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Forum Name: Politics - Have your say
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URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=121954 Printed Date: 18 Apr 2024 at 7:42am
Topic: So,,,, Trump or Clinton?Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Subject: So,,,, Trump or Clinton?
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 5:27pm
It is beyond belief these two are the best the US can scrape up as POTUS, but by crikey it is close. So, who do you folks pick? Personally, I go for Clinton, if only because she is less likely to wreck to world in a fit of pique than The Donald. Anyone else got any thoughts? What are the rammifications for NZ either way?
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Replies: Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 6:09pm
The thought of Trump winning scares me. The guy appears to be a complete narcissistic nutcase. Clinton may not be the best other choice, but really it is a case of abadt (anybody but a Donald Trump. You really have to ask yourself what is so badly wrong with US society that they ended with these 2 as their choices.
I reckon that there is a huge underlying issue facing all the Western world at this time. It is called 'out of control immigration'. The Brits voted to leave the EU over this and Trump could get elected over it. Countries all over Europe are closing their borders as much as they legally can and the refugees fleeing northern Africa are creating massive political and societal issues as a result. The Aussies are trying to shut their borders as well, and we in NZ have a massive issue with lack of infrastructure because our borders are so open. Racial tensions are only going to get worse as we go on like this. Immigration moving faster than integration and assimilation is a very scary thing, but whilst our current government think there is a buck in it they will keep plowing on. A bit like our fishing really.
Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 7:28pm
Yeah its about people numbers equaling profit in the long term for big buisness. Key knows it too its all long term planning for his buddies.
Yeah Clinton for me. Trump condemns himself every time he opens his mouth.
Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 8:13pm
Trump scares me too. At very best his opening speech would be "America your fired" Trump is a showman-little more. His election would bring regret just like Brexit.
Election of Trump could lead to economic collapse and ww3 according to some commentators
He has said he may not support NATO as the U.S supports NATO now. NATO would be weakened.
Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 8:45pm
Trump !!!!
------------- Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 8:46pm
I think Trump would not be good for the likes of us. Who is the lesser of two evils, I don't know. As for Clinton, she is a war mungering b###h just like Obama and Bush and hopefully she spends many years in jail for her crimes. They control the media and feed the people of America lies and propaganda. Intent on running their gas pipe through Syria no matter the cost to civilians. Neither Clinton or Trump are fit for the job. But if I had to vote, I'd vote Trump. I need more wine!
------------- Top 10 finish 2024 Grunter Hunter.
Posted By: The Tamure Kid
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 8:54pm
totally agree Capt A.
It almost felt like Trump entered as a ploy to raise his profile, or for a bit of a laugh. At first I doubted he actually believed the rubbish he was spouting. like I imagined him coming off stage and saying to his cronies 'can you believe they bought that?'. But then he started to gain traction, and the lack of a credible opponent in the Republican movement became obvious. Quite staggering, given the size of the place. Particularly how many of the supposed top candidates fall out of the race due to marital infidelity or some other issue.
then you've got Clinton, who unbelievably stayed with Bill all those years, despite the affairs and whatever, but obviously was playing some kind of long-term deal with Bill and his mates to further her own political ambitions. Hard to not get elected when up against someone as divisive as Trump, but the saga with the emails etc is costing her.
The big question is, will Trump getting elected make buying fishing gear from Tackle Direct cheaper or more expensive?
Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 10:18pm
Trump is a buffoon, but at least he's honest enough to say exactly what he thinks. Clinton is a lying, thoroughly evil piece of work. The US stands a much higher chance of being at war with Russia with her in charge. She stands for the ruling elite and will shaft ordinary Americans at every chance. If it wasn't for her power and influence she'd be in prison by now.
How, out of a country of millions, it came down to these two is a mystery.
I've said for a long time it will be trump, the polls are wrong because there are a lot of Americans planning to vote for him that don't want to admit it.
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 10:56pm
Kevin.S wrote:
Trump is a buffoon, but at least he's honest enough to say exactly what he thinks. Clinton is a lying, thoroughly evil piece of work.
Have you actually listened to Trump?? As far as I can work out he can't open his mouth without either lying or trying to twist the truth. He has made countless statements that are just complete fabrications that he has invented to try and confuse people or take the heat off his other seriously scary moments when he has confessed to what he really thinks. Scary, scary man.
Posted By: Sufishent
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 7:06am
Tagit wrote:
Kevin.S wrote:
Trump is a buffoon, but at least he's honest enough to say exactly what he thinks. Clinton is a lying, thoroughly evil piece of work.
Have you actually listened to Trump?? As far as I can work out he can't open his mouth without either lying or trying to twist the truth. He has made countless statements that are just complete fabrications that he has invented to try and confuse people or take the heat off his other seriously scary moments when he has confessed to what he really thinks. Scary, scary man.
We all know he's lying BUT he's telling the average American what they want to hear. He has realised that the average Joe is buying rhetoric and that's what he's giving them - and they're the ones that will count, not us unfortunately.
------------- You can never have enough fishing tackle
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 7:46am
Reminds me of a long ago election.. Barry Goldwater think it was.. not as bad as Trump thu. Same sort of lead into election day, then on the day got wiped badly. Hopefully the Yanks have enough sense to do so again. In saying that, one has to question the Yanks "sense" to even put forward / vote such a candidate in the 1st place beggars belief...And that is what worries me...
How to upset a Yank.. Tell them to look up yank in the dictionary... then tell them not to, knowing they will not take any notice of that anyway....
Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 8:53am
One thing about this, while it's been interesting to watch from a distance I don't think I'd like to be in the position of deciding which of those two were to be the next president. Do they have a "none of the above" box in a presidential election?
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 9:04am
Yeah, the libertarians.
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 9:14am
I don't think I'd like to be in the position of deciding which of those two were to be the next president.
Simple .. which one scares u the most? And the scary thing, those who do vote like that , tend to vote someone else.... or not at all.... which results in the worst of the 2 evils winning. Which in some ways is how Hitler got voted in Theres a Thought....
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 2:16pm
Tagit wrote:
The thought of Trump winning scares me. The guy appears to be a complete narcissistic nutcase. Clinton may not be the best other choice, but really it is a case of abadt (anybody but a Donald Trump. You really have to ask yourself what is so badly wrong with US society that they ended with these 2 as their choices.
I reckon that there is a huge underlying issue facing all the Western world at this time. It is called 'out of control immigration'. The Brits voted to leave the EU over this and Trump could get elected over it. Countries all over Europe are closing their borders as much as they legally can and the refugees fleeing northern Africa are creating massive political and societal issues as a result. The Aussies are trying to shut their borders as well, and we in NZ have a massive issue with lack of infrastructure because our borders are so open. Racial tensions are only going to get worse as we go on like this. Immigration moving faster than integration and assimilation is a very scary thing, but whilst our current government think there is a buck in it they will keep plowing on. A bit like our fishing really.
"You really have to ask yourself what is so badly wrong with US society that they ended with these 2 as their choices". Disillusionment with the status quo. Legislation that lets the rich get richer, in other words corporate welfare, the attacks on the middle class to pay for this corporate welfare, the way banks, finance companies and big business have control over the Government and its purse strings et al. That is how the Don got there. He is talking the talk. However I believe he is a total hypocrite and narcissist. The same thing is happening in NZ and around the world. Hence the low voter turn outs in elections and things like Brexit. The worm is starting to turn. There is too much of the worlds wealth/resources in too few hands. For the worm to turn fully, this is not enough. There will unfortunately be violence. History repeating itself. yet again.
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 3:04pm
kitno wrote:
I think Trump would not be good for the likes of us. Who is the lesser of two evils, I don't know. As for Clinton, she is a war mungering b###h just like Obama and Bush and hopefully she spends many years in jail for her crimes. They control the media and feed the people of America lies and propaganda. Intent on running their gas pipe through Syria no matter the cost to civilians. Neither Clinton or Trump are fit for the job. But if I had to vote, I'd vote Trump. I need more wine!
Obama has been gutless. All talk and no action. Hence the sabre rattling from Putin.
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 3:07pm
Kevin.S wrote:
One thing about this, while it's been interesting to watch from a distance I don't think I'd like to be in the position of deciding which of those two were to be the next president. Do they have a "none of the above" box in a presidential election?
I think I heard somewhere that they have the option of putting someone else's name on their ballot if they do not want to vote for those listed. Could be wrong. Probably am. .
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: OneWayTraffic
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 3:33pm
You can put whatever you like on a voting slip. It won't matter in the slightest, unless you tick Trump or Clinton. Then again a vote for Trump in a safe Democratic state won't matter at all (think California), likewise a vote for Clinton in Alabama.
I haven't met either of the two personally, but one thing that comes to me is that not many who have actually met Hillary have bad things to say about her. That is not true of Trump.
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 5:05pm
Hillary is going to pick a scrap with Russia by all accounts over Syria ,creating a no fly zone...Russia has combat aircraft on the ground there and in use...
------------- The People Protest
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 7:05pm
I think it is telling that previous republican presidents have said they intend to vote for Clinton......
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 7:38pm
Capt Asparagus wrote:
I think it is telling that previous republican presidents have said they intend to vote for Clinton......
Because they're also part of the war machine.
------------- Top 10 finish 2024 Grunter Hunter.
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 8:14am
Big money in wars.Without wars the Americans would go broke ..Clinton will most likely win ,but its close so you never know whose ears they pull out of the hat ...Dr Yeckel or Mss Hyde
------------- The People Protest
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 8:52am
mowerman wrote:
Big money in wars.Without wars the Americans would go broke
How does that work? Wars might make the money go around internally, but they are still a massive drain on public finances. Look at history and even the winners normally come out of a war with massive public debt.
Posted By: NZR
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 9:21am
I am so very much looking forward to this all being over.
My husband is American and it is just about all anyone has tried to make small talk with him about for so long now, I would have lost it hahah. He's been here nearly 10 years but there's no escaping that accent.
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 9:24am
Only just clicked to something funny about US politics. Unlike the whole of the rest of the world, their conservative party (right wing) is coloured red and their liberal party (left wing) is coloured blue. My guess is that their coastguard service chose the colours. That will explain why their red and green navigation markers are the reverse of the international standards as well. Had a US hire customer earlier this year who does skipper training back in the US. He took great delight in taking photos of our nav bouys so he could take them back to confuse his students with.
Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 9:39am
Just hope the election goes well and they get the right outcome.
American people are great people and deserve the best.
But whatever the outcome ,whoever gets in has to face a Nuclear Nth Korea, a broke ,money printing economy,and a broke deutshe bank. If deutshe bank goes belly up ,with trillions of off balance sheet derivatives then expect the biggest storm of our life time. As for the war machine. Other countries have them too. Take that balance away and we would see aggression from the remaining war machines to fill the gap.
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 12:15pm
Tagit wrote:
mowerman wrote:
Big money in wars.Without wars the Americans would go broke
How does that work? Wars might make the money go around internally, but they are still a massive drain on public finances. Look at history and even the winners normally come out of a war with massive public debt.
Other peoples wars and even their own. All weapons/munitions manufacturers are selling to both sides of all conflicts around the world, including terrorist groups, while claiming not to be. Many politicians have big investments in the armaments industry. There is an old saying, forgive me if I do not get it 100% correct. "When there is blood on the ground there is money to be made". Their country may go broke, however their personal bank accounts will be filled to over flowing.
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 3:26pm
Suddenly its a real nail biter. Markets responding. Gold soars,Wall St futures down and Nato puts 300 000 extra troops on high alert over perceived Russian threat to Baltic states .
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 3:52pm
There was/is some famous prediction from the past that says that the USA getting it's first black president is an indicator that the world is going to end (somehow). What the prediction didn't foresee was that it would happen when he left office. How can any sane person vote Trump into power? It defies belief!!!
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 4:46pm
Well, it looks as if they have. Un-frikken-be-frikken-lievable
It seems that we are likely to be living "in interesting times" for the next few years now.
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 6:10pm
Not so sure about the 'living' part once DT gets his finger on the nuclear trigger. I am sitting here is staggering disbelief that the US people could be so frickin stupid. Even if they like some of his supposed policies, do they really expect him to carry through with anything that doesn't enhance the personal world of D Trump??? DT in the US and Putin in Russia - scary, scary times.
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 6:15pm
Trump going to..least the wars will be scale back..ttpa.in the bin
------------- The People Protest
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Posted By: Muppet
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 7:15pm
Ah well poor Bill won't get laid any time soon, unless he pulls old stunts
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 7:30pm
A new outlook on the world front..and about time..
------------- The People Protest
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Posted By: widerange
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 8:32pm
wonder if he makes good on his promise to throw hillary in jail
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 8:37pm
The Don is in
Posted By: MATTOO
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 8:41pm
Yahoo,
Trump needs correction.
But the people need to rid career politicians.
Hope the people win and the trump can step up.
------------- Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 8:54pm
"Hillary" your fired
Posted By: Bossco
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 9:33pm
MATTOO wrote:
Hope the people win and the trump can step up.
He's going to have to step up after he gets through his fraud trial in November where it's alleged he ripped off thousands of said people, by running a bait and switch scam university.
But maybe the Universe will be turned on it's head and a corrupt businessman will become an 'honest' politician.
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 9:38pm
Like one American said. "He may not be the right man to preach the message, however he is preaching the right message". Apparently the majority wanted to hear that message. Also bear in mind, nuch like here, the media is owned and controled by big money. Many outlets in the States did exactly what was done here. Kept on saying Clinton was a shoe in. in the hopes many would not bother voting. That sort of tactic works well in NZ. It seems this time in the States it did not work. There may still be hope for us down under. By the way, the National Party used the American elections as a distraction/cover to reach another shonky back door deal with the Maori party in regards the the RMA. Those via an accident of birth will now have even more say over what the rest of NZ does. Not to mention the pay packets for doing nothing. Perhaps this is an example of why the Don got the nod. Back door dealls done by dodgy politicians to get dodgy legislation passed. The times, they are a changing. However, as usual, good old NZ is approximately twenty years behind the rest of the world.
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 10:00pm
I can't believe that anyone really thinks DT will do what he has been saying. And if he does do some of it we will have a world heading for war. Who the hell wins then??? They say history often repeats. Have a read about why we have had world wars and then line up those reasons with DT's rhetoric. He preached any message he could dream up to appeal to a section of disenchanted voters, but there is no way his party is going to approve a lot of what he gained his votes on. What they may approve is all the stuff that the disenchanted voters really hate but DT failed to mention. We are talking about a very right wing president who got his extra votes from a lot of poor, 'disadvantaged' people by promising what he will never deliver without creating much bigger issues than the ones he was supposed to fix. This will be a one term presidency if we all survive that long.
No issue with seeing HC not get in, but DT for president??? You have to be brain dead to not see what a mess that is going to be.
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 10:30pm
If you are any sort of student of history, how many major and how many minor wars can you see starting if DT carries through on the promises listed in this article?
That's not to say that some of these things may have a little bit of popular appeal and shouldn't be addressed, just that if DT is not prevented from implementing them in the ways that he has promised to collect his votes, the US and much of the world are going to be in deep ****.
Posted By: smudge
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 11:25pm
Let them fight Dave. It really seems to me there needs to be some culling in the USA.
------------- Best gurnard fisherman in my street
Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 6:54am
Interesting comments here - plenty to watch next few months/years - seems like the Western democratic ideals have had their day and world politics may be shifting to right? On the other hand may be different folks at the helm but same old same old...
Not sure what effect will have on world trade and NZ but we will adapt we have to, but even more people may want to come here now!
I imagine a lot of US allies including Australia are feeling nervous.
------------- Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
Posted By: the angler
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 7:09am
News just in - trump has just shot Hillary point blank in the head and taken the vote away from woman .
Posted By: Bossco
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 8:48am
Tagit wrote:
. He preached any message he could dream up to appeal to a section of disenchanted voters,
This is exactly it.
But the only upside, is that he himself doesn't believe in the messages he was selling them, just look at his history he's been anti-gun, pro abortion and identified as a democrat in the past.
He just looked at it like a business deal, and just like his scam "University" he's sold them a product full of promises and assurances of 'greatness', and now that he's taken their money, he has no intention of delivering on those promises.
Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 9:15am
Bossco wrote:
He just looked at it like a business deal, and just like his scam "University" he's sold them a product full of promises and assurances of 'greatness', and now that he's taken their money, he has no intention of delivering on those promises.
For someone with no political history he seems to have got the hang of it quite quickly. Isn't that exactly what every politician has always done -made promises during the election they know they will never deliver.
I'm puzzled why the world is so shocked he won, the signs were there and easy to read before the election -people just didn't want to admit it could happen.
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 9:18am
That is totally true Bossco. i four years will there be a trillion dollar wall along the Mexican border? No. Will Muslims in American have to all be security cleared and be registered? Geeeez, I hope not. Scarey times, about the only candidate worse than Clinton I think would be trump. Cruz was as bad as Clinton.if Trump does cause a disaster, what the hell will the yanks go for next? I think it is human nature, for so long we have had things so good, we have forgotten that our first world problems are very minor issues compared to true hardships of conflict and true poverty, (such as depression era type poverty, not the artificial and ridiculous "poverty" assessment bandied about these days) issues "the establishment" has evolved to cope with, to provide stability and as much prosperity as can be achieved. The desire to shake this all up in the expectation that this will somehow make things even better, and not disastrously worse, puzzles me.
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 9:27am
"and now that he's taken their money, he has no intention of delivering on those promises".
does any Politician really deliver on his promises...they get into power and step in the quicksand on day one ... brain fade and cant recalls are the norm at least here in NZ lol..
Yes they are headed in a new Direction ..lets hope no more wars but ....
“We’re at War!” — And We Have Been Since 1776: 214 Years of American War-Making
------------- The People Protest
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Posted By: Fraser Hocks
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 10:51am
Ah lets look at this as history predicts the future. Sure he has won the election, but he has no idea or intention of running the county, he just wanted to win the election. Kid in a play ground style.
My guess is that he will get in. Run with it for about 2 months before he releases that its a lot more work then he had though. Come out with some dumb ass excuse that he needs to focus more on his empire or some other lame ass excuse and someone else will have to mop up his mess.
On the plus side we are going to have access to some real cheap fishing tackle from the US!
Posted By: Fraser Hocks
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 10:54am
Im guessing his swearing in will be pretty much an exact repeat of this?
Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 1:09pm
I'm quite interested where you guys get trump will be world war from. Hillary was guaranteed world war. Mainstream media ? Trump more likely to cause Civil war than anything. He will also be well muzzled from day dot... Don't get me wrong he is a complete clown. but she is far worse.
I'd rather Trump than clinton and rather someone else than either. Russia were already readying themselves for the Clinton rein. They were recalling russian born people to the fatherland, they have increased their ground troops on borders and have moved ships strategically all around the globe. UN were also readying themselves for defensive counter, have moved far more units to the borders and have also started to move items of devastation around the globe, Puttin ( a nut job himself) stated that a clinton rein would mean WWIII (take from that what you will) . There's a **** tonne more to this than of trump groped some lady by the Pussy. Clinton is a dirty evil moo loo... she is also a sexist but she is feminist sexist... trump evaded taxes. clinton has been done for impeachment, misappropriation of funds. taking bribes and her family is about owning oil, She also lied that she had no involvement of the current no offence stance of the states vs russia. she resigned in 2012 yet the decision was made in 2011 i think.... believing mainstream media in an election is like thinking hobbits and dragons exist. funny how the stuff that counts like russia and UN got pretty much 0 media time. Blurb over...
Posted By: kitno
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 1:12pm
Well said hookerpuka
------------- Top 10 finish 2024 Grunter Hunter.
Posted By: fish i
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 6:34pm
wELL SAID mIKE
------------- 6th place in the inaugural Te Kauwhata Regionals paddle crab division
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 8:04pm
hookerpuka wrote:
I'm quite interested where you guys get trump will be world war from. Hillary was guaranteed world war. Mainstream media ? Trump more likely to cause Civil war than anything. He will also be well muzzled from day dot... Don't get me wrong he is a complete clown. but she is far worse.
<span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb29, 33, 41; : rgb246, 247, 249;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"> I'd rather Trump than clinton and rather someone else than either. Russia were already readying themselves for the Clinton rein. They were recalling russian born people to the fatherland, they have increased their ground troops</span></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb29, 33, 41; : rgb246, 247, 249;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"> on borders and have moved ships strategically all around the globe. UN were also readying themselves for defensive counter, have moved far more units to the borders and have also started to move items of devastation around the globe, Puttin ( a nut job himself) stated that a clinton rein would mean WWIII (take from that what you will) . There's a **** tonne more to this than of trump groped some lady by the Pussy. Clinton is a dirty evil moo loo... she is also a sexist but she is feminist sexist... trump evaded taxes. clinton has been done for impeachment, misappropriation of funds. taking bribes and her family is about owning oil, She also lied that she had no involvement of the current no offence stance of the states vs russia. she resigned in 2012 yet the decision was made in 2011 i think.... believing mainstream media in an election is like thinking hobbits and dragons exist. funny how the stuff that counts like russia and UN got pretty much 0 media time. Blurb over...</span></span></span>
" believing mainstream media in an election is like thinking hobbits and dragons exist" You could be describing NZ media.
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 8:47pm
Just think about it - Trump gets elected on a series of isolationist policies that if followed through will hugely diminish the USA's economic influence around the world, especially in vulnerable poorer nations. So who has lots of money and will pick up the slack - China. They are already doing it and if the US pulls out of that competition!!! Then DT has also apparently given some sort of 'approval' for Russia's invasion of Crimea. Add to that Europe being in political crisis over immigration and Brexit.
So for all the USA's faults, would be prefer a world with a strong democratic USA led flavour or are we quite happy that the USA goes all introvert and leaves Russia and China to take leading roles in how the world operates? It is a case of be very careful what you wish for. When the grass on the other side is just painted green for advertising, it isn't actually greener.
What we can best hope for now is that all DT's crazy policies are just vote grabbers and that it was all just the BS that it appeared to be.
Posted By: Polar_Kiwis
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 8:21am
Went fishing by myself yesterday post Trump election. Man I had the blues out there. Luckily my new Kaveman sliders did the trick. Still caught myself putting rods in rod holders and getting on news websites... Boat caught three fish to my none.
Now time to explain to my teenagers how someone who rants, raves, bullies, threatens and makes big promises can become a leader yet divides a nation. Going to put up a list of his promises on our fridge. Then we can watch how many he really delivers. Good experiment to show that perhaps that this businessman might also be over promising.
Lot of freedom of speech going on with #notmypresident protests.
Farout.
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 9:04am
US politics has become so totally polarised now it is incredible. There would have been equally as large protests had Hillary won, both candidates are so deeply unpopular. I think it is a result of the US's absurdly long elections process, it is the only issue on the media day in and day out for months, hell, years, a constantly divisive, super hyperbolic hate fest that I think just poisons the American people against whichever party they do not vote for. So much misinformation, spin and lying over two solid years just ratchets up hate and disdain among the yanks, white on black on Hispanic, left and right, hard core Christian, Muslim vs sane people and all in all an unending stream of vitriol splitting the people apart. God help America.
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 11:08am
Wall St is up today. Economists are now saying tax cuts are what is needed and Donalds economic stimulus ideas might be just what is needed. He will probably end up being the greatest most loved President ever.
Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 12:05pm
v8-coupe wrote:
" believing mainstream media in an election is like thinking hobbits and dragons exist" You could be describing NZ media.
Pretty much all media mate, NZ media is APN. APN is not NZ... It's more Days of our lives...
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 12:24pm
Capt Asparagus wrote:
US politics has become so totally polarised now it is incredible. There would have been equally as large protests had Hillary won, both candidates are so deeply unpopular. I think it is a result of the US's absurdly long elections process, it is the only issue on the media day in and day out for months, hell, years, a constantly divisive, super hyperbolic hate fest that I think just poisons the American people against whichever party they do not vote for. So much misinformation, spin and lying over two solid years just ratchets up hate and disdain among the yanks, white on black on Hispanic, left and right, hard core Christian, Muslim vs sane people and all in all an unending stream of vitriol splitting the people apart. God help America.
Welcome to the realm of profit driven tabloid media where sensationalism and circulation are the only imperatives. Viewers, readers and clicks are the only things that matter. The truth by itself would never generate a profit so they slant the articles and lead with inflammatory misleading headlines. How many times do we see articles about the same incident, yet each article has different figures in it. They no longer bother with getting things right. Sound bites rule.They just want to be the first into print. See it every day here in Godzone.
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: whippersnappyr
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 10:29pm
Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2016 at 2:10pm
^^ that doesnt work
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2016 at 6:35pm
Neither does Trump as president. Maybe that was the point
Posted By: 3rnzir
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2016 at 8:24pm
Tagit. Chill will ya. Do what your progressive mates in the States do for relief. Grab some 'Rape Don`s wife' placards. And go and vandalism the businesses in your local poor `hood. Lets come back to these posts in 4 years time and assess your end times predictions. If any nation in modern history can re-invent/invigorate itself,my money is on the USA. The Fourth Estate has been an abject failure/traitor to the Western world for the last 20 years now. When the working White man feels the economic/safety squeeze,watch out kids. Shows how powerful the USA is. Everyone else has an opinion on their domestic elections. Unlike say,china,they just mobilise their army,because of the rabid paranoia of it`s leadership. Good to see political input that is not so toxic.
------------- Peace.Via superior firepower..
Posted By: SaltyC
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2016 at 11:59am
I think Peter Thiel pretty much summed why the "media" got this so wrong and where the enormous disconnect is between what the media saw and headlined and what Trump supporters saw and supported:
"I think one thing that should be distinguished here is that the media is always taking Trump literally. It never takes him seriously, but it always takes him literally. ... I think a lot of voters who vote for Trump take Trump seriously but not literally, so when they hear things like the Muslim comment or the wall comment, their question is not, 'Are you going to build a wall like the Great Wall of China?' or, you know, 'How exactly are you going to enforce these tests?' What they hear is we're going to have a saner, more sensible immigration policy."
It is interesting to see people railing against the result but claiming to support democracy - this is democracy in action. I don't know what I would have done had I had a vote in this election, Trumps rhetoric was awful, but Clintons ACTIONS were also horrendous.
And the "Clinton won the popular vote" claims are just nonsense. It was not a "popular vote" election. It was an electoral college election and those voting know that. there is no incentive for voters to turnout in states were the result is beyond dispute before the election, that applies to both Democrat dominated states and Republican dominated states. Lots don't vote because the state will be won by the dominant party anyway. If you want a "popular vote" election, like the Brexit referendum, then you have to run it as such. You cannot later claim to have won the "popular vote" when there simply wasn't one!
Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2016 at 12:40pm
SaltyC
It is interesting to see people railing against the result but claiming to support democracy -
[/QUOTE wrote:
Also interesting exactly who is protesting. Portland police arrested 112 people rioting, of those 60% were
Also interesting exactly who is protesting. Portland police arrested 112 people rioting, of those 60% were from outside the state and of the 112 only 25 were found to have actually voted in the election in Portland. In other words, not actually upset voters, but anarchists and political agitators intent on causing trouble.
Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2016 at 3:59pm
I found these 2 vid's pretty interesting ans shows the influence and decipt held by the media or what ever reasons they may have
https://www.facebook.com/username373/videos/755818418393/ put's into context things that were altered by media to portrait trump badly.
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2016 at 4:58pm
3rnzir wrote:
Tagit. Chill will ya. ...............
I don't have real issue with quite few of DT's more 'challenging' proposals. I just don't get the impression that he is the guy to carry them out without the risk of a major catastrophe.
By all accounts he is already moderating his stance on some of the more unachievable promises, so you are going to end up with a loose unit president and a bunch of dissapointed voters who were expecting him to follow through on his promises. Not the perfect recipe for a stable society. There is real fear that DT is going to 'release' the far right in the US. Find a country anywhere with a truly active far right that is a good world citizen. I guess we will all find out over the next year or two. Putin obviously thinks he has DT sorted out and a few 1000 more Syrians have been killed.
Posted By: 3rnzir
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2016 at 7:54pm
As for those that have said the Don is not fit to govern? Wrong. The Don beat 16 GOP candidates. In what is the most grueling selection process in the Western world. On a fraction of the budget of others(bodes well fiscally if Congress complies). As far as starting all sorts of imaginary wars,the current administration is not exactly squeaky clean,now is it? A super power will always be engaged in conflict at any time,usually. If you are over say,35,then you can see the MSM(Main Stream Media) is a biased disgrace to democracy. Fortunately other mediums are available to offer balance. The Don refreshingly seldom watered down any of his main campaigning points. Unpopular with some yes. Refreshing none the less,for sticking with his power points. So,no surprises,should these election pledges become policy. The 3 levels of the USA Govt have the checks and balances the have served Her well for 240 years. The next President will operate within the same confines. Cheerz
------------- Peace.Via superior firepower..
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2016 at 1:36pm
Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2016 at 9:19pm
Well Trump has been elected for a while and the world carries on as normal. I now think i know why he was voted in. It goes like this.
" There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for and why it is here ,it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."
The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. (the book ) Douglas Adams.
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2016 at 10:13am
....or we are now through the looking glass. What gets me is that barely half the voters in the states bothered to vote, and close as dammit Clinton and trump got an even split of those, so 25% each roughly. If the yanks can't be bothered to get off their arses to vote, then sorry, they can darn well get what they deserve. No sympathy.
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Posted By: puff
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2016 at 3:17pm
Why would u bother to vote, both are clowns, and no election promises ever come true..... I have never been in a balloting box my whole life for the same reason.... biggest waste of time and energy imho
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2016 at 7:59pm
He's not even in the damn office yet and he is already trying to set up world war 3 with China. I don't actually mind that he is talking to Taiwan, but what a idiot way to start his relationship with the worlds second biggest superpower.
Posted By: Bounty Hunter
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2016 at 9:29pm
many dont bother to vote because it doesnt make a difference in the outcome.
many states are so strongly either Rep or Dem and if you aint of the same persuasion your vote isnt going to influence the result in the state. Winning the most states is what wins the presidency, not how many votes overall.
Only the 'swing' states is it important that the candidate secures the most votes.
------------- No disintegrations!
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2016 at 11:19am
Tagit wrote:
I can't believe that anyone really thinks DT will do what he has been saying.
He preached any message he could dream up to appeal to a section of disenchanted voters.
We are talking about a very right wing president who got his extra votes from a lot of poor, 'disadvantaged' people by promising what he will never deliver
Who cares if I p!ss off China. I am Donald Damn Trump and it is my god given right to say whatever I like without thinking about it first. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11759931" rel="nofollow - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11759931
Still, he must be the best option. After all, nearly as many people supported him as supported Hillary.
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2016 at 6:33pm
Or as I said way back before the election the only way he will get in is if people dont vote or vote an independent rather than making a vote count for the best of the 2 evils... Hillary got the popular vote, jusy not enough where it mattered
Anyone following his cabinet choice and backgrounds.. thats getting a little scarry both internal and foreign affairs. Time will tell Amereica burps NZ gets hit harder if one goes thru the history books
Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2016 at 5:53am
Glad I don't live there - at least it is interesting to watch from a distance - I hope Trump surprises us all but don't expect so - sounds like rather than draining swap all the animals have moved to another one setup by Trump and his company!
------------- Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2016 at 8:42am
We dont watch the US from a distance... populist protectionist policies of the US after the 29 crash resulted in world wide collapse after the 29 crash.. If it was not for the commonweath and empire trade agreements, we where hit hard, but they got us thru better than most of the rest of the world and sooner. The 70s/ 80s high interest rates inflation was on the back of American economy.. "imported inflation" muldoons protectionism didnt help any either towards the end. the 80s boom and bust was on the back of american speculation... 2007 was on the back of the American sub prime rort
wholesale rates have been moving very slowly up for a little while now, and right now that rate of increase is showing consistent steepening... most banks have increased 3 to 5 yr interest rate several times in the last 4 weeks. These movements may not be because of Trump as been historically cyclic... but if he handles them as a business man who loves debit, or as a president of his country with reflection on the rest of the world is of concern... Business loves inflation to reduce debit, which means can increase further... America close doors on China.. china slows our exports drop in volume and returns being a very very small player on the world economies.
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2016 at 9:36am
Why are people afraid of "Trump"hes just one man,cannot dictate that I am going to do this or that,everything must pass the senate.Just like our PM cannot raise gst to 30% on his own needs the house to do it.
What has Obama achieved??What would of "Hillary"achieve??
Posted By: Steps
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2016 at 4:40pm
So who was in the senate when bush number 2 decided to go into iraq on the BS WMD crap? and what party was Bush? And why did the US run out of money 2 .. think 3 times sending public servants home because no wage in the bank in obamas reign Democrat.. oh yeah the senate would not pas the bill.. and who was in senate to screw that up? And why has so much of what he wanted to do stone walled ?
And who is in the senate and congress now? and so many democrats lost their sets.. and the new republicans who took them... strong arm trump supporters
Yep is about things passing thru the upper and low houses... and if the President is of a different party to them.. hands tied If not...its all on. just go back thru administrations.. those that 'achieved'.. be it good and bad.. Johnson, nixon, regan. And how the mccarthy witch hunt itswith notorious peak after Truman lost and Rep eisenhower was President.
have senate/ congress and the president all in the same party, damn near every time the proverbial hits the fan... world wide
Posted By: Martini Max
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2016 at 8:27pm
Funny tho'; Watch out! the sky is gonna fall on our heads. Where have all the "pop" stars and other dicks who have said " if Trump wins, I'm leaving the country?... the waves are nearing the edge of the teacup... He'll be on a steep learning curve I'd suggest, purely on the bureaucracy that will surround him. Funny tho', those who are against the TPP are against him, as the pundits suggest he'll not be a part of it... so one would think they'd be rejoicing. Are they? So more Chinese involvement and money in the South Pacific ....fisheries for "development" as they are doing now...Yep, that'll be good.
-------------
"I do nothing..I do it well.. I then move on to doing more of nothing"
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 9:57am
So who is feeling reassured by DT's mind changing, back tracking, p!ss off everyone, wild accusations, $1B of debt, appointing family to senior positions etc etc? Just imagine how good it will be when he actually gets into office.
The latest one made me laugh - First DT was going to build a wall between the US and Mexico and Mexico were going to pay for it (many, many $billions apparently). Now he is going to ask congress for the money and apparently 'Mexico will pay for it later' according to DT. Immigration is a hot topic so not surprising he went all 'right wing' on it as a vote catcher, but a bit damning when he now tells the US people that they are going to have to fork out all that money when he promised them they wouldn't have to. The guy seems to just shoot from the hip and say whatever he thinks people want to hear to get their support. I guess they all do it to some extent, but this guy is just so bloody obvious that it's embarrassing to think that he gets away with it.
Posted By: mowerman
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 11:38am
They all get away with it ...Look at our government >. The flag ( i wont mention names ) we all paid for that
------------- The People Protest
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 12:33pm
Tagit,trumps a pollitician after all,doing what they do best,lie
Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 1:32pm
Trump was inevitable and we are just going to have to see what happens.
This was not an election ,it was an uprising. It was about the white working class who had been overlooked and trampled on for so long. They could not change anything, & they had been told that so many times before. The people who were always wrong.So many times they had been told to adapt to the inevitable. Their world belonged to the metro sexuals,the dotcoms and Wall st. They were tired of their jobs being shipped off to some foreign country,tired of Obama care,tired of unemployment,tired of watching their sons come home in coffins from some foreign war. Tired of being lied to, & they were tired of seeing their towns fill with migrants. They were tired of seeing their America disappear .
They were fathers who couldnt feed their families anymore,mothers who couldnt afford healthcare,workers whose jobs were sold to foreign countries ,whose sons and daughters saw no future. They were the people who didnt matter and couldnt change anything. They put up their hands, and from coast to coast the nation joined with them, they said no and the impossible happened. The great blue wall crumbled. And as Hillary prepared her victory celebrations the impossible states fell one by one. Ohio,,wisconsin,iowa, pennsylvania---
And now we have Trump. A rejection of globalization ,and a follow up to the mood of Brexit,and a precursor to what is begining in Europe.
There is now a different drum beginning to beat across the world.
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 1:50pm
Disagree with...yep, pretty much all of that.
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.
Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.
Posted By: MacSkipper
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 2:35pm
Going to be am interesting year....
------------- Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
Posted By: 3rnzir
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 10:59am
Cirrus Agree yep...with pretty much all of that. Like many in the West now,people are no longer afraid of being labeled whatever phobe the left throws at one for disagreeing with their narrative. The Marxist PC tide is on the wane.
------------- Peace.Via superior firepower..
Posted By: v8-coupe
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 12:39pm
cirrus wrote:
Trump was inevitable and we are just going to have to see what happens.
This was not an election ,it was an uprising. It was about the white working class who had been overlooked and trampled on for so long. They could not change anything, & they had been told that so many times before. The people who were always wrong.So many times they had been told to adapt to the inevitable. Their world belonged to the metro sexuals,the dotcoms and wall st. They were tired of their jobs being shipped off to some foreign country,tired of Obama care,tired of unemployment,tired of watching their sons come home in coffins from some foreign war. Tired of being lied to, & they were tired of seeing their towns fill with migrants. They were tired of seeing their America disappear .
They were fathers who couldnt feed their families anymore,mothers who couldnt afford healthcare,workers whose jobs were sold to foreign countries ,whose sons and daughters saw no future. They were the people who didnt matter and couldnt change anything. They put up their hands, and from coast to coast the nation joined with them, they said no and the impossible happened. The great blue wall crumbled. And as Hillary prepared her victory celebrations the impossible states fell one by one. Ohio,,wisconsin,iowa, pennsylvania---
And now we have Trump. A rejection of globalization ,and a follow up to the mood of Brexit,and a precursor to what is begining in Europe.
There is now a different drum beginning to beat across the world.
"There is now a different drum beginning to beat across the world". Yup, and its about bloody time.
------------- Legasea Legend Member
Posted By: 3rnzir
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 8:15pm
And is it any wonder the the MSM is held in a all time distrust by most adults? Embedded with any left wing govt in the West. The globalist MSM has not been impartial for nigh on 25 years now. Thank goodness for other digital media to give us balance and check the veracity of dinosaur MSM claims. The new 5th Estate. Seems to be more than a few on this thread that still have the MSM narrative as their main source for the `facts`. Lets just give DJT a term to see what his team can achieve. 1st admin since 1929 to have such control of the Senate,Congress and the vast majority of State Governorship's. The popular vote line the MSM keep pushing,has been skewed by sanctuary States giving many of the nearly 30 million illegal aliens,the option to vote. Take those numbers out. And this is a landslide vote for change by the real/legal USA voting public. For the Dems to loose heartland unionised industrial Great Lake States is a fair reflection or how Middle America feels today. DJT seems to have the big boys lining up to create good paying jobs in the USA. We will see soon enough how this transpires. Will DJT get a Nobel Peace Prize for the colour of his hair,perhaps? BHO got one for the colour of his skin in 2009. Cringe worthy.
------------- Peace.Via superior firepower..
Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 10:13am
Main stream media. They print selected opinion,little fact unless after a major event. No surprize as to who owns the mainstream media. Very powerful individuals,vested interest.
Right up to the election they said Trump could not win. The articles were so tedious they became tranquilizing Their polls said likewise. Trump could not win. They were wrong. And to achieve this, the endless barrage of anti trump rhetoric was blatant . What they feared most came upon them.
And now the anti trump fear mongering continues at even greater intensity. So what is it the invisible people behind the MSM have to lose.
The anti trump media is something no president ,or America has seen before. And this is hugely concerning for everyone, as the pressure and condemnation upon him and his future government mounts. All about things that have not happened,like war with Russia or China. All fear. The world is ruled by fear. Downside of such pressure on Trump is that under intense pressure people make mistakes, and if this were to happen would they blame Trump or themselves.
Trump has not started any wars,ironic as the previous admins started many,but prefer not to talk about that.
Tariffs on Chinas products could start a trade war,and sometimes trade wars do lead to real wars. Or his wanting to improve relations with Russia could be taken as weakness and lead to a Russian invasion of the Baltics,Finland and much of the former soviet union.
Or the latest is his getting tough over the disputed islands in the South China sea,could involve Australia and even N.Z in a dispute or war with China. Hasnt happened yet. So why is the MSM pushing this speculation and fear mongering. Whats their game . Who are the invisible people behind this. What is it they fear to lose.
Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 10:37am
Unless you are questioning the truth of the quotes, the media is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Reporting what Trump and his aides are doing and saying. They then publish the potential implications of those actions and statements. That is again a normal media role. Are the articles over dramatised in some cases? Maybe, but that is again very normal within the media as it sells copies to the majority of the population who wouldn't bother reading an article without some sort of dramatisation to catch their interest. It isn't US media publishing the Chinese governments reactions though. That is the Chinese media which is controlled by the Chinese government. Same with any Russian media publications.
Trump appears to be a horribly loose cannon who is surrounding himself with guys who like to fire cannons. I find the whole thing very scary for the world. Do I agree with the general concepts of creating more jobs within the USA and controlling immigration? If I lived in the US I probably would. Trouble is, those are key issues that if mismanaged could lead to wars. They are both issues that support the development of the 'have' and 'have not' differences in this world, so Trumps argument is that he will make the US richer by denying access to other countries. That will have consequences somewhere.
I actually can't think of an easy answer to the immigration and trade issues that the US faces, but I suspect any true answer would involve a whole heap of careful diplomacy enacted over a long period. Trumps popularist vote catching through an incredibly antagonistic and cavalier approach to the rest of the world just looks bloody scary to me.
Posted By: 3rnzir
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 11:03am
Seems BHO `civilian` leadership team had no issues firing plenty of cannons(drone strikes) over the last 8 years. Nice to see BHO is finally emptying out GITMO. Looks like CNN will get a taste of what Fox has had over the last 8 years. The lack of USA foreign policy muscle has emboldened issues from the South China Sea,Syria,Iran. The `Red line in the sand` rhetoric without real military intent of force,from this admin has made the world less safe. The most useless/dangerous President in modern USA history. Aided buy a sycophantic media(mostly). Of course,now a Republican President is about to enter office,the above MSM will re-start asking the `Hard questions` of the new admin. As per their 1st Amendment duty demands. Phwwttt.Riiight.
------------- Peace.Via superior firepower..
Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 2:49pm
Cirrus, trump isn't actually president yet....that happens on Friday. So ww3 is scheduled for Saturday I guess. Perhaps.
------------- It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.