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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote brmbrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2023 at 10:33am
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Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

[QUOTE=MB][QUOTE=Fish Addict]Don't get me started on scientists, especially those of the climate variety.  One of the biggest cons the world has ever seen, all thanks to the UN.

Says someone typing on a computer, using the internet, mobile phone etc when they don't know how any of them work.  Hilarious.  (By the way, I am a now-retired scientist, still waiting for my first payment from the UN...)


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2023 at 11:37am
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On the first page it does mention we maybe surprised.yep releasing is a feel good only legal keep it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2023 at 7:14pm
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Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

On the first page it does mention we maybe surprised.yep releasing is a feel good only legal keep it.
Not sure you're right there Paul. As an example, for a lip-hooked fish the chance of survival up to 20m appears to be around 80% unless I've missed something. The chance of survival if you get an iki spike in the head and biffed in a chilly-bin are zero so odds-on for going back in the water and that's quite consistent with some of the Aussie research I've seen over the last few years.

The points raised re handling are absolutely on the money as poor-handling techniques are undoubtedly a major factor in survival rates - damaged gills, etc.  I'm not a fan of venting purely because the thought of some clown with a sharp needle taking a few wild stabs at the gut of a fish doesn't seem like it'll end well if you're on the receiving end. Maybe if you know what you're doing then it's an option but given the number of iki'd fish I've seen still flopping around in a chilly bin, the finesse and skill level possibly is beyond some people. 

Getting a snapper back to a depth where it can re-pressurise with a weight and a simple rig is easy and effective - we have one on the NZ Fishing News project boat which is essentially a 'puka weight on a handline and it works fine. The main reason I'll release a larger fish (when the depth and condition align for snapper in particular) is to look after the gene pool. 

Big healthy fish pass on big healthy fish genes and in my view that's a good option as we all want of more of those fish in our inshore fisheries don't we?

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I wonder with the gut hooked fish if they left the hook in there or ripped it out. I've caught a few with well rusted hooks still inside and they seamed to be doing well. Interesting for sure, tiz why I record and tag most of the ones I put back. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 1:13pm
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Originally posted by Grunta Grunta wrote:

Originally posted by Pcj Pcj wrote:

On the first page it does mention we maybe surprised.yep releasing is a feel good only legal keep it.
Not sure you're right there Paul...
prolific breeders are the 29/35cm snapper the 15 lb lbers are not prolific nor is there such a thing as gene pool.the big snapper are moochers/territorial. Can supply details on Tuesday when I get home. What advocacy are promoting is incorrect.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 7:07pm
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Hmm - well there certainly is such a thing a a gene pool and it applies to snapper and other fish species as well as humans strangely. It's well documented that larger snapper and older fish tend to produce more eggs than younger ones. The relationship is not necessarily linear or proportional to size, as reproductive success can vary with factors like environmental conditions and nutrition, reproductive condition, and genetics also influence fecundity.

Have a read of this article Paul as it's quite relevant - by Anna Blair who did a Masters at Otago Uni majoring in genetics. Be interested in what other data/research you have too.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 7:43pm
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I agree with Grunta (you sycophant Smudge) in that most people can't iki a fish let alone puncture it's swim bladder effectively. I've seen plenty pop that bubble that sticks out its mouth - which is not its swim bladder and I admit I've done that before because I thought it was the right thing to do.

I've also released plenty of snapper in deep water that have shown no signs of being 'blown' that have headed straight on down.

As for the big fish genes, I'm a fence sitter there simply because if there is such a thing (I don't have to agree with everything Grunta says :) ) then clearly the big fish have it. Of course all big fish were once little fish too but we can't tell if that 27 to 70cm  snapper has those genes. 

Here's another one, most of these debates revolve around snapper. I've never seen a 'blown' kahawai or kingfish, Jack mackerel, tuna, marlin etc. It's predominately the demersal fish that have these problems but not always. Snapper & gurnard are especially prone but other demurrals such as spiny dogfish, of which I've caught at least two billion (you're exaggerating again Smudge) don't get blown. I've also seen crayfish caught in 50m still looking healthy as

Random musings but everyone seems to only think this is a snapper problem. Hapuku seem to be affected pretty badly too but then again I've yet to catch a snapper in 300m
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fish Addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 8:21pm
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Just to add to your last comment there smudge I've caught snapper (as by-catch) over here in 220-240m.  These show no signs of barotrauma and they go like scolded cats straight down when released.  Fish are generally in the 3-4kg range.  Do they survive?  I have no idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 9:11pm
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Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Here's another one, most of these debates revolve around snapper. I've never seen a 'blown' kahawai or kingfish, Jack mackerel, tuna, marlin etc. It's predominately the demersal fish that have these problems but not always. Snapper & gurnard are especially prone but other demurrals such as spiny dogfish, of which I've caught at least two billion (you're exaggerating again Smudge) don't get blown. I've also seen crayfish caught in 50m still looking healthy as 
It's a swim bladder issue. Kingfish and I assume other pelagic fish have swim bladders adapted to rapid changes in pressure. If you've been diving and seen a kingfish hunting, it makes sense. 30 to 5 metres in a second. Crayfish and shark species don't have a swim bladder, so no problem.
Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Random musings but everyone seems to only think this is a snapper problem. Hapuku seem to be affected pretty badly too but then again I've yet to catch a snapper in 300m.
Does anyone release hapuka? LOL

My own musing. What I've seen time and again is that bigger snapper suffer barotrauma to a much greater degree than smaller fish. Apart from being annoying, I've never heard an explanation or anyone else talk about it. You have to factor in length of fight, i.e. bigger fish will have a longer flight and may be exhausted from the fight itself and therefore more likely to die, but you would have thought a longer fight would mean a slower ascent and less barotrauma?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Fish Addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 9:42pm
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I agree MB, the larger snapper appear to be more susceptible to the effects of barotrauma for whatever reason.  Other demersal species we have in the <4kg weight range are far more prone to barotrauma than snapper.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote krow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 7:24pm
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If I'm in 35+m and expect to release the snapper I am winding in I try to pause at 5-10 or so meters from the surface. Easy enough with multi coloured braid or as soon as I see colour. I wait till I see bubbles and this indicates the fish has degassed and if released has no trouble descending. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 4:43am
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Originally posted by Grunta Grunta wrote:

Hmm - well there certainly is such a thing a a gene pool and it applies to snapper and other fish species as well as humans strangely. It's well documented that l<span style="font-size: 12px;">arger snapper and older fish tend to produce more eggs than younger ones. The relationship is not necessarily linear or proportional to size, as reproductive success can vary with factors like environmental conditions and </span>nutrition, reproductive condition, and genetics also influence fecundity.

Have a read of this article Paul as it's quite relevant - by Anna Blair who did a Masters at Otago Uni majoring in genetics. Be interested in what other data/research you have too.
yes have had a read.And this far different from what John Holdsworthy wrote back around 2012/14 When a few of us on here raised same issue. You know Blue water marine research who were advisors to legasea at the time. But he also dismissed barotrauma in snapper when I posted a video from Aussie snapper.So maybe you are correct and I should dismiss John's comments??
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Phantom Menace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 9:29am
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Originally posted by krow krow wrote:

If I'm in 35+m and expect to release the snapper I am winding in I try to pause at 5-10 or so meters from the surface. Easy enough with multi coloured braid or as soon as I see colour. I wait till I see bubbles and this indicates the fish has degassed and if released has no trouble descending. 

That is sensible Krow.  The killer here is volume change.  Those of you who dive will know that every 10m of water puts another atmospheres pressure on the body and any gas spaces.  Net result is that the largest volume change is close to the surface.  Going from 10m to the surface the volume of any gas spaces will double (Going from 20m to 10m depth the volume increases by two thirds).
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 7:01pm
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Originally posted by Phantom Menace Phantom Menace wrote:

Originally posted by krow krow wrote:

If I'm in 35+m and expect to release the snapper I am winding in I try to pause at 5-10 or so meters from the surface. Easy enough with multi coloured braid or as soon as I see colour. I wait till I see bubbles and this indicates the fish has degassed and if released has no trouble descending. 

That is sensible Krow.  The killer here is volume change.  Those of you who dive will know that every 10m of water puts another atmospheres pressure on the body and any gas spaces.  Net result is that the largest volume change is close to the surface.  Going from 10m to the surface the volume of any gas spaces will double (Going from 20m to 10m depth the volume increases by two thirds).

Wow, I didn't know that
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Yep every 10m = 1 extra atmosphere (I dive too).
10m to surface pressure change is 100%
100m to 90m is still a 10m change but the change in pressure is 10%

Puka fishing I've noticed they put up the last hurrah desperate struggle at around the 100m mark and I'm guessing that's when they start to get blown. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 9:26pm
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Originally posted by krow krow wrote:

Yep every 10m = 1 extra atmosphere (I dive too).
10m to surface pressure change is 100%
100m to 90m is still a 10m change but the change in pressure is 10%

Puka fishing I've noticed they put up the last hurrah desperate struggle at around the 100m mark and I'm guessing that's when they start to get blown. 

Thanks Krow. I wonder if there's a relationship between that 10 metre thing and the results that PCJ posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2023 at 10:16am
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Couple of technical corrections from the physics police here guys.

[Phantom Menace]
Going from 20m to 10m depth the volume increases by two thirds
Increases by half not 2/3. 

[krow]
100m to 90m is still a 10m change but the change in pressure is 10%
Getting picky here but it's 1/11th - about 9%

[krow]
I wait till I see bubbles and this indicates the fish has degassed
That's the swim bladder bursting. Controlled degassing by the fish takes time, as the oxygen has to be re-absorbed into the bloodstream. Probably better to take those ones home.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote krow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2023 at 8:22pm
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Thanks for the corrections. Maths was a long time ago for me. 

I might have to disagree on that one though. If you keep winding to the surface the swim bladder or stomach stays inflated and the fish cannot descend but pause and let it degas itself and it's much more alive/active and will swim off (down) strongly. If it was the bladder busting then why would it not be more likely to do so as meets the surface? Interesting I guess more research required.   
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Phantom Menace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2023 at 8:39am
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Yeah -I got it wrong ... (which is a little embarrassing)
It was the Law of the Sea, they said. Civilization ends at the waterline. Beyond that, we all enter the food chain, and not always right at the top.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2023 at 5:48pm
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Originally posted by Phantom Menace Phantom Menace wrote:

Yeah -I got it wrong ... (which is a little embarrassing)

Don't be embarrassed Phantom, we all get it a little wrong at times 

Hug
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