the Auckland Council
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Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 7:46pm
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You have to question why they are even thinking seriously about tying up more areas of the HG in fish farms. The government has put us on a path to massively increase Auckland's population, so there will be massive increases in the demand for already crowded anchorages each summer. So with all that pressure on the limited space available, where is the sense in tying it up in fish farms. Pretty much a raised middle finger from the government to all boaties. There is a project down Opotiki way (I think) to put a mussel farm out at sea. That I would support as there is plenty of open ocean for everyone. The problem of course is that it is cheaper to tie up the limited and highly valued sheltered areas close to shore than it is to put a farm in a place where it won't impact on anyone.
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Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 7:54pm
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They put a farm in kennedy bayand the tsunami we had from the japan quake wiped it out,tangled everything so a farm at sea might not work; You can where all this heading ,Boat registration and only affordable for the elite,already started with removal of all moorings in okahu bay 2017 so iwi can reclaim their seabed etc
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 8:26pm
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Out from Corromandel is zoned for fish farms. 300 hecs I think..that will be snapper and or kingfish.so mutations will occur with our wild fish..pollution and disease is an issue as well. Hopefully they won't target our pilchards.To feed them . Pellets from by catch and other matter maybe .But something goes wrong here impacts the entire gulf ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: John H
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 9:07pm
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We have been working on the MPI Future of our Fisheries (FOOF) proposals. This actually has a period for consultation and submissions (due 23 Dec). It seems the the Sea Change process had the consultation at the beginning, and the Plan at the end. We have a chance to influence the advice that MPI give to the the Minister on how our fisheries are managed in future. Not just in the the HG Marine Park but everywhere. Currently it seems most of the proposals in this thread, the Sea Change Plan and the FOOF proposals are guilty of "over reach", claiming more than is reasonable, exaggerating problems, overestimating the benefits of a new approach. For the last 10 months we have been supporting the need for a full independent inquiry into fisheries management and the role of MPI. A chance to override the positioning and personal opinions to get to a better place for all NZers.
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2016 at 10:17pm
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I Believe Legasea signed up and to be included had to agree with Seachange and all its proposels.Either in on certain terms or out with no say..I could be wrong with my words ..but Pjc knows the details.John Holdsworth was the person who let slip that. ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 12:49pm
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My understanding when Scott was asked to join seachange he said he would not go it alone and Trish has a say on board?my understanding that nothing can change unless ALL members agree to any proposal,it now appears as time has gone not to be the case and Scott(legasea) have had to roll over?pressure from above who knows but it all seems to me to against what "legaea' stands for."more fish in the sea and fish for the people" There has been no official statement newsletter from "legasea"as Christmas break John H I do apologise to you but there is a lack of communication coming out and what is made public seems to against what"legasea' has been trying to achieve.
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Posted By: John H
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 1:32pm
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Sam is working on some material on Sea Change now. It is a gap in communication. Currently we have the the submission on the South East Marine Protected areas due. By Friday we have to have the final Submission on MPIs FOOF in. What they are going to do with it over Xmas beats me. There is an HMS Fisheries Plan I have been asked to review. All of these have deadlines. At present Sea Change has a very vague process starting next year some time. I was not close to it but the series of 2 day meetings to finalise the Plan sounded truly horrific. The way I look at it the easiest thing to do would have been to walk away and get none of the fisheries management changes in the plan. They would have found another recreational fisher from somewhere. The hardest thing was to hang in there and get the best deal possible for recreational fishers. If you want to have a shot at someone how about Forest and Bird and EDS who were hell bent on having MPAs in the plan.
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 4:23pm
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John ,I take it the way you have worded your reply .. "get none of the fisheries management changes in the plan" So it was already agreed upon before Legasea sat down at the table ? They have already decided what the plan is ,everyone has to say yes ? as, >>> the series of 2 day meetings to finalise the Plan sounded truly horrific <<< Sea Change has a very vague process, has not this always been the case ?,things happen and no one knows until check mate .. MPAs even though they are needed should not lock out recreational fishers . The plan is Commerical Intrests first, MPAs second,Recreational Third..Tied in with this is Environmental which will hit Recreational the hardest, Commercial will be moved out so no impact on them
------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: John H
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 4:42pm
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MM From the little I heard there were plenty of changes to major parts of the plan all the way through. By the press release issued by Sanford they certainly don't think commercial fishers came out on top. Not really sure why you guys want to pick over the mechanics of it all. Looking for someone to blame?? Another reason why no-one wants to be on these stakeholder committees. Dammed if you do Dammed if you don't.
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Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 5:54pm
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Recreational need to stand up and grow some balls,do not be afraid to take to the streets like Aussies did. Nah kiwis like to lie down and be shafted then whinge afterwards. The Kiwi Way  Oh why didn't someone do something??
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 7:45pm
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'' Not really sure why you guys want to pick over the mechanics of it all. Looking for someone to blame " John in all due respect you dont know alot ... Firstly who appointed all these Iwi groups with out due process of Hui ? .. This is how it is done ...Not self appointed mouth pieces of mates which have run rough shod over all Maori...This is a fact The shady dealing obviously going on behind closed doors, That can be also taken as Fact Mooks Honneck of all people ,how the hell did he get in there ? None of my Iwi voted him in ,most despise him within Nagti Manahuri .. He is not even a land owner and goes everywhere with rent acrowd to give him the support ..He was also a bankrupt and was involved in Treaty Settlements while bankrupt, that is not legal. He is in with Nagti Wai who have there own Iwi taking them to court over shady dealings ...Fact is the rat trap will catch him sooner or later.. Scott thinks hes a great guy , which was let slip without Scott knowing who I was ... So do I trust anything ,ask yourself .What I speak is truth.. I say to you the Seachange set up is corrupt and only here to feather the nest of a few. Dont shoot the messenger ,the noises will only get louder .. Mooks we want gone ,its just not myself saying this within our Iwi... dirty washing ..there is alot of it and it needs washing I posted on F.net over 3 years ago about Mr Honneck,nothing has changed ,nor do I trust the motives of anyone involved with him... QUOTE "" The hardest thing was to hang in there and get the best deal possible for recreational fishers. "" We would all like to know the best part ..so say all of us .. Time for Legasea to look at itself " Fish for the People " Under Seachange there wont be with all the reserves with Recreational Fishers pushed into "Fishing only Areas". Hopefully Kiwis ( thats All Races ) will stand up and say NO... 9 fish to 7 fish to 30cm Fishing only areas ( because thats what the reserves create ) Fishing Licences,Boat registration ... recreational are being pushed out..there is no other words for for it .. The whole thing will become to costly for alot of folks.. Read the writing everyone ....put money on the table .. ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: CoastalStan
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 7:56pm
| I am surprised the charter guys aren't going nuts. Closing down the Mokes etc won't bother the cheap charter guys but it's not going to help the good ones that attract sport fisherman. |
Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2016 at 8:27pm
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Why don't we just give everything to iwi,what a joke. The year 2099 and they will still be asking for handouts . I'm sick of having maoridom rammed down my throat. ------------- dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you. |
Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2016 at 7:57am
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[QUOTE=mowerman]'' Not really sure why you guys want to pick over the mechanics of it all. Looking for someone to blame " John in all due respect you dont know alot ... Firstly who appointed all these Iwi groups with out due process of Hui ? .. This is how it is done ...Not self appointed mouth pieces of mates which have run rough shod over all Maori...This is a fact The shady dealing obviously going on behind closed doors, That can be also taken as Fact Mooks Honneck of all people ,how the hell did he get in there ? None of my Iwi voted him in ,most despise him within Nagti Manahuri .. He is not even a land owner and goes everywhere with rent acrowd to give him the support ..He was also a bankrupt and was involved in Treaty Settlements while bankrupt, that is not legal. He is in with Nagti Wai who have there own Iwi taking them to court over shady dealings ...Fact is the rat trap will catch him sooner or later.. Scott thinks hes a great guy , which was let slip without Scott knowing who I was ... So do I trust anything ,ask yourself .What I speak is truth.. I say to you the Seachange set up is corrupt and only here to feather the nest of a few. Dont shoot the messenger ,the noises will only get louder .. Mooks we want gone ,its just not myself saying this within our Iwi... dirty washing ..there is alot of it and it needs washing I posted on F.net over 3 years ago about Mr Honneck,nothing has changed ,nor do I trust the motives of anyone involved with him... Good on you for speaking your mind and no doubt getting a battering in the process. Appeasement and PC nonsense wins the day to often at the expense of the majority. Unfortunantly there are Maori leaders that take advantage for the wrong reasons.
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2016 at 8:14am
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THIS I POSTED IN Sept 2016....... And folks... Leagsea are in on he ground floor with the current SNAI management plan...Grab for the Gulf ... >>>>>>>Currently, there’s a scheme being executed to gain control of the Hauraki Gulf and its surrounds. It’ll give a few from 26 tribal groups incredible power over a massive and very critical 4,000km² body of water (from near Mangawhai in the North down to Waihi in the south, and beyond Great Barrier Island to the east), along with the significant land catchments bordering the entire eastern coast of Auckland, the extensive Hauraki Plains, the entire Coromandel Peninsula, and the many islands of the Gulf.<<<<<< Fiona Mackenzie, MBA, BA , Dip/Cert Tch worked as a teacher, before moving into the finance and investment banking industries, a marketing communications consultancy, and recreational project management. For the last 21 years, Fiona has combined self–employment with parenthood and voluntary work - as a board member/trustee, environmental and recreational worker, community fundraiser, teacher help, and political commentator. She is a passionate New Zealander. A Grab for the Gulf Print Friendly and PDF Posted on July 17, 2016 By Fiona Mackenzie The feeling of having been totally out-manoeuvred has become a common sensation amongst Auckland regional ratepayers – and they don’t know half of what is going on. This powerlessness extends to some of the well-meaning City Councillors who thought they were being elected to work for the people; they now see themselves as fall guys, taking the rap for conniving bureaucrats, greedy iwi and unscrupulous politicians. Latest Target Currently, there’s a scheme being executed to gain control of the Hauraki Gulf and its surrounds. It’ll give a few from 26 tribal groups incredible power over a massive and very critical 4,000km² body of water (from near Mangawhai in the North down to Waihi in the south, and beyond Great Barrier Island to the east), along with the significant land catchments bordering the entire eastern coast of Auckland, the extensive Hauraki Plains, the entire Coromandel Peninsula, and the many islands of the Gulf. Who will be affected by this? Think shipping, the Port of Auckland, aquacultural farms, commercial or recreational fishing, ferries, tourism, leisure, sport, every marina, ramp, buoy or mooring, and landowners – possibly even commercial air space, bridges and roads. And if there’s not enough money coming from these sources to fill the iwi coffers, there are always the defenceless ratepayers of Auckland City to squeeze a bit more from. Gross Dysfunction Since 2000, the Gulf has been managed by the Hauraki Gulf Forum with Auckland Council as its administering authority. Its board includes Ministry bureaucrats, elected representatives of all the region’s councils, plus 6 self-nominated tribal representatives appointed by the Minister of Conservation. Unsurprisingly, there has been gross dysfunction in the Forum. In his 2015 report, management consultant Dr Nigel Bradly put it down to the “inability or unwillingness of members to act as a ‘political peer group’…….the mismatch of willingness, understanding and expectations of members is at the heart of the failure of the Forum to promote the objectives of the Act.” This highlights the obvious − a fundamental conflict inherent in having elected representatives (some of whom are working in the public’s best interests, i.e. for the region’s environmental and economic health) and those of appointed, totally self-serving parties wanting to increase their power and wealth. Lack of Due Process ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2016 at 9:43am
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Its good to see the truth being aired, at last. The co-operative approach being practised by Legasea, hasn't worked. Its allowed others less scrupulous, to grab more power over what happens to the Hauraki Gulf. Basically, I think Legasea has been out-manoeuvred. They should have stuck to their guns, but instead, went along with a proposed plan that is extremely biased against recreational fishing. Now belatedly revealing that the recreational representatives didn't agree with it, is not good enough - as, that was not made known with the release of the proposed plan. We have had to try and figure out what is actually going on. From here on, obviously the group (maori/commercial fish farming) pushing the plan, will try and say to the government that its "consulted" and government should implement it. All bollocks. Legasea needs to change to a much more aggressive, militant style. If it doesn't it will lose much of its grassroots support. Specifically it needs to come out fighting, say publicly that it doesn't agree with the plan; and make clear that the "committee" that made it, was and is hopelessly at odds. This committee and this plan could then be stopped dead its up to us individuals to fight. I have started a discussion on this in the Neighbourly net work in Hibiscus Coast. And I intend to write letters to the local papers, telling about it. I am sure that there are many recreational fishing enthusiasts here that don't know whats going on. The vast majority of fishers don't belong to Fishing.net. The key objectives should be - kick up a fuss now - write letters to papers, aim to influence MPs, and ramp it up before the next government election. Remember the most important thing, will be which government gets into power. If it panders to maori separate privileges (as the current government has done), it will mean this plan, and others following no doubt, will go ahead. |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2016 at 1:17pm
Wonder how much a full page article in the NZ Herald would cost? Could Legasea ask for special donations to fund such a page? All the information/ideas/interpretations/concerns Mowerman, Tagit, Legasea and others have could be spelled out to the wider public. Legasea could then publicly state they do not agree with the document and do not agree with some of the people on it nor the way they were appointed. There is debate on here, debate on Facebook and we have Legasea. However I feel that a large percentage of rec fishers/public still have no idea of what is happening or even of the existence of the Facebook site, the Fishing.net site or Legasea itself. If this was to be done I guess there would have to be the usual legal checks and balances. I would contribute for such an action. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 9:43am
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Whatever your beliefs and arguments are, things are changing rapidly. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11771181 Support at the local level for Marine Protected Areas is growing and this court decision means local Government can make the decisions. I have no objection to more MPAs in the Hauraki Gulf, but not the numbers proposed by Sea Change.
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Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 10:16am
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I think theres too much arguing, and not enough doing. And if theres a committee, there would be too many disagreements, resulting in nothing being done, or weak compromises. If marine reserves are not stopped - one day (when Im dead thankfully) we will look out the window and see marine reserves all over the place, and not enough room for recreational fishing. I am sure that there is a large section of public opinion against marine reserves - evidence the local campaigns against reserves at Great Barrier and north Waiheke. A big notice in the Herald would be great, but not involving Legasea, as they would take over and continue their failed, conciliatory approach. And protests are needed, to get in the public eye. Also - stick on posters for car bumpers etc
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Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 11:53am
wheres the area set aside for power boat racing??all users need consideration.Thought I would through that one in 
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Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 11:54am
| The problem with all these steering groups is that they by default tend to include 'stakeholders' (Comms, Maori, Council, Recs) in equal (or sometimes less than equal) proportions. So the recs who make up maybe ~90% of the users end up with maybe 20 - 30% of the voting power. How on earth is this a democratic process? So in Auckland for instance you have maybe the Comms representing ~500 people, Maori representing maybe 50,000 Maori fishers (if they are truly representing all those people), Council representing whatever their own interests are, and the other 250,000 fishers getting marginalised. How did we end up with such a bloody unfair process? |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 12:11pm
| bit like 1 million people inAk and only 250k voted so you the elected members of those voted,i guess |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 12:37pm
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At least you had the option of voting if you wanted to. There is a real flaw when the steering group members represent conflicting views, and the minority groups have control. In a perfect world, Maori, Recs, and our council reps should all be aligned, but the sad fact is the council represent their own views rather than the electorate, and Maori somehow seem to have been given the priority view with everything non-commercial being pushed to their view. That appears to have set up the non-Maori rec community for conflict with Maori over what has traditionally been a shared resource. What a bloody clever idea. Just what this country needs. For the clarification of terms - I say 'Maori' not in the generic term of race, but to represent those who are on the steering groups supposedly representing Maori interests.
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Posted By: SaltyC
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 12:53pm
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The committee was not representative to start with (and I pointed it out to them at the time) with only 1 rec representative and he was originally from Whitianga so there was no representation for rec fishers west of the Coromandel or Auckland at all. They seemed unable to grasp the differing aspirations of fishers living in different areas at all. Then he pulled out anyway! The process was well captured before it even started. Whenever I tried to engage them they smiled nicely and looked away (metaphorically speaking).
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 1:23pm
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here is a curly one..".He said he would ask the council to immediately consider control measures, including a depth limit for fishing snapper."
------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 1:33pm
Perhaps rec fishers will be confined to 10m of water or less to limit barometric trauma to released fish. Depth does not matter too much with trawlers as many fish are crushed and already dead when brought to the surface. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 1:35pm
Recognise the economic, social and cultural importance of non-commercial fishing in FMA 1.
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Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 2:50pm
The maori only area do not really have a problem if it worked along the lines of,If iwi who were shore based(marae/pa by the sea)can prove this was their traditional fishing grounds before europeans and under the treaty were given their customary rights as long as it was for their original fishing grounds,Then yes they should have rights to said area and up to iwi to manage said area,same as if reccs were given their park it should be up to us THE RECCS to appoint a board to maintain our fish stocks,totally separate from mpi .MPI can then concentrate on commercial activities only. Locking off access around coast or islands will have an effect on those shorebased and in turn may have an effect on certain retail stores that cater for the shore based family guy who buys a child a rod and goes to the beach/wharf etc.might just give it away as who wants to travel 100km or so to take a child fishing? |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 3:58pm
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www.facebook.com/LegaSea
video explaining seachange yesterday at 1830 make up your minds
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Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2016 at 10:26pm
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Life just got tougher for fisherman. http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2016/12/dumped-native-seabirds-had-throats-slit-skulls-smashed.html If a fisherman (commercial or recreational does not matter) did this they have made Forest & Bird heroes and given the powers to be ammo to say fisherman do not care about their environment. WHat fisherman is up against is Public Outrage, often for very small incidents. Public outrage is very hard to combat and refute, especially in the public arena.
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Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2016 at 6:52pm
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I guess you guys will be into festive mode now. So, Im putting this thread to bed. Not finished though, by any stretch of the imagination - just starting. Seeya all some time in January. Sorry for all the clichés. Merry Christmas. ps agree with Don, killing birds is abhorrent. Ive been guilty of swiping at a few, not killing them.
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2016 at 8:33pm
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talk about birds,A couple of years ago came across 2 gannets on a trace with a hook in each of them . Caught them and dehooked .Very sad for wear they were and doubt the survival .But made me wonder as the trace looked liked it had been cut off with no attempt to try release them..But there must be some sick sons of B that we share the water with ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2017 at 8:22am
This is our future...controlled by Iwi..
Selection Body for Independent Māori Statutory Board Media Release Independent Māori Statutory Board Appointments The nine members for the next three year term of the Independent Māori Statutory Board (IMSB) for Auckland have been appointed by the statutory Selection Body. Their appointments begin on 1 November 2016 and continue to 31 October 2019.
Tame Te Rangi, Chair of the Selection Body, said the body is excited by the combination of excellence and leadership represented by the group selected for the next term of the IMSB. “The comprehensive and transparent selection process undertaken has ensured selections have been made thoroughly and on their merits resulting in high calibre representation for the Mana Whenua and Matāwaka of Tāmaki Makaurau,” Te Rangi says. “It is fundamental to the role of the IMSB that it promotes the issues of significance for the Mana Whenua and Matāwaka of Tāmaki and ensures Auckland Council acts in accordance with Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Those appointed for this term of the IMSB certainly have all the necessary skills and I am confident they will serve all Māori of Tāmaki Makaurau well over the next three years.” The IMSB acts to ensure Auckland Council takes into account the view of Māori in Tāmaki Makaurau when making decisions. The board works to improve Māori wellbeing and development for the benefit of all New Zealanders, particularly everyone who lives in, or visits, Tāmaki Makaurau. The Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009 provides for the appointment of a board to promote issues of significance for Mana Whenua and Matāwaka of Tāmaki Makaurau. For more information on the Independent Māori Statutory Board, see http://www.imsb.maori.nz/" rel="nofollow - www.imsb.maori.nz ENDS ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2017 at 8:46am
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The unfinished business of the Fisheries
Settlement ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: Clutch
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2017 at 10:13am
I like this quote...... The judge says he is confident that Maori were running a commercial fishery before 1840 |
Posted By: LegaSea Community Builder
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 10:43am
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Related to this thread, there was some excellent commentary on Sea Change proposals... see: http://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/seachange-discussion-tonight-radio-live_topic122865.html
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Posted By: worksux
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 8:45am
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Was reading the Whitianga informer over Xmas, It had a very good article written by Dal Minogue, all to do with sea change and the plans for our area. Couple of things that got me pissed was how they plan to extend the size of the Hahei, cathedral cove reserve and to open it up exclusively for local Maori and their cultural harvest. Also the plan is to set up a reserve around the Alderman Islands, rec fishing will still be permitted but ground fish like Paua and Crayfish are off limits unless your Maori, Seem they will set up other reserves just like these along the Eastern Coro coastline. This article and the reply from Iwi representation from Sea change is well worth reading http://www.theinformer.co.nz/pdf.ashx?id=151900 ------------- http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 9:38am
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in the future everyone of non Maori decent could well be paying a tax for the right to live here in NZ ( drink water from their rivers ,swim in their ocean or lake , ) Its getting out of control as all Iwi as doing is holding hand out and sucking up the gravy train..This is not a raciest comment ..Its aimed at the ones which are stealing it even off their own Iwi,Seachange Iwi would be a typical example..the fat cats get fatter .. http://www.nzcpr.com/waitangi-tribunal-doing-more-harm-than-good/
3. Treaty settlements make tribal corporations rich, along with the help of favourable tax status and often little or no rates to pay. So with these advantages, it’s pretty easy to become super profitable. But do you think the average Maori sees any benefit from this? None at all. I have been asked several times to be on trust boards and have been offered large sums of money to do so. I refuse. History will judge the kupapa (traitors) who have abandoned our people for money. 4. The tribunal is a bully. Go against it, and you will be labelled a racist or worse. Yet, who does it help? Apart from a few elite Maori who have become millionaires from the process, there is no benefit to Maori overall. Drive through Huntly or anywhere in Tuhoe and you won’t find any evidence of these multi hundred million dollar settlements. Let’s be clear. The Tribunal exists to make lawyers, and a few elite Maori very rich, and to give the impression that wrongs are being righted. We all know the Crown breached the Treaty in the nineteenth century. But by the time of my parents’ generation, this was behind us as a people…until the Tribunal dragged it all up again. I will finish with a warning. If you think the claims are nearly at an end, think again. Hundreds of new claims are being planned right now. These will challenge the Crown and seek compensation for the handling of the current settlement process. Too many people have too much at stake for the claims process to end. ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 10:47am
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Maori and recreational anglers should be natural allies in fighting commercial excesses. The government however appear to have given Maori extra 'powers' and even worse, extra expectations. I assume in trade for political support. What that leaves is the badly under-represented rec sector fighting the government, comms, and now Maori for a less than 5% share of the fisheries that the public owned 100% of 30 years ago. When a government is happily trading your birth rights to gather up political support for their own objectives, you really have to ask yourself whether you still want those guys in power. Unless you tell them very loudly that you consider their mode of managing our fisheries to be a vote losing issue, they aren't going to change. Time to start hitting every MP you can with emails telling them that this is a deal breaker in your confidence about how they govern. Until they get scared enough, we will just keep losing our rights. If you haven't done so yet, read the Sea Change document. If you look at all the detail, it is a very scary thing to read and it outlines the almost complete loss of your recreational fishing rights over the next generation.
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Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 12:59pm
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Seachange is not about the health or sustainable use of the Gulf. It is political,about who controls or owns what. Marine exclusion zones are political,designed to get the urban greens on side,and get backing. They should be called Recreational exclusion zones. It is all aimed at excluding recreational more and more ,step ,by step. Reduced bag limits ,increased size limits are also part of a psychology to discourage recreational fishers. All part of the continued fish grab by commercial. No you wont see a fishing exclusion zone for instance in the colville Channel where much commercial fishing takes place . Have seen that area look like a small town at night with all the lights out there. Things are closing in. You had better grab what you need and grab it fast,because just over there the law makers pen is poised to draw more lines in the sand against recreational and that means you and i. |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 1:06pm
Yes to stay in power lets suck it up ...Makes me wonder how long this will continue before people say enough is enough,The gravy train and our rights .Im not sure if another party gets in things will change as a president has been set... they will keep refer back to this for more , much much more, water and waterways are next ..Iwi tax on all drinking water in the future ! ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 5:37pm
Agree totally. The last paragraph, especially the last sentence of the last paragraph should worry all New Zealanders. The problem is we need more people like the author and yourself to stand up and say enough is enough and you are sick of the wedge being driven between people. From discussions with my inlaws, some who disgree with what is happening, it seems to be a case of having their cake and eating it to. One poster here has already mentioned in reply to one of my posts that they are also sick of the Treaty malarkey. What have they done about it, if anything. Those New Zealanders of Maori descent who disagree with the guano going on are deafening in their silence. Third article of the Treaty (Maori version) For this agreed arrangement therefore concerning the government of the Queen, the Queen of England will protect ALL the ordinary people of New Zealand and will give them THE SAME RIGHTS and duties of citizenship as the people of England Seachange as it stands, will tend to drive that divisive wedge deeper. Whether you agree with Seachange or not. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 8:12pm
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Seachange as it stands, will tend to drive that divisive wedge deeper. Whether you agree with Seachange or not. That wedge will be a rift by the time Seachange give Iwi special rights and exemptions at the Cost of all other NZ Citizens instead of equal shares with all common New Zealanders thats Iwi ,Maori and all other races All shell fish,rock crabs ,seacucumbers, seaweed, should be no take now ,that is to everyone including Iwi ,only exemption being Kina. A total ban on Auckland region Beaches and Harbours . If they focused on Reserves and pushed Commercial out..It is fact they are in breach of the own bylaws by allow them to fish inside 12nm ( resource management act ) ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 5:34pm
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Wasn't there a quote in the treaty that went something like "now we are all one people". What a fkn joke. I'll keep fishing,stuff em and their one sided laws/dreams. ------------- dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you. |
Posted By: LegaSea Community Builder
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 9:47am
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Um, really want to say this with tact and sensibility, my opening line is this: the bottom line of Sea Change is a better Hauraki Gulf for all stake holders. LegaSea's involvement with the other stake holders was always on that basis, a better Hauraki Gulf (i.e. abundance etc). I'm not trying to take sides but point out the spirit and principles of what the intent was behind Sea Change. I seem to be reading a lot of fear in people's sentiments regarding Maori's role in the governance of the local fishery. While not completely unfounded, let's not get carried away. Regarding Ahu Moana, this approach to local governance is a joint 50:50 approach between local iwi and local COMMUNITIES. Any decisions to limit rec/commercial fishing will be based on that relationship (which I would imagine involve rec/comm representation within that group, can't imagine that not being the case). This model calls all parties to play nicely for the sake of their local area. How it plays out for each area will depend on the players I would imagine and their relationships. Regarding the comments about Sea Change tending to drive a wedge between parties, How would this happen if the local stake holders are working together for the good of the fishery? If the local stakeholders can't agree, nothing's going to happen, no one is going to get locked out. Agreement and collaboration will depend a lot on the attitudes that people bring to the table and their willingness to work together. It would appear to me that building bridges and relationships would be the way to successful local management. If you would consider this scenario - if you were on the local committee of your area alongside all the other stake holders, how do you think you would get along in helping your local fishery? It's a serious question because I could certainly see some of the members on this forum who are heavily involved in their local fishing scene (clubs community etc) actually being on the local governance committee's, making decisions about rec and commercial fishing access. Would you have strong reactionary attitudes toward other stake holders or would you be objective in trying to accomplish abundance and longevity of the local fishery/ecosystem? |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 10:25am
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That is the 'nice' scenario Scott. Unfortunately the forever history of our fisheries says that Commercial interests and Maori interests will get met at the expense of the recreational sector. How is Ahu Moana supposed to help protect Rec interests when we (the largest stakeholder group by many times) will end up by design with very minority representation. If Maori and rec interests were aligned things might be different, but the government has successfully driven a wedge between those two groups with Maori interests effectively looking to take a major role in recreational fishing management via the Ahu Moana process. Whilst we all want to see more fish in the sea, the recreational sector need to realise this current process could easily end up with more fish in the sea, but they won't be allowed to fish for them. I have absolutely no faith in the 'she'll be right' thinking that everyone will play nice. It isn't going to be that way and we all know it if we bother to look at the history of our fisheries. This is where I personally have a major issue with much of what is going on. everything is being justified by improving the marine environment, but no one is protecting the recreational sectors future access to that environment. There can be a billion snapper in the Hauraki Gulf, but if these are all controlled under Ahu Moana type management you may not be allowed to catch even one. The commercial fleet are however protected by law due to their 'property rights' given under the QMS system. So a big question - is there any legislation in place to control what can be done to recreational fishing access under Ahu Moana? I think that the answer is no from what I have read. What does Ahu Moana possibly mean (some case examples from what I understand) - The Waitemata Harbour could be closed to Recreational Fishing, The Rangitoto and Motihue Channels could be closed to recreational fishing, in fact the entire area between Waiheke and Motutapu/Rakino/Rangitoto/Motihue etc could be closed to rec fishing. Pretty much 90% of where people fish today could be closed to recreational fishing at the whim of local Maori with maybe the support of a commercial operator or two who are on the committees. So Maori win through customary access to the areas with improved stocks and comms win through reduced recreational take. What do we get, and do we think that scenario is impossible?? Of course those committees making these decision may need 'funding'. I wonder where that might come from. Rec licensing to fund Ahu Moana committees anyone? The last discussion I had with local Maori about our Waitemata habour was when I asked a boat to slow down instead of running through the marina at 15knts endangering everyone around them. The response was - "we are Ngatai Whatua. You know what that means? It means we own the f--ing water all right!!!" I have no reason yet to believe that isn't a much wider held belief and no reason to trust that Ahu Moana won't just become the process by which that belief is enacted. Now, please reassure me that I have totally misunderstood what is written in the SeaChange document.
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Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 10:53am
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Well written Dave..trust them..Sure can't..Legasea role will be to suck it up as your out voted and out manoeuvred. Remember of course their close involvement with Iwi..so pick your glass of poison..they are all full of the same ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: letsgetem
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 11:44am
| I cant shut up either. The latest response from legasea, is exactly the kind of vague hope that I have absolutely no faith in. With that weak opposition, they (environmentalists and maori), will drive right over recreational fishing. Naïve I call it. |
Posted By: LegaSea Community Builder
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 11:57am
| Will answer in full soon, however, before I do, perhaps you could provide a model of co-management that will work with relevant stakeholders? I would be very keen to see your ideas on how to make co-management work? |
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 12:17pm
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Maori/pakeha are one in my view. Maori migrated to NZ,moved in and settled. Maori claim Tangata whenua people of the land. Now in my mind our forefathers migrated to nz back in 1870 so seeing how I am born here.I must be Tangata whenua as through birth am a person of the land.??
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Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 12:39pm
| I am not so much suspicious about Legasea themselves Mowerman. I am pretty convinced that some very dedicated people are doing their best for us as they see it. What I am concerned about is the political maneuvering and the rec sectors seeming inability to get fair representation. That leaves Legasea in what I see as a very difficult position where they are pretty much the default representative for the rec sector but they haven't got enough 'power' to achieve the goals we are after. I get frustrated by what I see happening, but I don't see this as a 'Legasea issue'. It is an issue about all of the rec angling community and how disjointed and complacent we are. Some can get annoyed by what they see Leagsea doing some times, but what we are seeing is the result of being at the mercy of the better organised and financed groups who want our fish. You can't stand back and judge someone for not achieving the end goals in a short period when all they are in a position to do is minimise the compromises. |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 12:40pm
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We are all one people..except some like to feather their own nest in the name of grievances from the past under the impression it is for all ..99.9 % of their respective Iwi get nothing..The Iwi groups on Seachange are technically illegal .no due process..Some have shady characters and cant be trusted..In my view none of them can be..Cup of tea time bed mates ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |
Posted By: fish-feeder
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 12:43pm
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Maori changed the term tangata whenua to its present meaning long ago,it used to refer to "those here before us". Are they going to give anything back to the waitaha or ngati hotu and other people that they took land from? What does anyone born in nz owe them? Pot and kettle me thinks. ------------- dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you. |
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 12:59pm
This worries me. "Regarding Ahu Moana, this approach to local governance is a joint 50:50 approach between local iwi and local COMMUNITIES" Why is it 50 50? Are New Zealanders of Maori descent not classed as members of the community? If not, why not? If this is because you and others believe the Treaty was a "partnership". Then you believe in a modern day fiction. To top it off, if you believe there will be a 50 50 consensus between Iwi and the wider community, you are kidding yourself. Just like local and central Government, once the cultural blow torch is applied you can forget the true meaning of consensus. The truth is they are human beings like everyone else and if you open the door they will push it fully open unless someone has the strength to resist. Human nature unfortunately. That door was pushed ajar in the seventies when the Treaty was finally ratified and made legal then reinterpreted as a "partnership". It has been pushed open more and more since then and getting wider yearly. As one poster mentioned earlier. Seachange is being pushed and marketed as a Gulf protection mechanism tugging at the hearts and minds of those who do not fish and the environmentally aware. However, in reality it is a power/control/revenue grab. In fact, thinking about it, the same modus operandi was used when pushing the TPPA. Working together, good for the country, good for business, good for the individual while behind the scenes unfettered protection, access and control was being handed over to overseas corporates. Lastly and his also worries me. I have spoken to many fishers that come in and am not joking, nearly 100% of them have never heard of and have no idea what Seachange is or involves. I point them in the right direction with no guarantee they will even bother following it up. This is the real rec sector killer/enemy. Apathy. ------------- Legasea Legend Member |
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 1:35pm
The number 1 requirement would be for the stake holders to be proportionally represented. Right now the by far largest stakeholder group (rec anglers) appear to have the least representation in pretty much every forum. The argument that Maori of today have more knowledge of how to manage the resources through ancestral connections than people of other races with strong connections to the sea is to me political rubbish. We should not be judging peoples ability to manage our resources based on race in 2017. Knowledge and empathy with the environment must be the key selection criteria. In the same way, why on earth would you include any commercial fishers in the management groups other than those local guys that fish flounder, eels, mullet, shellfish etc and have a strong connection to the local communities. The history of commercial fishing in NZ (like the rest of the world) is one of mass excesses until pulled into line by regulation. There are apparently some great examples of local communities managing their fisheries (I think the Shetland Islands might be the classic example usually quoted), but they don't have multiple competing interest groups operating under different legislations like we do. They really are managing the fishery for the best interests of a well connected local community. We in NZ are facing the issue of commercial fishers operating under the QMS with their 'property rights' making anything that affects them an issue for the courts. Then we have Maori with their enshrined customary rights, plus seemingly a whole raft of 'new rights' currently being proposed. Then we have the largest stakeholder group of maybe 1 million plus people who have no rights other than seemingly the minimum that the government thinks they can get away with giving them. If we are going to have local management of near shore fisheries, the management needs to be properly representative of the users of that fishery. There needs to be rules about how the management teams are selected. There needs to be rules about what they can and can't do so that decisions are based on real facts rather than political decisions. There needs to be a central management forum of the right people who can review and audit any contentious local management decisions. There needs to be an equality enshrined in the decision making so that any decisions regarding closures etc are equally impacting on all interest groups. That is how you might end up with effective local management that is driven by the real issues rather than self interest and political objectives. Just as a note - did you spot that these Ahu Moana management groups have no say in whether Aquaculture farms are set up in their areas. Government obviously thinks they don't want to have their plans impeded. Pretty sure that Maori get automatic rights to 25% of all new aquaculture space as well don't they? So the only people who don't want aquaculture to expand all over the place are the recreational anglers who see the environment being degraded, fishing areas closed off, and anchorages etc disappear. So since only the rec anglers will be unhappy about this, lets make sure they have no say in the process via any Ahu Moana connections. So what can these management committees actually do? - They can stop localised commercial take, but only to the point where the well funded industry don't challenge it in the courts - They can stop recreational take, which of course can't be challenged as it is being proposed - They can't stop customary take So what do you think the main fisheries management actions will/can be from the management committees? For shellfish beds etc it would be really good to have more precise local management of local areas, but you can guess they won't be able to close commercial boats out of their favourite scallop beds. I doubt they will close off commercial fishing from their favourite crayfish spots either. Those could be really interesting debates. Still, more precise management of pipi, kina, cockle, mussel, paua etc would be a good thing as long as it was managed equitably.
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Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 2:05pm
The simplest and most reliable way to see the ACTUAL intentions long term of these sort of organisations is the extrapolate out the direction they are looking at...beyond what they state at the time... Also look at some of the people behind it.. not those who support the stated concept at any given time... and see just how many they tend to turn over when they realise they are their for PR/ image/ propaganda purposes. Extrapolate the direction and one comes up with control of the resource by a few... who also have interest in control of the economics of it and their own long term personal financial benefit from it... Im sorry to see Legasea being sucked into the short term superficial intention/ benefits and cant see the long term politics / direction this self appointed organisation is going. |
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 3:59pm
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Settlement assets will be allocated on a region-by-region basis, based around the jurisdictions of regional councils and unitary authorities. The exception is those harbours identified in the second Schedule of the Māori Commercial Aquaculture Settlement Act - where settlement assets will be allocated to iwi whose rohe abut that harbour. I am not so much suspicious about Legasea themselves Mowerman. I am pretty convinced that some very dedicated people are doing their best for us as they see it. What I am concerned about is the political maneuvering and the rec sectors seeming inability to get fair representation. That leaves Legasea in what I see as a very difficult position where they are pretty much the default representative for the rec sector but they haven't got enough 'power' to achieve the goals we are after. I get frustrated by what I see happening, but I don't see this as a 'Legasea issue'. Legasea have got involved some some rotten eggs who are also close to Legasea..at grass roots level All Iwi groups are self appointed mouth pieces .. Quote JH " we signed up to it any way " check PJC on the exact wording for this .. But as sure as the sun rises in the East Each day ... Quote Steps "one comes up with control of the resource by a few" Quote moaner man who or what ever you like to call me ... 3 years ago you were all warned about what was going to happen and all I got was bricks thrown at me.. But be warned ...If you want a fishery you had better start standing up for it or you will be shut out ...this is what is going to happen . The winners will be Iwi... supported aqua culture/fish farming/commercial fishing ...The Government have given them the fisheries .. "The Treaty guaranteed Māori their fisheries for as long as they wished to retain them."
And Te Arawa Lakes Trust wants only iwi members catching a number of treasured species including whitebait, kakahi and eels... THERE IS MORE TO KIWI THAN IWI….. … most kiwis would be horrified if they knew that National is planning to give away control of our lakes and rivers to iwi…. …We think it is only a matter of time before iwi demand a royalty every time a tap is turned on… THERE WILL BE NO END If Maori leaders gain control of New Zealand’s fresh water, it will be forever. By remaining silent you will be allowing this to happen and it will be future generations that pay the price. ------------- The People Protest Actions Speak Louder Than Words |